Sony Deletes Feature On PS3's; You Don't Own What You Thought You Bought
from the the-digital-age dept
It used to be when you bought a product, you owned it. Simple, right? And once you owned it, you could do what you want with it? But, lately, thanks to digital products and an always connected world, many companies have changed things around -- so the products you thought you owned, you actually rent. But, it can go even further than that, where a product you thought you owned can be irrevocably changed without your permission, long after you bought it. Take, for example, the recent story of Sony deleting a feature on the PS3 that let users (not owners, apparently) install other operating systems, such as Linux. It's going away. Sony announced that when the next PS3 firmware upgrade comes along, it'll wipe out this feature, whether you used it or not. The only way to avoid that is not to upgrade, but that will also greatly limit what you can do with your PS3.So why is Sony retroactively taking away a feature that it sold to people? Apparently because some people might possibly use it in a way that Sony didn't intend. The EFF has the whole backstory:
The backstory is that Sony provided the Other OS feature in order to support IBM's Cell Project, which produced the PS3's CPU and made it practical to use PS3 consoles as compute nodes for a scientific supercomputer. The U.S. Army did just that, buying more than 2,000 PS3s to build a supercomputer. Lots of hobbyists also made use of the Other OS feature, using it to write their own games and creatively repurpose their PS3s.This is, frankly, obnoxious -- and I half wonder if there will be a lawsuit over this. People were sold one thing and then Sony retroactively decided to take away a feature that some found quite useful However, I imagine that in a world of interconnected devices, stories like this are going to become more common. Isn't it time that someone created a movement to highlight what products you actually own once you've bought them?
Recently, however, a hobbyist named Geohot announced that he was able to use the Other OS feature along with a bit of soldering in a manner that gave him more control over the PS3 hardware than Sony had intended. Sony responded with the "upgrade" that removes the Other OS feature.
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Where's the FTC?
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lawsuit
HALF wonder? I guarantee there will be a class action suit. It'll cost Sony over a hundred million dollars. They'll admit no wrongdoing and still get to remove the feature. The firm handling the suit will collect tens of millions in legal fees. And consumers might get a coupon for $5.00 off their next purchase of $50.00 or more on the Playstation Network.
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Re: lawsuit
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This actually did come to fruition. I was sent a $10 check.
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SONY ROOTKIT on the PS3?
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It will not limit what you can presently do with the PS3. It can limit what you can do in the future.
In the old days, when you bought electronics, you'd get exactly what you paid for now and forever. Now electronics can be updated to do new things, offer new services, and play new and different content.
To me the mistake Sony made was allowing the installation of Linux in the first place. It made no business sense, i.e., it doesn't earn them any money and they actually lose money because they're selling consoles that will not play any games. I knew it was only a matter of time before someone figured out how to use this to bypass DRM. Why didn't Sony figure that out?
I guess my point is that if you want new features to be added to your electronics completely for free, is it too much to ask that sometimes unprofitable features can be removed?
I haven't completely thought this out yet. I'm not saying either side is right, I'm just putting the question out there.
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You can't play online without the latest firmware buddy. I can currently play online. If I don't upgrade, I am limited on what I can do presently, not in the future.
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Thanks for correcting me. From what I've read (incorrectly obviously) is that you'd no longer be able to update certain DRM related features, including the ability to play the latest blu-ray discs.
Still, my question remains. In the old days I'd buy a static product. When some new feature would come out, I'd have to buy an entirely new piece of electronics to get it. Now we're getting updates for free. Is it worth getting those updates for free if occasionally we have to give up other features?
And we're not talking about a huge feature that nearly everyone uses such as the ability to play blu-ray discs. The vast majority of PS3 users never installed Linux.
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Sony doesn't have to update to add new features either. But you enjoy the fact that it does.
And all those people, corporations, and government entities which bought PS3s to use as cheap computer nodes can continue to use them as such.
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Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?
If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?
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a) If you would need to buy a different piece of hardware in order to get what is essentially just a software upgrade, very few people would be upgrading because of the costs involved. Even if a considerable proportion of people would buy the new version, having multiple versions out in the wild would fragment the user base because you can bet that there would be software incompatibilities between versions.
b) If people would want a new feature which could be added just using software and Sony wouldn't implement it, the users would migrate to a different console which offered that feature.
So, free software updates are absolutely essential to maintaining an uniform (meaning non-fragmented) large user base. It's not a matter of them doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a matter of survival on the market.
When they come in and start removing features, then they are actively defrauding the people that bought the hardware in order to use those features. There is no excuse for that.
Saying that "If you don't let us remove features you already have then we won't be adding new ones either" is similar to putting a gun to your own head and saying that if you're not allowed to cripple someone else then you'll blow your own brains out. Most sane people would react to that by saying "Go ahead! Entertain me! I haven't seen anybody commit suicide in a while."
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An update does not provide new functionality. It provides a fix on the existing software. Removing a feature is not a fix, and it is not a new feature.
It would be like if you paid someone to do some landscaping on your property. They do the work and you like it. But a few months later they came to do some maintenance, and they remove some of the trees they planted for you....b/c they didn't like them any more. It doesn't matter that you paid for them and that you like them, they just took them and called it maintenance.
