While TSA Looks At You Naked, Child Finds Loaded Gun Magazine Left On Southwest Plane

from the feel-safer? dept

Wed, Nov 24th 2010 6:23am — Mike Masnick

Another day, another series of bizarre TSA-related stories. While the TSA still won't provide any evidence that its efforts have actually made air travel any safer and continues to defend its security efforts as necessary, CNN is reporting that a child on a Southwest flight found a loaded gun magazine in a seatback pocket, which was kicked to the floor as the child climbed over the seats. Apparently, a law enforcement official (not an air marshal) who was allowed to take the clip on the plane, left it in the seat. Obviously, this is not a failure of the TSA, in that the mistake was by the law enforcement agent who left the clip, but the point is that it's impossible to protect against all threats on a plane, and many of the TSA's actions seem to be based on the fiction that it is possible. I have nothing against legitimate security that makes us safer, but there's little indication that that's what we're getting from the TSA.

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Filed Under: guns, planes, security, tsa

48 Comments

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weneedhelp (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 6:47am

LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
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J.D. (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 6:53am

What the...
I saw an article about some military guys that were allowed to carry their weapons on to the plane. But not their ammo. (http://www.redstate.com/erick/2010/11/18/another-tsa-outrage/) How did the law enforcement personal get to carry his ammo if the people who defend our country cannot? I'm at a loss.
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Matt, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:00am

Magazine. Not Clip.
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Michael (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:02am

While I understand there are tremendous problems with the TSA (well before the new scanners and pat downs) and that whether they should exist at all is a big question, how are they related to this incident? Seems like a very tangential opportunity to throw the TSA under the bus.

Clearly a law enforcement official broke protocol. End of story.

The TSA is giving everyone plenty opportunities to complain about their policies, procedures and enforcement. Not this time. Or are you implying the TSA should be tracking items not generally allow on board.
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Mitch, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:09am

Unless the LEO was carrying a M1 Garand...
I doubt it was a clip, a clip is used to load Magazines, such as the one built in the M1 Garand, not something used to load a handgun, so it was a loaded magazine.
http://everything2.com/title/Clip+vs.+magazine
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:10am

Re:
Find the word "obviously" and start reading from there.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:10am

Re:
Find the word "obviously" and start reading from there.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:13am

So a loaded magazine is a "threat"?
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Bengie, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:13am

Re: Unless the LEO was carrying a M1 Garand...
it must be a common mistake because I've heard the reference many times of "my clip is empty" which has been synonymous to "my magazine is dry". Both have been interchanged many times.
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weneedhelp (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:16am

Re:
"Clearly a law enforcement official broke protocol." K
So no check is done between flights? No cleaning? Nothing?

throw the TSA under the bus? They dove under head first when they thought it was OK to grab our balls/vagina.

"Or are you implying the TSA should be tracking items not generally allow on-board." Huh??? Uh yeah. They should. Isn't that why they are there in the first place? To make sure nothing gets on board that is not allowed. Especially if they know a passenger was allowed on-board with a loaded magazine/firearm. Sorry mike, but, WEAK.
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James Carmichael (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:20am

CHILDREN ARE A THREAT!
No children allowed on planes from now on, they are clearly a threat to our national security.

Also, no in-flight magazines anymore. You heard me.
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Doug B (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:25am

Re: CHILDREN ARE A THREAT!
Agreed. And the child's parents should be arrested for allowing the child to use the seats as his own personal jungle gym.
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Mike C. (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:25am

Re: LOL
I see you haven't found the Benny Hillifier yet. Try it on your favorite TSA related video for added fun:

http://bennyhillifier.com/?id=Eq4E9MkTUIU

Replace the code after "id=" with your favorite YouTube video id for fun times.
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:35am

Re: Unless the LEO was carrying a M1 Garand...
It could have been a revolver. They're a lot easier to load with a clip.
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Overcast (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:35am

LOL!!!

Good job TSA, good job!

Now what if one of the Air Marshalls is a double agent?
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DesignSmith, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:36am

best effort basis
Unfortunately no matter what the technology is, it still comes down to the concentrated effort of the person running the equipment.
This summer I went through Logan on the Boston/New York leg of an overseas trip. (same route as the original troublemakers...)
And the gal at the scanner never even saw my carry on going through. Why? She was busy making dreamy eyes at the guy checking IDs.
I went through the (PG 13) scanner and was cleanly through, but anything in my bag was not seen until well after I was on my way.
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Joshua, 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:42am

Re: Re: Unless the LEO was carrying a M1 Garand...
It is a common mistake. That's why there are whole web pages devoted to correcting it.
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bdhoro (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:51am

Read Books!
Please read Nassim Nicholas Taleb "The Black Swan". He gives the perfect explanation of why this is total illogical garbage.

Just as you say Mike, the TSA and government officials think they need to protect us against each individual threat after they happen - and thats called haphazard security. Protecting yourself against one potential threat is unimaginative, and criminals are not short on imagination.

The book was written shortly after 9/11 and he uses great examples of bad logic being used to increase plane security. The basic idea is this: You cannot predict the future by using past data because there is not enough data and the future is too chaotic.

