UK ISP Says It Will Not Follow Digital Economy Bill Rules
from the civil-isp-disobedience dept
As anger towards the Digital Economy Bill grows, some are fighting back against the bill in a variety of ways. ISP Talk Talk, who had been vocally against the bill ever since it was first proposed, has apparently now announced that it will not follow the more draconian aspects of the law. In an official blog post by the company, it says that it will fight in court any attempt to force it to do things it feels are unwise, and will continue to fight against the law politically:After the election we will resume highlighting the substantial dangers inherent in the proposals and that the hoped for benefits in legitimate sales will not materialise as filesharers will simply switch to other undetectable methods to get content for free.Who knows if it will actually help, but it is nice to see an ISP willing to not just give in at this point.
In the meantime we stand by our pledges to our customers:
- Unless we are served with a court order we will never surrender a customer's details to rightsholders. We are the only major ISP to have taken this stance and we will maintain it.
- If we are instructed to disconnect an account due to alleged copyright infringement we will refuse to do so and tell the rightsholders we'll see them in court.
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Filed Under: digital economy bill, isp, united kingdom
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Competition
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Re: Competition
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"We won't disconnect unless you take us to court"
"We will if you take us to court and get an order"
Cynical ol' me thinking that they're getting kudos for standing up.
The whole thing is a mess, and in the middle of an election?
Someone will inherit the poisoned chalice.
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Re:
Unless you are saying that the ISP should ignore court orders too.
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TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
They are concerned about their own business but not about the businesses of the creative industries who have been ripped off ruthlessly by filesharers who have premium accounts with them!
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Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
If more people start using various encryption techniques then *what* can they do? Cut everyone off?
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Re: Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
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Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
i think you clearly stand on the side of the RIAA et al in as much as you still havent recognised that what you refer to as "the creative industry" is in fact just an archaic sales/distribution industry who claim to be there for artists when in fact (and this IS a fact) they screw their artists out of vast amounts of money.
maybe you should take a good long look at the creative industry and see it for what it is... OUTDATED, DYING and of course CORRUPT.
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Re: Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
If there are that many illegal file sharers why is it that a such a small group of people, the uncreative industry bosses, get so much legislative priority over everyone else to control everyone else. Enough is enough, those 400 million people need to organize stronger groups against corrupt governments that destroy our lives for no good reason.
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Re: Re: Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
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Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
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Re: Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
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Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
Cite this figure, please. That's more than the total number of broadband subscribers in the world according to the latest figures I can find (2007).
Not to say you're lying, but when you consider that much of the filesharing in the world is 100% LEGAL (public domain & CC, WoW patches & other software upgrades, Linux distros, etc.), you'll forgive me for thinking that sounds extremely inflated.
"ripped off ruthlessly by filesharers"
They have yet to prove this. Any "ripping off" would depend on a sale unquestionably having been made if said file sharing wasn't available. This is an assumption that has not yet been proven, and is not the basis for law - especially when many studies show that the biggest file sharers are often also the biggest legal purchasers of content.
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Re: Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
Most of the laws being passed are designed exactly to restrict the legal file sharing of free content just like most of the laws outside the Internet are designed to restrict the legal sharing of free content and have pretty much accomplished this task.
Governments give ISP's an unregulated monopoly making it easier for them to restrict the legal file sharing of free content.
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Re: TalkTalk are all Talk Talk
The "creative industries" is mostly a cover name for a bunch of middle men who have been ruthlessly ripping off actual creative individuals for centuries.
In the meantime creative individuals who have learnt how to work with the new technology are doing just fine.
Those who still want to make a living by taxing a zero cost process had better learn that it doesn't work. It's like a government, addicted to fuel duty revenue, trying to find a way to tax the fuel for solar powered cars.
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Good
Like with search companies. Only one has faced down the US DOJ. And only one has walked away from China, when it became clear their government policy is only becoming worse.
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Re: Good
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Re: Re: Good
But we must protest and organize, the civil rights movement required a lot of organized resistance to succeed.
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pay for your entertainment
if you pay for your media then there is no need for running around using various encryption techniques to HIDE what you are doing to stop being cut off!
People HAVE TO PAY for their gear to play their stolen pirate booty why not pay the artist as well... I just dont understand the mind of a pirate - I guess that they can get it FREE - and dont really care about the provider of their entertainment because it can be gotten free - it sucks!
