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Sony Deletes Feature On PS3's; You Don't Own What You Thought You Bought

from the the-digital-age dept

Wed, Mar 31st 2010 7:31am — Mike Masnick

It used to be when you bought a product, you owned it. Simple, right? And once you owned it, you could do what you want with it? But, lately, thanks to digital products and an always connected world, many companies have changed things around -- so the products you thought you owned, you actually rent. But, it can go even further than that, where a product you thought you owned can be irrevocably changed without your permission, long after you bought it. Take, for example, the recent story of Sony deleting a feature on the PS3 that let users (not owners, apparently) install other operating systems, such as Linux. It's going away. Sony announced that when the next PS3 firmware upgrade comes along, it'll wipe out this feature, whether you used it or not. The only way to avoid that is not to upgrade, but that will also greatly limit what you can do with your PS3.

So why is Sony retroactively taking away a feature that it sold to people? Apparently because some people might possibly use it in a way that Sony didn't intend. The EFF has the whole backstory:

The backstory is that Sony provided the Other OS feature in order to support IBM's Cell Project, which produced the PS3's CPU and made it practical to use PS3 consoles as compute nodes for a scientific supercomputer. The U.S. Army did just that, buying more than 2,000 PS3s to build a supercomputer. Lots of hobbyists also made use of the Other OS feature, using it to write their own games and creatively repurpose their PS3s.

Recently, however, a hobbyist named Geohot announced that he was able to use the Other OS feature along with a bit of soldering in a manner that gave him more control over the PS3 hardware than Sony had intended. Sony responded with the "upgrade" that removes the Other OS feature.

This is, frankly, obnoxious -- and I half wonder if there will be a lawsuit over this. People were sold one thing and then Sony retroactively decided to take away a feature that some found quite useful However, I imagine that in a world of interconnected devices, stories like this are going to become more common. Isn't it time that someone created a movement to highlight what products you actually own once you've bought them?

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Filed Under: ps3
Companies: sony

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Jon Renaut (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 6:57am

Where's the FTC?
I'd like to see the FTC step in and say that you can't call it "selling" if you retain control over it.
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matt, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:36am

lawsuit
"I half wonder if there will be a lawsuit over this."

HALF wonder? I guarantee there will be a class action suit. It'll cost Sony over a hundred million dollars. They'll admit no wrongdoing and still get to remove the feature. The firm handling the suit will collect tens of millions in legal fees. And consumers might get a coupon for $5.00 off their next purchase of $50.00 or more on the Playstation Network.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:39am

This is just like Toyota removing their car's ability to brake properly.
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NUKE intellectual property, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:42am

SONY ROOTKIT on the PS3?
wonder is this true?
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:43am

"The only way to avoid that is not to upgrade, but that will also greatly limit what you can do with your PS3"

It will not limit what you can presently do with the PS3. It can limit what you can do in the future.

In the old days, when you bought electronics, you'd get exactly what you paid for now and forever. Now electronics can be updated to do new things, offer new services, and play new and different content.

To me the mistake Sony made was allowing the installation of Linux in the first place. It made no business sense, i.e., it doesn't earn them any money and they actually lose money because they're selling consoles that will not play any games. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone figured out how to use this to bypass DRM. Why didn't Sony figure that out?

I guess my point is that if you want new features to be added to your electronics completely for free, is it too much to ask that sometimes unprofitable features can be removed?

I haven't completely thought this out yet. I'm not saying either side is right, I'm just putting the question out there.
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Gamer, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:47am

This is necessary to prevent exploits and multiplayer cheats in case the PS3 gets hacked. An incredible small amount of people ever bothered to install Linux on their systems, and if you ask the community of *gamers* who own a PS3, rather than the usual neckbeards who want to install Linux on their washing machines, you will see most people agree it is for the best.
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Justa Comment, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:47am

Silly "User" !
Someone forgot the Corporate America rules !
- You do NOT own products.
- You may NOT technically examine or modify products. And..
You may NOT become technically proficient to examine products.
- You owe CoMerica at least a nickel when you access a product.
- You owe a CoMerica "Provider" at least a buck when you use a product.
- Non-compliance is criminal and disclosure is liable.
The law will enforce compliance... so,
OBEY all "Users" !
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zaven (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:51am

Re:
"It will not limit what you can presently do with the PS3. It can limit what you can do in the future. "

You can't play online without the latest firmware buddy. I can currently play online. If I don't upgrade, I am limited on what I can do presently, not in the future.
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Jon Renaut (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:59am

Re:
I installed Linux on my washing machine last week. It's great! It's no longer compatible with my dryer, and I have to make the soap myself, but it's all worth it for the freedom to wash my whites in cold water.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:59am

Re: Where's the FTC?
Hah, a government agency actually serving the PUBLIC interest? I won't hold my breath.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:59am

Re: Re:
"You can't play online without the latest firmware buddy."

Thanks for correcting me. From what I've read (incorrectly obviously) is that you'd no longer be able to update certain DRM related features, including the ability to play the latest blu-ray discs.

Still, my question remains. In the old days I'd buy a static product. When some new feature would come out, I'd have to buy an entirely new piece of electronics to get it. Now we're getting updates for free. Is it worth getting those updates for free if occasionally we have to give up other features?

And we're not talking about a huge feature that nearly everyone uses such as the ability to play blu-ray discs. The vast majority of PS3 users never installed Linux.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:00am

Re: Re: Where's the FTC?
Heck, that's basically a contradiction in terms.
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Danny, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:01am

I personally don't care one way or another about being able to install Linux on yet another piece of hardware (I'm waiting for people to start putting that damn OS in cars, toasters, sex toys, digital calculators, HDTVs, blenders, hair clippers, and anything else that runs on electricity for the sake of sounding "hip and anti-mainstream") but I do think there is something to be said about selling a product then after it is bought going back and taking that feature away.

I don't see why Sony didn't just make the official position of something like refusing to service PS3 units that have had Linux installed on them or something?

But lawsuit? I don't even own a PS3 but I'll bet you money they Sony already has some EULA-like documentation in place that pretty much says, "It's our system and we can do what we want with it without telling you about it."
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:03am

Re: lawsuit
That is re - assuring, now I KNOW justice will be served. The public looks forward to those $5 coupons.
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Hulser (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:03am

Re:
This is necessary to prevent exploits and multiplayer cheats in case the PS3 gets hacked.

I think this is a key point. The primary value and the intent of the PS3 is as a game platform. Not properly preventing cheating would be considered negligent on Sony's part because it would seriously diminish the value of the product. In my mind, this outweighs any concerns about secondary uses of the PS3. If you bought a PS3 with the purpose of using it to run Linux, then fine; that's what you can do with it. But the tradeoff is that you won't be able to use it to play games. That seeems quite fair to me.

neckbeards who want to install Linux on their washing machines

I LOLed.
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A Dan (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:06am

Re: Re: Re:
Not the point. Part of the reason some people bought their consoles is this key (to them) feature, along with the ability to play new games and watch new movies. Now Sony's making them choose which of the features they lose, not adding functionality. There's a problem here: Sony doesn't have to disable one of these features.
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SONY ROOT KIT, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:07am

DUM FISHY
it did add value to sony
it had lil hackers go, hey cool i want this rather then a XBOX thats all locke dup and i cant do nothing with.

SO here we have imafishnut saying hes a pro sony fucktard.
Seriously look at what you can do as value rather then it not giving the company direct value it gave them increased sales

if i have to buy more then one to make a super computer HRM thats not value is it

STUPID DUMB
wake up and look around at what you type sir
really you look foolish
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Greg, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:07am

remember the rootkit
Never trust Sony. I haven't bought a Sony product since the rootkit fiasco, and this just reinforces that decision. I will continue not buying Sony products.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:07am

Re: Re:
Are you using GRUB or LILO to load your fabric softeners?
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Michael Kohne, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:09am

Lawsuit...
I doubt that there's enough people who care about this feature in order to make a class action lawyer take notice, and I can't see any individual user having the money to pursue such a suit.

Sony only ever allowed this as a way to get some early publicity. Now that they don't need that, the feature goes away because it's more of a liability than a help.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Sony doesn't have to disable one of these features."

Sony doesn't have to update to add new features either. But you enjoy the fact that it does.

And all those people, corporations, and government entities which bought PS3s to use as cheap computer nodes can continue to use them as such.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:10am

Re:
It made no business sense, i.e., it doesn't earn them any money and they actually lose money because they're selling consoles that will not play any games.

We bought a whole labful to teach game programming - guess they'll go in the skip now. Sony games houses keep complaining about the lack of competent programmers. Enabling education was the purpose of allowing the Linux installation and it benefits Sony in lots of indirect ways - to say it made no business sense is nonsense.
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Michael Kay, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:10am

Microsoft have been doing this for years
Every time Microsoft issue a security patch, they prevent you doing things with "your" machine that you were able to do before. Sometimes that's in your interests, sometimes it's not. There was a recent patch to prevent your machine running a pirated copy of Office. A couple of years ago there was a patch to remove the swastika symbol from one of the installed fonts (it's illegal in Germany, apparently.)

I expect we can't complain because we probably ticked the "I agree to all your terms and conditions" box.
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Pixelation, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:10am

Does Sony advertise the ability to run Linux on the PS3?

This is one case where I actually hope Sony wins if there is a lawsuit.
I can't believe I just said that, but it seems like the unintended consequences would be bad.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:11am

Re:
Actually it already is in cars, HDTVs (preinstalled actually), and calculators, nothing anti-mainstream about it.
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Stuart, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:13am

Re:
Not true. Without the update you will no longer be able to connect to PSN. No online gaming. Add to that that new Blue Ray DVD's that will require the update on the PS3 to play. So. Online gaming on games you currently own - Gone. Ability to purchase and use new games that come out for the PS3 - Gone. Ability to play all new DVD movies that come out - Gone.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:13am

Re: Re:
You can still use your PS3s to run Linux. No one stopping you from doing that.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:14am

Re: Re:
Thanks a lot, but I've already been corrected on that and admitted I was wrong.

