ASCAP Now Demanding License From Venues That Let People Play Guitar Hero
from the can't-listen-without-paying-up dept
We've been detailing how the various collection societies around the globe have been trotting out all sorts of dubious reasoning to try to get more people to pay up for a license. In the US, ASCAP has been particularly ridiculous, seeking public performance licenses for (legally licensed) ringtones as well as the 30-second previews you find on music download stores like iTunes. ASCAP has already succeeded in forcing YouTube to pay up as well. Of course, the end result has actually been harming many up and coming songwriters and musicians, as more and more venues are choosing to forego music entirely, because it's just not worth having to pay up the fees that ASCAP charges.In the latest overreach, sent in by reader faceless, ASCAP is demanding a licensing fee from a venue that has the video game Guitar Hero for people to play. While the venue does sometimes have live musicians, it has purposely chosen to only allow original music (no covers) from artists and songwriters not covered by ASCAP, to avoid having to pay the fee. As the venue owner notes, it's ridiculous to think that the venue should have to pay for a license just to let people play Guitar Hero, saying, "patrons are paying for the entertainment of the game not for the listening value of the music." But, of course, that's not how ASCAP views any of these things, insisting that the value itself comes from the music, and thus the songwriters must absolutely be paid. Of course, this isn't the first time ASCAP has come down hard on music video games. Earlier this year, it insisted that the video game companies themselves should pay performance licensing fees as well -- so in this case it looks like they're trying to double or triple dip.
Of course, the most likely end result? The venue will drop the game, and fewer people will hear the music. This harms everyone -- the songwriters, the musicians, ASCAP and the venue. But ASCAP seems to think it's the right move. This is why more and more musicians are recognizing that what's good for ASCAP is not good for songwriters.
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Filed Under: guitar hero, licensing, venues, video games
Companies: ascap
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I guess i am lost
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Re: I guess i am lost
The license is for individual, not commercial use. By using it in a bar, it is effectively a public performance, different from a home use.
Mike, it doesn't matter WHY the patrons are enjoying the music (play or just listening to it), the effect is the same. Try playing the game without music, it's pretty dull!
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Re: Re: I guess i am lost
Agreed, and if there's a stable within listening distance, those horses better pay up too!
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Re: Re: I guess i am lost
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Way to "double dip" there...
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Re: Re: I guess i am lost
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Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
When you buy the video monitor, you are paying for the whole thing. When you use music, you are paying for a use, not ownership.
If you want to pay a few million dollars for a single version of Guitar Hero, I am sure there are bands that would sell you their songs (probably $10,000 - $20,000 a crack) and that still wouldn't give you resale rights.
Stop making the mistake of confusing ownership with license rights. It's a foolish concept.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
That gets said a lot, and while I'm sure it's true it raises a question:
Where is this stated? Is it on display somwhere on the CD packaging where I can read it before I buy it for CDs? Is it on the box or packaging of the video game where I can read it before I buy it?
It seems to me that, given that there are several different licenses and not all bands/artists/labels/etc. require the same licenses for different things, that it's reasonable for the consumer to expect to be informed about what they're buying and what stipulations are involved BEFORE buying. I mean, you can't sell someone something with no upfront stipulations and then suddenly start dictating what they do with it after the fact, like say on the inside of the cd label where it previously couldn't be seen.
I'm not saying that this is what's currently happening; it's been so long since I've bought a CD or videogame that I just don't know. But it seems evident that if you ask most people what they bought from Best Buy with their Christmas gift card, they're going to say, "I got the new Killers CD", rather than "I got the residential limited license to play the new Killers music".
If labels REALLY wanted to stop the infringement of their licenses like in this case, shouldn't they do a better job of promenently informing their customers what they're buying?
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That's the point.
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Once again an exaggerated view of the value of such things. In a free market things are worth what people will pay for them. The buyer sets the price not the seller. There is a word for the system where the seller gets to set the price - it's called a monopoly. It's generally recognised to be unfair and a bad idea.
The distinctions you talk of have been invented by music industry middle men as a means of lining their own pockets.
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"RT, Konami and Activision all took care of the licensing of GH for public venues. "
If this is true then ASCAP are simply wrong.
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Re: Re: I guess i am lost
Or what if I have friends over?
Or my windows are down?
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Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
Or my windows are down?
better buy two licenses. just to be safe.
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Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
The Best Buy demo is an interesting question, though.
For that matter, have they gone after department stores that sell stereos or sound systems, for having those devices playing music?
What about the TV departments that play movies on their wall of TVs? Is the MPAA missing out on a revenue stream there?
Or maybe I shouldn't joke about that...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
I'd be shocked if that sort of thing wasn't covered in their distributor's contract. Using images and likeness of a distributed product for in store promotional value is pretty common dist. contract language, from what I understand...
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"(7) performance of a nondramatic musical work by a vending establishment open to the public at large without any direct or indirect admission charge, where the sole purpose of the performance is to promote the retail sale of copies or phonorecords of the work, or of the audiovisual or other devices utilized in such performance, and the performance is not transmitted beyond the place where the establishment is located and is within the immediate area where the sale is occurring"
@Rob - ASCAP collects royalties for the public performance of music compositions, regardless of who plays them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I guess i am lost
It's sort of like hold music. If you notice a lot of companies no longer have it. I believe they're not even allowed to broadcast a local radio station as their hold music either although I've noticed that some establishments will broadcast their XM which I don't believe falls under the same restrictions.