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Re: pay for your entertainment
If someone is looking for free stuff then they probably weren't going to buy it in the first place, so no lost sales.
If someone file shares, likes what they've downloaded and then buys it, what's wrong with that?
If someone file shares, finds that the content is crap and then decides not to buy, what's wrong with that?
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Re: pay for your entertainment
What about out of print media still covered by copywrong laws?
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Re: pay for your entertainment
You just totally miss the point.
The freedom that the "pirate" wants is not free beer (like you seem to think) it's free speech.
It's the freedom to say to a friend "Hey I really like this band, here have a listen to this mp3 of one of their tracks".
All the evidence (much quoted on this site) is that those who pirate actually spend MORE on "paying the artist" than people who don't.
The problem is that too many people are locked into the model of "paying for a copy" - which is nonsense when the copy has a zero cost.
The reality has actually been different for a long time. For many years people have "bought to support".
For a long time the Album was the purchase mode of choice for actually acquiring the ability to listen to the music - and yet how many fans bought the single too (when they didn't need to - they already had the song on the album) just to see their favourite artist rise up the charts.
Look at the recent Christmas No1 battle between the X factor and Rage against the Machine. How many people downloaded the Rage against the Machine track - and never listened to it? (I was one). How many people spent money for no return voting on the X factor (lots - you can look up the figures).
The fact is people don't want to be hamstrung by copyright when they are spreading the news of their favourite music. Equally they don't mind shelling out money to support the artist - even without a direct payback in the form of a physical CD or digital file.
Bottom line is this. Trust the customer. They are not stupid. They know the music needs financial support and they are quite happy to spend what they can afford. There just isn't any sense these days in linking the money mechanistically to the copying process.
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Re: pay for your entertainment
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Re: pay for your entertainment
The Pirate Party's charter is the future of the entertainment industry, and they have no one to blame but themselves.
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andy
Understand this it is not that the bill goes after pirates it is the way it does it. on mere accuations NO PROOF REQUIRED NO CHECKS AND NO REAL REDRESS.
It is the same as a murder being committed outside your house police then kick in your door arrest you and give you your family even any kids or babys a life sentance NO COURT CASE NEVER MIND YOU WERE NOT IN AT THE TIME NO REDRESS that is what is wrong with this crazy law. that apart the fact the gov. are spying on where you go on line. looking at who you talk too even in instant messages etc IT HAS TO GO. no if or buts get rid of the crap.
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Re: andy
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and yeah committing a murder outside your house is the same as filesharing - what a hysterical comment to make ?
buy stuff, like you buy things like ISP connection, media players, ipods, big screen tv for your home entertainment systems = give back freeloaders to the providers of your joy and entertainment!!!! BE Honest and buy
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Re:
it shows that if an ISP can cut you off for ALLEGED filesharing (REMEMBER alleged, not PROVEN), it would be the same as you being locked up for being ACCUSED of murder without any hard evidence.
I dont think its fair to say that all fileshrers are freeloaders who just dont want to pay for things. many people i know (including myself) will fileshare just to assess whether something is worth buying... therefore negating any *loss* to the industry when we decide it is and we buy it.
it may be worth highlighting (although i dont think you'll pay any attention) that the people you are trying to defend are serial offenders in the art of taking content without consent (see remixes, samples etc) and manipulating laws to their own ends.
The biggest problem i personally have with this industry is that over the past i dont know how many years, they have constantly falsely inflated the price of their products to make high value gains (at the loss of the artists BTW). illegal filesharing exists because we dont believe that the 20track album consisting of pop trash is worth the ridiculous amount of money being demanded for it (i.e. up to £1 per track).
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Listen and learn
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Re: Listen and learn
It is also worth bearing in mind that music is old, its as old as we are. In human history the period in which musicians are among the rich people of society is at most 60 years. As far as I'm concerned that was an abberition and we are now returning to the norm, where musicians work hard for their money and their music has more worth as it is not simply another piece of mass produced, homogenous rubbish.
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legally shareing music online
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Re: Listen and learn
what is/will be your profession? how much do you get paid for your work? so you get paid money.dirty boy.
i hope sad donkeys like you are fired and are replaced by people who do all the work you do,for free. if someone becomes a billionare its cz they are good at making music otherwise no one would buy their stuff. even taylor whats her name must have some talent that appeals to whatever age group and i respect her for that. what is wrong with wanting to make money doing something you are good at?
that being said, record labels DO rip off artists. theyll go down anyway at least the bill will stay on to help genuine labels.
