Disgruntled Ex-Wikipedia Guy, Larry Sanger, Accuses Wikipedia Of Distributing Child Porn
from the desperate-much dept
It's no secret that Larry Sanger is no fan of Wikipedia. He's often credited as being a co-founder of the site, though some dispute this. He was involved in the creation of Nupedia, Wikipedia's predecessor, which was more of a traditional expert-edited online encyclopedia. While many involved in Wikipedia these days downplay his role there, Sanger has made a pretty compelling case that he was heavily involved in the early days. Either way, since he left, he's gone way out of his way to distance himself from Wikipedia, while setting up a competitor (again, an expert-edited encyclopedia) that doesn't get much usage. Every few months or so, he seems to find some way to pop up in the news, often using his connection to Wikipedia as the hook for why the press should cover his competitor, which appears to get almost no traffic whatsoever.His latest tactic is really pretty low. SimonTek points us to a Fox News article all about Sanger calling on the FBI to investigate Wikipedia for distributing child porn. While Fox of course plays up Sanger's Wikipedia credentials, they leave out the fact that he has been working on a failed competitor for years (they mention the company name, but not that it's a competitor). They also leave out much of the animosity between Sanger and Wikipedia.
This story actually got some attention a few weeks ago on Slashdot, where many commenters, rightfully, took Sanger to task. Sanger responded to the criticism by arguing a few points, saying that he was required by law to report his findings to the FBI. To some extent, on that point, he is correct, though it is an issue with the law that focuses on criminalizing even those who accidentally run across questionable material, rather than focusing on those who create and purposely distribute the material (the real problems). However, he does appear to go somewhat out of his way to publicize this claim. He could have just alerted the FBI and been done with it... but he republished his letter to the FBI on a mailing list. That certainly raises some serious questions.
On top of that, his complaint is not about actual photographs of child pornography, but drawings. Indeed, the courts have found that even such depictions count as child pornography -- though many people find that arguable about whether or not a made up drawing exploits a child in any way.
The real problem, of course, is that this (like so many arguments over this stuff) takes away from the real issue: which is stopping those actually responsible for child pornography. Attacking Wikipedia is not the answer and does little to help the issue -- especially when the attack comes from someone with a long history of animosity towards the site, and a failing competitor. Why not focus those resources on actually dealing with the real problem? Wouldn't we all rather that the FBI is focused on actually stopping those involved in the production of child pornography than wasting time going after Wikipedia? Part of the problem is certainly with the way the law is structured today, but it does seem that Sanger went out of his way to try to broadcast this attack when that absolutely was not necessary.
He makes it even worse in the Fox story by claiming that he was doing this to alert educators that Wikipedia is dangerous for school children. That's flat-out ridiculous. For the most part, it is not. It's quite unlikely that anyone is going to accidentally stumble onto those drawings on Wikipedia -- and they're equally as likely to find similar (or worse) stuff elsewhere. To call out all of Wikipedia as being unsuitable because of this is clearly going way too far.
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Filed Under: child porn, larry sanger, wikipedia
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FOX unNEWS
its as bad as getting life stories form myspace and faceplant er facebook
and while many i know do not use facebook htere are SOME reasons why everyone will say this is a bit over board like that rolling stones album cover
see in canada if you get bad milk from a store thats proven to have been shipped bad in past you'd sue the store then the store sues up the chain, now you go right for the gusto cause
SO should not the rolling stones be charged with kiddy porn and sent to prison? I do not think its there intent to distribute child pron but the controversy and picture is explicit enough to have people like this guy in the novel make accusations PERHAPS a html tag that can blur stuff like a image map might help?
AND i bet if the rolling stones got charged this issue would really heat up.....
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Re: FOX unNEWS
I don't know why, nameless.one, but i have a damn hard time reading your posts. Its like there is just something not clicking. maybe it is the weird use of line breaks.
Nothing against you, just something I have noticed.
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Re:
Indeed, but it's questionable whether drawing of fictional children constitute child porn.
The scarce resources available should be used to go after the creators of actual child porn that harms real children, not wasted on fiction.
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Re:
A. Learn to communicate properly
B. Mike said the law required him to report it to authorities, NOT on a mailing list
C. Did you go to OSU? They're the only ones I know that have this assanine habit of putting the word "The" where it doesn't belong....
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Or, for even more fun, universally define either "child" or "porn".
You got to love people who try to boil ridiculously complex issues into black and white one-liners....
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Does that include naked baby pictures? Does that include when someone takes a nude picture of themselves?
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"child porn is child porn, no matter the motivation. trying to come up with an excuse not to suggest authorities should ignore it is just wrong."
Now you're adding an exception for written word? Which is it?
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You better hurry up and report asstr.org then.