But, as I said before, my question still stands.
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Jon Renaut (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:14am

Re: Re: Re:
Neither, I actually found this really great MIT-licensed Python script that totally eliminates the need for fabric softener.
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A Dan (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The home users bought them to use as hobbyist computers and gaming/movie consoles. Why are you treating them as separate groups? These are (or were at the time of purchase) all key features of the console.
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Stuart, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If Sony decides to no longer update the console they have that right. What is being argued here is that they are updating. They are using the update to take what you already have, and if you don't allow them to remove one thing you already have they will remove your ability to play online and watch new movies. There is no upside here. What new ability is this "Update" giving customer anyway?
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C.T., 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:16am

Re: Re:
If you've installed a new OS on your PS3 you can't do any of those things anyways.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:17am

Re: Re: Re:
"But, as I said before, my question still stands."

I think the point is that you can no longer do both at once.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Sony doesn't have to update to add new features either. But you enjoy the fact that it does. "

Sony isn't adding any new features of value. There is no such "enjoyment". From what I saw the main (if not only) purpose of this "upgrade" is to disable the the other OS feature. Plus you can't play new Blu-ray discs - and if you try it trashes your drive even for old ones.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:18am

Re: Re: Re:
Uhm... but can you go back to the regular Sony firmware from the PS3 OS? and if you do go back to the new firmware, can you then go back to Linux once again?
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:19am

Re: Re:
Flaw in your argument is that Sony gets a government rebate because they've specifically argued that it is NOT a gaming platform, but a computer.

Sony can't have their cake and eat it too.
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Patrick Upson, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:19am

Re: Re:
1) You can't do anything with the exploit GeoHot found. He had to literally tear the system apart and applied a higher voltage to the hardware. It has to be done every time the system starts and doesn't always work. What it achives is throwing the system in to a kernel panic allowing him to bypass the hardware security. YOU CANNOT use this to do anything in the system. For that you need the software encryption keys, which would take tons of people, computing power and maybe years to decrypt to do anything useful.

2) This update won't stop hackers. They'll see it as a bigger challenge. Guess what? That's why hackers do what they do because they love a challenge.

I'm a software developer and I use Linux on my PS3 at home for writing apps. It's not my primary machine, but being able to put Linux on the machine was the reason I was one of the first people in line to get one.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
(to continue)

Is it possible to downgrade firmware back to the release that enabled users to put linux on their console? If so, does Sony still offer these downgrades on their website, or must you find them separately?
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I guess I'll repeat my question for you. Sony gives us new features and updates for free. It does not have to do that, but it does.

Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?

If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I guess I'll repeat my question for you. Sony gives us new features and updates for free. It does not have to do that, but it does.

Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?

If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?
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Stuart, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: Re:
Answer to your question. First. This update is adding nothing. Sony has not added any features to the console since it came out. Only bug fixes and removal of features. SCAD - Removed. PS2 backwards compatability - Gone. Linux - Gone. These updates have been for only 2 things. 1. removal of features paid for. and 2. patches for buggy/broken things. So the answer is. Sure. If Sony were only offering to give me something extra in exchange for removing something else? I would be happy to make that choice. Here though there is no real choice. Either I lose what they want to take. Or I lose major already paid for functionality of the system. That is not ok.
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SomeGuy (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'd agree with you more, Ima, if the fact were they were just making you choose between your current static device and future updates. However, if choosing to not update the firmware means you lose current functionality (ie, playing online), then I think there's heavier guilt on Sony's part. There's not saying, "keep what you bought, or choose free upgrades," they're saying, "give up functionality A, or give up functionality B".

Are free upgrades worth the cost? I don't know; I don't think anyone had it explained to them that any functionality Sony decided was no longer "profitable" could be removed without notice or recourse, so no one was able the figure in that "cost" before they bought.
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Patrick Upson, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:25am

Re:
Sony did advertise Linux on the PS3, Yellow dog Linux is the official PS3 version of Linux. I bought my PS3 because it was backward compatible with PS1 and PS2 games and because I could install Linux. I'm a software developer and although the PS3 isn't my primary development machine I do use it for Cell processor development and application testing as well as to play games.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:25am

Re: Re: Re:
If one fails it can no longer be replaced. Consoles in the lab have a hard life so this is likely. In a relatively short time there will not be enough working machines to run the courses.

Actually these machines have been a white elephant anyway precisely because of the DRM which inhibits graphics card access. Without that they are no better for teaching than the old PS2's we had before.

My question remains. Do Sony want folks to be able to learn how to use their kit or not?

If not where do they think the people that write the games that make them money are going to come from?
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"There is no upside here."

God, there is an upside. Free new features and updates. When I bought my PS3 it could not simultaneously run audio out of the optical and the HDMI output at the same time. Sony gave me a free update and now it can. In the old days I would have had to have bought an entirely new PS3. But I got the feature I wanted for free.

So, once again, is this great upside worth the occasional downside of losing a feature not many people used?
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Designerfx (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:26am

welcome to every mmorpg
people don't realize that subscription based gaming is essentially a DRM'd purchase too. When you stop paying you no longer have access, and since you don't own the game they can change things up as they please.
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paul smith, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:27am

Re:
they allowed install of linux as they can then classify the ps3 as a computer and therefore pay less import tax in certain parts of the world. they tried the same with the ps2, but failed miserably as they could not prove that they could use it as a computer.
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PRMan, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:28am

Re: Lawsuit...
Go to small claims court and sue for the price of the console. Sony most likely won't show up and you'll get a summary judgment for the cost of the unit.

Seems fairly simple.
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Yuke, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:28am

Re:
"This is necessary to prevent exploits and multiplayer cheats in case the PS3 gets hacked. "

No, it's not. Games can be patched to remove exploits. The OS/firmware can be patched to disable security holes. A feature need not be removed to retain the integrity of multiplayer games.

Particularly a feature that enabled the machine to run a different OS, in a highly crippled state (only certain operations available, no direct access to the video hardware, etc...). The "Other OS" feature was sandboxed against doing anything remotely connected with gaming on the device. It was interesting in that it allowed you to play around a bit with programming for the Cell, but the video hardware restrictions meant its use as a development platform was incredibly limited. It made an excellent compute node for performance clustering though.

"An incredible small amount of people ever bothered to install Linux on their systems, and if you ask the community of *gamers* who own a PS3, rather than the usual neckbeards who want to install Linux on their washing machines, you will see most people agree it is for the best."

First of all, this is incredibly rude. You could make your point without resorting to namecalling. But you chose not to.

Second, while I'll agree that a minority of PS3 owners used the feature, that's not the point. The point is that Sony sold a product with a given featureset. Folks bought the product based on that featureset. To some of these folks, the ability to run linux on it was a major selling point. They bought the machine not only to run linux, but to play games and movies as well. As was used in Sony's own marketing literature: "It only does everything".

Sony is now taking one of these features away - removing a feature that was advertised. It makes no difference if the current hardware revision supports the feature or not - the past ones did.

As another analogy - what if Maytag suddenly decided that you no longer needed the ability to wash things with hot water, and decided to remotely update all Maytag washing machines to only wash with cold water? Or if your radio manufacturer decided that you may only listen to FM radio, and remotely disabled your ability to listen to AM?

That's what this is about. It's not about "cheating", it's about who owns the devices you purchased with your hard earned money.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Sony isn't adding any new features of value."

When I bought my PS3 it could not simultaneously run audio out of the optical and the HDMI output at the same time. Sony gave me a free update and now it can. In the old days I would have had to have bought an entirely new PS3. But I got the feature I wanted for free.

Do you want to live in a world where you have to buy new hardware every year to get the latest features? Or is it worth getting those features for free even if you occasionally lose unpopular features?
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:30am

Re:
This is necessary to prevent exploits and multiplayer cheats in case the PS3 gets hacked.

Client side security is useless for this. If people want to hack the system they will. The security should be server side where the hackers have no physical access.

Security -wise it would be better if the client platform was completely open - Google Kirchoff's principle if you don't believe me.
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:Lobo Santo (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:30am

Re: Re: Re: GRUB!
Sir, I suspect that particular application requires the Grub2 beta...
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Hulser (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re:
Flaw in your argument is that Sony gets a government rebate because they've specifically argued that it is NOT a gaming platform, but a computer.

I think my argument is still valid; it's just that Sony would have to choose which one was more important, some tax benefit or the potential for a class action lawsuit.
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PRMan, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:33am

Re:
Yes, it's prominently written on the box.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"If one fails it can no longer be replaced."

Who says Sony has a duty to continuing building and selling stuff you want to buy? There are plenty of things in my life I can no longer replace. That's a fact of life.

"Do Sony want folks to be able to learn how to use their kit or not?"

I cannot answer for Sony nor do I care about your question as it does not affect my life at all.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:33am

Re: Re:
Whoops = wrong spelling - should be Kerckhoff's principle
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A Dan (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
They couldn't really be replaced before, either. The slim models (which are all they're making now) already didn't allow Other OS installation.
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Justin, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:34am

Re: Re:
You know how I know you're full of it?

One, if you're using them for programing in a classroom setting, I doubt you need any firmware updates unless you're wasting your institutions cash for some free between class gaming.

Secondly, I'm pretty sure if you were legit you could have gotten DEV kits from Sony for that purpose that didn't need to be hacked to be used as teaching tools.

But sure make outrageous statements on the internet how taking away a feature because a prominent hacker announced he used this feature to circumvent security measures in the system.

If anything there'd be a class action lawsuit if Sony did nothing while the hacker community started modding systems and hacking games to grief paying consumers with wall hacks and the like.

Had the hacker not practically made a press release about cracking the PS3 this wouldn't be happening. Sony knows how much money they lost on PSP because of the hacking/homebrew community.

Games companies don't profit on hardware, so you can't use that strawman. The gaming community knows this, and they also know hacking a system to play "backup" games is really playing pirated games.

