Reading Comprehension: A Terrible Thing To Waste
from the venting dept
Nearly four years ago, Amazon.com announced its Amazon Prime shipping club. The idea was that high volume users of the site could sign up, pay $79/year, and get free two-day shipping. I don't buy enough (or enough that I need quickly) from Amazon to make this worthwhile for me, but some friends use it and like it. When it launched, we wrote about it. No big deal.In 2007, some people who somehow signed up for the program without meaning to, started Google searching the program -- and commenting on that post, often complaining that they were signed up against their will. In April of 2007, one person noted that the charge on his credit card was denoted as being for AMZ*Prime Club. Within days, if you did a search on that phrase, we were the top result. At first, our comments started to fill up with angry messages from people who claim they never agreed to sign up for the program. Then... people started emailing and calling us demanding a refund. For a while it was a deluge of calls and emails, leading me to write a post warning Amazon that it was clear to us that many, many people were confused by the way they explained the Amazon Prime offering. That was because Amazon offered people a "free month" trial of Amazon Prime, after which they would be automatically charged the $79. Many people apparently signed up for the free month, and failed to read the details.
This continued for many months, and we ended up writing a second open letter to Amazon, pointing out that whether they knew it or not, an awful lot of people were confused and all of them seemed to be blaming us for the confusion. It was becoming quite a nuisance dealing with the various calls and emails. Some people in our comments noted Amazon was quite straightforward in how they described the details of the program, and we were wrong to tell them that it was too confusing. That may be so, but I can assure you that there are an awful lot of people who still don't understand the details of the program.
It has continued to this very day -- though we tend to only get two to three emails and calls per week nowadays, as opposed to the multiple complaints per day. To be honest, we've taken to ignoring most of the calls and emails, because it's just not worth responding. There was one very confused older woman who called a bunch of times, and we just had to help her because she sounded so distressed, but for the most part, we let them go. Until... this week.
I'm not sure why, but I was glancing at the customer service email account the other night when one such email came in. It read:
Subject: refund my $79.-- immediately [CustomerService]I was going to just ignore it, but since the woman seemed to realize that the problem was with Amazon, and it only took a second, I figured I'd email her back a quick note:
------ Comments ------
I ordered some things from Amazon (for the last time, believe me) before Christmas. When I went on line tonight to check my bank balance I discovered that $79.00 had been deducted from my checking account withut my permission or prior warning. This is certainly not the way to get and keep customers. I want the money credited back to my account immediately, please. I do not remember anywhere on your website where it asked if I was willing to participate in this program. If there had been, I would have said NO!
I will be expecting an e-mail from you tomorrow. My cell phone is broken and I am waiting for a new one to be shipped to me which should take about a week. I certainly do not hope that I have to speak with you about this again.
Perhaps you should try contacting Amazon instead of us?Simple, to the point... I thought I was being helpful. The woman clearly saw the email, because she replied immediately to me... but it was a blank email, other than her signature being appended above my response to her. I thought it was odd, but let it go, figuring it was an accidental reply (or maybe she even meant to say thanks for sending her in the right direction). The next morning, we received another feedback form message from the same woman:
Subject: need money put back into my checking account [CustomerService]Now, at this point, it's obvious the woman is lying. She had emailed us the night before about it, recognizing that it was a charge from Amazon and not Techdirt. This was confusing, but maybe (maybe?!) she was just confused. So, I tried to be helpful:
------ Comments ------
This morning as I was checking my bank, I realized that your organization had debited $79.00 from my checking account for something called : "tech dirt". This simply looks like current events. I am not interested in it and need to have the $79.00 redeposited into my husband's and my checking account immediately before we become overdrawn. I can be reached at my e-mail today - my cell phone broke and I am waiting for a new one to be shipped to me.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
I am afraid you are confused. We do not charge people anything. We do not even have a merchant account with which to charge you. From your *other* email last night, it seems clear that it is Amazon.com that charged you for their Amazon Prime service, which costs $79. Please contact Amazon to have them take care of it:Ok. I figured we were all done with things. But... a day and a half goes by and suddenly:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=518316
Thanks,
Mike
Subject: $79.00 refund [CustomerService]Hmm. Ok. Perhaps my emails to her went into her spam filter...? Even though she had actually replied (blankly) to that first one? I gave it one more shot:
------ Comments ------
I truly do not remember authorizing you to take $79.00 from my checking account using my bank card. I simply would not have approved of that high a debit. While I am sure your web-site is a good one, it's a site in which I have no interest.