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You may have missed the part (you know, since you don't read the articles) where the FBI hasn't asked Wikipedia/media to remove anything. I imagine that the FBI know more about child porn than you, TAM.
Then again, child porn is great, according to the industry you blindly shill for, so maybe you do know more.
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BUT
The authorities did ignore it
", the Wikimedia Foundation has not been contacted by the FBI or any other law-enforcement agency with regard to allegedly illegal content on any Wikimedia projects. "
From the original article (update)
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http://www.al-islam.org/m_morals/index.htm
A THE BEGINNING OF SEXUAL LIFE
1 . BULUGH & RUSHD
Sexual desire is aroused in human beings at the age of puberty. In Islamic legal definition puberty (bulugh) is determined by one of the following:
1. age: fifteen lunar years for boys and nine lunar years for girls;
2. internal change (in boys only): The first nocturnal emission. Semen accumulates in the testicles from puberty onwards and more semen may be formed than the system can assimilate; when this happens, semen is expelled during the sleep. This is known as nocturnal emission wet dream or ihtlam in Arabic.
3. physical change: Growth of coarse hair on lower part of abdomen.
Since the sexual urge begins at puberty and as Islam says that sexual urge should be fulfilled only through marriage, it has allowed marriage as soon as the boy and the girl reach the age of puberty.
Now which view point Eastern or Western is correct may be debated and I will leave that debate to others accepting Rudyard Kipling viewpoint. "East is East and West is West and the two shall never meet."
The only thing new about multi-millennium long debate is the spillage on the internet.
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http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/view/?utm_campaign=homepage&utm_me dium=proglist&utm_source=proglist
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Re: Islam is a region or place in the world huh?
It seem that we need to look at the paradigm of each society. I think that everyone believes that the exploitation of children is wrong so if that is the definition of child porn then we all agree that child porn is wrong we just need to decide on what exploits children.
Watch making blanket statments. Seldom are they accurate.
written but not reread
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Re: Anonymous Coward
In your desperate need to appear and feel intelligent, you have overlooked important concepts. Master among them is the notion that facts are convincing and therefore, appealing. Your personal views are not convincing. Your argument is further diluted by your overt, questionless adoption of an external belief system.
Do you even know what you are debating? At one time the topic was child pornography in the United States. Do you think you are helping us to understand human biology?
"Semen accumulates in the testicles from puberty onwards and more semen may be formed than the system can assimilate; when this happens, semen is expelled during the sleep."
The rote recital of written word conceived by others is invariably a primary symptom of one's intellectual deficit. Echoing another's justifiable beliefs brings question to the parrot's creativity. Echoing another's unjustifiable beliefs draws glaring attention to your shocking stupidity.
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Honestly
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Honestly
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Reminds me of
His company has failed, so rather than try to be better, he will instead just try to make Wikipedia look evil.
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Stupid
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Honestly
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"On top of that, his complaint is not about actual photographs of child pornography, but drawings. Indeed, the courts have found that even such depictions count as child pornography ..."
Not necessarily. See Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition.
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Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
The Wikimedia Foundation is a tax-exempt 501-c-3 organization. It draws in over $10 million in annual revenues, though by putting much of that in the bank, its "program expenses" account for only 41 cents of every revenue dollar. (Look at their latest Form 990 filing, if you doubt this.) Most bona fide charities try to maintain program expenses ratios north of 80%, to demonstrate that they are actually serving their charitable mission. So, the Wikimedia Foundation is doing about half the job they should be.
If you look at the top 100 images accessed by users on the Wikimedia Commons site, you'll find that sex and porn dominate the list:
http://stats.grok.se/commons.m/top
Notably, we see...
#5 Category:Shaved genitalia (female)
#6 Category:Vulva
#11 Penis
#12 Category:Female genitalia
#13 Category:Ejaculation
#14 Category:Sex positions
#16 Category:Vagina
#17 Category:Erotic
#18 Category:Oral sex
#19 Category:Masturbation
#21 Category:Penis
#22 Category:Female masturbation
#23 Category:Sex
#25 Category:Male masturbation
So, somebody explain to me how we've gotten to this point, where a sex and porn image server is granted tax exemption. Is it merely a coincidence that Jimmy Wales's business just prior to co-founding Wikipedia was operating the "Bomis Babes" adult photography site?
Masnick, I'm sorry, but you're without a clue on how deep this goes. Let me know if you're interested in talking sometime about how Jimmy Wales reacted when I pointed out to him the potentially illegal child photography on his Wikia, Inc. servers that were hosting a "Spanking Art" wiki.
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Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
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Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
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Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
Thank you for underscoring the legitimacy of my complaint, "Any Mouse".
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Re: Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
And then the ad hominems come out. Just because a comment is anonymous doesn't make it less relevant. In fact, you're an excellent example: a person going under their real name who nonetheless manages to be a total douche.