Perhaps not the best analogy...but I hope you get my point.
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God, there is an upside. Free new features and updates. When I bought my PS3 it could not simultaneously run audio out of the optical and the HDMI output at the same time. Sony gave me a free update and now it can. In the old days I would have had to have bought an entirely new PS3. But I got the feature I wanted for free.
So, once again, is this great upside worth the occasional downside of losing a feature not many people used?
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And I would argue, that no, you didn't get it for free. You paid a very large sum of money to Sony for their hardware and incomplete software. And you paid it with the expectation that there would be updates.
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No there isn't - I'l quote from Geohot's comment on Sony's own blogpost:
"Your blog post doesn't list positive reasons for upgrading like I think most users expect. Instead it lists things you will lose if you don't upgrade. Seriously?"
You can check this on the Sony blog here
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/03/28/ps3-firmware-v3-21-update/
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If one of your selling points, is the ability to run Linux, and you remove that ability, because you don't think it provides values,then you should be obligated to provide a refund for to unsatisfied customers.
Any future update provides value for current and future customers. So that portion is irrelevant to removing linux support.
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Sony isn't adding any new features of value. There is no such "enjoyment". From what I saw the main (if not only) purpose of this "upgrade" is to disable the the other OS feature. Plus you can't play new Blu-ray discs - and if you try it trashes your drive even for old ones.
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When I bought my PS3 it could not simultaneously run audio out of the optical and the HDMI output at the same time. Sony gave me a free update and now it can. In the old days I would have had to have bought an entirely new PS3. But I got the feature I wanted for free.
Do you want to live in a world where you have to buy new hardware every year to get the latest features? Or is it worth getting those features for free even if you occasionally lose unpopular features?
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It always could - Sony just disabled that feature in the initial release so they could give the illusion of a freeby.
These software upgrades are not adding scarce value - if only Sony had provided an open platform you would have been able to add that "feature" yourself.
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Are free upgrades worth the cost? I don't know; I don't think anyone had it explained to them that any functionality Sony decided was no longer "profitable" could be removed without notice or recourse, so no one was able the figure in that "cost" before they bought.
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I'm not saying I agree with it. But for right now it sort of makes sense to me. I just put the question out there to get contrary opinions on it. Thanks for your input.
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ImaFish, Im late but your wrong
Consider this, a company makes a product, say SONY with their PS3 or Toyota with their cars. Now consider its broken, bad programming or brakes that fail, it is the responsibility of said company to fix the problems. Failure to do so results in severely damaged credibility and potential lawsuits.
Now lets consider a company that makes a product, say a PS3 or an XBOX. Perhaps one company keeps it up with new features and the other fails to do so. Any guesses which will die and which will thrive? The one which adapts and expands will thrive, the one which ignores its users will die.
Finally let us consider a product which is marketed as one thing and then the buyer discovers it is another. We call this false advertising. Removing the feature against the will of the buyer would be considered vandalism. Forcing the buyer to remove the feature, by whatever means, including the one used in 3.21, is blackmail.
Do not think your schooling makes you right, and do not consider your apparent weak middle of the road approach makes you right either. What has been done is wrong. It is wrong not because I want this feature. It is wrong simply because it is wrong. Because this isn't fixing a problem, it is false advertising, vandalism and blackmail.
If SONY doesn't want to support this feature, fine. If SONY doesn't want to continue this feature, changes its advertising and removes it, fine. Systems with it already, however, should not have it removed.
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Being able to use Linux on the PS3 was a feature that was sold with the unit, it doesn't matter who used it or if a vast majority would never install it, it was a feature.
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Except that companies didn't perform upgrades that would alienate a portion of the market. It is only now that there is the ability to digitally upgrade without repercussion that this is happening.
For instance VCR's, we had them for years and years and people were able to play their tapes on old and new options. Because people couldn't upgrade for free they didn't try and upgrade the VCR's with minimal features that would essentially bar old VCR's from working with newer tapes.
Also when people bought their PS3's sony said that this was a game system that you could watch Blu-ray's on & install other OS's like Linux on. In addition they touted that it's the best Blu-ray player because you could upgrade it easily so that you're not left in the dust come a new drm upgrade. Never did they say that they would hold such upgrades ransom.
This all kind of reminds me of the reverse of Apple's issues with the iPod touch. They were forced to charge for upgrades due to Accounting practices of giving away new features for free. Shouldn't Sony have to send some cash back if they are removing a feature that they advertised?
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We bought a whole labful to teach game programming - guess they'll go in the skip now. Sony games houses keep complaining about the lack of competent programmers. Enabling education was the purpose of allowing the Linux installation and it benefits Sony in lots of indirect ways - to say it made no business sense is nonsense.
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Actually these machines have been a white elephant anyway precisely because of the DRM which inhibits graphics card access. Without that they are no better for teaching than the old PS2's we had before.
My question remains. Do Sony want folks to be able to learn how to use their kit or not?
If not where do they think the people that write the games that make them money are going to come from?
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Who says Sony has a duty to continuing building and selling stuff you want to buy? There are plenty of things in my life I can no longer replace. That's a fact of life.