People who are smart enough know that a single observation can overturn infinite past data. The book is called the Black Swan because of predictions made by scientists in the 17th century when they were trying to classify many species of animals. European scientists came into contact only with regular white swans, and thus made a rule for classifying swans that they must be white. All the data throughout Europe supported this claim as hundreds of scientists observing swans had not come across a swan of any other color. They ran into problems though once a single black swan from Australia was observed completely ruining their rules.

Sorry for such a long paragraph but here's where it ties back into the TSA.

The TSA is like the scientists classifying security threats. They make some kind of rule based on the past data such as "planes are safe if the cockpits are locked." That was the bill that ran through the senate after 9/11 because the hijackers got in the cockpit. Don't they see that by believing this is how most threats take place, they open themselves up for threats in many other areas.

Its kinda like the idea of buying insurance - often there's some sort of natural disaster, flooding for instance, that ruins a lot of people homes. People start spending lots of money specifically on flood insurance, instead of realizing that their regular home owners insurance probably covers floods, as well as many other potential threats.

People who are smart think about this all the time. They realize that our instincts want us to be very short sighted, we love anecdotes (the worst evidence possible that should never sway our beliefs in any way).
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Howard the Duck (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 7:53am

Why
If this has nothing to do with the TSA, why publish? I love the headline too... amazing what a little grandstanding will do huh Mike?

"Obviously, this is not a failure of the TSA, in that the mistake was by the law enforcement agent who left the clip, but the point is that it's impossible to protect against all threats on a plane"

Geez...
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jebrew (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:04am

Re: Magazine. Not Clip.
Glad you said it. It's the little things, but it really is a fairly big difference. Reminds me of when reporters call all assault rifles "AK-47's"...sigh...
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TehZomB (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:05am

Re: What the...
I saw that too.
I find it interesting that you can hijack a plane with nail clippers (what, 2 inches long) but not with an unloaded M1 (2-3 feet long, blunt force will do the trick).
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:06am

While no one should be leaving ammo around, bullets won't hurt anyone unless you have a gun or can throw them really really hard.
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Chucklebutte, 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:09am

Missing the point?
My teacher pointed out something in class that never occurred to me and my fellow classmates yesterday when the topic of TSA and body scans came up. What is stopping anyone from walking into an air port and blow it up? Why even bother dealing with security, walk right into a busy crowded air terminal on the holidays and BOOM! But same goes for anything really, bus train, hell you could get hit by a "drunk terrorist" in your own town. His point? That all this huff n snuff is pointless, shit happens. My teachers second rational thought, why not offer an airline at half price with no security checks? No nothing really just pay, get on plane fly to destination for half price. The whole class rose their hands in favor of this idea. As for myself, never flown and with all this hoopla most likely never will.
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Esahc (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:19am

Re: Re: LOL
Oh-my-god, that has to be one of the best sites ever.
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Phillip Vector (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:38am

Roommate works for SouthWest
She got a call last night about 4am from another flight attendant. I can now see why.
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Beta (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:43am

Re: Missing the point?
How about an airline with no security checks, and they charge whatever they can (just like ordinary airlines). People might be willing to pay more to avoid these indignities.
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Richard Kulawiec, 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:48am

Mike, you wrote:
Obviously, this is not a failure of the TSA [...]
I disagree. This is most definitely a failure of the TSA. Now...it may not be a failure of current TSA procedures, because none of those procedures are designed to catch this problem, but who designed and implemented those procedures?
Sooner or later, it will occur to attackers that one way to possess a firearm on a plane is to let someone else bring it on board -- and then take it away from them.
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DocMenach (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 8:58am

T-shirt idea
So, I keep thinking about these back scatter imaging machines. If you could print a t-shirt with some metallic ink, would it show up on the image? You could have some special message just for the person looking at the images.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:05am

Failure of Terry Wrist and Al Kyder
We should all follow Australia's lead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3grHjibNdA
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:11am

Re: T-shirt idea
LOL that's a great idea. For some reason, Tulip T-Shirt Paint comes to mind. I wonder if these paints absorb the waves.

Despair has a clever T-Shirt for everyone else to read.
http://www.despair.com/tsa.html
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RadialSkid (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:16am

Re: CHILDREN ARE A THREAT!
In-flight magazines? I see what you did there!
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JB, 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:38am

Re:
"Now what if one of the Air Marshalls is a double agent?" ~ Overcast

That was my thought exactly, well maybe not Air Marshals in particular. What if a crooked officer is allowed to take his weapon on the plane and stashes it somewhere known to a third party that boards the plane and accesses the weapon?