Your argument is silly. The "most-viewed" images tend to be the catty ones, but there's millions of excellent images that don't get as many views individually but collectively far outweigh the stuff with nudity. Or in other words, nice try with the lies, damned lies, and statistics.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
If I endeavor to launch an "educational" website featuring pornographic images, may I also charter a business as a non-profit 501-c-3 around it, and drawing my salary from the tax-deductible donations I receive?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
Your arguments are easily exposed for their truths and as strawmen. Your fight against Wikimedia may have justifiable basis and I make no assumptions one way or another about that but this attack is frankly childish.
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And, is it a coincidence that the Deputy Director of the Wikimedia Foundation is a self-appointed expert in "zoophilia", so much so that he could add paragraphs of material to Wikipedia, without so much as a citation (other than a "wiki-link" pointing to Peter Singer) directing the reader to a more reliable source than his own mind?
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zoophilia&diff=next&oldid=845413
You Wikipediots will bend, twist, and contort yourselves and your positions so that nothing could POSSIBLY be wrong with how the Wikimedia Foundation governs what it publishes. I choose to be more skeptical of their mission.
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And again with the disingenuous claims… the edit you're pointing to is from 2003, back when there was not much of a focus on citing sources. Or the lovely attempt at associating the guy with zoophilia. I fixed nonsense on a fetish article once, does that mean I suddenly have the fetish? No. Writing about anuses doesn't make you an asshole.
As for your last bit, let me paraphrase that back to you: "You idiot, you'll bend, twist, and contort yourself and your positions so that everything POSSIBLE is wrong with how the Wikimedia Foundation governs what it publishes." And that's what you've been doing in this very thread. So pardon us if we don't take you seriously.
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Thanks for saving me the time.
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You wouldn't be the first. Where did you get the impression that 501-c-3 has a prude clause?
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Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
But don't give the troll (oh, just wait and see how he lurrrves that word!) too much attention. He's mostly sore because he got banned from Wikipedia back in 2006. He's been trolling since. Four years, man! That's sad! I think we have another sour grapes alert on our hands, people!
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Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Can_you_lick_it_!_%28Klashorst%29.jpg
Banne d from Wikipedia since 2006 is another laughable item. Especially considering my various edits there dating 2009:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=500&tagfilter=&title=Special%3AContributi ons&contribs=user&target=Thekohser&namespace=&tagfilter=&year=2009&month=8
...not to mention the 2010 edits (for payment) that you DON'T receive the handy link to.
Per usual, the facts are awfully difficult to grasp for the garden-variety, anonymous Wikipediot.
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Re: Re: Re: Why a tax break for porn warehouse?
…and really, you need a better word than Wikipediot one of these days. It just affirms your douchiness.
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Also, as to your last paragraph, teachers are not allowed to give children access to adult content. You don't seem to know anything about school firewalls. Why don't you ask a teacher?
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But the claim was that this wasn't about public opinion, but about "the law" and letting the FBI know. If it's about public opinion, then it goes back to being clear that this is about some guy who's upset that Wikipedia beat him in the market.
I was amazed at how much pornography was on Wikipedia when I found out.
You know where else there's a lot of porn? The internet.
Why isn't this general public knowledge?
Or it is.
As for child porn, I don't care if it is drawn, it is against the law and has no place in an educational site (or anywhere else).
If part of that educational site is discussing issues related to that content, then perhaps it is reasonable, no?
Also, as to your last paragraph, teachers are not allowed to give children access to adult content.
Oh come on. Now you've gone off the deep end. No one is saying that "teachers are giving access to adult content." Just because there's SOME questionable material on wikipedia doesn't mean that using it means that you'll get porn. I've used Wikipedia for years and I've never come across porn.
There's porn all over the internet. Based on your reasoning above, no school should have internet access.
You don't seem to know anything about school firewalls. Why don't you ask a teacher?
No, I actually know quite a bit about school firewalls -- and how ineffective they are. Why don't *YOU* ask a student?
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Mike, you showed your true colors regarding Sanger when you said, "He's often credited as being a co-founder of the site, though some dispute this."
SOME dispute this?
The only person in the world who disputes this is JIMMY WALES.
So, tell us... how recently was it that you and Jimmy had an expensive dinner together? You're obviously shilling for him. What's the catch? It's okay, you can level with us Techdirt readers.
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Reading comprehension is never the strong suit of transparent spammers, it seems.
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The post he was addressing specifically refers to Wikipedia.
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Only an extremely delusional mind would honestly believe that hosting a small number of pornographic images is the same as featuring them on your website.
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Larry Sanger makes me sick
Larry Sanger bitches.
Larry Sanger is such a
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re
Wasn't there a story here just yesterday about how the media industry just "loves" child porn, because they can use it as a wedge to control content on the internet? Yeah, same thing.