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Re: Re: Listen and learn
I was never demanding that we get everything for free but rather complaining that we've been paying too much in recent decades. I'm perfectly happy for them to make a decent living but I don't think that being a maker of music entitles you to be a millionaire.
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Re:
I get it via torrent and help the community by seeding back. Encrypted.
I have no desire to lose my connection because the **AA accuses me of file sharing.
Here is a scenario for you.
I stayed at work late to help a customer.
Got home a half hour after movie started on tv causing me to miss it. Free on cable tv that I have paid for, but illegal to download?
Next time you are making purchase, I will walk out half way through helping you so I can go watch a movie on their schedule.
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you still havnt understood
what i said was the same thing only much more gross than just fileshearing. which compared to murder is miniscule. but the same principal is i there in that senario people are accused with no day in court so you now answear my question would you like your whole family to be given a life sentence for a murder none of you committed.
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thanks guys - yeah 2 wrongs make a good thing for artist???
this is all I am saying!
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Re:
Come on, give us something more to laugh about!
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Re: Re:
Let's suppose I am in a foreign country, and want to watch some TV in English. Let's suppose the country has relatively slow Internet, so downloading a movie takes a few days. Let's suppose that I get homesick and want to hear my native language. Lets suppose there's a file sharing system that lets me download a movie. Then maybe I'd download it and watch it, hey?
Now, let's suppose I have to buy it for $40 because that's the only option. I think I wouldn't buy it because it's a want, not a need. When I get home, I might buy it if I want something in decent quality with the subtitles and packing... if (and only if) it's really worth while... but it was on TV, so if it isn't worthwhile getting the DVD then I won't buy it.
Now let's suppose there's some freakin' person who keeps saying "you have to buy it"... do you think I'd like them? You aren't making friends, here.
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Re:
illegal filesharing wouldnt exist (at the current level at least) if the corporates hadn't falsely inflated their prices.
effectively, the content industry has double-f*cked their artists by almost forcing people to start filesharing to get what they deem to be value.
putting it simply, i buy a cd which works out to cost me £15 for a 15track album (£1 per track)
i dont believe this is worth this amount. therefore i download 15 more tracks from another album (lets say from the same artist) for free (making the cost effectively 50p per track). this would seem more reasonable to me. therefore i feel my filesharing was justified because as a consumer it should be up to me to decide what value i apply to the products i buy, not the corporate money-grabbers who feel they have the right to dictate unfair pricing to me!
illegal filesharers are not to blame. the industry is.
pretty simple really
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Re:
File sharing is not inherently wrong. It maybe artificially illegal but there is nothing inherently wrong about it.
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hang on
I tend to avoid the majors and head for independent lables and artists but that is slightly off topic.
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Re: hang on
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400 million stats I got that from TorrentFreak site
pay for your media people - you will feel good in the end - good Karma!
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Re: 400 million stats I got that from TorrentFreak site
Is it wrong to try before you buy?
If the content is crap and I don't like it, should I still buy it?
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Re: 400 million stats I got that from TorrentFreak site
The media costs nothing - so why should I pay for it.
What you want is to be able to have your cake and eat it (sell copies and still retain the rights).
There is no moral right to have your cake and eat it!
These days I generally avoid the people who insist on asking for money in this way because I do not find their attitude morally acceptable.
I am very happy to contribute money back to the artist - either by attending a live event (concert or teaching session and maybe buying CDs as memorabilia of the event), by buying media from those places that don't impose oppressive downstream restrictions on use (eg Magnatune), or even by simply making a donation.
So Andy, if you are actually a musician and you want my support (or those of others like me) then you had better change your tune.
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Re: 400 million stats I got that from TorrentFreak site
Screw the haters, keep sharing!
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he wont answear
I see nothing wrong in trying before you buy.
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there are many legal ways to sample before buying
I have friends with a terabyte external drive that they take with them to social situations... none of the illegally acquired content will every be bought by them ever or his friens but they still enjoy their fav artists and share with others with nothing going back to the artist - surely this makes sense to people that have their own business and are trying to make a living from it ?
what a mad mad world where the artists that you love the most - do not see a cent of your appreciation
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Re: there are many legal ways to sample before buying
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Re: there are many legal ways to sample before buying
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Re: there are many legal ways to sample before buying
I don't want copywrong laws restricting and increasing the cost and price of perfectly good file sharing systems, like Napster, that can be used to facilitate the distribution of free content, and restricting and increasing the price of peoples Internet access (ie: like the laws that have limited wireless Internet open access points http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100228/2252288329.shtml ), invading my privacy, just because a bunch of selfish lobbyists that do nothing to promote the progress want retarded laws in place.
