Lars Ulrich: Underestimated File Sharing.. But Proud We Sued
from the yeah,-ok dept
Jari Winberg points us to a big Billboard story about Metallica that has some quotes by the band about this whole internet thing. You recall, of course, that Metallica became the poster-child for anti-internet activity, when it became the first to sue Napster, back in 2000. Since then, the band has often tried to rehabilitate its online image, and has even done a few creative online things -- but still has trouble shaking the anti-fan image it put forth with the lawsuits.In the interview with Billboard, Lars Ulrich, who was the band member who led the charge against Napster, first talks about "The awesomeness of the Internet" in that you've got "the whole world at your fingertips" and how great it would have been for him as a child (until the older version of himself would have sued him for listening to music... but I digress). That leads to the obvious question from Billboard about Napster, where Ulrich notes that he fully expects his obituary to mention Napster in the opening paragraph and then says the following:
"That's something I have to accept, and I accept it," he says. "But it's not something that plays a big part in my life in 2010. I'm proud of the fact that we stood up for what we believed in and took a stance. Were we caught off-guard? Absolutely. Were there some gross underestimation of what this thing was? Yeah. But it came from the same impulsive spirit that drives everything else this band does."I keep trying to parse that, but I'm not sure what it's actually saying. He's proud that they sued... but it was an underestimation? An underestimation of what? That they'd be able to sue file sharing out of existence? If that's the case, then why be proud of suing and hurting the band's reputation?
Earlier this year, we pointed out that Metallica is a band that makes the vast majority of its money from touring -- over $20 million, versus about $1.5 million from album sales -- and suggested that the band's attack on Napster seems really short-sighted when you consider that. They were fighting over the scraps -- when embracing the fans likely would have resulted in much greater live and merchandise sales. In fact, the band's manager is asked how the band is dealing with lower album sales, and he notes that it's no big deal because of all the other revenue sources:
"It won't change anything else we do," he says. "I'm trying not to be cocky about it, but for Metallica, at their level, the kinds of things you might think about to replace income are minor compared to what you make playing tours and selling merch. We're just finishing 225 shows worldwide [in support of "Death Magnetic"], and these are massive shows. We can play anywhere. What else do we need to do, really? If we sell fewer records, so be it. Of course I'd rather sell more, but I can't do anything about the size of the market, and neither can they."Yeah, well, if you hadn't pissed off all those fans, you could have actually increased the size of the market willing to attend concerts and buy stuff... but... whatever.
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Filed Under: file sharing, interent, lars ulrich, metallica
Companies: napster
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The way I read it...
With that being said, it also makes me realize they just don't give a crap. They had their minds made up and nothing anyone else could say or do would change them. Talk about closed-minded.
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Re: The way I read it...
Bingo. As a once-fan myself, when they refused to listen to us, who purchased their music, supported them up to the Napster change, and decided to crap on us, I had enough and said "Fuck you" right back to them.
If $20 million is all they're making, I can only take great pride I stood up to this band, refused to buy into their music, to voice my opinion and that it made more a difference than shutting down Napster ever did.
If Lars wants me to return to supporting the band, he needs to stand up against COICA and explain why their lesson is applicable here.
Until then, this band is dead to me.
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Re: The way I read it...
Is it any surprise that they were completely ignorant along with it?
"Hey guys, we could make more money than we are now. Should we do it?"
band: "NO!"
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My recollection is that only Napster was sued.
Assuming my recollection is correct, just what was it that upset fans?
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Like, duh. Did you even read the story?
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Er, that they tried to take away a cool tool for getting music they loved?
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hehehe.
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It was basically an option that fans wanted, that wasn't being provided by ANYONE else, and the industry (and Metallica) thought that the best option was to sue and block off any attempts at digital media.
It wasn't until half a decade later when actual legal services started appearing, which basically summarizes the whole situation.
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Then, when metallica's next album came out, it did relatively poorly and Lars again blamed the fans, not the fact it was just a sucky album.