Oh, and why do we need armed Air Marshals when the TSA is stating that these new scanning techniques will keep our planes safe?
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Boost, 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:41am

Re: Re: What the...
Get your Military arms correct. The Military hasn't carried M1's in over 50 years...unless you're refering to a tank, which is a bit longer than 2-3 feet. Though, the blunt force would still do the trick.
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Richard Kulawiec, 24 Nov 2010 @ 9:47am

Re: Re:
Interesting thought, but why would you want to buy an air marshall? They're expensive. It would be much more cost-effective to buy a member of the cleaning crew, or the catering service, or the maintenance staff, or the flight crew.
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DogBreath, 24 Nov 2010 @ 10:09am

Re: T-shirt idea
Done:
Metallic Ink-Printed T-Shirt - 4th Amendment

Metallic Ink-Printed Underwear - 4th Amendment
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Paul Hobbs (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 10:20am

Re: Failure of Terry Wrist and Al Kyder
The Chasers RULE!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdnAaQ0n5-8
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J c Green, 24 Nov 2010 @ 10:34am

Re: What the...
"Posse Commitatus" insures that we will never need the Military for civil enforcement except under "Martial Law". The Soldiers by law cannot perform a policing effort in this Country and if the Sherrif/Law Enforcemnet are overwhealmed they can "deputize" individuals to help them under Posse Commitatus".
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J c Green, 24 Nov 2010 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: What the...
The M1 Has not been used as a weapon in the Military or issued to troops since the sixties. I have used some M1's in a purely military ceremonial function as late as the Seventies. I would hope that any troop of the AMERICAN stock would be able to roll up a magazine from the rack and jab the offender in the chin with an upward thrust. That is why our troops are the best. We don't need no steeening guns to take out the enemy.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 10:41am

Re:
Well, I might worry about the guy who misplaced the bullets...not having them handy when he really, really needs them can be rather hazardous to his health...

I will say though that I agree that bullets in the whatchamacallit, but without the gun isn't really a danger.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 11:07am

Re: Read Books!
What you're saying is a syndrome known to military historians that generals and their political masters prepare for the next war by assuming that it will be largely if not completely like the last one.

Case in point. French planners prepared for another war with Germany by assuming that it, too, would be static and came up with the Maginot Line which they proceeded to increase the fortifications and troop assignments as things heated up towards the German invasion of France. The Germans responded to that by simply going around it.

This has happened throughout history.

I should also note that after 9/11 Bin Laden's unhappy band of terrorists haven't seriously attempted another run at the United States. In part because they know that if they repeat that action they'll be caught before they can get so much as a box cutter out of their pocket and in part by a global outpouring of sympathy, empathy and support for the United States which translated into the Security Council at the UN blessing the mission in Afghanistan.

What has happened is that there have been a few attempts by incompetent loners none of which have been successful.

While it doesn't rule out another hijacking attempt I'd say that the odds of one happening soon are close to zero.

TSA is trying to prepare for the next attack by preparing for the last one in as intrusive and objectionable means possible.

Put another way this is the TSA's Maginot Line and should someone with some brains and planning skills want to run another terror attack on the United States like the Germans they'll simply go around it.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 24 Nov 2010 @ 11:10am

Re: T-shirt idea
Oh my goodness, backscatter tshirt porn???? :-)

I see that it's been done. Maybe not porn but that's coming very soon.
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Richard Kulawiec, 24 Nov 2010 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Read Books!
That...is an entirely accurate and succinct assessment of where we find ourselves.
If I might add to it (since I read books too -- rather a lot of them): it seems that AQ's preferred modus operandi is to plan carefully over a long period for something big. Oh, no doubt they could successfully execute smaller operations at will, and sometimes they do, but that's not their first choice.
Thus the absence of a significant large-scale attack since 9/11/2001 has nothing to do with any countermeasures taken by any government on this planet: it's simply a reflection of AQ's strategy. We can thus immediately discount any claim by any official that "...we have kept you safe" because of course doing precisely nothing would have kept us equally safe.
And at the moment, there's no particular reason for AQ to attack the US: we continue to foolishly expend lives and fortunes in failed military gambits whose most significant effect has been to create more terrorists, and at home we're busy ramping up still more security theater -- and destroying ourselves from within. I'm not sure it would make much sense for them to take the risk and spend the money; might be better to sit tight and see what things look like in a few years.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." --- Napoleon
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Ducks are dinner, 24 Nov 2010 @ 12:08pm

Re: Why
Nowhere does he say that the magazine was found because the TSA was negligent due to looking at you naked. It's a 'TSA-related' story, and you latched on the title because you wanted to find fault with the TSA. The title says that these two things occurred same time, not cause and effect.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 2:06pm

Moral of the story, don't rely on the government to keep you secure.
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Rabbit80, 24 Nov 2010 @ 4:22pm

Re: Re: Missing the point?
They would become a very small easy target for terrorists making it a much bigger risk. If all airlines removed the security checks, the difference in risk is negligible as the number of potential targets is so much larger.
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Anonymous Coward, 24 Nov 2010 @ 5:59pm

Re: Re:
defective primer in catridge detonates igniting gunpowder and propelling hot gases and detritis (including casing) into childs left eye after he banged the cartridge against the chair arm.

"A bullet [cartridge] without a gun isn't really a danger"

Tell that to every person injured by one - Epic [stupid] FAIL!
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Anonymous Coward, 25 Nov 2010 @ 5:45am

Re: Re: Re: What the...
All rise for the flag salute!!!!!
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nasch (profile), 26 Nov 2010 @ 7:29pm

Re: Re: Magazine. Not Clip.
It must really chap your hide when they call automatic rifles machines guns then.
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