I considered installing Linux at one point, but then remembered I'd rather play games on it... If this cuts down on cheaters and griefers on PSN, all the better.
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Ima Fish (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"I'd agree with you more, Ima"

I'm not saying I agree with it. But for right now it sort of makes sense to me. I just put the question out there to get contrary opinions on it. Thanks for your input.
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crade (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:34am

This is the way of the future. Not only that, but in the future as soon as sony says it doesn't want you to use a feature anymore, it will be illegal to use it.
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PSP Man, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:35am

Linux Ps3
Personally, I don't use linux on Ps3. I do have a slight issue with them taking the ability away as I liked to have the option. Unless this firmware is going to give me an option equal to the one they are taking away (by equal I mean no additonal cost) ::(*&#$(#$ 3d Games and Viewing Gimmicks:: I don't agree with this. On the other hand I don't use it so why am I complaining? Don't sell me a computer that can run multiple os's for 300-600 bucks then strip that away. Yeah I hacked my PSP 1000 to do free games, you know what Sony, It made me want to buy a PSP 3001 model and purchase some of my favorite games. Imagine that.
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what, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's not about getting free updates and sacrificing other things for it... Sony literally sold the PS3 as also having the ability to install another OS on it. BIG FEATURE here. "We don't block you like Microsoft" Basically, this was a factor in what made me decide to buy PS3. Now they're taking that away. Disappointing and I hope they take back that decision to do so.
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Mijestic, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:37am

Re:
Do you mean the EULA that you can't read or agree to until AFTER you've made a purchase?
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:38am

Re: Re:Kerckhoff
Quote from Wikipedia

"Any security system depends crucially on keeping some things secret. However, Kerckhoffs' principle points out that the things which are kept secret ought to be those which are least costly to change if inadvertently disclosed."

Keeping the secret things on the client side is stupid because

1) The "enemy" has physical access

2) If the system fails all the users have to have their equipment modified. If you are unlucky this may not be possible via a download.

If you keep all the secret stuff in the server then security failure is less likely and cheaper if it occurs.

Sony got themselves into a hole and now they keep digging.

There are after all plenty of PC based online games - running on (relatively) open hardware.
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Hulser (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:39am

Re: Re: Re:
You can't do anything with the exploit GeoHot found.

I think that as long as there is a non-zero chance that something could possibly be used to cheat, it's Sony's responsibility to address it. In this case, I think it's just as much about the perception of the ability to cheat than the actual likelihood.

I'm a software developer and I use Linux on my PS3 at home for writing apps. It's not my primary machine, but being able to put Linux on the machine was the reason I was one of the first people in line to get one.

OK, but when you decided to put Linux on it, didn't you do so with the understanding that you might not be able to use it for its primary purpose i.e. playing games? I don't own a PS3, so I'll admit I don't know all of the details, but as an outside observer, it seems that this is a fair tradeoff.
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AnShLv, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:39am

It is a normal thing to me. As long as you stay connected over the Internet to the vendor's services, you agree to be controlled this or that way. And our life is just another workaround for stuff they invent to complicate our lives.
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Trevor, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:41am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If they wouldn't upgrade the software features for free, then they would be losing money in one of the following ways:

a) If you would need to buy a different piece of hardware in order to get what is essentially just a software upgrade, very few people would be upgrading because of the costs involved. Even if a considerable proportion of people would buy the new version, having multiple versions out in the wild would fragment the user base because you can bet that there would be software incompatibilities between versions.

b) If people would want a new feature which could be added just using software and Sony wouldn't implement it, the users would migrate to a different console which offered that feature.

So, free software updates are absolutely essential to maintaining an uniform (meaning non-fragmented) large user base. It's not a matter of them doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a matter of survival on the market.

When they come in and start removing features, then they are actively defrauding the people that bought the hardware in order to use those features. There is no excuse for that.

Saying that "If you don't let us remove features you already have then we won't be adding new ones either" is similar to putting a gun to your own head and saying that if you're not allowed to cripple someone else then you'll blow your own brains out. Most sane people would react to that by saying "Go ahead! Entertain me! I haven't seen anybody commit suicide in a while."
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A Dan (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:41am

Re: welcome to every mmorpg
PSN is free, not subscription-based.
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sondun2001 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:41am

Re: Re: Re:
wrong, when you exit linux it boots up the XMB again, it doesn't replace the PS3 OS, it just adds linux.
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cseiter (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:42am

Backwards compatability?
"SCAD - Removed. PS2 backwards compatability - Gone." Does that mean no PS2 compatability or is it just limiting the games? I haven't bought one yet, and I'd hate for the one selling point to me that is the most important to be gone.
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Anon, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:47am

Re:
Here come the apologists...
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The Le, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:48am

lawsuits
This is clear a bait-and-switch scenario, and there are many state laws against this sort of thing. Yes, there will be lawsuits, and yes there should be.
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Rekrul, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I guess I'll repeat my question for you. Sony gives us new features and updates for free. It does not have to do that, but it does.

Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?

If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?

Why does it have to be a question of one or the other? There is no valid reason that the Other OS feature has to be removed, other than that Sony doesn't want it on the machines anymore. They're not getting rid of it because it conflicts with some great feature, or to free up needed space in the firmware, they're getting rid of it because they want to limit what users can do with the systems. Just like how Sony keeps updating the firmware and in some cases, the hardware, of the PSP to lock out homebrew games and programs, such as emulators.

The new firmware isn't going to provide any new features for users. Nor will new games require some feature that only the new firmware will provide. New games won't work on un-updated machines because they will be specifically programmed to check the firmware version and fail if they don't find the latest version. They will do this as a way of blackmailing people into accepting the "update".
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Anon, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:48am

Re: Re:
And here's reductio ad absurdum. I think straw man must not be far behind.
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Trevor, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, it's impossible to downgrade the PS3's firmware since version 2.10... maybe even since 2.01 (we're now at 3.21).
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weneedhelp (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:51am

Im a little sheep ill do what you say.
Say you bought a 500 hp corvette. Chevy decides to "update" the computer and de-tunes it to 350 HP.

Say you bought a 3 GHz Dual quad core MAC and apple decides to "update" it to run at 2.5?

Say you bought an IPhone...he he he. Not a good example.

Although most of you are like so what, only because it does not interest you, you need to realize that if you do not resist this kind of control, together, you may loose a features/functions that you love. Now its Linux; What will it be tomorrow?

Its not about if you are interested or not, but why allow some corporation come in and rape your equipment?
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:51am

in other news ...
Ford has provided a firmware update which improves fuel economy 15%. Although, they have also realized that drug smugglers may use the trunk to transport illegal materials, so during the f/w upgrade process, Ford will fill in your trunk with cement to prevent you from using this feature.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:52am

Re:
"I guess I'll repeat my question for you. Sony gives us new features and updates for free. It does not have to do that, but it does.

Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?

If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?"

I will go ahead and answer this question you seem to think will change everything. Yes, I would rather Sony put out some sort of Sony 3.X revision every time there is an update. It seems like that would be more fair, and they already have in some ways. Think of this, in 5 years, they have removed 4 features. Two from hardware, two from software. (PS2 Enabling Hardware, Memory Card Readers, PS2 Software Emulation, and now Other OS.)

Of course, if Sony had done that, physically released consoles every year, with features removed each time, and saying they will cease supporting the previous one, people would be up in arms, AS THEY SHOULD BE. However, it would at least be more honest.

This said, I would rather go back to buying a console every 3-5 years then have to worry about the requirements of always connected. Lets not forget that for a day you couldn't play the PS3 at all due to a connectivity problem, even offline games.

What is to keep Sony from releasing an 'Update' that kills the system at End of Life, to force people to the PS4? Or shutdown the server and just break any game that has these 'free and kind updates' that prevented them from playing earlier this year?

Public backlash? That did not stop them from removing PlayStation 2 Functionality, or the Other OS function. So once again, yes, I would rather go back to the days I purchased a NES or Genesis, and could play any game out of the box for the next 4+ years without fear of the company suddenly giving the middle finger to me.

Then again, I am not properly filled with awe in our corporate overloads giving updates for free.
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Steve, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:54am

If anyone's looking for anecdotal evidence of why anyone would want Linux on their PS3, here's mine: I used it to rip (legally purchased) Blu-Rays. Then I'd transfer the ISOs over the network to my box, and strip out the DRM so I can watch them where I want.

It sucks that I'm gonna have to ditch that feature. Now, instead, I'll have to buy a BD-ROM drive.
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M-H, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:54am

Re: Re:
Just noting, I forgot to add a name.
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senshikaze (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:58am

Re:
so i lose my rights as a consumer because someone, somewhere, may get to play free games on their ps3.

I am so glad we got that cleared up. it is refreshing to know my rights aren't worth shit to either a large multinational company or to other people who are getting ass fucked as well.
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harbingerofdoom (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:58am

Re: Re: Re:
the only valid point you made was the fact that they should be working on dev kits.

other than that you left a giant steaming pile of crap on the carpet.
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Danny, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:58am

Re: Re:
Yes that one. Forgot the sarcasm tags.

Point being do you think Sony is going to let something like not being able to read and agree to the EULA until AFTER purchase stop them from trying to smack any lawsuits down with it?
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M-H, 31 Mar 2010 @ 8:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"OK, but when you decided to put Linux on it, didn't you do so with the understanding that you might not be able to use it for its primary purpose i.e. playing games?"

I can see this answer as no. I would answer as no, the Other OS was shown to coexist with the game playing. The only restriction, is you lose some HD space, however, since you can manually upgrade the Hard Drive, that removes the only issue as far as I am aware of. After all, up to now updates have been flowing, and Games and Other OS lived together in harmony. The only time I ever seen something where the two would have to be separate, was yesterday when I saw the post that said "If Linux is important to you, don't update your system and buy a new one for gameplay."
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John, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00am

Re:
Are you joking, for the best? I'm a gamer, I never used the other OS, but I find it extremely offensive that Sony would take away a feature that I paid for whether I use it or not. What's next, they take away bluetooth keyboard support because it's easier to hack with a keyboard. Noting stopping them from doing that, and that is something I use in gaming. I may not use Other OS, but this is a terrible precident if Sony is allowed to get away with this.
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R. Miles (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00am

To ImaFish:
In reading your comments, it appears you favor this decision for the trade-off of better features. However, I've a question for you:

What if the next upgrade takes away those very features it just gave you, like the audio through HDMI? Would you care then?