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That is why I'm mad
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F**k Metallica
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Re: F**k Metallica
Almost all of Metallica's concerts they play older songs. They have to. All the new stuff is garbage.
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Metallica owes is entire success to fans infringing copyright. Back in the early 80s radio did not play their brand of metal and neither did MTV.
Alt bands such as Metallica built fan bases when their fans shared cassettes with friends. Those new fans shared more cassettes... and so on and so on.
Metallica's first independent album, Kill 'Em All, reached 120 on the US Billboard chart. Without any radio, television, mainstream press, or any videos. Heck, it reached number 12 in Finland and 28 in Sweden.
Kill 'Em All did so incredibly well because fans had been sharing Metallica's demo tapes since 1981. Before even being signed to an independent label, Metallica were huge in the alt metal movement. All because its fans shared its music.
Which makes Metallica's attack on Napster users so incredibly ironic.
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You know, I was just about to post the very same thing.
I didn't hear about Metallica from the radio. I heard about it from their denim-jacketed fans that I hung out with in high school. They all had bootleg copies of "Metal Up Your Ass" because it wasn't available at your local Strawberries.
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Don't believe me?
[url=http://www.cracked.com/article_18500_the-5-most-famous-musicians-who-are-thieving-bastar ds.html]They're #3[/url]
SONG JACKERS!
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Damn, I hang out in forums too much...
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Irrelevant
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Re: Irrelevant
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And Enter Sandman is overplayed and way over-hyped.
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Post Justice Metallica just sucks. Enter Sandman was the introduction of teenyboppers into "heavy metal" and Metallica into greed.
From a band that has "allegedly" plagiarized many songs, their stance on theft is rather ironic. More than the obvious stuff that has been documented, I hear a lot of classical guitar riffs that are heard note-for-note in Hammet's solos.
So what I am trying to say is, fuck Lars.
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Re: Re: Irrelevant
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Re: Irrelevant
You mean, Nothing else matters.
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Everything Metallica predicted about artists getting screwed has pretty much happened.
You gotta give Metallica credit for that.
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Name an artist that was "screwed".
And I don't mean "name one that is whining". I mean: show me an artist that dropped a tax bracket because of piracy.
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Care to elaborate? What did they predict and why do you think it happened? Because, from where I'm standing, it looks like Metallica just screwed themselves, as are any artists who refuse to adapt to the current market realities.
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Lars is a complete idiot that has no idea what he is saying before he is about to say it and because of that combined with his stupidity in never being able to admit that he is wrong gets him into these types of situations
Hetfield is a recovering addict who was at the height of his substance abuse at the time all this came out.
Hammett is fairly unexceptional in his talent and while not exactly an idiot, he is a complete whimp that pretty much allows the other two to to push him to the back all the time (ask mustaine about what kinda whimp he is)
the only person with any kind of sense was newstead who got tired of it all and quit. (have not heard much from him but id be interested to thats for sure)
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There they sat in front of congress showing themselves to be completely self-centered corporate shills. Liars. Fakes. Traitors to their army of fans who put them where they were, gave them what they had.
Never screw the fans. They're the ones with the money.
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The one good thing...
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Re: The one good thing...
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If you were a house builder that built a house, and then someone walked in and moved there family in without buying the house. Would you just look at yourself and say "well at least someone is living in a house we built"? No you wouldn't, you'd go to the court and have them kicked out of the house so you could sell it.
I agree that the music industry was very short sighted in there ideas of file sharing. They didn't understand it and had no idea on how to market something like that. But then again, back in 2000 apple didn't even understand how to market stuff like this.
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Because I sense you are new, I'm only going to point out one of the many flaws in your post:
Songs != houses. We're not even talking apples to oranges. That analogy is completely wrong in every way.
Lurk moar.
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and the backlash against them was because the platform they used to make it big, was no longer profitable for them. So since the platform advanced to the point that they saw a minor drop in income they decided to sue. I'm not talking a drop in income to the point of saying they had to choose to live in a 5 bedroom McMansion as opposed to a 6 bedroom villa, I'm talking I only have 6 cars for the week instead of a car for every day of the week.
