Jurors Cause Trouble By Friending Each Other On Facebook, Using Wikipedia For Research
from the no-friending-allowed dept
We've discussed numerous court cases where modern technology has caused significant procedural problems from "the old ways" of doing things. CitMediaLaw points us to a story that includes two more cases, both in Maryland. In one, lawyers are seeking a new trial because some of the jurors became Facebook "friends" during the trial. This follows on the news that Florida is forbidding judges from friending lawyers on social networking sites, but is it reasonable to prevent jurors from friending each other? For many Facebook users, "friending" people you meet is quite natural and something you do almost immediately upon meeting someone new. So it should be no surprise that some jurors would choose to quickly friend each other. It's hard to see how that would make the results of the jury verdict suspect, however.The second case involved jurors using Wikipedia to look up some terms. This is hardly a new concept. Some judges these days are specifically warning jurors not to use the internet to look up anything related to a case, but for a generation of folks who consider internet research to be an adjunct part of the thinking process, it's not hard to recognize why many would ignore this, and not think they're doing anything wrong (and they might have a good argument). The real question is whether or not there are reasonable ways to change the way the jury system works to allow for what many people consider perfectly natural: doing additional research on their own. For those who are comfortable with the old system, this may seem like a horrific idea (and yes, we all understand the reasons why the current system wants to limit things to just what's said in the courtroom). However, at some point the system may need to recognize that an artificial constraint on learning about the details of the case may not actually be the best system.
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Filed Under: friending, jurors, jury, research, social networks
Companies: facebook, wikipedia
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Can't Stop the Message
Well during the ceremony, one of my other daughters was in constant communication by texting my eldest daughter. After the ceremony, I asked my eldest daughter what the other graduates were doing. Her response texting!
So, today we are no longer forced to simply sit for a couple of hours listening to incredibly boring speakers. Ah progress!!!
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Re: Can't Stop the Message
It's just a thought. But isn't that what matters?
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Re: Can't Stop the Message
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Re: Re: Can't Stop the Message
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Re: Re: Re: Can't Stop the Message
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Meh
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Re: Meh
Maybe they should bar people from adding other people in their phones, including judges and lawyers! I mean, why would a lawyer need the phone number of a judge? Preposterous.
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Re: Meh
> impound the jury.
The word you're looking for is "sequester", not "impound".
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In a court of law, the jurors are suppose to work with the material as presented in the court, not outside information they have sourced themselves. There is no way to control that outside information, and no way to be sure of it's crediblity. Imagine a court case on copyright and one of the jurors is reading this site, and another is reading the RIAA blog. which one is right? neither of them, because they are allowed biased comments to influence their opinions.
Jurors are not investigators, and should never take up that role.
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Re:
Allowing jurors to be sitting there looking stuff up on the internet, including reading the op-ed pieces, analyst and media conclusions will just "help" them reach their verdict sooooo much faster.
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As for the Facebook Friending thing goes, I can see where that might cause a problem. But only if it's during the actual trial; information about the trial could leak out. If it's after the fact then I don't see a problem.
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I can understand looking up details of a case online being forbidden, but just the meaning of terms, come on.
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Re: Re:
It's almost like those Holiday Inn commercials. The guy/woman steps in does something completely awesome, and then gets asked if they are. They respond with "No, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night". Same with a Wiki page you know, but not really.
Which is why I can see a limit on what a juror can do during a trial. Personally if someone needs a clarification on a term, or need to know the definition of something they should use an encyclopedia or a dictionary. Something done by an expert in what ever they are asking about. Not what some random joe blow can write in a wiki page, or any web source.
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Except that actually wikipedia is statistically more accurate than the old fashioned encyclopedias written by supposed "experts".
In my experience from looking up things that I have good direct personal knowledge of Wikipedia is about as good as any other source.
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The problem isn't that the jurors want to be informed, it's that there isn't a sanctioned place where they can do research.
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Thus, jurors doing their due diligence and investigating on their own should be protected so that they may properly conduct their rights as jurors.