Because of that I am asking for a refund of the $79.00 as soon as possible. Unfortunately, my cell phone broke the other day and it will still be a few days until my new one gets here. The only way you can communicate with me is through e-mail: [email address deleted]
Hi [name deleted],Five minutes later, she replies:
This is your third email to us. We have replied to each of the first two -- including the original one where you properly noticed that it was Amazon that had charged you -- not us, so I am somewhat confused as to why you are now saying we charged you. We are a publication that merely wrote about Amazon's program. We do not even have the ability to charge credit cards.
Your problem is with Amazon.com and you should probably contact them.
Thanks,
Mike
How the hell do I contact Amazon - it seems to me that you and Amazon are probably working in collusion to fleece people.And... with that I give up. Apparently, it wouldn't matter how clearly Amazon explains their program. There are still some people who will not be able to figure it out.
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Filed Under: amazon prime, reading comprehension
Companies: amazon
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All too common
Not a day goes by that I don't miss retail...
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Re: All too common
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Re: Re: All too common
Ever submit anything to NotAlwaysRight.com? ;)
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I don't know what kind of woman that is, but she needs a good shaking. And just remember, she's probably driving a car on the road, as oblivious to the rules and other drivers as she was to your simple point.
Terrifying idiot.
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I hope she sues
Actually Mike, if she's stupid enough to sue Techdirt, I can't think of a better way to prove your point.
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lovely.
Mike, you were MORE than fair. Bravos and may she be hit with an intelligence stick sometime in the near future.
Hopefully, repeatedly.
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Robots are coming
PS, seriously, I need my $79 back...
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To contact Amazon, use this link:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=518316
I know you already sent it to her. Doesn't matter. Once a person stops accusing and actually asks a question, answer the question without offering additional information.
I say this as a Help Desk person that deals with folks like this every day. They will always blame you and not Amazaon, that cannot be changed. However, since they finally got around to askign a simple question, a simple answer can be effective.
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Re:
1) Help/Support desks blatantly ignore information you provided. If you say "I tried rebooting my computer first", after three days, they'll write back and ask "Have you tried rebooting your computer?" and then add in the infuriating "It's been a pleasure helping you" type comment.
2) Help/Support desks blatantly ignore any question after the first one. You have three questions about a similar topic? Forget it. They'll "answer" the first and ignore the rest. And don't even think about trying a "If the answer to question 1 is No, then what about...?" type question.
Sure, there are probably a different set of reasons for this type of issue than the Refund-My-$79 lady, but the problem of lack of reading comprehension exists from both angles.
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Re:
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Re: Failure to comprehend
To start the process of getting your refund, click here.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=518316
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[many] People are idiots.
And me. ;)
Now, please give me my refund of $79 immediately, despite not being charged by Amazon or Techdirt.
I'll choose (looks at last online purchase)...
...oh. It was Amazon.
Place my refund here →
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Re: [many] People are idiots.
Would like anything else? Some shake with that?
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Opportunities
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Re: Opportunities
Good one!
"Dear Amazon,
Throughout the past month, I have received several hundred unsolicited emails regarding a service of yours. I have taken the necessary customer service steps to set them on the right track.
For my time and effort, I have charged $20,001.03 to your checking account.
Thanks,
Freelance CS Rep Mike"
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Now, imagine that half of the world is dumber than that.
It clears up a lot of confusion.
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Re:
Heck it's the reason that schools quit using the A,B,C,D,F grading system and went to Consistent, Satisfactory, Needs Improvement system. It's also the reason every kid gets a trophy for participating, when no one gets a trophy for winning any more.