"Do Sony want folks to be able to learn how to use their kit or not?"
I cannot answer for Sony nor do I care about your question as it does not affect my life at all.
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Then, maybe, don't bother responding to it? Just a thought...
I for one am rather annoyed that a feature on my PS3, which was (as I recall) advertised, will now be removed. And for those saying I can choose not to update to keep OtherOS, I would then lose MULTIPLE advertised features, so your point is moot.
I suspect, though, that this will only affect the casual Linux users. Something tells me the hardcore followers will find a workaround before half the user base even gets an update notification. At the very least, I would think you could still use an old firmware download, or just backup your hard drive pre- and post-update, and go back and forth between the two as needed. Not the most convenient of setups, but doable if you absolutely MUST be able to use new and old features. I had thought their competition with Microsoft would keep their Linux support going, but oh well...
I've been hesitant to buy anything Sony-related since the rootkit fiasco, and the PS3 will likely be the last piece of hardware I buy from them.
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It does actually - because all those games that the people who would have learnt to code for the PS3 would have written won't exist!
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One, if you're using them for programing in a classroom setting, I doubt you need any firmware updates unless you're wasting your institutions cash for some free between class gaming.
Secondly, I'm pretty sure if you were legit you could have gotten DEV kits from Sony for that purpose that didn't need to be hacked to be used as teaching tools.
But sure make outrageous statements on the internet how taking away a feature because a prominent hacker announced he used this feature to circumvent security measures in the system.
If anything there'd be a class action lawsuit if Sony did nothing while the hacker community started modding systems and hacking games to grief paying consumers with wall hacks and the like.
Had the hacker not practically made a press release about cracking the PS3 this wouldn't be happening. Sony knows how much money they lost on PSP because of the hacking/homebrew community.
Games companies don't profit on hardware, so you can't use that strawman. The gaming community knows this, and they also know hacking a system to play "backup" games is really playing pirated games.
I considered installing Linux at one point, but then remembered I'd rather play games on it... If this cuts down on cheaters and griefers on PSN, all the better.
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other than that you left a giant steaming pile of crap on the carpet.
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The Linux installation isn't a "hack".
The Dev kits from Sony are targeted at game studios and cost way more than an academic institution can afford. In fact you have to be a development studio to buy them (ie have a contract with Sony, sign all the NDA's etc etc etc) - they won't sell to anyone else.
Next time you weigh in check your facts first.
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Heck looking at the price of the DEV kit for Sony only costs between 2,000 to 10,000 USD. You must work for a pretty crappy school, because how can a school not afford that? A four year university should be way more than able to afford 30-40 seats of that software.
http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/24/sony-introduces-a-new-ps3-dev-kit-for-bargain-shoppi n-developers/
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2009/03/sony-announces-lower-cost-ps3-dev-tools.ar s
You have serveral news sources saying the same thing. SO your information is completely off bucko.
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Plus you don't (at present) get the devkit if you aren't a developer who is in a position to sign all the requisite agreements. Sony did reveal a planned "academic devkit" last summer - but it was in "closed beta" and so far it hasn't emerged. At the time the Sony spokesman said "Of course universities can use Linux to program on the PS3" Now that is going but the replacement hasn't arrived.
"You just happen to be a pissed off consumer who feels they have been butt hurt by the corporate machine. "
No I'm a disinterested observer - someone else does our console courses and the result of Sony's lack of support was a switch to Xbox.
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Huh? When has a console maker been sued over this? Because modders/hackers have been messing with online console games since consoles went online.
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But, as I said before, my question still stands.
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I think the point is that you can no longer do both at once.
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Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?
If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?
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Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?
If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?
Why does it have to be a question of one or the other? There is no valid reason that the Other OS feature has to be removed, other than that Sony doesn't want it on the machines anymore. They're not getting rid of it because it conflicts with some great feature, or to free up needed space in the firmware, they're getting rid of it because they want to limit what users can do with the systems. Just like how Sony keeps updating the firmware and in some cases, the hardware, of the PSP to lock out homebrew games and programs, such as emulators.
The new firmware isn't going to provide any new features for users. Nor will new games require some feature that only the new firmware will provide. New games won't work on un-updated machines because they will be specifically programmed to check the firmware version and fail if they don't find the latest version. They will do this as a way of blackmailing people into accepting the "update".
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btw this update is bull-shit....It didn't even warn me about it it's just like update to new update so I hit yes and then it said update 3.21 downloaded...so I went online to find out what it was about and now I see this whole forum...thanks for fucking me over sony without legitimately warning me...
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Now I am going to have to go out and buy a new computer for the kids to do their homework on because NOT playing games or watching a movie is not acceptable to them and buying a new computer is not acceptable to me. Otherwise I would have bought an xbox 360 and a computer in the first place. I would have saved money and the hassle of having to back up all their homework files, pictures etc etc.... before putting on this new stupid update so we can rent movies again. Now I am out the extra money I paid over an xbox. Well now that I think about it, perhaps I'll just go to the video store from now on instead of giving Sony my money. And maybe from now on I'm just going to buy games for the new computer I'm going to have to get the kids. For me, taking the ability of the ps3 to be a computer is like taking my cars ability to drive away. (you didn't need that feature did you??? ya but you can still listen to the radio and honk at people who get too close to you.).
