No Fly List Members Sue The Gov't; Want To Find Out Why They Can't Fly
from the national-security dept
Apparently ten people who claim that they're on the official US government "No Fly" list have sued the US government, claiming that it's illegal to be on such a list where there's no way for them to confront their accusers or get themselves off of the list. Some of the people in the lawsuit are US citizens and military veterans. There's a great quote about how these people are "too scary to fly but not scary enough to arrest." It does seem like a valid question, but legally I doubt the case will go anywhere. The government will claim national security, and that will basically be that.
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Filed Under: civil rights, no fly
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Well fuck 'em.
Goddamn, it's stunning to me how much we've gone tits-up to the powers that be over the past twenty years. Where's your spines, people?
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Re: Well fuck 'em.
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Go watch "Thank you for smoking" and go reflect on how the movie isn't really about smoking, but about lying and "paying the mortgage".
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Re: Re: Well fuck 'em.
Sadly, the general public seems all to willing to give up their basic rights—rights the Constitution and its amendments are supposed to protect—for a false sense of security.
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Re: Re: Re: Well fuck 'em.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Well fuck 'em.
The issues we deal with now are not different in nature from the ones they were dealing with then, across the board. I can't think of a single example of a "new" problem that had no analogue in any part of this nation's history.
Franklin would understand our times much more completely than we understand his.
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I agree...
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Re: I agree...
Agreed. In fact, I think this is the key distinction between this situation and your run-of-the-mill national security issue. I have no idea of there is a legal foundation for this opinion, but I think that because these people are being restricted from a certain activity, instead of just trying to get the government to divulge information it has on them, the government should not be able to invoke national security. If the no-fly list were instead used by some government agency to monitor people's travel, this would be a passive action and should be covered by the national security justification. But because it's an active action, preventing flying on a commercial plane, I think it should be treated the same as being accused of a crime i.e. the Sixth Amendment should apply.
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Heh, even the constitution doesn't apply if the gov't utters the magic words "national security".
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This is a failure of the legal system.
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We need something like cap and trade
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I mean come on, the "underwear bomber" raised every red flag possible (most notably paying cash for a one way ticket) and no one stopped HIM for further questioning?
The airline's efforts should be directed towards basic common sense at the security level, not a mysterious list that is supposed to make us THINK we're keeping bad guys off the plane.
If security was even passable, we wouldn't need a list. Everyone who was a true threat to the plane would be stopped before getting on.
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Agreed, look at Israel, better security with less hassle.
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I would be ashamed to be a citizen of a country in which a jury would allow that.
Danny: "I think that... those on the list should be told why they are on the list and have some recourse for getting off the list"
No good: you are on the list because your name is similar to the name of a criminal, and if you want to get off the list just fill out these forms (no mistakes or you'll have to start over), agree to abide by our decision, sign away your right to legal action and ask us very nicely. On your knees.
ChurchHatesTucker: "Goddamn, it's stunning to me how much we've gone tits-up to the powers that be over the past twenty years..."
It certainly is. For a while I thought it was an age thing, that anyone who had spent time as a child listening to The Lone Ranger would immediately recognize the "no fly" list as an unamerican outrage, but then I began meeting people older than myself who bellyfeel all of this War on Terror nonsense.
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I think the point Mike wanted to make includes that it will never even get in front of a jury in the first place. The gov't will move for dismissal on the basis of national security and the judge will likely grant it, with prejudice.
/wish it weren't so
//cynical? Me? Nahhhhhhh... :-)
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It's not the juries, it's the judges. They probably wouldn't even let it get to a jury in the first place.
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> would allow that.
A jury would never even get to make that decision. A jury decides guilt or lack thereof (or in a civil case, liability or lack thereof). They don't get to decide whether suits can proceed or not based on national security.
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Schneier
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/01/tsa_logo_contes.html
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Or maybe they can simply change their names, that always seems to work.
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Like what Ted Kennedy did? If the list is valid, how can a judge overrule it? And if a judge has the power to do that, why not ask to have the whole list abolished?
"Or maybe they can simply change their names, that always seems to work.
Would you change yours, if it appeared on the list?
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Robert S Mueller III (Director of the FBI)
John S. Pistole (Deputy Director of the FBI and current TSA administrator)
Then pick a few prominent people or celebrites. For example, NYC Mayor Bloomberg, William Gates, Stephen King, Robert Pattinson, Gwen Stefani, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Angelina Jolie, etc. Load up that list with a whole bunch of names that don't belong there but also have a public audience.
Of course, it'll never happen, so we're stuck with the current mess. Oh well.
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My statement was meant to show the absurdity of our legal system and the fact that it does nothing to stop terrorists.
Heck, a terrorist would probably be more willing to change his/her name than a normal citizen. That's kinda the point I was trying to make.
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Constitutional Right?
Moreover, the lack of one's authorization to fly doesn't prevent someone from traveling - just not by air. There are other ways to return to the country and there's no "no drive" or "no sail" list. Yeah, its a burden but as long as they have valid US passports, they shouldn't be denied entry into the country. Sail to New York City from England; fly to Mexico and drive in. Fly using carriers not bound by US law or FAA regulation. Seriously, am I the only one who thinks of this?