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You see the original band have all the cards, it can create new material, it can create new objects and most importantly it controls their own feet meaning they have their shows which is where the f'ing money really is for bands, the distribution of music in radios was free, the distribution by fans was free only the selling of CD's was paid but that fail when MP3 players displaced CD's.
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First of all, you cannot compare viewing a house before you buy it, to downloading a song off napster. The majority of people who download music for free are not doing it to "try before you buy", that is their avenue for getting free music. Yes, some people will actually still buy thet physical CD, but Napster and Limewire are not legitimate ways to download music for free, thats just a excuse for you to get it for free without getting caught.
Also there is no such thing as being mislead into buying a house that turns out to be garbage. That is the whole point of open houses, and to schedule a appt to view the house, so you can do your research on it and make sure its good, same way with a car.
And i'm not even going to debunk you on the "suing metallica for making horrible cd's" cause thats absurd and you know it.
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The analogy of the house was a simple one/. I was simply saying that both the house and and a song are a product. Intended to create revenue, not only for Metalica but for there record comany. You could substitue any product in my analogy. A car, software, a DVD.
And as far as being mislead, I have no idea what that even has to do with anything. Are you saying that someone is mislead if they buy an album and don't like the whole thing when they get it home? I don't even understand how that would work.
In your own words. The people are going to napster and limewire to get free music without getting caught. My question would be, who are you or anyone else to demand that the music you hear should be free.
I've agreed with everyone about the fact that Metalica was shortsighted in sueing over this. But back in 2000 things were a bit different in the record industry. So who is anyone to condem these people for standing up and trying to protect what they see as there rights?
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Re-read your posts.
"But back in 2000, who saw it coming?"
"I saw it coming too."
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Pay for work
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I also stopped listening to them for a long time as a boycott -- but then decided that was counter productive because I really liked some of their songs -- S&M album in particular. Why deny myself that joy?
I still refuse to see them in concert or give them a dime of my money because they acted very stupidly and hypocritically (see Ima Fish comment above).
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And all the money the labels milked out of the Napster fiasco? How much of that do you really think made it into a 'protected' artist's pocket? I'd be surprised if they say more than a token pittance.
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That's true. When Ford sells a car they get paid, and then they have to sell another car.
The problem we have with the entitlement attitude in the music industry has nothing to do with getting paid for selling CD's, but that they feel they should get paid over and over for simply creating a song.
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And btw, had Metalica not made any sales, they wouldn't be with us today.
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Their income has always been derived primarily from live shows. You dont need to sell albums to profit from live shows. (hint: labels force artists to tour in order to promote the album, not the other way around)
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a sliver of remorse?
I may be going out on a limb here, but it seems as thought hes kinda/sorta admitting that it may not have been the brightest idea. but hes proud that they all made a decision and stuck to it. As misguided as it may have been.
"Were we caught off-guard? Absolutely. Were there some gross underestimation of what this thing was? Yeah. But it came from the same impulsive spirit that drives everything else this band does."
He seems to be saying that they had no clue how big file sharing would become, that this is what the fans would want, the direction that technology was going, and how much their lawsuit would draw a lot more attention to the fact that music could be downloaded. Which, by the way, actually was a big contributor to the growth of file sharing.
In the last sentence he tries to justify their knee-jerk reaction to something that they didnt understand (and didnt try) by saying that its just the way they are.
Its a shame that instead of trying to figure out how to use it to their advantage, they just listened to the labels that only told them how much money they were going to lose on record sales. Not realizing how many fans (and how much money) they would lose in the process. Since money is their main concern, as opposed to making music as they claim, then they should have looked at the bigger picture and realized that there was more money to be had if they would have just given the fans what they wanted.
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Re: a sliver of remorse?
That's something to be ashamed of. not proud of.
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Everybody.