There's nothing more telling of a person's character than when they use victims of crimes like this for their own benefit.
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That's because you're not a 13-year old boy who was looking for it.
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That's because you're not a 13-year old boy who was looking for it."
Are you kidding me? If I were a 13 yr old boy looking for porn I think wikipedia would be the last place I would go. It seems like 25% of the content online is porn! I guess this access to adult sites is a problem if you cannot figure out how to click on "Enter: Yes I am over 18". Even if parents have Cybersitter or similar software on the computer it can be defeated with a couple of google searches. It is a scary world . If I had children the computer would be in the kitchen or some other non private area... furthermore if/when my children had a laptop it would run spectresoft or some other rootkit so I could keep a watchful eye on their online activities ... Perhaps someone should call the FBI on all those paintings of cherubs in the Metropolitan Museum of Art ...
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Whether it's Wikipedia or Wikimedia Commons, your argument still fails. Whatever its popularity, pornography is but a small portion of each website's content and none of the pornography is being highlighted as featured content.
Your claims are false and your motives suspect.
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Larry Sanger Accuses Wikipedia Of Distributing Child Porn
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My reply
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Depictions of child sexual abuse
The FBI has asked for more time before making public comment, and my senator and representative have forwarded the matter to the FBI. They don't seem to think that my report was "full of shit."
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Re: Depictions of child sexual abuse
Child porn is so demonized that supporting anything remotely related is political suicide. Yes, child abuse is wrong, pedophilia is bad, etc.. It's DISGUSTING.
But supposing that a politician will be rational about it is stupid, because if they don't also demonize anything remotely related to it, they'll get accused of supporting or condoning it.
So your senator & rep. supporting your argument doesn't make a difference at all. It's a good example of where appeal to authority fails. You appeal to the authority of the politicians, but those politicians aren't going to make a rational argument because otherwise they can be smeared as supporting/condoning child porn, whether or not there is "child porn" wherever you think there is some. Since their response is predictable, you can't use them as authorities, because they have a personal interest in demonizing the accused side no matter the reality.
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That you've spoken to your senator and representative leads me to suspect to an even greater degree that your motives are political and self-serving rather than an honest reporting of child abuse.
By the way, 18 USC 1466A is probably unconstitutional based on the Supreme Court's decision in Ashcroft vs Free Speech Coalition.
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More info about the law
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Ask yourself who is harmed in the making of fake child pornography and then ask yourself whether the purpose of a law that criminalizes fake child pornography is the protection of children or the censorship of controversial and offensive material.
No children are harmed by any of Wikimedia's properties, though I'm sure the claim that this is so is a convenient tool for those with ulterior motives.
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Who is harmed? Society as a whole--all of us, to a certain extent, and some of us more than others. The normalization of, shall we say, pedophilic sentiments, would be deeply, deeply damaging to the safety of children everywhere--that's just for starters--and the legalization of drawings of the sexual violation of children would be a decided step in that direction. I am not going to lay out my case in full here, but I might in the future.
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Do get off your high horse. You know very well that a bunch of drawings on Wikimedia Commons will never lead to the normalization of pedophilia, nor is their existence in any way "deeply, deeply damaging to the safety of children" (no matter how many times you repeat the word "deeply").
You can turn this into an emotional issue by referring to "drawings of the sexual violation of children" in the same tone as one would refer to the sexual exploitation of real children, but I think you know very well that such an attitude toward the former cannot possibly survive rational scrutiny. Like I said, you are full of shit.
As for the Supreme Court's opinion, you don't need to take this Anonymous Coward's word for it. Read the Supreme Court's decision and learn for yourself why the lower courts have failed to follow binding precedent.
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It doesn't say nearly as much as your bullshit assertions concerning Wikimedia Commons. Frankly, I don't find it the least bit surprising that the two people most loudly trumpeting their opposition to these drawings are also people who conceivably have an axe to grind against the Wikimedia Foundation.
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Listen, genius, this *is* an emotional issue, and rightly so, because we are talking about the safety of children here. I doubt you have children, and I doubt you have the first clue about what this means or is all about; I'm sure some people have to have some life experience deeply caring for the upbringing of children before they really get this. But whether the drawings in question are "of the sexual violation of children," well, that's simply a fact. That's what the drawings are of. If you doubted that, you haven't seen the images I saw. And dare I point out that it is precisely their knowledge of what the images are *of* that makes them so exciting to pedophiles?
You obviously didn't understand my point about the Fifth Circuit. They knew about the earlier Supreme Court ruling perfectly well, and understood it far, far better than piddling little Anonymous Cowards such as yourself. Whether they chose not to follow a precedent, or whether they decided that it was not really a precedent, it does not matter: they had the case in hand. It's now up to the Supreme Court, if they decide to handle the case.