I agree that the "no fly" list is rubbish and doesn't work in the least. But these odd "rights" that people think they have, have to go... driving is not a right - flying is not a right.
You have something to cry about when they come up with a "no travel anywhere anytime list" without being indicted for a crime.
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Re: Constitutional Right?
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Re: Constitutional Right?
Freedom to travel is not enumerated in the U.S. Constitution, but that does not mean that it is not a right (see 9th amendment), and I would hope that any U.S. court would defend it. My guess is that the government will fight hard to prevent the matter from going to court.
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This isn't really about travel anyway it's about equality. This is a law that applies to some people but not to others, which I find really offensive. I don't want people to be taken off the list, I don't want the so-called recourse process to be improved, I want the list abolished.
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Re: Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
Communication/free speech is a right? Yes? But maybe you can be put on a "no writing list", so you can still walk up to people and talk to them. Just not type them an email or write for a newspaper or send a telegram. How would you like that? Or kicked off the internet, which many are trying to do. Add you to the "no phone list" too. After all, telephones probably weren't what the "founding fathers" were thinking about, so it's OK to ban you from using one. They're not taking away your vocal cords or preventing you from using sign language!
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Re: Constitutional Right?
I believe that the argument is based the constitutional right to be "informed of the nature and cause of the accusation" (Sixth Amendment) rather that a specific "right to fly".
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(And don't forget that the list is a list of names, not of people. That's a crucial point that a lot of people miss.)
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Re: Constitutional Right?
I don't think they're arguing a constitutional right to fly. The question is whether or not the gov't has the right to block them from flying without telling them why. Not quite the same thing.
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Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
To ask for a reason before that standard is in place is to tacitly grant the DHS the power to do whatever thinks best.
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Re: Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
I'm not only talking about fairness here but a list that flags up hundreds or thousands of random innocent people, over and over again, is pretty much useless when it comes to fingering actual security risks.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
(And yes, the list is useless from a security standpoint.)
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Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
Specifically, the government has to pay you if they deprive you of your land or your liberty, and so while these folks may not have any way of getting off the no-fly list, they should be entitled to compensation, under the fifth amendment, in the same way that a landowner who has his land seized by the government is entitled to fair compensation.
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Re: Re: Constitutional Right?
Isn't quite the most transparent gov. in history Obama promised, is it?
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Re: Constitutional Right?
> But these odd "rights" that people think they have, have to go...
> driving is not a right - flying is not a right.
The Founders disagreed:
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
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Re: Constitutional Right?
> text of one's right to fly
Well, there's this bit from Article I, Section 9:
"No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."
Seems like singling out certain individuals (as opposed to passing laws that affect everyone equally) is the very definition of a bill of attainder.
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Re: Constitutional Right?
---
"Personal liberty largely consists of the Right of locomotion -- to go where and when one pleases -- only so far restrained as the Rights of others may make it necessary for the welfare of all other citizens. The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, by horse drawn carriage, wagon, or automobile, is not a mere privilege which may be permitted or prohibited at will, but the common Right which he has under his Right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Under this Constitutional guarantee one may, therefore, under normal conditions, travel at his inclination along the public highways or in public places, and while conducting himself in an orderly and decent manner, neither interfering with nor disturbing another's Rights, he will be protected, not only in his person, but in his safe conduct."
II Am.Jur. (1st) Constitutional Law, Sect.329, p.1135
---
"Complete freedom of the highways is so old and well established a blessing that we have forgotten the days of the Robber Barons and toll roads, and yet, under an act like this, arbitrarily administered, the highways may be completely monopolized, if, through lack of interest, the people submit, then they may look to see the most sacred of their liberties taken from them one by one, by more or less rapid encroachment."
Robertson vs. Department of Public Works, 180 Wash 133, 147.
---
"Personal liberty -- consists of the power of locomotion, of changing situations, of removing one's person to whatever place one's inclination may direct, without imprisonment or restraint unless by due process of law."
Bovier's Law Dictionary, 1914 ed., Black's Law Dictionary, 5th ed.;
Blackstone's Commentary 134; Hare, Constitution__Pg. 777
---
"...We are of the opinion that there is a clear distinction in this particular between an individual and a corporation, and that the latter has no right to refuse to submit its books and papers for examination on the suit of the State. The individual may stand upon his Constitutional Rights as a Citizen. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the State or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to investigation, so far as it may tend to incriminate him. He owes no such duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life, liberty, and property. His Rights are such as the law of the land long antecedent to the organization of the state, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. Among his Rights are the refusal to incriminate himself, and the immunity of himself and his property from arrest or seizure except under warrant of law. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights.
"Upon the other hand, the corporation is a creature of the state. It is presumed to be incorporated for the benefit of the public. It receives certain special privileges and franchises, and holds them subject to the laws of the state and the limitations of its charter. Its rights to act as a corporation are only preserved to it so long as it obeys the laws of its creation. There is a reserved right in the legislature to investigate its contracts and find out whether it has exceeded its powers. It would be a strange anomaly to hold that the State, having chartered a corporation to make use of certain franchises, could not in exercise of its sovereignty inquire how those franchises had been employed, and whether they had been abused, and demand the production of corporate books and papers for that purpose."