While it's been estimated that less than 2% of users have Linux installed, Sony's ability to take it away without just cause is an idiotic decision.

Personally, I'm glad I held off buying this console. While the updates have provided additional enhancements, it shocks me to think anything giveth by Sony, it can taketh.

Damn, I'm really sick of all this software crap, whether it be on a PC or a game console. I'm about ready to go back to pencil and paper. No one can take those items from me, or dictate what I can do with them.

Screw all these companies anymore. The benefits are now being overshadowed by their inability to relate to consumers with DRM and "other security issues".

Chess, anyone?
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Danny, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00am

Re: Re:
The "anti-mainstream" crack was at people who think not using a mainstream OS like Apple OS or Windows means they are hip and cool and sh!t.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00am

Hmmm...
All your PS3 are belong to us!
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azuravian (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00am

Re: Re: Re:
Even playing offline could be a problem in the future. I was sold I console that would play PS3 games. Future PS3 games might require a certain firmware version (or higher), thereby forcing me to update. You could have someone saying they were willing to forgo all future updates and features in order to keep this one feature, but then the basic functionality (playing PS3 games) would eventually break.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:04am

Re: Re:
Better hold onto that one for dear life. The new models are already down two of those features.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If a company that sells you a car, sends you a new pine freshener for no charge, are they allowed to take away one of your tires at any time they wish?
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think that as long as there is a non-zero chance that something could possibly be used to cheat, it's Sony's responsibility to address it. In this case, I think it's just as much about the perception of the ability to cheat than the actual likelihood.

There's a non-zero chance that Anything and Everything can be used to cheat. So they should remove controllers, memory cards... oh yeah, let's remove the discs too, they could be used to cheat. Somehow. There's always a chance.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What new feature are you talking about? There are no new features here...just new DRM updates and patches.

An update does not provide new functionality. It provides a fix on the existing software. Removing a feature is not a fix, and it is not a new feature.

It would be like if you paid someone to do some landscaping on your property. They do the work and you like it. But a few months later they came to do some maintenance, and they remove some of the trees they planted for you....b/c they didn't like them any more. It doesn't matter that you paid for them and that you like them, they just took them and called it maintenance.

Perhaps not the best analogy...but I hope you get my point.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:18am

Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
Every time Microsoft issue a security patch, they prevent you doing things with "your" OPERATING SYSTEM that you were able to do before.

Fixed that for you. Last time I checked, Microsoft doesn't update your firmware making it impossible to install pirated software.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
Or drawing swastikas.
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Gamer, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:21am

I was not being rude, just sarcastic. Linux zealots always come out of the woodwork in situations like this, even though they don't even own the product in the first place. If you find the analogy rude, I suggest you buy a razor. Don't put Linux on it though, it might have a different kernel and shave your acne instead of your neckbeard.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:23am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And what if Sony decided to take that feature from you? Would you humbly accept it as what Sony wants, or would you be angry b/c they have taken away something you have come to use and enjoy?

And I would argue, that no, you didn't get it for free. You paid a very large sum of money to Sony for their hardware and incomplete software. And you paid it with the expectation that there would be updates.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"God, there is an upside. Free new features and updates."

No there isn't - I'l quote from Geohot's comment on Sony's own blogpost:

"Your blog post doesn't list positive reasons for upgrading like I think most users expect. Instead it lists things you will lose if you don't upgrade. Seriously?"

You can check this on the Sony blog here

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/
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snowburn14, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"I cannot answer for Sony nor do I care about your question as it does not affect my life at all."

Then, maybe, don't bother responding to it? Just a thought...

I for one am rather annoyed that a feature on my PS3, which was (as I recall) advertised, will now be removed. And for those saying I can choose not to update to keep OtherOS, I would then lose MULTIPLE advertised features, so your point is moot.

I suspect, though, that this will only affect the casual Linux users. Something tells me the hardcore followers will find a workaround before half the user base even gets an update notification. At the very least, I would think you could still use an old firmware download, or just backup your hard drive pre- and post-update, and go back and forth between the two as needed. Not the most convenient of setups, but doable if you absolutely MUST be able to use new and old features. I had thought their competition with Microsoft would keep their Linux support going, but oh well...

I've been hesitant to buy anything Sony-related since the rootkit fiasco, and the PS3 will likely be the last piece of hardware I buy from them.
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DH's love child, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:27am

Re: To ImaFish:
You know, there are days when I fell EXACTLY the same way!

Knight to King-bishop-3
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senshikaze (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:28am

the worse part?
THIS EXPLOIT DOESN'T CREATE A HOLE FOR PIRCACY!

sony is doing this purely because they hate their customers.

see:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3hacked-article?page=1
http: //rdist.root.org/2010/01/27/how-the-ps3-hypervisor-was-hacked/
http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/0 1/heres-your-silver-platter.html

sony shills should actually read what the hell has been done instead of just screaming that only a small few will be affected and that sony is in the right. they aren't.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"When I bought my PS3 it could not simultaneously run audio out of the optical and the HDMI output at the same time. Sony gave me a free update and now it can. "

It always could - Sony just disabled that feature in the initial release so they could give the illusion of a freeby.

These software upgrades are not adding scarce value - if only Sony had provided an open platform you would have been able to add that "feature" yourself.
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Tim, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If a company that sells you a car, sends you a new pine freshener for no charge, are they allowed to take away one of your tires at any time they wish? This is more akin to them taking away your cigarette lighter for the pine freshener.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I cannot answer for Sony nor do I care about your question as it does not affect my life at all.

It does actually - because all those games that the people who would have learnt to code for the PS3 would have written won't exist!
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senshikaze (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:36am

Re: Re: Re:
nah, just smarter.
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:38am

Re: Re: Re:
Secondly, I'm pretty sure if you were legit you could have gotten DEV kits from Sony for that purpose that didn't need to be hacked to be used as teaching tools.

The Linux installation isn't a "hack".

The Dev kits from Sony are targeted at game studios and cost way more than an academic institution can afford. In fact you have to be a development studio to buy them (ie have a contract with Sony, sign all the NDA's etc etc etc) - they won't sell to anyone else.

Next time you weigh in check your facts first.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:44am

Re: DUM FISHY
What about having an intelligent debate instead of just anonymously insulting someone else? Calling a complete stranger a fucktard in any way adds depth and meaning to the discussion.
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Tyanna, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:46am

I honestly hope that it's an April Fools joke like so many ppl have been saying. If not, Sony is making a very stupid move.
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Hulser (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Reductio ad absurdum
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Pitabred, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, it's a little more basic than that. They're saying "Keep the radio or the glovebox, but you can't have both". Neither are "essential" features, but it's still something that is complete bullshit.
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what, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Upon reading more info on Sony's decision to do this, if the hack is in fact a proven loophole, then I can't disagree to making sure the loophole is closed. I'd rather be safe than sorry.
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Hephaestus (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:18am

Thats not a problem with the PS3 ... its a feature ... ;)
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nunya_bidness, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:21am

About Time
I am happy sony is finally removing the ability to run Linux on playstations, no self respecting Linux user would use sony crap anyway.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
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Travis, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:25am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Thats like saying we should remove the engines from all cars since there's a non-zero chance that people will use them to speed or cause accidents.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:29am

Re: Re: Lawsuit...
Good luck collecting on that S.J.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:35am

uh, you bought the ps3 and the firmware version that happened to be on it. sony is under no obligation to offer you future firmware upgrades. when you accept a firmware upgrade, you are making a series of agreements with sony...including allowing them to modify the functionality of the device you own.
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TriZz, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:37am

My question is -- the scientists and hobbyists that are using Linux on their PS3 -- can they also play games or Blu-Ray discs?

Because for those people...the ones who install Linux and can't play Blu-Ray or PS3 Games...then not updating seems to be a non-issue.

Use it for your supercomputing...then buy an unaltered PS3 for playing games/Blu-Ray.

If you can do both at the same time (run Linux, play discs/games) then yeah...that's kinda fucked up.
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clay, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:37am

Re:
It's not just new features, If you don't get the update, you can't sign into PSN at all. So games you could play online before, you can't play online anymore.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:44am

Well...
The whole talk about trading new features for losing old ones doesn't make much sense in the end. Sony after all benefit in multiple ways from having the ability to provide you "new" features which while making it seem like they are being benevolent is more about their own bottom line.

e.g.

- Allowing them to release to market sooner without having to implement all the features they perhaps want/could as it can always be corrected later
- Bug fixing obviously
- Staying competitive, for example implementing new bluray standards so people still keep buying the ps3 instead of going to a standalone
- Free market research, for example the trophies and in game XMB which could be argued should have been there from the get go (re: Xbox 360) but only implemented after seeing how much the users wanted them.

The list could go on. IMO none of this matters much, when the PS3 was released they didn't market it with "sometime in the future we will add extra features" as you could then get sued over not providing them (re: Vista Ultimate Extras) but they certainly did advertise its Linux capability which they are removing as a pre-emptive measure in case something is actually done with the hack. Tbh from what I know of what can and cannot be done, this is more about people stealing downloaded movie content then piracy of games.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:48am

They came first..
...for the PS2 backwards compatability,
and I didn't speak up because I didn't play PS2 games.

THEN THEY CAME for the SCAD player,
and I didn't speak up because I didn't use the SCAD player.

THEN THEY CAME for the memory card readers,
and I didn't speak up because I didn't use memory cards.

THEN THEY CAME for the other OS feature,
and I didn’t speak up because I didn't use Linux.

THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:54am

Re:
"sony is under no obligation to offer you future firmware upgrades."