People are no longer taught at a young age that they are dumb or inadequate, as it would hurt their self esteem.
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What COULD have been...
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blaming
It's a mindset.
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Re: blaming
Not to be insulting, but from the exchange that Mike described, the woman seems to be of lower than average intelligence or, at best, purposfully obtuse. Is your friend functional in normal situation, but just can't handle situations that involve technology?
Forgive my curiosity, but I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can be smart enough to turn on their computer and send an e-mail, but not smart enough to understand the difference between a tech news web site and Amazon.com.
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Re: Re: blaming
Similarly with troubleshooting computer problems. Someone starts to explain their problem, you quickly think 'ah, the problem is x', and wait patiently for them to finish so that you can advise them, while ignoring all the further information they say that would have shown you that you were wrong, and the problem is not x after all.
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Also, kudos to you for not swearing. I would have laughed in her face, txt stylee, and explained to her in no uncertain terms how inept she is and asked her to please vacate the innernetz as quickly as possible.
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Re:
But where will our comedy come from? Do not say the RIAA they would have been sterilized too.
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Later on in life .
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Re: Later on in life .
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Re: Re: Later on in life .
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Re: Re: Re: Later on in life .
Jeb Bush will run next and the masses of ppl that can't tell the difference between Amazon and Tech Dirt will be voting for him!
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I want to personally thank you for this post! The stories here have made for some VERY entertaining reading over my lunch break! I know I can always count on TechDirt to come through for me when I need it.
Loyal reader,
Steve
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The tech support mantra applies...
If they listen, they do not understand.
If they understand, they do not obey.
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Great article on the Blackberry Storm!
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Re: Great article on the Blackberry Storm!
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
Reviews say Blackberry Storm is a terrible product.
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Anyway, this does sound like a scam. Maybe lots of people realized that Amazon gets a lot of complaints on the program, and are trying to capitalize on the fact. And some of them aren't that smart.
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Anyone this stupid
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And some useful information
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Seriously, I wouldn't want to deal with 1,000,000 stupid and angry Amazon customers.
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Re:
I'll grant that there are business practices that prey on the dumb (video professor, anyone?) and that's why we have advertising laws, but in general, keeping the market open to stupidity in its basest form is what makes it work in the first place.
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Sad but true, I hear it every day
We get calls all day, every day calling us fraud, scammers, etc. over a very clear incentive to membership offer is they signed up for. "You stole my money" "This is an unauthorized charge" etc. gets claimed all the time.
You get those that legitimately didn't understand, though sad, you want to help them. Problem is many of them want *all* their money back, even shipping costs on the free incentive used to get them interested. Stupidity is not a ticket for free everything.
Another problem is the many-more-than-you-would-think out there that will just outright lie to try and get refunds. These same types, if you don't refund, will abuse the merchant account chargeback system to not only get money returned, but also damage your ability to do business.
It's a messed up world of Internet consumers out there, making it harder every day to do legitimate business.
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Re: Sad but true, I hear it every day
Be honest.
Do not run scams.
And! Guess what, you will not be noted as scam artists.
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Some Idea
with the next stuff:
1)Tech Dirt and Amazon Aren't Related In Anyway
2)Contact Amazon: amazon-email@amazon.com
3)Please we don't need you to reply to his email, no need to thank either.
and that would be about it, i guess, still there would be people around that but eventually it has to disappear.
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Re: Some Idea
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Re: Some Idea
1) If you aren't related, why are you emailing me? Just give me my money back.
2) I did and that's how I got to tech dirt in the first place.
3) See number 2. Please stop sending me in circles and give me my money back.
Answer only the question asked. Offering additional information only provides more information to be garbled.
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It turns out our CC processor was "offering" all customers a "special" deal, 1 free month & then some monthly fee after that.
Yes it was shown on the order form (From them) and yes it was an opt out system. After 1 person informed us of it, we dug into it & saw that they decided to add this feature to all accounts as a bonus.