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Is it possible to downgrade firmware back to the release that enabled users to put linux on their console? If so, does Sony still offer these downgrades on their website, or must you find them separately?
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Is it worth it to get those free updated features if sometimes unpopular features are removed?
If your argument is that Sony should never change the PS3, then Sony would never update it. If a new feature came out, you'd have to buy an entirely different PS3. Is that what you want?"
I will go ahead and answer this question you seem to think will change everything. Yes, I would rather Sony put out some sort of Sony 3.X revision every time there is an update. It seems like that would be more fair, and they already have in some ways. Think of this, in 5 years, they have removed 4 features. Two from hardware, two from software. (PS2 Enabling Hardware, Memory Card Readers, PS2 Software Emulation, and now Other OS.)
Of course, if Sony had done that, physically released consoles every year, with features removed each time, and saying they will cease supporting the previous one, people would be up in arms, AS THEY SHOULD BE. However, it would at least be more honest.
This said, I would rather go back to buying a console every 3-5 years then have to worry about the requirements of always connected. Lets not forget that for a day you couldn't play the PS3 at all due to a connectivity problem, even offline games.
What is to keep Sony from releasing an 'Update' that kills the system at End of Life, to force people to the PS4? Or shutdown the server and just break any game that has these 'free and kind updates' that prevented them from playing earlier this year?
Public backlash? That did not stop them from removing PlayStation 2 Functionality, or the Other OS function. So once again, yes, I would rather go back to the days I purchased a NES or Genesis, and could play any game out of the box for the next 4+ years without fear of the company suddenly giving the middle finger to me.
Then again, I am not properly filled with awe in our corporate overloads giving updates for free.
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It will not limit what you can presently do with the PS3. It can limit what you can do in the future.
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Wrong. Without getting the firmware update, you'll no longer be able to play online. Something which you can already do with the PS3 before the update.
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It -WILL- limit what you do with your ps3 currently because you will no longer be able to get online to play multiplayer, purchase games or get new BluRay encyprtion.
Some games that require online checking of your user account will no longer be functional.
It is an immediate loss.
The purpose of the otherOS was several fold. One, to advertise the cell processors, to appeal more strongly to the geek class of gamer, and frankly it initially was probably thought of as a good way to find new uses for the playstation.
And yes it is too much to ask for it to not be removed. I purchased it with an understanding that I could install Linux. And I have.
The exploit is extremely difficult and only a handful of people will even attempt much less do something fruitful with it. It is over reaction, disregard for customer satisfaction and showing off an old crustiness in management that still hasn't comprehended the digital age.
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Actually it did make business sense for Sony to originally sell the PS3 with this feature. Consoles and "PC's" are taxed differently in many parts of the world, and since you "could" install an operating system, the PS3 because a "PC" instead of a console and was taxed less. So, yes, it did allow Sony to make more money.
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That being said, a lot of companies give you a written summary of the updates before you choose to install them (some do not).
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I think this is a key point. The primary value and the intent of the PS3 is as a game platform. Not properly preventing cheating would be considered negligent on Sony's part because it would seriously diminish the value of the product. In my mind, this outweighs any concerns about secondary uses of the PS3. If you bought a PS3 with the purpose of using it to run Linux, then fine; that's what you can do with it. But the tradeoff is that you won't be able to use it to play games. That seeems quite fair to me.
neckbeards who want to install Linux on their washing machines
I LOLed.
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Sony can't have their cake and eat it too.
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I think my argument is still valid; it's just that Sony would have to choose which one was more important, some tax benefit or the potential for a class action lawsuit.
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2) This update won't stop hackers. They'll see it as a bigger challenge. Guess what? That's why hackers do what they do because they love a challenge.
I'm a software developer and I use Linux on my PS3 at home for writing apps. It's not my primary machine, but being able to put Linux on the machine was the reason I was one of the first people in line to get one.
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Re: Re: Re:
I think that as long as there is a non-zero chance that something could possibly be used to cheat, it's Sony's responsibility to address it. In this case, I think it's just as much about the perception of the ability to cheat than the actual likelihood.
I'm a software developer and I use Linux on my PS3 at home for writing apps. It's not my primary machine, but being able to put Linux on the machine was the reason I was one of the first people in line to get one.
OK, but when you decided to put Linux on it, didn't you do so with the understanding that you might not be able to use it for its primary purpose i.e. playing games? I don't own a PS3, so I'll admit I don't know all of the details, but as an outside observer, it seems that this is a fair tradeoff.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
I can see this answer as no. I would answer as no, the Other OS was shown to coexist with the game playing. The only restriction, is you lose some HD space, however, since you can manually upgrade the Hard Drive, that removes the only issue as far as I am aware of. After all, up to now updates have been flowing, and Games and Other OS lived together in harmony. The only time I ever seen something where the two would have to be separate, was yesterday when I saw the post that said "If Linux is important to you, don't update your system and buy a new one for gameplay."
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
There's a non-zero chance that Anything and Everything can be used to cheat. So they should remove controllers, memory cards... oh yeah, let's remove the discs too, they could be used to cheat. Somehow. There's always a chance.