They are under an obligation to ensure their product works as advertised at the time of sale. Part of the reason for future firmware upgrades is to fix things that do not function properly that prevent their product from working as advertised to begin with. If their product works perfectly as advertised to begin with, with no bugs whatsoever, then I would agree, they are under no obligation to provide future firmware upgrades. Otherwise, they absolutely are, at least to fix their mistakes.

and if those future firmware upgrades are required for existing functionality to work properly then those future firmware upgrades better not intentionally remove functionality.
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Michial Thompson, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:00am

Before fools blast rumors
Has anyone actually confirmed this is anything more than an April Fools Joke being played?

The closest source I have personally seen for this rumor is a post on a Sony sponsored forum.

It's been pointed out that most of the updates for the PS3 have been released early in the week, this one is 4/1 which is a Thursday.

About the closest thing I have seen to lend credibility to this story is that the PS3 Slim does not have the option, but then it also doesn't have the option for PS2 games either, and it's release never touted the ability to install any other operating systems either.

My guess is that the likelyhood is pretty high that this is nothing more than a joke...
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:02am

This is what Sony does. This is what they've ALWAYS done.
If you "Buy" a Sony product this is what you SHOULD expect.
This is why I NEVER "buy" Sony products. Ever.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What if the next version allowed output through HDMI, optical and component but took away the ability to play blu-ray movies?
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Liquid (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Don't see the issue here. It is Sony's choice to offer their DEV kits so Developers only for a reason. They are in it to make money. You just happen to be a pissed off consumer who feels they have been butt hurt by the corporate machine.

Heck looking at the price of the DEV kit for Sony only costs between 2,000 to 10,000 USD. You must work for a pretty crappy school, because how can a school not afford that? A four year university should be way more than able to afford 30-40 seats of that software.

http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/24/sony-introduces-a-new-ps3-dev-kit-for-bargain-shoppi n-developers/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/03/sony-announces-lower-cost-ps3-dev-tools.ar s

You have serveral news sources saying the same thing. SO your information is completely off bucko.
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Michial Thompson, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:11am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Honestly, there is a more likely chance that someone has already figured out to use Linux as a NAT router for the INTERNET, then write an app to intercept the packets from the PS3 and alter them for cheating....

And to be totally honest, that would be a bunch easier and less risky that opening your PS3, shocking a chip during power on to confuse it, then boot to another OS and run hacks to allow you to do something that probably doesn't even allow you to play any games anyway.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:14am

Re: They came first..
That should be SACD, not SCAD. Really wish there was an edit feature for comments...
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:17am

Re: They came first..
Godwin's. That's the thread people! Debate over.
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fuzzychaos, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:23am

Re: Re: Re:
In the old days I would buy, say, a radio from a company that plays both AM and FM. What Sony is doing is like disabling the AM on that radio, because more people listen to FM and some guy figured out how to make a microphone that let people broadcast their voice over the AM signal which was clearly not what they intended.
Being able to use Linux on the PS3 was a feature that was sold with the unit, it doesn't matter who used it or if a vast majority would never install it, it was a feature.
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Mark Fiorani, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:23am

Re: Silly "User" !
Sony is Japanese.
Would you mean corporate Japan?
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some guy, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:28am

@ Ima Fish "I guess my point is that if you want new features to be added to your electronics completely for free, is it too much to ask that sometimes unprofitable features can be removed?"

It's not an unprofitable feature b/c it was one of the systems selling points. People paid for the feature with the system. But you know I'm sure there's some loophole in the fine print that let's Sony off the hook.
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Yakko Warner, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:29am

Re: Re: Re:
If anything there'd be a class action lawsuit if Sony did nothing while the hacker community started modding systems and hacking games to grief paying consumers with wall hacks and the like.

Huh? When has a console maker been sued over this? Because modders/hackers have been messing with online console games since consoles went online.
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Terrance, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:32am

Re: Re:
RFLMAO!!!!
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cad, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:36am

All this means is that somoene will come along with a firmware switcher(hardware that allows 2 physical nand chips so that you can keep the 3.15 fw and use the newer ones too). which means then what will happen is that somoene will start writing custom firmware, and then evntually, with the earlier exploitable firmware, we'll have hacked ps3's. and sony will only have themselves to blame.
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Danny (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:44am

Two questions; two sides
The Sony bashing here isn't helpful to intelligent consideration of the situation.

I have a thought and a question.

Thought: Perhaps we don't want to say that vendors are not permitted to remove features post-sale because sometimes removing features will make sense to do. Examples:
- if a feature inadvertantly creates a security risk;
- if a feature creates a situation such that technical support of the feature would bankrupt the company (and make any future support for the product disappear).

So before one rushes off to say that companies shouldn't be able to do this, one ought to address how to differentiate from situations where perhaps they should be able to do this.

Question: Even if Sony is legally permitted to remove features post sale, in this case it is completely unclear to me why they would want to.

As best I can tell, they have already sold several thousand extra units because customers have figured out how to repurpose them. If Sony cooperated in promoting how to repurpose PS3s, wouldn't they sell many tens of thousands of additional extra units? If Sony makes $200 wholesale from a unit they reap an extra $1m for every 5,000 more they sell.

Why would they not want to do this?
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Whisk33, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:49am

Re:
Linux is added to the system. It still allowed Blu-Ray and games to be played. NO usability is removed by installing Linux on a ps3.

Linux can also be useful in running an alternative browser since the ps3 browser is blocked by many websites, netflix (discs are available I know), hulu, and some various other sites. Linux offered greater flexibility.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:04pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Seemed to work for the PS2. Mine never updated and it still plays all the games I have for it. Of course I don't have a PS3 so I'm just here to troll.
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Jesse Peden, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:13pm

Does the update remove already installed copies of Linux on a PS3
I read the first 40+ posts and I didn't see anyone ask this, but does the update remove Linux from the PS3's that already have it set up, or does it just prevent people from installing it after the update? Just curious as to how retroactive it really is.
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Benjamin Longo, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:17pm

Re: Re: Re:
"In the old days I'd buy a static product. When some new feature would come out, I'd have to buy an entirely new piece of electronics to get it."

Except that companies didn't perform upgrades that would alienate a portion of the market. It is only now that there is the ability to digitally upgrade without repercussion that this is happening.

For instance VCR's, we had them for years and years and people were able to play their tapes on old and new options. Because people couldn't upgrade for free they didn't try and upgrade the VCR's with minimal features that would essentially bar old VCR's from working with newer tapes.

Also when people bought their PS3's sony said that this was a game system that you could watch Blu-ray's on & install other OS's like Linux on. In addition they touted that it's the best Blu-ray player because you could upgrade it easily so that you're not left in the dust come a new drm upgrade. Never did they say that they would hold such upgrades ransom.

This all kind of reminds me of the reverse of Apple's issues with the iPod touch. They were forced to charge for upgrades due to Accounting practices of giving away new features for free. Shouldn't Sony have to send some cash back if they are removing a feature that they advertised?
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PS3Since06, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:20pm

This feature sold me on the ps3... 360 is looking much better now.
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Anonymous Toke-In, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:21pm

well said, sir!
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Hulser (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, there is a double standard when it comes to applying a principle to a long-existing piece of technology as opposed to a new piece of technology. Half of the stories on TechDirt are about people flipping out about some new technology and wanting to impose some screwed up restriction. For example, the same person that would say that ISPs should be responsible for examining its users' traffic for illegal content wouldn't dream of requiring the phone company to listen in on its customers' phone conversations, yet the principle is the same.

As for "remove the engines", the more appropriate comparison would be to add a device to prevent the car from going over the speed limit. Sure, it seems crazy, but if cars were just being invented today, it would take just hours for someone to seriously suggest that this made sense.
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response, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:23pm

Re:
Because Sony allowed another OS on their system, Hackers had less of an incentive to hack it in the first place. It delayed the hack. It was actually a great move on Sony's part.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:36pm

Re: Two questions; two sides
Sony either loses money or breaks even on consoles. Consoles are loss leaders to sell games.
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Keith Kurson, 31 Mar 2010 @ 12:42pm

Yawn.
It wasn't advertised on the box, and I assume that less than 1% of PS3 owners even know about the other OS feature, much less use it.

You are not required to upgrade your PS3, and you can continue playing games (just not online) without upgrading your firmware.

If you actively use the other OS feature (which I doubt you do) and it matters that much to you, I suggest purchasing a small computer that you can run a unix OS on.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 1:40pm

The Movement Exists
>Isn't it time that someone created a movement to highlight what products you actually own once you've bought them?

Someone has. It's called the Right to Repair Act, it's centered around motor vehicles and you should let your congress critters know you strongly support it.

http://www.righttorepair.org/
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DMNTD, 31 Mar 2010 @ 1:42pm

Jokes
I think this is the punchline, the joke was what they claimed to offer from the start and I it seemed they fell into their own joke at that point. Like a corporation falling for its own HYPE, happens ALL the time.

So after they realized that they can't hold up to the idea that they are offering a home entertainment system they start turning the keys to the off position so they don't have to actually do anything anymore and charge the same later.

So the joke was on us...and that's probably why I don't have a ps3..good day.
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Michael, 31 Mar 2010 @ 1:48pm

Re: Think about it a little more
The flaw in this: "they actually lose money because they're selling consoles that will not play any games" is that in fact, they are selling consoles they would not sell otherwise. Supercomputer operators (professional or amateur) didn't purchase the hardware for its ability to play games. So in fact, the additional feature has been profitable by virtue of selling to a larger market demographic. The better critique comes from the comments below. It was Sony's responsibility to think about the possible ramifications of the feature and cross-check that with a cost-benefit analysis of including the feature at all. Does it cost more to develop than the additional sales it will generate? Easy enough. Further, what other ways can this feature "cost" Sony something? They didn't look that far ahead, so they're reversing a decision, mid-product, rather than later on (PS4?). Yet, the likelihood that those supercomputer operators will need the _new_ features of future firmware releases is low/unknown. It just inhibits future users from traveling this heretofore easier path (than using old firmware and hotwiring the device).
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Richard (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 2:19pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Considering the relatively short life of the h/w before it is superseded even $2000 is way too much, I'm not in the US and we can't charge our students $20k/year fees. We aren't a top school but in the UK this makes no difference to the funding - everyone gets the same support and charges the same fee. $2000/seat for one or two modules in the course doesn't stack up economically.