Well we turned it off an haven't had any problems with it after. But the long story short is even the small business that appear to be doing the "free shipping" offer may not even know that they're doing this if they are using a 3rd party CC processor.
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This has to be scam
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Send her an reply with:
Dir Madam,
Sorry for the inconvenience. We would be happy to return the $79. We just need to verify some of your account information. Please send us a reply e-mail with your bank account, PIN number, CC Number and expiration date, SSN, ... and the amount will be refunded shortly.
:)
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Re: New Idea
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take your cue from Cops
While your certainly not in the wrong here Mike, I think your phrasing was a bit too polite. A more direct way would be simply:
You have the wrong person.
Amazon charged you.
I'm not Amazon.
Tailor you message to the person, rather than expect them to read up to your level.
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Re: take your cue from Cops
I think several people have actually got a VERY good point on the whole "I'm not Amazon" message not getting through.
I read your emails while I was reading the article, and they do come across as overly complicated.
Not that her obtuseness is excusable, she seemed to be making a real raging effort not to understand, but you could have gone the extra step to be more clear.
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Re: take your cue from Cops
If the Police routinely received training in how to communicate more clearly, how to improve understanding if the first demand is not met, and how to get compliance by communicating correctly, I bet we would see fewer abuse cases.
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Re: Some Idea
Then they will blame you for not accepting or ignoring their email they sent to "donotreply@techdirt.com".
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Thanks Mike!
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Moron in a hurry!
I seriously don't see how people are confusing the 2 and demanding a refund from TechDirt.
DS
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Now I understand that tweet...
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Domino's
Every once in a while, the person mistakenly dials the same number again and I repeat myself, but they usually get it.
But for the one guy who called me back a third time, I just took his order, offering cheesy bread and 2 liters of Coke and Hot Wings. When I was all done I quoted a price that sounded reasonable and hung up.
He never called back.
Hey, I was nice the first 2 times...
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Re: Domino's
I have a number that's one digit off from an Old Chicago pizzeria. Every once in a while, we'll get a call asking for reservations, or "what time are you open?" Once, I said "Hello" and got a rude, "Is that how you answer the phone??" But it usually takes about two seconds to establish that they have the wrong number, and the other person apologizes (even the rude guy), and that's it. No call backs or anything.
I never get to have any fun. *pout*
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Intelligence vs Wisdom
We tend to use 'smart' as a general measure, but it really consists of a couple components, Intelligence and wisdom. To use a quote as an example, The difference between a smart person and a wise person is that a smart person knows what to say and a wise person knows whether or not to say it." As another example, a highly intelligent individual would know that standing outside in the cold/rain can be detrimental to their health, but they may still walk outside in a twenty degree storm in their T-shirt (Albert Einstein was a great example of a highly intelligent individual who didn't always apply that intelligence to the world around him).
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new idea
start up a new program called Techdirt points. you get points for responding to idiots like aprime_lady79. make it a social networking site where you completely outsource CS. readers get bragging points for responding to your emails... you don't have to deal with them anymore... it's win win!
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WHERE ARE THE BOOKS, MASNICK?
There's no way the $79 membership fee was worth it. I'd like a refund please.
Why would anyone buy books from the Amazon anyway? I thought people were worried about the rain forests. Besides I don't read Amazonian.
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Re: WHERE ARE THE BOOKS, MASNICK?
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Just gotta say...
Time Magazine, however, took my cc information last year and decided to keep it on file. Sometime in June they decided to gift all of their customers with automatic renewal. Even the ones like me, who explicitly said they didn't want it... Luckily, I had the confirmation e-mail from the original charge, which showed that I didn't sign up for auto renewal and warned me that I wouldn't be automatically renewed without it. Roflmao.
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That's because they staff the help desk with trained monkeys.
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Thanks!
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Wrote about this story in my blog.
And, Damn! You have some patience...
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Gimme my money,
What you done with my money,
gimme my mother f*ing money.
you dead now b$*&h!
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My $79
Seriously, am I the only one that wonders why these people aren't chased down the street by men with big butterfly nets?
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