It seems to me that the shit-for-brains here is you, since "full of shit" seems to be your strongest argument. You tell me to get off my high horse; I tell you to get your head out of the toilet. Jerk.
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Larry, I'm curious. Do you HONESTLY believe that there is ANY movement whatsoever towards normalizing pedophilia? Of all the silly things you've said in this threat, that is, by far, the most ridiculous.
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Fictional Child Abuse != Fictional Murder
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Looking for pics of naked boys on Wikimedia servers?
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Prtzthl
Most of those photos were taken a century ago by a notorious homosexual photographer named Wilhelm von Gloeden.
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Your bogus argument is the same one people use when they claim that video games promote violence or that movies glorify violence and drug use. It's possible some people may be influenced by playing those games or watching those movies, but that's never a good enough reason to ban them.
Only in a paranoid fantasy world would drawings of children being abused ever lead to the abuse of real children.
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Imagine that! Yet another Wikimedia critic trotting out allegations of child porn for whatever reason.
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Listen to Larry
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Yes, there is a nasty little movement devoted to normalizing at least some sexual relations between adults and children--relations that are now considered deeply criminal and deeply wrong by sane, civilized people. That there are people out there plugging for this is well documented on sites like http://wikisposure.com/ (BTW, search for "Tyciol" there, then look at the username of your most recent commenter) and you can read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform and this copy of an old Wikipedia article that was apparently deleted: http://www.bookrags.com/wiki/Pro-pedophile_activism . These sorts of people see nothing at all wrong with, say, 12-year-olds (that's Levine's cut-off; and for others, younger people) being able to legally consent to sex with full-fledged adults. I do.
A little background for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htAUysRPvNs Fascinating, and scary.
You mean you really didn't know all this? Or were you baiting me to say it, so you could mock me when I said it? Well, go ahead. Dig yourself into your hole a little farther, Masnick. Mock away.
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So because there are a few sick morons, the world is "normalizing" pedophilia? You're being ridiculous. No one -- NO ONE -- takes those people seriously, other than whatever small community of folks are making those ridiculous arguments.
That's the point, which you can't seem to get through your head.
You think there's some big movement to make pedophilia acceptible. There isn't. It's not being normalized and your actions don't do anything to stop the normalization of it because it's NOT being normalized. Most people find it horrifying and the practice has been quite reasonable considered awful across the board.
You're living in a dream world where you think because a few crazy people say something, that's becoming a standard view.
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I didn't say the movement was "big," I said, and I quote, "there is a nasty little movement devoted to normalizing at least some sexual relations between adults and children." This is true, and it is what you asked about. You asked, "Do you HONESTLY believe that there is ANY movement whatsoever towards normalizing pedophilia?" I answered your silly question. Yes, there is such a movement. At least one representative of that movement is present on this very forum.
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Your claims that you did this to *stop* the normalization of pedophilia suggest you actually believe that it's being normalized.
It is not. You are wrong.
I'm sorry Larry, but it's difficult to take you seriously. None of your arguments seem to hold up under scrutiny.
You claim you did this to stop the normalization of pedophilia. But it's not being normalized.
You claimed you did this because the law required it. But the law did not require you to make it public.
So then you claim you made it public because people needed to know about this. But that disagrees with your claim that you only did it because the law required you to do so.
Then people point out that the content you find so troubling might not be quite as troubling as you make it out to be when put in context -- which you seem to leave out -- and you respond by claiming you need to fight it to stop the normalization of pedophilia... which, again, there is no evidence that it's being normalized.
None of your reasons seem to hold up.
So I can't seem to figure out any reason why you're actually doing this, because every time someone pins you down on a specific point and proves you wrong, you jump to the next point in a circular fashion.
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Re: Larry Sanger
I do not move to normalize pedophilia. It is abnormal and I neither wish to label the abnormal as normal nor to make it the norm. Pedophilia is a biased fixation on pre-fertility, I do not wish for people to be fixated on such things. I wish for people to be unbiased and healthy balanced individuals who do not obsess over physical trivialities in such a way. I oppose it for the same reason I oppose gerontophilia, monosexuality and other paraphilic mental defects.
I have reported your post for your lie and personal attack levied against a commenter. You are engaged in the very ad hominem you accused others of, unfounded personal insults not based on anything I've said.
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Do you honestly believe people who aren't pedophiles are any more likely to think pedophilia is okay after seeing a bunch of drawings of children being abused? Is the moral and ethical argument against pedophilia so weak that it breaks down under the pressure of an artist's imagination? Were you at all persuaded to molest any children after looking at any of the drawings that you saw, or is it simply a matter of you being superior to the easily corrupted majority?
Once again, I remind you that we're talking about drawings here. The idea that they lead in any way to the normalization of pedophilia is just ridiculous. I'm not sure of your motives here, but I think they lie somewhere between the desire to attack the Wikimedia Foundation and an honest belief that you're doing something for the good of society. I only wonder which came first.