In addition, should a juror be required to forget all previous knowledge on a topic? As a tech person, if a prosecutor tells me factually incorrect technical information, am I to purposefully believe wrong information because it was presented as truth in a court of law without proper rebuttal? If I am allowed to rely on previous knowledge, how is this any different than me looking up information as a member of the jury? If I am not allowed to use previous knowledge, then why have a jury at all?
A judge is supposed to make an unbiased opinion. That is not what a jury is for: a jury is to make an opinion based on community standards weighed against the evidence. The judge represents the law, the jury represents the community. It's a fundamental right in this country to be judged by a jury of your peers if you wish, and not be judged by the letter of the law. Unfortunately, the judges and lawyers in this country have convinced everyone differently.
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Re: Re:
> the very validity of the law in question
Not sure where you've been but that statement is absolutely untrue. How else do you think we have laws overturned by the courts? Roe v. Wade is a good example. The law itself was challenged as unconstitutional and it was overturned.
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Re: Re:
> should be protected so that they may properly conduct their
> rights as jurors
Problems occur, however, when evidence is suppressed by the court to protect the rights of the defendant. For example, if the police beat a confession out of someone or search a suspect's house without a warrant, the judge will suppress the confession or any evidence obtained in the illegal search. Then a juror gets on his iPhone and reads a press account of the suppression ruling and tells all the other jurors, "Hey, they didn't tell us this guy confessed already!" Next thing you know the defendant is being convicted based on illegally obtained evidence.
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Ummm...no, never...
The problem is not that people are looking stuff up (or reading newspapers, listening to the radio, or watching television), but they are also reading interpretations and getting information never presented to the jury. Sometimes it is because the information may have been smoke, but was never proven to be fire. Sometimes people are convicted by the media because the media make inferences and draw conclusions based on limited information, but a jury should never do that. However, finding those sorts of discussions on the internet, which they will, will immediately taint the jury and it is likely that someone will make a motion for a mistrial. The potential for abuse is high.
By way of example, I think a huge chunk of the world was convinced that O.J. Simpson was guilty, regardless of what the jury ruled. Depending on what people on the Simpson jury might have been reading, the outcome might well have been very different. Which was more fair to O.J.? If the jury had been tainted by media coverage, would there have been an immediate appeal? Absolutely.
This situation is not one where new technology somehow argues to permit people to do what they have never done before. It just says there are more ways for people to get misinformation and to conclude from that misinformation, either favorably or unfavorably for the defendant, something that is different from what supported fact would conclude. In every single case such conduct is automatic grounds for an appeal - and the party requesting the appeal would be correct.
If you want horrific, how about the possibility that all electronic toys would be taken from a jury during their duty and the court sequesters the jury somewhere away from all contact with the public? Courts have done this in the past when media coverage was so extensive that there was no reasonable way to prevent pollution of the jury. It could start to become the norm. We could start seeing special hotels for juries with Faraday cages.
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Re: Ummm...no, never...
For some reason, when people start talking about the law, they throw out common sense and morality. That is stupid.
So, the question is whether a jury that has additional information is better able to decide the truth. If they are not, that's an enormous indictment of our media system. If they are, there's no problem.
The legal system we have now is so often abused by so many. It costs a lot of money and routinely frees the guilty and imprisons the innocent. Yet people defend it as the only possible system that could ever exist. As if it's some perfect thing that descended from heaven.
It's an antiquated system that is full of inefficiency, abuse, and error.
The best example of this is people thinking that uninformed people are somehow better able to judge truth.
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Re: Re: Ummm...no, never...
"For some reason, when people start talking about the law, they throw out common sense and morality. That is stupid."
Couldn't disagree more with the morality portion. The law is NOT about morality, at least in the traditional sense of the word. Morality is about right and wrong. The law is not. The law is about setting up a controlled environment that will allow the most amount of people in society to pursue life, liberty, and blah blah blah. There may sound like there is some loose correlation (i.e. Thou shalt not kill vs. Murder in the 1st/2nd degree), but they're really not about the same thing. Law makers don't outlaw murder because it's wrong, at least not primarily. They outlaw it because not doing so creates an unlivable environment for their constituents.
*It's an extreme example, but lower the extremes and I believe you'll see it still applies*
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Re: Ummm...no, never...