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Not at all. He's quite correct, and I think you just don't like how literally he's taking it. "Non-Zero" is such an infinitely wide space that's it's useless for generalizing. You really mean a "reasonable" chance, and of course what a person finds reasonable is a matter of opinion.
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This is the same logic that fuels absurd "zero tolerance" situations in schools. "Well, he COULD have used that potato peeler to murder another student by jamming it into his carotid artery, therefore we had to call the police and suspend him and close all schools in the district for the day."
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And to be totally honest, that would be a bunch easier and less risky that opening your PS3, shocking a chip during power on to confuse it, then boot to another OS and run hacks to allow you to do something that probably doesn't even allow you to play any games anyway.
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As for "remove the engines", the more appropriate comparison would be to add a device to prevent the car from going over the speed limit. Sure, it seems crazy, but if cars were just being invented today, it would take just hours for someone to seriously suggest that this made sense.
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Re:
No, it's not. Games can be patched to remove exploits. The OS/firmware can be patched to disable security holes. A feature need not be removed to retain the integrity of multiplayer games.
Particularly a feature that enabled the machine to run a different OS, in a highly crippled state (only certain operations available, no direct access to the video hardware, etc...). The "Other OS" feature was sandboxed against doing anything remotely connected with gaming on the device. It was interesting in that it allowed you to play around a bit with programming for the Cell, but the video hardware restrictions meant its use as a development platform was incredibly limited. It made an excellent compute node for performance clustering though.
"An incredible small amount of people ever bothered to install Linux on their systems, and if you ask the community of *gamers* who own a PS3, rather than the usual neckbeards who want to install Linux on their washing machines, you will see most people agree it is for the best."
First of all, this is incredibly rude. You could make your point without resorting to namecalling. But you chose not to.
Second, while I'll agree that a minority of PS3 owners used the feature, that's not the point. The point is that Sony sold a product with a given featureset. Folks bought the product based on that featureset. To some of these folks, the ability to run linux on it was a major selling point. They bought the machine not only to run linux, but to play games and movies as well. As was used in Sony's own marketing literature: "It only does everything".
Sony is now taking one of these features away - removing a feature that was advertised. It makes no difference if the current hardware revision supports the feature or not - the past ones did.
As another analogy - what if Maytag suddenly decided that you no longer needed the ability to wash things with hot water, and decided to remotely update all Maytag washing machines to only wash with cold water? Or if your radio manufacturer decided that you may only listen to FM radio, and remotely disabled your ability to listen to AM?
That's what this is about. It's not about "cheating", it's about who owns the devices you purchased with your hard earned money.
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Re:
To a casual observer it might seem that you are using the excuse of humour to sling insults instead of arguments. This is fortunate, as it highlights the lack of argument. Keep it up!
Here's some suggestions: geeks have small penises; nerds are weak except in nerd rage; glasses are for those who haven't heard of contact lenses. And those are just the ones that are as funny as the jibes so far, try hard enough and people might not even cringe.
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Re: Re:
I am not saying I am happy with this or that it won't be bad for Sony to do it. But leave the Linux penguins on Antarctica for a while and understand that what gamers care about is a fair gaming environment above the possibility of compiling kernels, choosing between GRUB or LILO or doing whatever it is that Linux zealots do.
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Re: Re: Re:
Linux 'zealots' who made use of the fact that Sony had advertised their consoles as also being personal computers; not only advertised but in the case of the PS2 released a 'Linux kit' which included keyboard/mouse/vga adapter. A quote from playstation.com: "There is more to the PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) computer entertainment system than you may have assumed. In addition to playing games, watching movies, listening to music, and viewing photos, you can use the PS3™ system to run the Linux operating system. "
In contrast we have you suggesting that only games matter because that's the only feature you use. I presume if they took away the ability to play video, play music, display photos and browse the internet you would be equally vitriolic to those complaining.
I think I'll forgo the jokes and just call you a selfish git.
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Re:
Client side security is useless for this. If people want to hack the system they will. The security should be server side where the hackers have no physical access.
Security -wise it would be better if the client platform was completely open - Google Kirchoff's principle if you don't believe me.
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Re: Re:Kerckhoff
"Any security system depends crucially on keeping some things secret. However, Kerckhoffs' principle points out that the things which are kept secret ought to be those which are least costly to change if inadvertently disclosed."
Keeping the secret things on the client side is stupid because
1) The "enemy" has physical access
2) If the system fails all the users have to have their equipment modified. If you are unlucky this may not be possible via a download.
If you keep all the secret stuff in the server then security failure is less likely and cheaper if it occurs.
Sony got themselves into a hole and now they keep digging.
There are after all plenty of PC based online games - running on (relatively) open hardware.
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I am so glad we got that cleared up. it is refreshing to know my rights aren't worth shit to either a large multinational company or to other people who are getting ass fucked as well.
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Silly "User" !
- You do NOT own products.
- You may NOT technically examine or modify products. And..
You may NOT become technically proficient to examine products.
- You owe CoMerica at least a nickel when you access a product.
- You owe a CoMerica "Provider" at least a buck when you use a product.
- Non-compliance is criminal and disclosure is liable.