No, I want these laws gone, and the record labels et all should be forced to find their own business model that doesn't include using broken laws to exploit the public and destroy any technology that allows people to compete with them.
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Re: Re: there are many legal ways to sample before buying
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still no answear
1 are you now saying it is wrong for artists etc to send their music to myself and people in broadcasting in the hope we may give it airtime?
2 would you like your whole family to be given a life sentence for a murder none of you committed.
with question 1 remember UK radio stations pay copyright around £5 per play which should go to the artist i doudt the artist sees much of that due to money grabbing record companies.
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Support Talk Talk
If enough people show support then maybe the other ISPs will be swayed to join the revolt.
Fortunately I am a subscriber to Talk Talk (formerly Tiscali).
Paul.
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Back to the article
I have no doubt that there is an element of cynicism in Talk Talk's stance, they are a business and they recognise where their money comes from. They are positioned much more as a telecommunications company wheras Sky and Virgin Media, two other hefty broadband providers, are also content producers. Talk Talk is therefore unlikely to lose out due to this stance and could benefit greatly.
However I also think that they believe what they preach on this issue. They've been talking about it ever since DEB was first drafted and have made their position clear. For that they should be commended.
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Keep up the good trolling especially when on overtime cause you'll be unemployed as soon as they've got the dracional laws they want and they'll fcuk you over just like they do to the artists.
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what WILL happen
thats right disconnect the user
so whats it gonna be
A
or
B
you can't have both
and telling the court NO, well lets see how tha works....
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Economic Terrorism by hollywood
no people download for many reason your simple minded slow witted style reaks a a , lawyer don't be fooled this type a troll is everwhere today. they get paid to do this.
EXAMPLE
A tv and a vcr
how is that differant then say
a computer and a hard drive
SERIOUSLY
and if you hollywood numb nuts hadda got on the ball eral early before kids lerned to rip out commericals youd a been spotted in.
BUT again your slugs old world ancient relics of a time long ago. YOU just don't know your dead already.
NON of this matters and shortly you will see
when half a million get disconneced and have free time to wander over to parliament and voice displeasure
your going to see the party inpower now blsted to literal bits by kids that usually dont vote
a last note that since this copyright madness began my own membership of my hacker organization has increased ten fold in 2 months
you knw what that means yet andy?
IT means were united and thats the real membership NOT the associates or those that have forums and let everyone join
that figure again is a factor of ten.
its kinda scarey but ya know we will fight you and you undemocratic economic terrorism
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Re: Economic Terrorism by hollywood
No, the reason why they can get away with these kinds of laws is because they know we are all talk. Sure, we'll bitch and moan about it on the internet, but in the meat-space it takes more than an active, vocal minority to affect change; and we're an inactive, non-vocal minority. So no, we wont fight them. And they're counting on it.
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Re: Re: Economic Terrorism by hollywood
We are not a vocal minority, if it was a minority they wouldn't bother would they?
Second, the battle won't happen in congress on in the court of law, it will happen inside homes everywhere. Where people already made their feelings extremely well known.
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Pay more?
We pay when we go out to dine, to see movies, theather, shows, we pay when we go to the gym, we pay when we shop, they even try to make people pay in church and in schools.
I really believe those artists should go "#$%&.
I'm not paying those people any more, not a penny, they took the joy out of the arts and transformed into something ugly.
They can find other jobs, because if they counting on my money to have a living they can forget about it, cause it ain't happening. No more hand outs to the MPAA the RIAA or the Sofware Alliance, and if I can help it no more money to the big pharma either.
I'm fed up with those people crying wolf, lying through their teeth and trying to impose ridiculous laws that encroach on my civil rights and some even violate human rights.
I don't even fileshare, but I do find a lot of alternatives all legal and free as in freedom and as in beer. So if those people don't want to produce movies, music or any other thing for me that is fine.
I do believe people also have responsibility on the matter, when they use that crap from those artists and entities they are giving away their liberties.
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It is encrypted and anonymous. No SSL crap that can be spoofed by signing authorities.