Nobody had seen anything like it before
...are you seriously that ignorant? no... you must be trolling.
and nobody had any real vision on what to do until Apple came up with Itunes.
you can't be more wrong.
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"But there would be no way that Metalica would be what they are without selling albums."
"I was a fan before metalica started headlining shows."
P.S. Bands don't make money selling shiny plastic discs, labels do.
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Like I said if you built a house, would you just let someone move in? No you wou7ldn't. Even if the house looked just like the house next door. YOu would still expect to be paid by the person who moved in.
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I would probably charge for doors, door handles, locks and windows, though.
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Even if it costs a penny a song to reproduce, that becomes a pretty high number multipied by hundreds of thousands.
And as for napster, limewire, and all the rest. I agree they saw the inovation in what hey were doing. Did it change the face of music today? Yes it did. But the reason record companies didn't fall into line with them is because there was no profit shown in what they had to offer. That didn't until apple proved that even with file sharing profit could be made.
Like it or not, the music buisness is call a buisness because it is one. It's there to make money. And if it's not obvious that money can be made, they won't be going there.
The house is no different than a song. It's all a product created to generate income.
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Then you won't mind paying me every time it provides you, or anything related to you, a use?
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That is the choice of those business persons, and should be a calculated one at that. There was no MTV before MTV, so how could they know there was money to be made?? They tried it out, saw it worked, and now they don't even play music videos anymore. Avoiding a market because you can't see it's potential is a choice, and a poor one at that.
The house is no different than a song. It's all a product created to generate income.
They are both a product created to generate income, yes, but they are still QUITE different. For instance, two people can't own the house at the same time, but you can have millions of copies of that song out there being enjoyed simultaneously. One is a physical product, the other is really nothing more than air waves moving at specific frequencies....
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If I buy a song, I understand that I shouldn't necessarily be able to duplicate it and give it away, however I should be able to duplicate it for my personal use (my mp3 player for my work out, my cd player at home and my cd player in the car) for convenience. Otherwise the benefit to the product is gone.
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That of course is not what Napster did. They allowed a venue for easy access to copies of material, that the people who posted it did not have a right to distribute.
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Like all the bootleg copies of their stuff that made them popular?
I can guarantee you - I bought every Metallica release up to S&M - and when I first heard them, I can also guarantee you; it wasn't something I already owned.
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The house is no different than a song. It's all a product created to generate income.
Why has music been provided for 'free' then over radio since the early 1900's?
Why didn't that kill their market?
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And yes, if I don't pay for it it is free.
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But I'm sorry back in 2000, people didn't see how that would play out. Napster wasn't looking at trying to change a business model. They were looking for a way to exchange music quickly and cheaply over th internet.
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Napster was also trying to develop a following so as to sell ad space to make money at it. Similar to the way radio works. thats why the music industry went after them. there were (and are) quite a few things they can do to use the same philosophy to modify there own businesses. But they dont want to eat into their short term profits to ensure long term solvency.
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They could have worked with Napster to provide a legal platform, that gave the cd production a cruch or two to hobble on for a short term while the world adapted and then attacked the limewires and kazaa's to make the statements of piracy would not be tolerated.
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I just made a copy of a track.
It was free.
I have just gone to a band's website where they are offering a download of their song at no cost to fans.
I just downloaded a copy into my computer.
It was free.
Anyone can go to any number of internet sites and find a song they want and download a copy for free.
It is the distribution system, formerly a physical project, that is forever changed. Digital files are now a disposable commodity.
Time for labels to change the record.
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And if you haven't noticed the record companies have changed. In no small part to issues like this.
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Here is what has sold in the first week.
"Apple sells 450K Beatles albums, 2M songs so far"
http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2010/11/23/5516829-apple-sells-450k-beatles-albums-2m-songs-so-f ar
That is almost 45 albums a second all week and just under 200 songs per second each and every second of the week.
What was the good reason the labels took issue with?