The law will enforce compliance... so,
OBEY all "Users" !
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Re: Silly "User" !
Would you mean corporate Japan?
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I don't see why Sony didn't just make the official position of something like refusing to service PS3 units that have had Linux installed on them or something?
But lawsuit? I don't even own a PS3 but I'll bet you money they Sony already has some EULA-like documentation in place that pretty much says, "It's our system and we can do what we want with it without telling you about it."
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Yeah, it's funny to think of people labeling Linux as the choice for poseurs. One of my first projects with Linux was building a Linux From Scratch system, I'd worry for the sanity of anyone who thinks that is 'hip'. My desire to write 'poseur' on the lid of my netbook is increasing with every other post here though.
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Re:
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Point being do you think Sony is going to let something like not being able to read and agree to the EULA until AFTER purchase stop them from trying to smack any lawsuits down with it?
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Stop them from trying? NO it won't. But succeeding maybe, the good news is there is a lot of debate as to whether an EULA/ToS type agreement is even enforceable, especially if it could not be read before purchase I for one have been looking to purchase an older (and I am sure it would be used -- OH NoES!) PS3, because of this functionality. I am a PC Gamer. I was looking into getting some console titles but wanted some real utility from the console. Thank you Sony, for reinforcing my feeling that console gaming is a worthless bag of Sh!t, you will not be getting any of my gaming budget now or in the future.
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DUM FISHY
it had lil hackers go, hey cool i want this rather then a XBOX thats all locke dup and i cant do nothing with.
SO here we have imafishnut saying hes a pro sony fucktard.
Seriously look at what you can do as value rather then it not giving the company direct value it gave them increased sales
if i have to buy more then one to make a super computer HRM thats not value is it
STUPID DUMB
wake up and look around at what you type sir
really you look foolish
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Re: DUM FISHY
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remember the rootkit
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Lawsuit...
Sony only ever allowed this as a way to get some early publicity. Now that they don't need that, the feature goes away because it's more of a liability than a help.
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Re: Lawsuit...
Seems fairly simple.
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Re: Re: Lawsuit...
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Microsoft have been doing this for years
I expect we can't complain because we probably ticked the "I agree to all your terms and conditions" box.
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Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
Fixed that for you. Last time I checked, Microsoft doesn't update your firmware making it impossible to install pirated software.
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Re: Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
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Re: Microsoft have been doing this for years
Here bud, I will sell you a gun. I will provide updates and services for the gun, sometimes giving you new features like a laser scope for free. Of course, I will probably remove the hammer down the road, since you might shoot someone with it. Don't worry though! You can still put bullets inside and even press the trigger! I will even give you a tiny speaker so it makes a bang noise, you won't miss a thing.
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This is one case where I actually hope Sony wins if there is a lawsuit.
I can't believe I just said that, but it seems like the unintended consequences would be bad.
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welcome to every mmorpg
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Re: welcome to every mmorpg
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Re: Re: welcome to every mmorpg
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Linux Ps3
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Backwards compatability?
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lawsuits
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Im a little sheep ill do what you say.
Say you bought a 3 GHz Dual quad core MAC and apple decides to "update" it to run at 2.5?
Say you bought an IPhone...he he he. Not a good example.
Although most of you are like so what, only because it does not interest you, you need to realize that if you do not resist this kind of control, together, you may loose a features/functions that you love. Now its Linux; What will it be tomorrow?
Its not about if you are interested or not, but why allow some corporation come in and rape your equipment?
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Re: Im a little sheep ill do what you say.
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in other news ...
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It sucks that I'm gonna have to ditch that feature. Now, instead, I'll have to buy a BD-ROM drive.
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To ImaFish:
What if the next upgrade takes away those very features it just gave you, like the audio through HDMI? Would you care then?
While it's been estimated that less than 2% of users have Linux installed, Sony's ability to take it away without just cause is an idiotic decision.
Personally, I'm glad I held off buying this console. While the updates have provided additional enhancements, it shocks me to think anything giveth by Sony, it can taketh.
Damn, I'm really sick of all this software crap, whether it be on a PC or a game console. I'm about ready to go back to pencil and paper. No one can take those items from me, or dictate what I can do with them.
Screw all these companies anymore. The benefits are now being overshadowed by their inability to relate to consumers with DRM and "other security issues".
Chess, anyone?
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Re: To ImaFish:
Knight to King-bishop-3
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Hmmm...
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THIS EXPLOIT DOESN'T CREATE A HOLE FOR PIRCACY!
sony is doing this purely because they hate their customers.
see:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3hacked-article?page=1
http: //rdist.root.org/2010/01/27/how-the-ps3-hypervisor-was-hacked/
http://geohotps3.blogspot.com/2010/0 1/heres-your-silver-platter.html
sony shills should actually read what the hell has been done instead of just screaming that only a small few will be affected and that sony is in the right. they aren't.
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About Time
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Re:
They are under an obligation to ensure their product works as advertised at the time of sale. Part of the reason for future firmware upgrades is to fix things that do not function properly that prevent their product from working as advertised to begin with. If their product works perfectly as advertised to begin with, with no bugs whatsoever, then I would agree, they are under no obligation to provide future firmware upgrades. Otherwise, they absolutely are, at least to fix their mistakes.
and if those future firmware upgrades are required for existing functionality to work properly then those future firmware upgrades better not intentionally remove functionality.