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Talk talk
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Right Idea
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Re: Right Idea
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Go Talk-Talk
I kind of wish Talk Talk or iiNet was an ISP here in the US.
The only choices I get for high speed in my area is Wild Blue satellite (not acceptable for gaming, and has a ridiculously small usage cap) or Comcast.
No competition. =(
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Re:
They can probably go before an EU court on a point by point basis. Each request that comes in go before a judge with a different violation of what ever passes for a constitution in the UK, and also how it violate EU law. Being a layman I can see 18 violation of EU and UK law, there are probably alot more.
The new Internet Freedom Provision of the EU Telecoms Reform states.
"Any of these measures regarding end-users’ access to or use of services and applications through electronic communications networks liable to restrict those fundamental rights or freedoms may only be imposed if they are appropriate, proportionate and necessary within a democratic society, and their implementation shall be subject to adequate procedural safeguards in conformity with the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms and general principles of Community law, including effective judicial protection and due process. Accordingly, these measures may only be taken with due respect for the principle of presumption of innocence and the right to privacy. A prior fair and impartial procedure shall be guaranteed, including the right to be heard of the person or persons concerned, subject to the need for appropriate conditions and procedural arrangements in duly substantiated cases of urgency in conformity with the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms . The right to an effective and timely judicial review shall be guaranteed.”"
Just read that one section and you find 7 different ways to fight this in the EU court.
1) principle of presumption of innocence
2) the right to privacy
3) A prior fair and impartial procedure shall be guaranteed
4) the right to be heard
5) effective judicial protection
6) due process
7) their implementation shall be subject to adequate procedural safeguards
Then you also have the fundamental rights issue ...
CHARTER OF FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS
OF THE EUROPEAN UNION (applicable sections)
Article 8
Protection of personal data
1. Everyone has the right to the protection of personal data concerning him or her.
2. Such data must be processed fairly for specified purposes and on the basis of the consent of the
person concerned or some other legitimate basis laid down by law. Everyone has the right of access to
data which has been collected concerning him or her, and the right to have it rectified.
3. Compliance with these rules shall be subject to control by an independent authority.
Article 11
Freedom of expression and information
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions
and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless
of frontiers.
Article 13
Freedom of the arts and sciences
The arts and scientific research shall be free of constraint. Academic freedom shall be respected.
Article 36
Access to services of general economic interest
The Union recognises and respects access to services of general economic interest as provided for in national laws and practices, in accordance with the Treaty establishing the European Community, in order to promote the social and territorial cohesion of the Union.
Article 38
Consumer protection
Union policies shall ensure a high level of consumer protection.
Article 41
Right to good administration
1. Every person has the right to have his or her affairs handled impartially, fairly and within a reasonable time by the institutions and bodies of the Union.
2. This right includes:
the right of every person to be heard, before any individual measure which would affect him or her
adversely is taken;
the right of every person to have access to his or her file, while respecting the legitimate interests of confidentiality and of professional and business secrecy;
the obligation of the administration to give reasons for its decisions.
3.Every person has the right to have the Community make good any damage caused by its institutions or by its servants in the performance of their duties, in accordance with the general principles common to the laws of the Member States.
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LOL!
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And what if its not available?
Uh huh. Ok fine then, I put it to YOU to tell me where I can purchase things like seasons of The John Larroquette Show? This is a show I liked (mostly the first season) but thanks to copyright, I cannot legally buy or download it. The copyright holder WILL NOT release it in ANY form for me to purchase. Same goes for the following TV shows: VR.5, The Visitor, The Fugitive (from 2000, and was the VERY FIRST SHOW (series) EVER broadcast in hidef in America), and MANY MANY other shows that I enjoyed and would love to obtain legally, but cannot due to the people who hold the copyright REFUSING to provide me with a legal means.
Please answer this question, you smug corporate shill.
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Re: And what if its not available?
They had musicians play music and only got the licensing for the broadcast version and it's too expensive to license for the DVD versions.
How is this promoting anything? But if you received the first season as a gift and loved it and wanted more, where would you go?
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stop stealing, feel better
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Re: stop stealing, feel better
No one said any of your comments were intelligent, don't worry.
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Re: Re: stop stealing, feel better
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lol
Us photographers will not own our own photos unless we copyright them (buy paying) now this new law
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www.tvdigitalnopc.com.br
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www.tvdigitalnopc.com.br
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