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Was that short sightedness? I think so. But that's not what this article or my comment was about. It's about Metalica and Lars saying that he's proud of his actions.
If someone came to me and said I might lose hundreds of thousands of dollars. I might be reluctant to be the first to take the step myself.
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1 After you read a response to want to respond to. If you click the "reply to this" link instead of just going to the bottom boxes it would be a lot easier to follow what you have to say. Im just trying to help.
2 Your the one who took it in this direction trying to defend him. dont get me wrong I wasnt criticizing him either. I was just giving my interpretation of what I read out of his statement. I am one of their fans that they lost when they started all of this.
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you have to remember in your scenario that when you're making millions that 100,000 is less than 10%
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sincere
We accept that we pissed off loads of people, we can't take it back, after all.
We didn't really understand the significance or the consequences of trying to crack down like that. We also didn't know all we needed to know to make a good or different decision.
Even though we got pilloried, we feel good that we stood up for our principles.
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sivad
2) Please back up your statement that "...most tours throughout history, don't make money." Touring and merchandising is where bands make the money, not from record sales. It has been noted all over the place since 2000 that a) bands get a sliver of a portion of sales from each CD and b) none of the award money from these 'protection actions' has actually made it back to the artist.
So let's recap: copyright infringement is illegal, but is not theft. And producing and marketing intellectual property IS NOT THE SAME as building and selling a house or car. Please stop trying that analogy.
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There are plenty of business models that are passed over because there isn't a profit seen. Does that mean the model is worng, not really, it could just mean the bean counters aren't looking in the right place for the profit. Tha is exactly what happened in the music business. When the were forced to expore other options they did.
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PLEASE stop with the house analogy. Physical property and intellectual property are not the same thing. You cannot keep trying to twist this analogy to prove a point when the whole thing is flawed to begin with.
Thank you!
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Re: Metallica
At the very least, quote the person you are replying to. Nobody can tell what point you're trying to make otherwise.
Now, then.
1. Your house analogy falls down, because if someone moves into that house, it means that other people can't move in themselves. In other words, you are depriving others of something. That's not true when you make an unlicensed copy.
2. Infringement is not theft. Not under the law, and not under common sense. Making your own copy is not "stealing."
3. It costs money to make copies; that's true. In the case of infringement, none of those costs are borne by the rights holders. Metallica doesn't have to pay me every time I make an MP3 of their CD. My copy costs them nothing.
4. It also costs money to record that album. Those costs should be recouped. Nobody here is arguing against that. But how they recoup that depends on their business model. When that content can be copied and distributed at no cost to the record company, and such copies are impossible to prevent, then selling copies is a bad business model. Advocating it means that you're telling people not to make money.
5. In case you don't know, most bands on a major label (and most on indie labels) will never make any money whatsoever from artists' royalties. That's because the artists' royalties pay for all the recording costs, most of the promotional costs, and (often) some of the tour support costs. According to major labels themselves, the "failure rate" is 90%. So: if you're not making money touring, you're not making money, period.
6. There's no evidence that piracy is the cause of the drop in CD sales. During the Napster era, CD sales increased. It's only in the past 5 years or so that they've declined. This is probably due to a number of non-piracy-related factors: the fact that the CD is a dead format; the fact that nobody is "re-buying" their old LP's in CD format; increased competition from DVD's, video games, etc; and the bad economy.
7. Even given all the factors in #6, consumer spending on music has increased. They're just spending money on stuff other than CD's.
Now, none of those factors would be apparent to a musician in a heavy metal band in 2000. But they damn well should have been apparent to the businessmen who ran the labels. Not only were they clueless then, but they're still clueless now.
And even disregarding all of the above, one thing should be apparent to any artist: Those people who share your music are your fan base. It's a bad idea to piss off your fan base. It's especially bad to do it for the sole purpose of getting their money. That's just common sense.
If you want the mind-numbing details, I wrote a post on my website called Why Musicians and Labels Should Embrace Filesharing. It should answer most of your questions, I hope.