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Re: AnonCow
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Based on the fact that you agree with him?
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"You claim you did this to stop the normalization of pedophilia. But it's not being normalized." Sez you, with no defense of your claim whatsoever; you take a definition position, you should support it. I see a lot of evidence of a movement to normalize pedophilia. Quite a few comments on Slashdot suggested it; there's P.C.-hipness of Judith Levine's book, "Harmful to Minors"; there's the sheer fact that radically lowering age of consent laws is no longer ruled out of court; there's the attempted "scientific" normalization of pedophilia, for example the "personal perspective" viewable here. There's the fact that Wikipedia defends its right to host depictions of child abuse, and then Wikipedia's defenders like you attack me, rather than taking a closer look at their beloved project.
And, by the way, I did not say that I posted my letter to the FBI in order to stop the normalization of pedophilia. It really had more to do with Wikipedia, in particular--with holding Wikipedia to higher standards, the standards of the rest of the world. I don't have a special concern about stopping child porn, more than other bad things in the world. But it definitely is one of the bad things in the world.
To Anonymous Coward: my position does not rest on any such notion as that a particular person will be more likely inspired to molest a child after viewing a drawing--not just any drawing, by the way, but a drawing of horrifically disturbing acts, which would be sought out only by people who find nothing wrong with contemplating the molestation of children. My claim, instead (to simplify), is that a society that tolerates the graphic, gross depiction of children being sexually molested, in the interest of "history" or "education" or "reference" or "art" or however you might implausibly try to label it, is probably also going to be more tolerant of actual child molestation. It is part of a slow creep toward the lowering of another taboo, and in this case, a taboo that really should remain taboo. There are things that even you can agree are good that society is intolerant of, that it should be intolerant of, and the intolerance of which we should guard jealously. A society that tolerates these things is, to that extent, less civilized. Racism, slavery, and incest are only the easiest examples. Pedophilia is another. Child porn of all sorts--whether in photographs or in drawings--can appeal only to those who find pedophilic sentiments, if not actions, acceptable in themselves. But a civilized society finds all such sentiments deplorable and intolerable; and, I think, it should not tolerate them. To put it another way, pedophiles need no further encouragement, and they should continue to be shamed and made afraid by the law. Since there are no other consumers of child porn than people who get their kicks from imagining abusing children, banning the material by law is a perfectly justified way to do this.
I know one response: lolicon is legal in Japan, and they don't have so much abuse. There are at least a couple of points here. First, as far as I can tell (I admit I don't know much about it), "lolicon" refers to cutesy cartoon characters, of young-looking but indefinite age, having sex. This may or may not be easily labelled as depictions of child molestation. If it is--well, I think Japan should ban it. Second, Japan has less crime period. The question is whether they would reduce the amount of pedophilia, over the long run, if they were to get rid of depictions of child molestation. Furthermore, in a society that tolerates stories of children being raped, I would have serious doubts about crime statistics--there is a deep shame culture in Japan, which would make reports of child molestation a much more damaging. So I would not be at all surprised if it were grossly under-reported. For this and other reasons, I very much doubt that the child molestation statistics of the U.S. and Japan could easily be compared.
There is a lot more to say, but I'm going to have to leave it at that. At some point in the future I might publish an essay explaining my views on such things more fully.
I'm guessing you don't have children, Masnick. I don't know if you're married. If you are married, I wonder what your wife says about this. She might be able to explain it to you better, or at least more convincingly, than I can. I notice that there are precious few females the people who criticized me for reporting WMF to the FBI. I wonder why...
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Re:
(1) there's a "Reply to this comment" link that lets people read the comments in threaded mode. Not sure why you don't use it.
(2) Yes, I have a wife and a son, and my wife thinks your argument makes no sense at all and thinks it's best to just ignore you rather than waste any more time arguing with someone so logically challenged.
(3) Wikipedia is not a "beloved project" to me. I actually don't use it very much. So I'm not some big Wikipedia defender.
(4) Your entire argument seems to rest on "anything Larry Sanger doesn't like is evil and must be banned -- and anyone who questions where the borders are drawn, and why certain things are considered illegal is disgusting and should be punished." I'm sorry, Larry, that's not convincing.
Larry, there is no momentum towards normalizing pedophilia, no matter how many times you claim there is. What you described were a few people questioning why something certain thinks are considered pedophilia when it's questionable if they really are. It's people questioning whether the pendulum has swung too far. Pedophilia is a horrible disgusting thing that should be stopped at pretty much all costs. But what people are discussing here -- which you seem to have a near total blindspot for in your rage against Wikipedia -- is that some of the things that are lumped in as pedophilia really are not what most people think of as pedophilia and *as such* it actually does more harm than good, in that it takes away efforts from dealing with real pedophilia.