Plus you don't (at present) get the devkit if you aren't a developer who is in a position to sign all the requisite agreements. Sony did reveal a planned "academic devkit" last summer - but it was in "closed beta" and so far it hasn't emerged. At the time the Sony spokesman said "Of course universities can use Linux to program on the PS3" Now that is going but the replacement hasn't arrived.

"You just happen to be a pissed off consumer who feels they have been butt hurt by the corporate machine. "

No I'm a disinterested observer - someone else does our console courses and the result of Sony's lack of support was a switch to Xbox.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 2:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
it's more simple. You keep your penis or balls, not both.
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vivaelamor (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:06pm

Re:
"If you find the analogy rude, I suggest you buy a razor. Don't put Linux on it though, it might have a different kernel and shave your acne instead of your neckbeard."

To a casual observer it might seem that you are using the excuse of humour to sling insults instead of arguments. This is fortunate, as it highlights the lack of argument. Keep it up!

Here's some suggestions: geeks have small penises; nerds are weak except in nerd rage; glasses are for those who haven't heard of contact lenses. And those are just the ones that are as funny as the jibes so far, try hard enough and people might not even cringe.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:07pm

Re:
"
It will not limit what you can presently do with the PS3. It can limit what you can do in the future.
"

Wrong. Without getting the firmware update, you'll no longer be able to play online. Something which you can already do with the PS3 before the update.
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vivaelamor (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"nah, just smarter."

Yeah, it's funny to think of people labeling Linux as the choice for poseurs. One of my first projects with Linux was building a Linux From Scratch system, I'd worry for the sanity of anyone who thinks that is 'hip'. My desire to write 'poseur' on the lid of my netbook is increasing with every other post here though.
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Jason, 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:26pm

PS3? Seriously? Isn't that console 5 years old with hardware that a $250 netbook puts to shame? Who gives a crap.
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gsdhdhs, 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:39pm

Re:
no, actually, it's nothing like that at all
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Anon, 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:49pm

I can honest say I don't give a shit. Did anyone really buy a PS3 to install linux on it? rofl
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Joe C., 31 Mar 2010 @ 3:50pm

Do Demonstrations Opposing Sony
What should the geeks do? Would a geek hold a protest sign? Would a geek lay down in front of a bulldozer? What can millions of geeks connected to high speed data networks around the world do if we never leave Mom's basement?
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Josh, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So, according to your logic... in the future, if Blu-rays, or PS3 games become unprofitable, then Sony has the right to shut that ability off?

If one of your selling points, is the ability to run Linux, and you remove that ability, because you don't think it provides values,then you should be obligated to provide a refund for to unsatisfied customers.

Any future update provides value for current and future customers. So that portion is irrelevant to removing linux support.
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slander (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:02pm

Re: Re: welcome to every mmorpg
Yet
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slander (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:04pm

Re: Im a little sheep ill do what you say.
Say you bought an IPhone...he he he. Not a good example.
Ooh, that's gonna leave a mark...
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e-d@wg, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:05pm

Re: lawsuit
you are a genius. that is EXACTLY what will happen.
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Gamer, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:05pm

Re: Re:
I am using absurd jokes because I am sick of people jumping in to complain about things they don't fully understand. A PS3 is a closed system by definition, and if this is what it takes to prevent the possibility of hacking/exploiting online, so be it.

I am not saying I am happy with this or that it won't be bad for Sony to do it. But leave the Linux penguins on Antarctica for a while and understand that what gamers care about is a fair gaming environment above the possibility of compiling kernels, choosing between GRUB or LILO or doing whatever it is that Linux zealots do.
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slander (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:08pm

Re: Do Demonstrations Opposing Sony
Really big Zerg rush?
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:16pm

Awesome, this is the last Sony product I ever buy.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:40pm

Re: Re: They came first..
Oh really? Where did I mention Hitler? Sticking feathers up your butt doesn't make you a chicken.
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anon, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:51pm

Re: Re: Where's the FTC?
NWS serves the public interest
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 4:53pm

Jeep Recall
Jeep is following suit and recalling all Wranglers. They are removing 4WD due to the fact that they cause more damage to the vehicle if used and most people don't go off road anyways. If you don't do the recall you void your warranty.
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BearGriz72 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 5:22pm

Re: Re: Re:
"Point being do you think Sony is going to let something like not being able to read and agree to the EULA until AFTER purchase stop them from trying to smack any lawsuits down with it?"

Stop them from trying? NO it won't. But succeeding maybe, the good news is there is a lot of debate as to whether an EULA/ToS type agreement is even enforceable, especially if it could not be read before purchase I for one have been looking to purchase an older (and I am sure it would be used -- OH NoES!) PS3, because of this functionality. I am a PC Gamer. I was looking into getting some console titles but wanted some real utility from the console. Thank you Sony, for reinforcing my feeling that console gaming is a worthless bag of Sh!t, you will not be getting any of my gaming budget now or in the future.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 5:38pm

Re: Re:
Except games come with firmware updates too.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 5:43pm

Re: Re: Lawsuit...
you... have no idea how the legal system works in matters like this do you?
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BearGriz72 (profile), 31 Mar 2010 @ 5:44pm

Re: Yawn.
It WAS advertised on the box, and I Know that 2-5% of PS3 owners use the other OS feature & almost all of them (that bought the original PS3 before the slim came out) know about it.

You are required to upgrade your PS3 so and you can continue playing games online, or purchase new games. Without upgrading your firmware existing games will stop working properly

If you actively use the other OS feature (which many people do) and it does matter, purchasing a small computer that you can run a **nix OS on is not what you paid for, but you may have to anyway.
*** There FTFY

I can hear the lawyers warming up their pens now!
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 5:55pm

old news, sony has been doing this since psp when roms and emus came out
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Reasonable Guy, 31 Mar 2010 @ 6:17pm

You didn't actually buy what you thought you did. You bought a box of silicon from Sony and are renting features from them.
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Matt Ezell, 31 Mar 2010 @ 6:44pm

I emailed them with my complaint and basically got a canned response that the EULA allowed them to do this, but that they would make management aware of my concerns... I quite literally was drawn to the purchase of my PS3 (MY 3RD CONSOLE) large in part because of the OtherOS functionality - I think I should at least be entitled to a 40-50% refund on my initial $500 cost (160GB Uncharted model).
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CC, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:00pm

SeekInterracial DOT COM=== A GOOD CLUB FOR SEEKING INTERRACIAL ROMANCE!! PURSUIT YOUR OWN HAPPINESS!! JOIN FOR FREE NOW!!
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Reductio ad absurdum

Not at all. He's quite correct, and I think you just don't like how literally he's taking it. "Non-Zero" is such an infinitely wide space that's it's useless for generalizing. You really mean a "reasonable" chance, and of course what a person finds reasonable is a matter of opinion.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
To elaborate further, "If there's a non-zero chance of X then we must do Y to prevent it" is a statement that could be used to argue any point of view with equally duplicitous validity. It's useless because you abandon reasoning about the actual chance of something occurring.

This is the same logic that fuels absurd "zero tolerance" situations in schools. "Well, he COULD have used that potato peeler to murder another student by jamming it into his carotid artery, therefore we had to call the police and suspend him and close all schools in the district for the day."
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Who Cares, 31 Mar 2010 @ 7:50pm

Wah Wah Wah
Who cares, does anyone actually have it installed? I purchased it and thought about it for a day. Then said why the heck would I install something, buy a keyboard and mouse just to have a worse experience then i would have just dual booting it off a PC. Give me a break, do you not remember Microsoft killing the original XBox because people were using them for servers instead of buying games. It would be like Toyota reducing the price of cars as long as customers have the intent on buying gas and getting its service at only Toyota dealerships and finding out that they were installing electric generators and batteries to bypass the agreement. Now Toyota and it's stock holders are demanding a fix before they run out of business.

I agree with Sony, I already got burnt by Microsoft because jackbutts ruined a great thing causing Microsoft to make a sound business decision.
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Anonymous Coward, 31 Mar 2010 @ 9:00pm

Re: Re:
I know. Silly joke on my part.
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Ross, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:01pm

Re:
Sorry - but I agree you haven't thought this out yet.

It -WILL- limit what you do with your ps3 currently because you will no longer be able to get online to play multiplayer, purchase games or get new BluRay encyprtion.

Some games that require online checking of your user account will no longer be functional.

It is an immediate loss.

The purpose of the otherOS was several fold. One, to advertise the cell processors, to appeal more strongly to the geek class of gamer, and frankly it initially was probably thought of as a good way to find new uses for the playstation.

And yes it is too much to ask for it to not be removed. I purchased it with an understanding that I could install Linux. And I have.

The exploit is extremely difficult and only a handful of people will even attempt much less do something fruitful with it. It is over reaction, disregard for customer satisfaction and showing off an old crustiness in management that still hasn't comprehended the digital age.
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Ross, 31 Mar 2010 @ 10:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Get real; sony updates have been just this side of unnoticable.
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athe, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
They don't just offer those "free" features and updates out of the goodness of their hearts. I'd say that they are doing it moreso to remain competitive.
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Cheong, 31 Mar 2010 @ 11:25pm

Servers?
@Gamer: It seems that you may never have the chance to visit datacenters. You'll see lots of racks have arrays of PS3s running as (presumably Linux) servers.