Hale vs. Hinkel, 201 US 43, 74-75
---
"...Based upon the fundamental ground that the sovereign state has the plenary control of the streets and highways in the exercise of its police power (see police power, infra.), may absolutely prohibit the use of the streets as a place for the prosecution of a private business for gain. They all recognize the fundamental distinction between the ordinary Right of the Citizen to use the streets in the usual way and the use of the streets as a place of business or a main instrumentality of business for private gain. The former is a common Right, the latter is an extraordinary use. As to the former, the legislative power is confined to regulation, as to the latter, it is plenary and extends even to absolute prohibition. Since the use of the streets by a common carrier in the prosecution of its business as such is not a right but a mere license of privilege."
Hadfield vs. Lundin, 98 Wash 516
---
"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them."
Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491
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"The claim and exercise of a constitutional Right cannot be converted into a crime."
Miller vs. U.S., 230 F. 486, 489
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"There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional Rights."
Snerer vs. Cullen, 481 F. 946
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"The use of the highways for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common and fundamental Right of which the public and the individual cannot be rightfully deprived."
Chicago Motor Coach vs. Chicago, 169 NE 22;
Ligare vs. Chicago, 28 NE 934;
Boon vs. Clark, 214 SSW 607;
25 Am.Jur. (1st) Highways Sect.163
---
"The Right of the Citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by horse drawn carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city can prohibit or permit at will, but a common Right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."
Thompson vs. Smith, 154 SE 579
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"... For while a Citizen has the Right to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, that Right does not extend to the use of the highways, either in whole or in part, as a place for private gain. For the latter purpose, no person has a vested right to use the highways of the state, but is a privilege or a license which the legislature may grant or withhold at its discretion."
State vs. Johnson, 243 P. 1073;
Cummins vs. Homes, 155 P. 171;
Packard vs. Banton, 44 S.Ct. 256;
Hadfield vs. Lundin, 98 Wash 516
---
Have you learnt yet, or will I have to continue living with the tyrannies your ignorance enables?
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Re: Constitutional Right?
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Consider this: your IP address looks like one a terrorist used to plot a bombing. Your internet connection is a privilege. You don't mind that being removed, right?
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"ip addresses are not ways to identify anyone, but names and date of birth are"
Well, I'll remember that next time you support people being sued for "piracy" with only an IP address to identify them.
But, if you knew anything about this list, you'll know that dates of birth are often NOT listed (leading to hilarious situations where small children have been temporarily detained). All this has is a list of names, which are sometimes shared by many thousands of people. It's useless, much like yourself.
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Re:
However, that is not the point. This is a case of the government taking away a a privilege without due process.
They can take away your driver's license, but not on a whim and without any way of confronting them and fighting to get it back (not to mention a way to prevent it from being taken in the first place).
The no-fly list is secret - so you don't know you are on it until you are stopped at the airport and prevented from leaving on an airplane (which can be of significant cost). There is no appeals process to try to get yourself off of the list even if you happen to be on the list by mistake.
This is a loss of liberty without due process issue that should be fought - as Mike pointed out, it may be pretty much impossible to win, but it should be questioned.
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Right to ...
There are no right's enumerated in the constitution because the constitution does not enumerate any rights. The constitution enumerates the powers granted to the government by the governed.
The biggest problem in my mind is we've completely steamrolled over the 10th amendment
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."
although the 9th amendment is also fairly relevent here
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
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The Government Should ...
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Re: The Government Should ...
Seriously, if you want the government to provide a protocol by which an individual can petition to maybe, in theory, eventually be allowed to fly again, you are missing the point.
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Government stance:
National Security
National Security
National Security
*GASP*
National Security
National Security
National Security
National Security
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The entire US government is the stupidest bunch of turds in the punch bowl
It doesn't even seem to matter who is voted into office anymore, and probably hasn't for at least 50 years, because the real power in this country is completely unelected, and exists solely to propagate itself for eternity. What a fascist shit-hole we have become! When these psychotic idiots start putting toddlers on their list, you know we are doomed as a nation, because legions of pathological psychotic idiots are running everything, and elections are just window dressing to keep the roiling masses placated with the ludicrous idea that they actually have a say in the governance of the country.
Enjoy the sheer wretchedness of the rest of your lives here, but I am not going to hang around to see the delayed fulfillment of George Orwell's worst nightmares. Maybe see you in the Bahamas, or Antarctica, or any place where this Alice in Wonderland reality hasn't yet taken root. I wonder when they're going to re-name the DHS goons "Volkspolizei"? Give it time. I have given it too much already, so take the money and run is my new mantra.
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Re: The entire US government is the stupidest bunch of turds in the punch bowl
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Freedom of movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law
Bush raped the constitution and Obama is partaking on it too now.
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Freedom of movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law
Bush raped the constitution and Obama is partaking on it too now.
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