Anyway, from here on in, I'm listening to my wife. I have no time talking for talking to folks like you whose basic logic functions are turned off. I would suggest that you take a step back and look at this situation logically, but I fear you are way beyond the possibility of doing so. However, I will not reply to you any further.
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Re: Larry Sanger's thoughtcrime
I can only assume you've because a semi-omniscient telepath able to see into the minds of all humans, or else you understand cognition to such an extreme level that you can define someone's opinions and desires based upon their having seen a picture.
Here are the quotes that represent your cognitive distortions, all-or-nothing condemnations which are not supported by any logic or science.
"A drawing of horrifically disturbing acts would be sought only only be people who find nothing wrong with contemplating child molestation."
I would like to point out: contemplating means thinking about. Not as in "planning", but as in "comprehending." You yourself contemplate child molestation because it's an issue you have thought about in objecting to its depiction. Police officers and child protection advocates also contemplate it, because they must understand a problem if they are to combat it.
"A society that tolerates depiction of child molestation is probably going to tolerate it."
On what statistics do you assert such a probability? Tell me something: how many depictions of such a crime existed in the middle east when child brides such as Aisha were more common? How many depictions existed in the middle ages when people also married and impregnated pubescents?
Now, conversely, what is the rate of rapes in Japan, where such depictions are allowed in lolicon magazines? I do not think your assumption has any ground to stand on. Your "Japan has less crime, period" argument holds no water, you are confronted with a society whom you say should ban media because you blame crime on this media, yet the crime does not exist, so there's no actual statistical evidence supporting you.
You do have a valid point about the shame culture, but this would only invalidate using Japan's low crime as evidence for someone arguing that lolicon prevented child abuse. The core argument is actually that you did not present evidence proving a causal relationship between your idea that such media would increase abuse. I don't at all see the difference between this and saying depicting violence increases violence. Nor would such a correlation validate the idea that we should censor the idea of depicting travesty for fear that someone shall commit it, because travesty has always predated imagery depicting the idea. Child abuse existed before people decided to write or draw about it, just as harlots existed before pornography.
You also relate this issue to racism/slavery/incest, yet it is not illegal to depict these. Indeed, if it were illegal to depict racism, we would actually have to deny that racism ever happened. I couldn't make a film about Harriet Tubman, because I'd break the law by depicting her being enslaved.
Trying to make an argument about females/wives is sexist, you seem to be making some kind of point that only men oppose censorship? That would be flawed. Or perhaps, that only pedophiles would disagree with you and that only men are pedophiles? That would also be flawed, so probably neither of these is what you meant, but what do you mean by making this sexist observation Larry?
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And you accuse me of being "logically challenged"?
You are a git, and a logically challenged one at that.
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Mike Masnick, I have a Ph.D. in Philosophy
Good for you. I don't have a PhD, but I also taught logic, but I've found that anyone who highlights their degrees to prove an argument has none.
I regularly support my views on all sorts of things with very carefully thought-out arguments.
You did not do so here and everyone has called you on it.
I did so in this case: I presented you with a perfectly cogent argument, which you have chosen to ignore. You, on the other hand, have done little more than abuse me.
No, I did not ignore your argument. I read it, and responded to it, and you moved the yardstick. You claimed that you only wrote the letter because the law required you to do so. So we pointed out that you were clearly lying because you also publicized it -- which the law does not require. So clearly, there were motives beyond just "the law requires it." Then, you defended the first lie by claiming that you had to publicize it so people would know about this (contrary to your false claim that you only did this because the law demanded it). Then people called you on your second argument, because the evidence showed that what you were complaining about were NOT things that most people found problematic. Your response was to again move the line, and change the argument, claiming that you had to stop the "normalization" of pedophilia. So we called you on that obviously wrong argument, as there is no movement to normalize pedophilia. And your response is to move the yard line again, and claim that there is a movement based on a few individuals who are getting nowhere or who are merely questioning where the boundary should be.
No offense, but to argue that questioning where the boundary should be is "normalizing" pedophilia is really troubling. You seem to have decided what Larry Sanger doesn't like and because of that anyone who questions that is somehow a sicko trying to popularize pedophilia.
But that is, on its face, ridiculous.
Every argument you have made has been shown to be ridiculous.
Then you resort to ad hominems and ridiculous assertions against me (such as being sure I have no kids). If that's "logic" I now have even less respect for Ohio State, who apparently gave you your degree.
You are a git, and a logically challenged one at that.
And what, pray tell, is the logic of ad hominem attacks on those who prove you wrong?
You presented no logical argument. You just insisted that because YOU don't like something it must be bad, and when people questioned the definitions on the edge, you freaked out and claimed that they were "normalizing" the evil of pedophilia. You were wrong, and got called on it.