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Because for those people...the ones who install Linux and can't play Blu-Ray or PS3 Games...then not updating seems to be a non-issue.
Use it for your supercomputing...then buy an unaltered PS3 for playing games/Blu-Ray.
If you can do both at the same time (run Linux, play discs/games) then yeah...that's kinda fucked up.
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Re:
Linux can also be useful in running an alternative browser since the ps3 browser is blocked by many websites, netflix (discs are available I know), hulu, and some various other sites. Linux offered greater flexibility.
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Well...
e.g.
- Allowing them to release to market sooner without having to implement all the features they perhaps want/could as it can always be corrected later
- Bug fixing obviously
- Staying competitive, for example implementing new bluray standards so people still keep buying the ps3 instead of going to a standalone
- Free market research, for example the trophies and in game XMB which could be argued should have been there from the get go (re: Xbox 360) but only implemented after seeing how much the users wanted them.
The list could go on. IMO none of this matters much, when the PS3 was released they didn't market it with "sometime in the future we will add extra features" as you could then get sued over not providing them (re: Vista Ultimate Extras) but they certainly did advertise its Linux capability which they are removing as a pre-emptive measure in case something is actually done with the hack. Tbh from what I know of what can and cannot be done, this is more about people stealing downloaded movie content then piracy of games.
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They came first..
and I didn't speak up because I didn't play PS2 games.
THEN THEY CAME for the SCAD player,
and I didn't speak up because I didn't use the SCAD player.
THEN THEY CAME for the memory card readers,
and I didn't speak up because I didn't use memory cards.
THEN THEY CAME for the other OS feature,
and I didn’t speak up because I didn't use Linux.
THEN THEY CAME for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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Re: They came first..
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Re: They came first..
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Before fools blast rumors
The closest source I have personally seen for this rumor is a post on a Sony sponsored forum.
It's been pointed out that most of the updates for the PS3 have been released early in the week, this one is 4/1 which is a Thursday.
About the closest thing I have seen to lend credibility to this story is that the PS3 Slim does not have the option, but then it also doesn't have the option for PS2 games either, and it's release never touted the ability to install any other operating systems either.
My guess is that the likelyhood is pretty high that this is nothing more than a joke...
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If you "Buy" a Sony product this is what you SHOULD expect.
This is why I NEVER "buy" Sony products. Ever.
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It's not an unprofitable feature b/c it was one of the systems selling points. People paid for the feature with the system. But you know I'm sure there's some loophole in the fine print that let's Sony off the hook.
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Two questions; two sides
I have a thought and a question.
Thought: Perhaps we don't want to say that vendors are not permitted to remove features post-sale because sometimes removing features will make sense to do. Examples:
- if a feature inadvertantly creates a security risk;
- if a feature creates a situation such that technical support of the feature would bankrupt the company (and make any future support for the product disappear).
So before one rushes off to say that companies shouldn't be able to do this, one ought to address how to differentiate from situations where perhaps they should be able to do this.
Question: Even if Sony is legally permitted to remove features post sale, in this case it is completely unclear to me why they would want to.
As best I can tell, they have already sold several thousand extra units because customers have figured out how to repurpose them. If Sony cooperated in promoting how to repurpose PS3s, wouldn't they sell many tens of thousands of additional extra units? If Sony makes $200 wholesale from a unit they reap an extra $1m for every 5,000 more they sell.
Why would they not want to do this?
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Re: Two questions; two sides
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Does the update remove already installed copies of Linux on a PS3
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Re: Does the update remove already installed copies of Linux on a PS3
My understanding is that it would not 'remove' Linux, but it would stop Linux working.
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Yawn.
You are not required to upgrade your PS3, and you can continue playing games (just not online) without upgrading your firmware.
If you actively use the other OS feature (which I doubt you do) and it matters that much to you, I suggest purchasing a small computer that you can run a unix OS on.
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Re: Yawn.
I can hear the lawyers warming up their pens now!
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The Movement Exists
Someone has. It's called the Right to Repair Act, it's centered around motor vehicles and you should let your congress critters know you strongly support it.
http://www.righttorepair.org/
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Jokes
So after they realized that they can't hold up to the idea that they are offering a home entertainment system they start turning the keys to the off position so they don't have to actually do anything anymore and charge the same later.
So the joke was on us...and that's probably why I don't have a ps3..good day.
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Do Demonstrations Opposing Sony
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Re: Do Demonstrations Opposing Sony
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Jeep Recall
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Wah Wah Wah
I agree with Sony, I already got burnt by Microsoft because jackbutts ruined a great thing causing Microsoft to make a sound business decision.
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Servers?
But honestly... so users who decide to run Linux on it benefits from firmware upgrades? It seems if you never play PS3 games from it, you lose nothing even if you don't install any new firmwares...
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Apple with its one-size-fits-all,dictated,chaperone product rental and marketing system is just a tech rental company.Its fans actually think that they own the products that they hold on their hands.So, when questioned Apple simply tells them that they are buying into a life style. Can you imagine the mass confusion if the tether line (iTune, for example) to the mothership Cupertino were to be cut off from under them. On balance, Sony has given us more than it has taken from us. You can not say that about apple.