...and then he went on to publish a book called If I Did It: Confessions of the Killer.
Guess the media really screwed the pooch on that one, eh?
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Re: Ummm...no, never...
So true. The media often give out false information in their wild-eyed race to "inform" us. The snipers in the Washington, DC area a few years back is a good example: according to the media, the shooter *had* to be a white guy driving a white box truck. Wrong on both *facts." But the media was never held accountable for its reckless lies. Any juror reading the paper or watching TV would have been wrongly influenced by those useless media morons.
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Bad Jury
In the Dixon trial, there was some concern over a comment left on a facebook status, I think it was simply "Guilty!" or something like that. I don't see why this would be any different than someone yelling guilty from the street as the jurors left the court, but, the lawyers were making a big deal over it.
As far as using wikipedia to look up terms, well, first, there is the whole wikipedia problem. Imagine if one of the attorneys thought that is what they were doing, they could edit it in their favor. But in general, jurors are not supposed to do outside research of any kind. If I were a juror, I sure wouldn't like it, but still, I see why it is good. A lot of effort is made to ensure that a trial is fair, that facts are verified, and disputed facts are cross examined or rebutted. You don't get that with the outside research.
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As for the jurors friending each other. We were told not to talk to each other at the start, but then they put 300 of us in a room and the chatter never died down.
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this is not new
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Not all of us...
Actually, I'm Just a Moron, and I don't really understand the Reasons.
Could someone please educate me?
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Re: Not all of us...
The big one is the fear of a juror researching and coming up with bad information, or taking opinion as fact.
But then, it seems like the problem is more with a juror not knowing how to do research properly, rather than with research itself. Perhaps a better answer is to let juror's do research, but have the lawyers assist in doing it thoroughly, and making sure to point out what is fact and what is opinion?
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Re: Re: Not all of us...
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Just goes to show
If we would have adopted their system of guilty upon accusation, then all these legal problems would not exist.
Life will be a lot simpler when we just take the word of corporations.
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Re: Just goes to show
Seems like what many people would be doing if they were surfing the net while in a trial...
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The world has changed ...
IMHO, the format of a jury trial in a state-owned courtroom where the state prosecutes suits under state (or city/county/federal, state is used in the generic sense here) law is hundreds of years old.
The longer we put off reform to accommodate new technology, the more crap like this we'll see. The laws are, quite simply, antiquated.
Beware of corporate influence in these new laws.
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Re: The world has changed ...
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The Net
Research terms on the internet? Absolutely! Lawyers have screwed up and deliberately obscured legal definitions, to their monetary benefit btw, to the point where this is absolutely necessary for the layman.
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Techdirt had an article about the internet making people stupid...
The danger then with the existing rules is, people who are used to using the internet as a knowledge-base are going to be at a at least temporary cognitive disadvantage when their research tools are limited or removed.
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Re: Techdirt had an article about the internet making people stupid...
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Re: Techdirt had an article about the internet making people stupid...
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Re: Re: Techdirt had an article about the internet making people stupid...
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How about pre-knowledge
I would agree that they should not look at opinions about the trial, or those items, but how is looking at wiki, or even a dead tree version encyclopedia to better understand a term or bit of information doing the justice system wrong?
Are we only looking at using blank morality difference engines, loaded with only the information from the prosecution/defense/judge, or are we wanting to use a jury of peers, people whom have real world experience and knowledge....
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Re: How about pre-knowledge
A key piece of evidence is based on DNA. So a juror goes out and search DNA, and the first site the juror sees is a site operated by a luddite who has at most a vague understanding of DNA testing. This individual stresses the miniscule error rate, using inflammatory words and quoting dubious sources regarding the supposed "problems" with DNA testing.
The juror then starts talking with other jurors about how awful DNA testing is and that at least one court (a little podunk court located in backwater, USA) found "significant issues" with DNA testing. Suddenly, the key piece of evidence in a rape-murder trial is thrown out and an individual who was clearly guilty, if the DNA evidence is to be believed, is found innocent.