Give it up Larry. You are wrong and are fighting a ridiculous crusade. Tons of people have called you on it. It's time to stop digging a deeper hole.
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It almost seems like you are insinuating "I got a degree in logic therefore I am incapable of being illogical."
I guess that's the same reason someone with a degree in English never makes a spelling mistake.
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Really? Based on what, exactly?
A society that tolerates fictional child abuse is no more likely to accept real abuse than a society tolerant of murder in fiction is likely to be tolerant of actual murder. Most people are intelligent enough to know the difference between fact and fiction and are capable of separating their attitude toward one and the other. Only in fantasy would society stop caring about child abuse simply because they let a bunch of drawings remain online.
You argue your "position does not rest on any such notion as that a particular person will be more likely inspired to molest a child after viewing a drawing", but apparently you do believe that allowing such drawings to exist would lead to a collective cry of "who cares" if anybody else decided to molest a child. I find that exactly as implausible as the notion that it would lead directly to the molestation of children. Again, I ask you: Is the moral and ethical argument against pedophilia so weak that it breaks down under the pressure of an artist's imagination?
You say a society that tolerates drawings of child abuse is "probably also" more likely to tolerate actual child abuse, but that seems to me a form of sophistry. The unstated argument seems to go something like this: A society that is tolerant of real child abuse would surely have no problems with fictional child abuse, therefore a society that tolerates fictional child abuse would surely be the kind of society that tolerates the actual abuse of children. I'm sure I don't need to tell you such an argument is nonsense, but I don't see any other way to interpret what you're saying that would make even the slightest bit of sense.
I feel like I'm watching a bad magician ruin his tricks but continue to act like he's god's gift to performance art.
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As to A.C.--oy. I'll let somebody else unconfuse you.
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Wait, seriously? You claimed that I had not made any logical argument, so I laid it out in great detail... and your response is "this has gotten just plain boring."
Clearly, you mean, "Mike, you've proved my argument here makes no sense, so rather than admit defeat, I'll pretend I'm bored and go away without responding to a single one of you claims."
Very, very convincing. Good luck with the FBI.
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I just wanted to point out that JAPAN HAS NO PROBLEMS with underage sexual matters!
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20100426p2a00m0na012000c.html
http://news.asiaone .com/News/AsiaOne%2BNews/Crime/Story/A1Story20100416-210741.html
That's just in the past month.
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I should have expected this kind of response from you. When you keep moving the goalposts, you eventually run out of field.
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Jimbo Wales should be jailed
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Two publicized instances of child abuse constitute proof that Japan has no problems with "underage sexual matters"? I suppose in the brave United States, where proud crusaders such as yourself and Larry Sanger are ready to pounce on controversial drawings, there are no cases of child abuse?
I guess when looking for evidence for a claim that's based on ulterior motives rather than facts, anything that looks like evidence will do.
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Looks like somebody cracked under federal pressure
http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJimbo_Wales&action=historysu bmit&diff=38806204&oldid=35313912
Go cry to your mommies, pedo-porn supporters, one and all.
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Re: Looks like somebody cracked under federal pressure
Gregory... really? No one on this thread in any way supported pedo-porn. You are a sick, sick individual in branding people who are debating with you supporters of pedo-porn. I'm sorry, but it is impossible to take you seriously when you defame and smear people who are having a serious discussion, just because they disagree with you.
I would ask you, kindly, to retract your false and defamatory statement.
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Re: Re: Looks like somebody cracked under federal pressure
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Re: Looks like somebody cracked under federal pressure
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Uh. What, exactly, is stopping them? Schools and parents have control over their own filters.
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What's "stopping them" is the dual tactic of the Wikimedia Foundation and the out-of-control Wikimedia "community" to:
(A) Pro-actively push (via public speeches, cooperative initiatives, and feel-good PR about kids in the jungle using Wikipedia) for wider usage of Wikimedia projects in schools, at all age levels; and,
(B) An utter refusal to implement any sort of child-protective measures like adding filter-ready labels or age-specific warnings to some of the more objectionable and gruesome content that they insist on hosting.
Do you see how these two agendas are at cross-purposes with parents, schools, and libraries who would like to embrace Wikimedia projects, but can't due to the morally reprehensible attitudes and practices that emanate from the Foundation?
Your badgering of Larry Sanger to "explain" his motives -- repeatedly -- reminds me of a comedy sketch, where the house is on fire, but the person calling for the fire department to come save him is asked so many irrelevant questions ("What's your shoe size, Sir?", etc.) that it becomes laughable. Who cares what Sanger's ulterior motives are? The problem is apparent to him, the law obliges him to report it, and that should be enough for anyone who's not a pro-pedophile agenda pusher.
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Let there be no doubt: You are both full of shit.
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