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BOYCOTT SONY!
I will NEVER buy a blueray player or discs as this will profit SONY
I do not buy any movies produced by SONY
I do not buy music distributed by SONY
If SONY makes 1 cent, I'm not buying.
SONY can DIE IN A FIRE!
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Oh boohoo.
The PS3 has a lot of other features you can enjoy, and besides, if you wanted to use goddamn Linux, then install it on a computer, not your gaming console.
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Re: Oh boohoo.
Complain to Sony for telling people that it is a computer that runs Linux as well as a gaming console. This isn't about people hacking the device to run Linux, it's about Sony telling them that running Linux is part of the parcel.
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Nintendo with the same thing with MP3s in the Wii
They switched it to AAC I believe.
I remember a lot of friends who had Wii's asking me how to convert mp3s to other formats at around that time.
Amazon does the same, Apple's DNA consists of such douchey gestures, I really hope someone takes one of these companies to court.
Gaming platforms court the non-hardcore gamers with secondary features like wathcing bluray and many things which have nothing to do with the main purpose of the machine; to play games.
You can not tell someone 'buy ours because we not only offer games but also A, B and C" and then later on remove option B.
What those options are is wholly irrelevant to the discussion.
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/sigh
In actuality, it makes a lot of sense for Sony to keep the homebrew side of it. An open development environment encourages people to play. This would inevitably lead to some of those developers working in the game industry, which would lead more games to be created for the PS3. This, of course, would lead to more money in Sony's pocket. It's smart to keep it *somewhat* open (it is/was currently limited in that only the graphics hardware couldn't be accessed, but you could write to the frame buffer and there are more than enough software renderers out there that are free.)
Also, I think many people are missing a crucial fact (I'm sure Sony is...) The PS3 lasted longer than any other game platform in history before it was finally cracked. The iPhone was out, what, a week before it was broken? Maybe rather than hurting those "few" of us (it's actually quite a substantial number...) that use the PS3 for self education, development, or whatever, perhaps they should hire/contract the guy that broke it to improve the product.
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What is Ford did this?
Blatant vandalism.
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Unbelievable whining
Features that Sony has ADDED since the initial firmware?
- video store
- game store
- playstation one classics in game store
- voice chat
- in-game status bar
- blu-ray updates and enhancements
- USB and bluetooth device support
and probably more. Most people would probably value these enhancements over yet another hobbled console onto which to install an old build of Yellow Dog Linux.
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Re: Unbelievable whining
- video store
- game store
- playstation one classics in game store
- voice chat
- in-game status bar
- blu-ray updates and enhancements
- USB and bluetooth device support
Ok, lets say that microsoft in an automatic update gave you those features and took away your ability to run a word processor or anything but games... would you like that...
and a "crippling bug that would mean the eventual demise... yadda yadda yadda..." BULL... what it meant was a very few people would get to use their machine the way they wanted to instead of the way sony wanted them too.
Let me think of that list again and put it in perspective... Those features are tiny in comparison to using your ps3 as a computer. I guess its the mentality of the masses. Lets say you bought a Lamborghini. Then lambo comes to your house, gives you softer shocks a radio cup holders and a cd holder on your visor. Oh yeah and they limited your engine to 90mph. WELL!! look at all those useful features they gave you to make up for some stupid dangerous feature that most people never use anyway. Wow, now its a $200,000 chevy cobalt. For some idiots out there that would be ok. Why did you pay extra money for a ps3 over an xbox???? Just because it was cool or something??? There are a very people who know how to take advantage of the lambos power handling and capabilities. They can take it to their local track etc... Then there are those who bought it to be cool. It sits in their garage and does nothing. I guess if you got the money to blow.
Just because your ignorant of your devices capabilities really makes you look silly (just being nice) to those of us who are not. Like I said, if you bought your ps3 to be able to buy ps1 games from sony when you could buy them much cheaper off ebay then thats your hang up. Some of us bought it to harness the power of the cell processor --- the most powerful processor at the time of its release in certain applications. And that's how Sony sold it. Now they are crippling it. Did you know that you can program for a 200 or so gigaflop multi processor on your ps3? (or that you could). Did you even care. No you just wanted a big expensive game boy. Thats what most people want unfortunatly. It let you learn how to program for the cell so that if you wanted to get into game development later it would be easier to program for the ps3. You may be getting crappier games in the future because of this move... care now???
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So Neeeed!!!!
Get over it people, do you gamers think you own your avatars???? Or your high scores, or the right to post images from your games...why is it a surprise that these features can be reacquired from the manufacturer/licensor/owner/inventor?
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Re: So Neeeed?????
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Security or MPAA, Why Did Sony Update?
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OK
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if i dont own my system i want every cent ive spent with sony
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Crysis for our games
And i think if the partial hack of VITA the had not been shown then SONY wouldn't have been so scared...The hack had 2 be a surprise attack...!!!!
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Trolls
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Funny how all the Sony shills here were nowhere to be seen after Sony fucked up the security of their user data for the online store...
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