Harmless researching for "facts"? Please. These are real people who have issues understanding how a light bulb works (my daughter is extremely computer savvy, but also has the vaguest clue as to where electricity comes from and how light comes out of a light bulb) - even if they are computer literate.
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Re: Re: How about pre-knowledge
How is that person's handling of previous DNA knowledge different then a person handling new information about DNA from an out-of-court source at the time of trial? If it's an honor-system style thing where they may know of DNA beforehand but promise to not be swayed, how is that any different than someone gaining new knowledge promising not be swayed? If juror selection is to take out people with previous knowledge, can not juror selection also take out people who will research, because saying you know nothing about DNA is as reliable as saying you won't research, it's all honor system, and the time of learning and technology used are irrelevant.
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Re: Re: Re: How about pre-knowledge
It isn't. What's different is that you cannot cut a man's brain out to make him unlearn something, but you can threaten him to discourage future behavior. The answer is simple practicality; it should be obvious.
Also, anyone who's sat through voir dire knows how superficial it is, so the "screen them out!" argument won't hold up regardless of how many times it's asserted.
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Re: How about pre-knowledge
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Re: Re: How about pre-knowledge
Of course they should not be biased about the actual case - but technical knowledge about issues that relate to the case can only be a good thing - since the legal profession seems to be spectacularly ignorant of such things.
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Clueless
Are you retarded?
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Re: Clueless
Your hateful language aside, juries do occasionally visit the scene of the crime....
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True. I just wasn't sure if you were intimating that they never went, since the comment was fairly general...
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Re: Clueless
Which part of "we all understand the reasons why the current system wants to limit things to just what's said in the courtroom" did you miss?
They are specifically prohibited from doing research on their own or visiting the scene. They are not even allowed to discuss the case outside of the jury room.
Yes, that's what I said. Why do you call me retarded and then ask me if I know what I said in the post?
Did you read the post?
According to you, this should all be changed because it's inconvenient.
I said nothing about convenience.
I have to admit I'm rather taken aback by the number of people in this thread who didn't seem to read what I wrote and just want to attack me for daring to suggest that perhaps the system needs to change.
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Re: Re: Clueless
I think many (perhaps not all, but many) of the responses are discussing your question. Yes, a few are "attacking" you, but most are not.
For those interested in keeping juries sufficiently unbiased to prevent (more frequent) mistrials, the answer is that they are unable to think of a way.
For those who apparently do not know what a mistrial is, or how serious a jury can be prejudiced by an opinion are misinformation, the answer seems to be "at least we don't have to listen to two people in suits and an old guy behind a big desk because they are boring."
I think you have plenty of good answers and discussion to your question. Ignore the attacks and focus on those with a supported viewpoint.
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Re: Re: Clueless
Shut up, doo doo head!
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Re: Re: Clueless
we are not attacking you, we are pointing out that sometimes the ability to change things does not make changing things the right decision. In this case I think the system of not allowing individual research via internet by jurors is a well thought out one. You feel differently. I would think that is the point of the site is to exchange different views on the effects of emerging technologies on society and the culture.
Doo doo head
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Re: Re: Re: Clueless
No, that's fine. Those comments I'm fine with. It's the ones that are personally insulting ("what are you, retarded?") and then acting as if I didn't even acknowledge why the current system is the way it is. I did.
I'm all for discussing it, and I understand the arguments on either side. But I'm amazed that there aren't many posts that are actually explaining why the old way makes sense. They just repeat the same point over, rather than why it makes sense.
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Try asking questions as a juror in a tax trial regarding the legality of mandatory tax requirements, and see how far you'll get in getting information.
Try getting any unbiased information from a judge regarding anything to do with a drug case and the war on drugs or drug laws. You'll get government propaganda approved information.
Jury nullification is a right that is being stripped away by this very requirement.
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The second half of that sentence negates the first since your life experience isn't entered into evidence, no? For example, if prosecution submits evidence which I know to be junk, what then? Do I reject it or do I pretend to be an ignoramus and accept it? Why should an ignorant person just accept as true whatever he sees?
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That's hilarious.
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"Oh, gee, expert for the defense made a good rebuttal, but he forgot XYZ, oh well, I'll pretend I don't know it either and return a guilty verdict..." Is that how it's supposed to go?