But honestly... so users who decide to run Linux on it benefits from firmware upgrades? It seems if you never play PS3 games from it, you lose nothing even if you don't install any new firmwares...
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dads, 1 Apr 2010 @ 12:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
technically they do considering those updates are paid for by the game developers who pay sony to use the playstation home and stores to advertise their products
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Apr 2010 @ 12:29am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It actually does though purely for the fact that they're purely to fix problems with them in the first place and to add things that they meant to have there in teh first place that they promised in the first place

btw this update is bull-shit....It didn't even warn me about it it's just like update to new update so I hit yes and then it said update 3.21 downloaded...so I went online to find out what it was about and now I see this whole forum...thanks for fucking me over sony without legitimately warning me...
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jmaz, 1 Apr 2010 @ 12:33am

Why pick on Sony for such a small infraction when Apple has perfected this whole product marketing process by putting its customers in a state of ignorant consumer's bliss.
Apple with its one-size-fits-all,dictated,chaperone product rental and marketing system is just a tech rental company.Its fans actually think that they own the products that they hold on their hands.So, when questioned Apple simply tells them that they are buying into a life style. Can you imagine the mass confusion if the tether line (iTune, for example) to the mothership Cupertino were to be cut off from under them. On balance, Sony has given us more than it has taken from us. You can not say that about apple.
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Anonymous Coward, 1 Apr 2010 @ 1:25am

Not surprised coming from a company that thinks its ok to infect your PC with rootkits and bad DRM (SecuROM).

BOYCOTT SONY!

I will NEVER buy a blueray player or discs as this will profit SONY

I do not buy any movies produced by SONY

I do not buy music distributed by SONY

If SONY makes 1 cent, I'm not buying.

SONY can DIE IN A FIRE!
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vivaelamor (profile), 1 Apr 2010 @ 3:21am

Re: Re: Re:
"I am not saying I am happy with this or that it won't be bad for Sony to do it. But leave the Linux penguins on Antarctica for a while and understand that what gamers care about is a fair gaming environment above the possibility of compiling kernels, choosing between GRUB or LILO or doing whatever it is that Linux zealots do."

Linux 'zealots' who made use of the fact that Sony had advertised their consoles as also being personal computers; not only advertised but in the case of the PS2 released a 'Linux kit' which included keyboard/mouse/vga adapter. A quote from playstation.com: "There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3™ system to run the Linux operating system. "

In contrast we have you suggesting that only games matter because that's the only feature you use. I presume if they took away the ability to play video, play music, display photos and browse the internet you would be equally vitriolic to those complaining.

I think I'll forgo the jokes and just call you a selfish git.
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CommentingQuick, 1 Apr 2010 @ 6:01am

What I don't like is that they are removing a significant feature because one person was able to get to their hardware, and from what I've read its a very long, complicated process. Why should a bunch of people lose out cause one guy basically re-wired his console? It doesn't even sound like it can be used to cheat in any way. Seriously, the guy had to take a soldering iron to it to do this. Anybody who is willing to do that to their console probably isn't expecting it to still run games after they do. The guy was probably just had an idea and proved it worked, that's all.
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kisune (profile), 1 Apr 2010 @ 6:12am

Re:
Seriously? You think calling a group of people neckbeards isn't rude? Last I checked, I was female, didn't have a neckbeard and still use Linux for everything I can. I agree with most people here and say that its wrong for Sony to remove a feature that sold some people on the console. I personally don't use it, but it still sucks.
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Andrew-David, 1 Apr 2010 @ 7:22am

Oh boohoo.
Quit your goddamn complaining. I own a PS3 and I've loved all the changes they've done so far, they're all for the best and you can clearly see Sony is working really hard to constantly enhance their console. Users always want more but then complain when one single feature is removed. Ingrates.

The PS3 has a lot of other features you can enjoy, and besides, if you wanted to use goddamn Linux, then install it on a computer, not your gaming console.
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vivaelamor (profile), 1 Apr 2010 @ 7:36am

Re: Oh boohoo.
"if you wanted to use goddamn Linux, then install it on a computer, not your gaming console."

Complain to Sony for telling people that it is a computer that runs Linux as well as a gaming console. This isn't about people hacking the device to run Linux, it's about Sony telling them that running Linux is part of the parcel.
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vivaelamor (profile), 1 Apr 2010 @ 7:45am

Re: Does the update remove already installed copies of Linux on a PS3
"I read the first 40+ posts and I didn't see anyone ask this, but does the update remove Linux from the PS3's that already have it set up, or does it just prevent people from installing it after the update? Just curious as to how retroactive it really is."

My understanding is that it would not 'remove' Linux, but it would stop Linux working.
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kushi purac, 1 Apr 2010 @ 8:46am

Nintendo with the same thing with MP3s in the Wii
About 12-18 months I believe Nintendo changed the audio format on its Wii Photo program (you put your images on a SD card along with an Mp3 and then you can view a slideshow of the family pictures along with your fave mp3 tune.

They switched it to AAC I believe.
I remember a lot of friends who had Wii's asking me how to convert mp3s to other formats at around that time.

Amazon does the same, Apple's DNA consists of such douchey gestures, I really hope someone takes one of these companies to court.

Gaming platforms court the non-hardcore gamers with secondary features like wathcing bluray and many things which have nothing to do with the main purpose of the machine; to play games.

You can not tell someone 'buy ours because we not only offer games but also A, B and C" and then later on remove option B.

What those options are is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.
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Anonymous, 1 Apr 2010 @ 9:02am

Re:
It made no business sense, i.e., it doesn't earn them any money and they actually lose money because they're selling consoles that will not play any games.

Actually it did make business sense for Sony to originally sell the PS3 with this feature. Consoles and "PC's" are taxed differently in many parts of the world, and since you "could" install an operating system, the PS3 because a "PC" instead of a console and was taxed less. So, yes, it did allow Sony to make more money.
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random, 1 Apr 2010 @ 8:57pm

/sigh
I, for one, will miss the PS3 Linux install. I'm a professional game developer and I got into the industry in part by writing a real time ray tracer on it.

In actuality, it makes a lot of sense for Sony to keep the homebrew side of it. An open development environment encourages people to play. This would inevitably lead to some of those developers working in the game industry, which would lead more games to be created for the PS3. This, of course, would lead to more money in Sony's pocket. It's smart to keep it *somewhat* open (it is/was currently limited in that only the graphics hardware couldn't be accessed, but you could write to the frame buffer and there are more than enough software renderers out there that are free.)

Also, I think many people are missing a crucial fact (I'm sure Sony is...) The PS3 lasted longer than any other game platform in history before it was finally cracked. The iPhone was out, what, a week before it was broken? Maybe rather than hurting those "few" of us (it's actually quite a substantial number...) that use the PS3 for self education, development, or whatever, perhaps they should hire/contract the guy that broke it to improve the product.
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Sony needs to get sued, 2 Apr 2010 @ 2:52pm

Someone should seriously sue sony, deleting a feature that you purchase to own is not the way to go, what happened to yellow dog linux advertisement for the ps3 you guys cannot deny the fact that you sold your product with this feature.
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Magius, 3 Apr 2010 @ 8:15am

Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
So you are comparing the removal of using ILLEGAL software on my PC to the removal of a very much legal feature on my PS3?

Here bud, I will sell you a gun. I will provide updates and services for the gun, sometimes giving you new features like a laser scope for free. Of course, I will probably remove the hammer down the road, since you might shoot someone with it. Don't worry though! You can still put bullets inside and even press the trigger! I will even give you a tiny speaker so it makes a bang noise, you won't miss a thing.
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schlechtj, 3 Apr 2010 @ 5:39pm

Re: Re: Re:
To answer your question.... Lets say I bought a am/fm radio radio with shortwave. If the government decides that getting news from around the world is dangerous (this is a reality in china they block google now) the company can say we are removing the ability of this radio to get shortwave. Now in order to have the functionality of something I ALREADY BOUGHT, i am going to have to go out and buy a new radio that has the features I ALREADY HAD AND PAID FOR AND MAY BE THE REASON I BOUGHT IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. So NO - removing features is not acceptable. If that's the case... they should let me return that radio and give me my money back not to mention all the trouble I went through.

Now I am going to have to go out and buy a new computer for the kids to do their homework on because NOT playing games or watching a movie is not acceptable to them and buying a new computer is not acceptable to me. Otherwise I would have bought an xbox 360 and a computer in the first place. I would have saved money and the hassle of having to back up all their homework files, pictures etc etc.... before putting on this new stupid update so we can rent movies again. Now I am out the extra money I paid over an xbox. Well now that I think about it, perhaps I'll just go to the video store from now on instead of giving Sony my money. And maybe from now on I'm just going to buy games for the new computer I'm going to have to get the kids. For me, taking the ability of the ps3 to be a computer is like taking my cars ability to drive away. (you didn't need that feature did you??? ya but you can still listen to the radio and honk at people who get too close to you.).
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Goragg, 3 Apr 2010 @ 7:35pm

What is Ford did this?
What is the Ford company distributed workers across the country to remove the AM/FM radio function from a line of their products?
Blatant vandalism.
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Jindo Fox, 6 Apr 2010 @ 9:44am

Unbelievable whining
I know I'm late to the party, but what a lot of crying and whining for the removal of a lame feature that hardly anyone used anyway. The Linux installations didn't get to touch the GPUs, and the PS3 has too little RAM to be a useful workstation.

Features that Sony has ADDED since the initial firmware?

- video store
- game store
- playstation one classics in game store
- voice chat
- in-game status bar
- blu-ray updates and enhancements
- USB and bluetooth device support

and probably more. Most people would probably value these enhancements over yet another hobbled console onto which to install an old build of Yellow Dog Linux.
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vortex, 6 Apr 2010 @ 12:49pm

So Neeeed!!!!
None of you all would be bitching if the press release from Sony stated that they had uncovered a crippling bug that the new update would remove thus saving your investment from certain irrevocable failure....oh wait, they did that for you already.
Get over it people, do you gamers think you own your avatars???? Or your high scores, or the right to post images from your games...why is it a surprise that these features can be reacquired from the manufacturer/licensor/owner/inventor?
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schlechtj, 7 Apr 2010 @ 5:48am

Re: Unbelievable whining
Ok, I thought I was done but I just cant beleive how ignorant some people are. It makes me angry. Ok lets see that list....
- video store
- game store
- playstation one classics in game store
- voice chat
- in-game status bar
- blu-ray updates and enhancements
- USB and bluetooth device support
Ok, lets say that microsoft in an automatic update gave you those features and took away your ability to run a word processor or anything but games... would you like that...

and a "crippling bug that would mean the eventual demise... yadda yadda yadda..." BULL... what it meant was a very few people would get to use their machine the way they wanted to instead of the way sony wanted them too.