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Re: Re: I guess i am lost
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*sigh*
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heh
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Re: heh
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Re: heh
How bout if I come into your job and tell you what you can and cannot make and garnish 90 percent of your check you would bitch
The problem is the music industry is a joke and they are all thieves including 98 percvent of the people on tv
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Maybe there should be a new edition of Rockband
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1. Royalties are only paid on songs that achieve a perfect score.
2. All other scores should be either : i.) considered a derivative work and therefore subject to different rates. ii.) a partial representation of the original work and subject to a reduced fee. You only got 53% of that song correct, here is your 53% bill.
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It is true ASCAP put many of us out of work as musicians.
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I'd love to see someone try THAT business model to see how much theyd generate...
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Great article
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It's kind of like shrinkwrap software licenses. You get the impression that they are trying to pull a fast one on their customers.
But that's wrong of course. It is the citizens job to understand and be informed about the arcana of IP law before they buy anything. If they don't like the restrictive and unintuitive licenses that are underhandedly attached to all of the stuff they buy, they shouldn't buy stuff.
It's that simple.
All of you slashdot-reading freetards just pretend that it's complex so that you can steal stuff with a clean conscience.
COMMIES!!
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You forgot that we all just want something for free, the only word we know in the English language is "draconian", and we all have an overwhelming sense of fake moral outrage....
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I am thinking the Fed's are going to have to step in and give clear and concise law as to what is licensed and what is not. ( I am not being sarcastic, just living in fairy land) When i buy a box with a game in it, in my naivety, i think I own it. They have my money and I have their product. As long as i do not copy it and resell those copies i should be able to do whatever the fuck i want with it. Otherwise do not sell it to the public.
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Me too. The sarcasm was simply incomplete. I am more than happy to educate others on how to reach that ultimate level of sarcasm, such that instead of retorting, your adversary simply wilts into alternating fits of tears and defecations.
Signed,
Dr. Dark Helmet
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Now for some interesting concepts ...
Eventually a Critical threshold will be reached where it is common knowledge that there are alternatives to the record labels and collection agencies. At that point a catastrophic failure will occur in the corporate music industry. Money will flow very rapidly from the record labels to the Independants, reshaping the entire music industry.
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Rage against the machine!
I suggest the passive-aggressive approach. Only play Guitar Hero songs that you already own legally. Then, challenge those jerks at ASCAP and counter-sue. Ask for punitive damages. Bring your CDs to court. Buy old vinyl at yard sales and download digital copies. Call the cretins' bluff!!
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Don't play anything.
Or make a "ASCAP Freezone" and put on the door :)
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Okay, really?
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ASCAP is good for musicians because they ARE musicians
Contrary to some commenters, the record labels are not ASCAP. Performance rights societies collect fees for performances of music.
The venue mentioned here is a bar that is using a game to encourage people to meet and drink and spend money there.
Clubs always need to find ways to bring people in, and a lot of these involve spending money. Redecorating requires a designer. New menus require chefs and supplies.
Musical entertainment requires payment to the songwriters.
The success of Guitar Hero and Rock Band etc. depend upon the songs. People buying the Beatles pack will complain about the song selection or compliment the inclusion of their favorite songs.
According to the original post, ASCAP told the venue they were using the games like a JukeBox. I haven't been there, but it seems likely the could be. Maybe they're not.
But I notice that the venue doesn't want to pay ASCAP for anything. I find it hard to believe they never play a radio or have a single local and unsigned artist who never ever sings a cover song that's under ASCAP's jurisdiction.
Regarding some of the bad arguments here... the exemption another commenter shared with us is for a department store having music playing for demonstration purposes of selling equipment. Department stores do not pay for that.
They do, however, pay for the Muzac in the elevator and the rest of the department store that is used to promote good feeling during a shopping experience.
That's really what ASCAP is doing in these situations -- going after people using music to promote their goods and services.
A nightclub will budget for promoters to organize events and bring people in. Songwriters deserve a piece of the pie for promoting venues just as any promotor or DJ if their music is used in this fashion. It's typical that music is devalued by the nightclub owners who will pay for a liquor license, a promotor, and bar renovations but somehow can't cough up a few hundred dollars a year for the music that makes the bad drinks, drinkable, the ugly patrons sexier, and the salty bar snacks edible.
ASCAP also has many services available to fledgeling songwriters and artists and all the fees that local venues pay help to underwrite those costs.
A venue that regularly uses music to make money shouldn't be so shocked that musicians (songwriters) want to be compensate for their work as well.
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ASCAP is just a front
Then a full time classic rock cover band performer chimes in and relates how ASCAP put may musicians out of work.
I don't think ASCAP is a group of musicians putting themselves out of work, that's for sure...
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Re: ASCAP is just a front
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ASCAP licensing
As a musician myself, I can confidently say that ASCAP and BMI have gotten completely ridiculous and distorted the whole purpose of a worker's union.
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Why would you pay for cable tv but not the right to listen to music...It's the same thing why do people safe guard motion pictures but not the music that makes those motion pictures interesting?
If it was your project you would want to get paid.
I think consumers need to stop passing the buck off on the little guy and fight for financial freedom
Purchasing the game only gets the game manufacturers the money which they then probably share a fraction of a cent.
Musicians have the right to make money
ASCAP can be beneficial I can say this as an artist.
Obviously the person that wrote this article is not so you can go with experience or just some idiot talking out his chocolate starfish
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