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Just FYI: I am a "techie" and have been told that I will never serve on a jury because engineers are too analytical and put excessive weight on what they know and the facts. You think they want someone on the jury who is going to do a lot of research while the case is active? They would probably rather have the engineer...
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Voir dire barely scratches the surface -- if the case involves chemical evidence, for example, there is no time to exhaustively interrogate each and every prospective juror wrt to their knowledge of chemistry. Most of the time, they won't even ask. Lawyers tend to punch down into details they understand and ignore ones they don't. I'll address this below. You take for granted how much of your interpretation of the world depends on your past "research."
"Just FYI: I am a "techie" and have been told that I will never serve on a jury because engineers are too analytical and put excessive weight on what they know and the facts."
Do not get your hopes up -- once you've told a lawyer that you're an engineer, the occupational side of the voir dire will end because lawyers generally know nothing about science and engineering, and they figure your objectivity will play into their favor. However, tell them you've so much as lived in a dumpster behind a police station or courthouse and you will get the third-degree before they invariably dismiss you.
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blah
I don't like the jury system so you can imagine how easy it was not to be part of the jury when "my turn rolled around without my acknowledgment" but that's just HOW it works right? I think its a bit weird to friend people but its not unbelievable because they are in a hostile environment and that's natural human desire in such environments. Bottom line ALL of this stuff was made up without me entirely..the system..the rules..the laws..so honestly I don't see where anybody in my position should just except it, No I don't care how the jury system works cause the jury system cares not, for us. Its easy to denounce and turn things into a cold-dead-system and believe there is no nature involved with human beings, good luck with that.
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Re:
It seems to me that Mike is pointing out a simple fact: The reality of this situation is that now there are extremely fast and easy tools for people to communicate and research, and people *are* going to do it. No amount of admonition is going to change that, and I'll go a step farther and say that it would probably take some pretty draconian (yay 100 points!) threats of punishment to reduce it! Solitary confinement is truly the only way to keep people from talking and doing their own research.
It's kind of like yelling at the river to stop, yell all you want, but it's not going to stop.
By the way, an adequate definition of "stupid and dense" might be "someone who rails against reality". That's you, AC.
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Obviously, if tens of millions of people are breaking a law that hasn't been around that long it makes sense to strengthen that law to try and stop hundreds of millions of people. Makes sense, right?
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Let me get you some glasses...
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@Mike Masnick: Taken aback? You suggested the system might need changing because some jurors took inappropirate action, but it involved technology so you must defend it right?! You didn't suggest. You said you found it "hard to see"!!! Sorry, you suggested a stupid idea, and got slammed for it. Nice attempted save.
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Blocking VPN or other tunneling techniques would encourage the jury to use the computers wisely.
Let them 'Friend' each other - just have it all recorded so all parties can examine it for faults. In fact create a facebook group for the trail where all the witness, accused, and court staff MUST all join with the Jury.
Yeah mis-trials will be up 1000% but in some countries internet access is a basic human right.
The lesson here is to know where to draw the line. Until that line is known for sure it best to rely upon what you know - lock up the jury and set the guild free right?
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So if you yourself acknowledge why the current system works the way it does, why should the conversation focus on that? It shouldn't. If you acknowledge why the current system works (implying that it does, which it does), then discussing "why it (the current system) makes sense is completely redundant. Generally speaking, it is YOUR job to explain to US (those in agreement with the current system) why your NEW WAY makes sense. Get it? The person recommending, suggesting, or defending the new system has to both point out the flaws in the old system, and list the benefits of the new system. You have done neither. That's pretty basic level logic-debate format.
@Will: You said "No amount of admonition is going to change that". I say, BS. Admonition can, does, and will continue to change that. It won't stop it from occuring, but it happens all the time that jurors will be prevented from rendering judgement if they take the steps sited in the article.
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Re:
I didn't say the current system *works*. I said it's understandable WHY it is the way it is. That doesn't mean it works.
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Tabloid Justice
An yet, you're still opposed to it. Tabloid justice, huh?
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Re: Tabloid Justice
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Jurors cause trouble...
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