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That's the dumbest thing I've read in a long time, and I read some pretty dumb things yesterday... The same 'design' of a house, sure, but it's not the same house. It is made from different wood, different screws, different granite counter tops, etc. It is absolutely NOT "the same house", no matter how you look at it.
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You have to remember that he has a persona to maintain that is a major asset to the band and coming out and saying sorry might actually hurt their bottom line.
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And I heard about Metalica the exact same way. From the headbangers I was around. Not from the radio. Just because they started there by word of mouth through fans (most bands do start this way) doesn't mean that they have to roll over and take a loss because there fans want it that way.
And Disheval, that's been my point the whole time. My origanal question was, why should the get beat up for trying to protect proprerty that they clearly have rights to. Right descision or wrong.
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people understand you ,they just disagree with you.
physical property (house) and intellectual property (music) in digital form are different. if you buy a house its yours. You can repaint, remodel ,resell, even duplicate it(on another lot). With music the artists, and the labels, say that you can do none of that. If you buy a cd you can only play it when where and how they dictate. Anything other than that they will take your physical property (i.e. house). So even they believe that there is a differance.
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I get your analogy, but in the eyes of the law, they are NOT the same things. Sorry.
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Do I believe you should be able to copy your CDs. Hell yes I do.
I don't believe that if you do make a copy you should have the right to put it out on the internet for everybody to have. Is doing so stealing. maybe that's the wrong word to use. But the fact is that in 2000 people didn't look at this in the same light as today. Business models change over time. That's the nature of any buisness.
The idea that record companies don't make money on the songs they produce may be a somewhat real arguement. But the fact that they go to pay for the recording of these songs does mean that there is a possible loss to the recording companies, when people give these things out freely. For the songs to be recorded the money has to come from somewhere.
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The labels did. Back in the 70's (I think) they went after people for recording on cassette from other cassettes, records, and radio. thats how personal use first came about I believe. The DMCA (at the behest of the labels) changed that. in 2000 the labels were familiar with alternative formats. Instead of adapting to it, like they did with cassette (and arguably CD), they decided to fight it. What started this whole thing with metallica is that the labels used them to fight napster for them this time. Be it because copyright ownership or not Im not sure but metallica are the ones who pursued it (being pushed by the labels), thus taking the fallout for the labels. I could be mistaken on some of the details but the overall chronology should be accurate.
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Lars... say it with me... "I was wrong!" See? That wasn't so hard. &_&
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We are still talking about this a decade later?
Furthermore, the central argument Lars had wasn't even about the money, it was about the fact that Napster came along, put their music out there for anyone to grab, and didn't ask permission to do so. Metallica are notorious control freaks. In 1993, they sued their record company over the rights to own their own music. This was to prevent Elektra records from selling "Sad But True" or any Metallica song to someone like Chevy for a commercial. If Chevy want to use a Metallica song in a commercial, they'd have to ask Metallica themselves. Now here's Napster, taking distribution of Metallica's music out of their hands apologetically. Given Metallica's history, it really came as no surprise to me when they went after Napster. I wasn't happy about it because I knew nobody would understand it, but how can you argue that what Napster was doing was fair and just?
If I decide to write a book, I'd like to be the one to decide how that book gets distributed. Do I want to sell it? Or maybe I'll offer it up as a free download? Up to me really, after all, I'm the author. Now suppose someone comes along, yanks the book I just wrote out of my hands and says, "thanks for writing this book, we'll now be giving it to the world for free without your consent." I'd be pissed!
A friend of mine tried to argue that "music is art, and all art should be free." Absurd. The distribution method of art should be up to the artist to decide, period.
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What all these artists and music records also fail at mentioning is the fact that us, from the vinyl days, many of us have purchased new copies on DVD of music we already paid rights on before. No discount, nothing offered ever. I will never cry for the music industry as they get paid any time they get played on TV or radio or any public place. This is free advertisement in billions of $ value. In fact it's more like they get paid for advertising their product.
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