Let me think of that list again and put it in perspective... Those features are tiny in comparison to using your ps3 as a computer. I guess its the mentality of the masses. Lets say you bought a Lamborghini. Then lambo comes to your house, gives you softer shocks a radio cup holders and a cd holder on your visor. Oh yeah and they limited your engine to 90mph. WELL!! look at all those useful features they gave you to make up for some stupid dangerous feature that most people never use anyway. Wow, now its a $200,000 chevy cobalt. For some idiots out there that would be ok. Why did you pay extra money for a ps3 over an xbox???? Just because it was cool or something??? There are a very people who know how to take advantage of the lambos power handling and capabilities. They can take it to their local track etc... Then there are those who bought it to be cool. It sits in their garage and does nothing. I guess if you got the money to blow.

Just because your ignorant of your devices capabilities really makes you look silly (just being nice) to those of us who are not. Like I said, if you bought your ps3 to be able to buy ps1 games from sony when you could buy them much cheaper off ebay then thats your hang up. Some of us bought it to harness the power of the cell processor --- the most powerful processor at the time of its release in certain applications. And that's how Sony sold it. Now they are crippling it. Did you know that you can program for a 200 or so gigaflop multi processor on your ps3? (or that you could). Did you even care. No you just wanted a big expensive game boy. Thats what most people want unfortunatly. It let you learn how to program for the cell so that if you wanted to get into game development later it would be easier to program for the ps3. You may be getting crappier games in the future because of this move... care now???
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Apr 2010 @ 10:43am

Re: So Neeeed?????
In the old days, if there were bugs that caused your device to certainly crash, there would either be a recall or a class action law suit. You have bought into the shovelware lies. Those "added" features should have been in there in the first place. If you read the reviews when the ps3 came out, they said don't buy it. Sony (and a lot of software developers today) release products before they are ready just figuring they can fix it in an update later in order to get a jump on sales. Those enhancements were put in to get more sales to help their bottom line not because of the goodness of their heart. So sony came out with a product that was not developed completely, over priced, and uncompetitive with the competition. Because of on line updates instead of fixing everything all at once, they can take their sweet time about it. Years. And in the end they have tricked you into believing that's a good thing. Sheep.
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Dxs, 14 Apr 2010 @ 2:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
STFU. Ur point is moot
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Fride, 24 Apr 2010 @ 10:39am

I AM SURE IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SECURITY OR ANYTHING ELSE, SONY WILL COME UP WITH ANOTHER UPDATE AT A COST, THAT INCLUDES THE OPTION TO USE NOT LINUX BUT BUT THEIR ON VERSION OF LINUX. THE RESON BEHIND ALL THESE IS PLAIN AND SIMPLE, MONEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY. SO WHEN THE LAW SUIT COMES MAKE SURE YOU GET A REFUND THAT AT LEAST WILL PAY HALF OF WHAT THE COST OF THEIR VERSION OF LINUX WILL COST. AND YES, A LAW SUIT IS ON IT'S WAY .............
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Brad Kelley, 5 May 2010 @ 6:04pm

Security or MPAA, Why Did Sony Update?
Sony says that the reason for removing the feature is “security reasons”. This is not the real reason that they are dropping the feature.Sony and the Motion Picture Association of America (MPAA) have a very close and integrated relationship.
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Bnesaladur (profile), 15 Jul 2010 @ 8:38pm

ImaFish, Im late but your wrong
Ima Fish, I see your point of view but your continually stating that SONY doesnt have to add functionality but they do. Then you seem to be stating this gives them the right to remove functionality. Have you actually thought about this?

Consider this, a company makes a product, say SONY with their PS3 or Toyota with their cars. Now consider its broken, bad programming or brakes that fail, it is the responsibility of said company to fix the problems. Failure to do so results in severely damaged credibility and potential lawsuits.

Now lets consider a company that makes a product, say a PS3 or an XBOX. Perhaps one company keeps it up with new features and the other fails to do so. Any guesses which will die and which will thrive? The one which adapts and expands will thrive, the one which ignores its users will die.

Finally let us consider a product which is marketed as one thing and then the buyer discovers it is another. We call this false advertising. Removing the feature against the will of the buyer would be considered vandalism. Forcing the buyer to remove the feature, by whatever means, including the one used in 3.21, is blackmail.

Do not think your schooling makes you right, and do not consider your apparent weak middle of the road approach makes you right either. What has been done is wrong. It is wrong not because I want this feature. It is wrong simply because it is wrong. Because this isn't fixing a problem, it is false advertising, vandalism and blackmail.

If SONY doesn't want to support this feature, fine. If SONY doesn't want to continue this feature, changes its advertising and removes it, fine. Systems with it already, however, should not have it removed.
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Richard Pecker, 23 Jul 2010 @ 3:59pm

OK
So yeah, I bought an old "FAT" PS3 from eBay (at $150 OVER the retail price at the time) because I wanted the ability to play my PS2 games on it (my 3rd PS2 had broken and I had a very large library of games for it) AND for the ability to play..well ONE game for PS3-Modern Warfare 2, which sure, was available for the Xbox, but for one, I have enough MS products as it is, and PSN was free. Then I get it in the mail, it DOESN'T play PS2 games, hell, if I want to play a PS1 game I ALREADY OWNED I had to buy it from the PS Store, and to run Linux on it, not so much for any other reason than browsing the web from my TV, and maybe tinkering about with it a bit. (PS3 web browser sucks, it's been established.) So yeah, after this whole debacle, I traded my PS3 for a quarter pound of weed. I will not be buying any more Sony products. Ever. The rootkits on their CD's was bad enough, this is just outrageous.My advice to anybody who still has a PS3 that runs Linux: Use their own Cell processor to DDOS/hack every server/bank account/whatever that Sony owns and cause them a REAL problem. I don't know how to do these things, but hopefully, some people do, and will. And I really hope more than a class action lawsuit comes of this. What ever happened to the good old days of REAL game console makers. We need a SEGA/Nintendo merger to develop a REAL console that will rip the assholes out of these pseudo-games-consoles and take back the gaming industry. Sega, people know how to program for multiple CPU's now, get the old SEGA and NINTENDO engineers together and flush this scum out of the gaming market. Go back to Japan SONY, you are no longer welcome in the good ole U.S. of A.
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bobbyhill85, 2 Sep 2010 @ 6:27am

Re: Re: Re:
4.21 will be sony pulling its ability to play games, blue ray, surf the internet, (linnux) install os, and video games it will solve all sony's security concerns
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Anonymous Coward, 18 Sep 2010 @ 5:53pm

I know that this is old and no one will read this but I have not bought a new ps3 game since 03/2010. I will not update the os of my ps3 or buy any new games or movies. I bought the system based on the features that it was advertised as having. I had a choice between a xbox360 or a playstation3, I chose the playstation3 because the features advertised were of more value to me than what the xbox360 offered. Two years after I purchased my system one of the features that it was advertised as having was removed with an "optional" update. If I perform the update the system will not work the way it did when I paid for it, if I don't do the update the system will not work the way it did when I purchased it. Either way this is not the system that I purchased 2 years ago. Most people will see this as a stupid issue and I understand that it is not the end of the world. I am not going on a hunger strike or picketing Sony to change their decision. All I am saying is that it is wrong for Sony to sell me something and then take away some of what they sold 2 years later without a partial refund.
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really?, 30 May 2011 @ 8:14am

Re:
I know you were trying to be funny, but if you really believe that the brakes on Toyota's cars did not work, you definitely drank from the media kool-aid. The recall and fines from NHTSA were nothing more than Toyota being punished for doing better than GM and Ford. As NHTSA reported, there was actually no such thing as unintended acceleration nor were there sticking gas pedals. Just people who made a mistake but didn't want to take responsibility for it.
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psyboogie, 2 Sep 2011 @ 7:45am

if i dont own my system i want every cent ive spent with sony
ive had 4 since i bought my chechc02 so much money and time playing somthing i dont even own what can we do i get cronic anxiety ps3 was my saviour to start with but having no control over what i can do is a bad feeling (youd know what i mean if you suffer from it ) ps3 it can only do everything biggest lie ever why cant we sue just for that let alone stealing options we all paid for i bet if i steal anything whatsoever from sony id be locked up can anyone tell me why its different when they do it or can someone help me create a world wide pertision we must stand 4 what we pay 4 or whats stopping everyone doing the same geo h com bak to cause
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Sal, 8 Apr 2012 @ 1:13am

Crysis for our games
If SONY does not stop deleting game to avoid homebrew on vita ....then they would end up deleting all the games....cuz those who r doing this r not going 2 stop....

And i think if the partial hack of VITA the had not been shown then SONY wouldn't have been so scared...The hack had 2 be a surprise attack...!!!!
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ASa, 8 Nov 2013 @ 3:00am

Re:
Yes it is too much to ask. It would be amusing if someone at the US army hit the update button on their supercomputer.

That being said, a lot of companies give you a written summary of the updates before you choose to install them (some do not).
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Ryan, 8 Mar 2017 @ 8:29pm

Trolls
Did you buy a PS3 to use Linux? NO so shut the fuck up. Stop creating waves. People like you are the problem with society. Always gotta find something wrong with EVERYTHING. It's a fucking game console. Sold as and will always be that. Again shut the fuck up and get off the internet.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2020 @ 6:49pm

Funny how all the Sony shills here were nowhere to be seen after Sony fucked up the security of their user data for the online store...
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Daniel, 25 Jan 2020 @ 6:12am

Re: Re: lawsuit
This actually did come to fruition. I was sent a $10 check.
[ link to this | view in thread ]

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