Visa & MasterCard: KKK Is A-OK, But Wikileaks Is Wicked
from the starvation-through-political-pressure dept
Well, it looks like we can add Visa to the list of companies pressured into no longer working with Wikileaks, following a similar move by MasterCard. At least, unlike MasterCard, Visa isn't already claiming that Wikileaks was convicted of a crime. Instead, it's just said that it's suspended any work with Wikileaks "pending further investigation into the nature of its business and whether it contravenes Visa operating rules."As Charles Arthur points out, the Ku Klux Klan's website points you to a site that takes both MasterCard and Visa -- suggesting the pure arbitrariness of both credit card companies' decision here. It's a bad idea when firms start making decisions for political reasons. There are all sorts of companies out there that take credit cards to support objectionable (to many) activities. Is it really the credit card companies' job to pick and choose who they find objectionable to work with -- and if so, what basis does it use for saying "KKK is okay, but Wikileaks is not"?
This reinforces the point we recently made about the role of corporate intermediaries in being able to aid governments in censorship, even in the absence of a trial or conviction. Either way, this is a really sad statement about both Visa and MasterCard and their willingness to cave to government pressure.
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Filed Under: censorship, kkk, politics, pressure, wikileaks
Companies: kkk, mastercard, visa, wikileaks
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again, its their choice, within the law.
I do not agree with MC dealing with the KKK but it is their moral choice..
I also did not agree with George Bush Snr, dealing with the Bin Ladin family either.. did you ?
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
Truth about the Government has been declared "Hate Speech"
CBMHB
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
The notion that merely because something is accessible it should, ergo, be widely accessible, is not a priori a rational claim.
In short, Assange is an anti-rationalist and his worshipful sycophants are tools.
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Re: In short...
http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/2010/12/wikileaks_texas_company_helped.php
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
STOLEN, U.S.A. classified documents.
Whether or not you like America, our government, etc ....what he did was still a crime.
Just like the law states, if you receive stolen goods you are liable for them. He is posting illegally obtained material and posting them to cause "Harm".
While I don't like the KKK they have the right to free speech. We may not agree with their views but they aren't stealing classified documents, posting classified documents to the world and doing it with malicious intent.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
And we have every right to criticize them publicly for being hypocritical government stooges!
Glad you're on board.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
So. Do we really want two corporations deciding what's "right" and what's "wrong"?
If the president of Visa is a staunch Republican, should he be allowed to squelch any site that takes donations that benefit the Democratic party? Or vice-versa? Just because they don't want to do business with them?
Do we want Visa and MC to start dropping companies because they supply abortion equipment and the presidents of both of them are against such things? Or because they don't like against someone's religion? Race? Sexuality? Or again, politics?
We don't allow bankers and lenders and employers and schools to discriminate based on any of those criteria. Visa and MC privileges should be no different.
If the business or activity has been JUDGED illegal, then fine. Otherwise, hands off.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
One of the many things Darryl misses on a regular basis is that actual freedom should not be dependent on how a few money making enterprises feel at that particular moment.
...and yes, they have the right to do this, as Mike and the rest of us here have the right to criticise them for these actions. It's sad that the likes of Darryl feels that supporting racist organisations is just, but he has a history of blindly supporting corporate strategy at the cost of society, so that's not surprising.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
---
I wonder what you would think if store owners would also limit who their customers were.. for example one would say no blacks, other would say no gays, the one would say no religious people etc...
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
But again the big pictures here is that firms help governments to censorship people. This is sad and outraging!
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
Corporations don't make "moral" choices, that's the problem isn't it? It's all about maximizing profit, humans, human lives don't matter.
Visa and MC cut off WL because they were told and because they thought it would have been good for business.
The KKK is not illegal, but neither is Wikileaks.
It wasn't just Bush sr that dealt with the bin Ladens, it was junior too.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
We are all WikiLeaks, You and Your family too - this fight is for coming generations.
I bet You would do more than disagree it they came and towed Your car(or so?), - so think and act now.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
are we Wikilleaks from the stand point that our information has been stolen by some guy and he is posting all over. Hence we should form as one and kick his ass
or
Are we Wikileaks from the stand point of Screw national security, civilian safety, military safety, trade secrets and relationships with the war. Viva La Wikilieaks !!!
Please clarify....and dont tow my car..id be really pissed.
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Re: Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
I'm positive loads of the lame professionals who made the leaks now feel very much relieved that the whole issue is turning into a "matter of ideas". Black against White, or Red, or .
So while the entire planet discusses whether wikileakers are heroes or villains, those lame security experts, fake generals and inefficient politicians all keep their wonderful sky-high salaries.
Am I REALLY the only one noticing it in the whole bloody planet? Next time I make a mistake on my job I'll blame it on a foreign conspiracy, you bet I will.
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Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
The question is whether or not companies should obey political pressure just because it suits their interest.
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Dumb
My debit card has a mastercard logo on it ... does anybody know if they make money when I use it at a store?
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Re: Dumb
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Re: Re: Dumb
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Re: Dumb
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Re: Re: Dumb
...If I use it as a credit card, the merchant pays the fee. If I use it as a debit card, I pay the fee...
That is completely incorrect. The merchant pays a fee either way. The fees for Credit card purchases are usually a small flat fee plus a percentage of the charge, for Debit card purchases the flat fee is higher, but the percentage charge is lower. This means that, for most merchants, it is more beneficial to use Debit for large purchases and credit for small ones. The merchant pays a fee either way though.
On a side note: Your bank charges you additional fees for Debit purchases? Sounds like you need a new bank.
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Re: Dumb
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Re: Dumb
They get a MUCH higher percentage for credit than debit, I believe I've heard up to 15% of the transaction depending on what merchandise is being purchased or where (gas stations vs. groceries, for example).
I do NOT know how this filters back to Visa/MC, though I suspect they get a cut of the bank's cut. Whether that is only for credit transactions or includes debit as well I have absolutely no idea.
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Remarks on Internet Freedom
“Remarks on Internet Freedom” by Hillary Rodham Clinton, United States Secretary of State, at The Newseum in Washington, DC, on January 21, 2010:
(Emphasis added)
“In America, American companies need to make a principled stand” —Hillary Clinton, Remarks on Internet Freedom.
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Re: Remarks on Internet Freedom
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Re: Remarks on Internet Freedom
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Re: Remarks on Internet Freedom
Let's be blunt about it, politicians stink all over the planet. If they weren't natural born liars they'd all have chosen another business.
And now it seems that politicians run banks and CC services, too... makes a perfect global Communist state, I'm sure Northern Koreans will be pleasantly impressed.
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Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
That makes them nasty censorers, but they have the right to do so. It is neither legitimate nor morally acceptable, but that doesn't make any of it illegal and there's nothing we can do against that, except vote with our wallet.
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Re: Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
Ah, if it were only that simple. Anyone who has a Visa or Mastercard should know that they have us by the short hairs. Kinda hard to tell them to go screw themselves.
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Re: Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
By this logic, we wouldn't ever evolve from "lesser" forms of government into a Democracy, nor would we have things like freedom of speech or concepts like fair trials and such.
It is our job as citizens of this planet to point out these abuses and pressure people, companies and governments to do the "right thing", even though it might not be their job to do so or the law protects their actions. Even if our pressure is just in the form of angry internet posts :)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
Democracy is just the biggest, meanest gang on the planet. At the moment we're ruled by the capitalist mafia minority. It's time to take back our birthright as human beings from these sociopaths.
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Re: Re: Re: again, its their choice, within the law.
No, there's one other thing: cover and discuss this news in public forums. Level criticisms. Analyze the situation.
A company's decision doesn't have to be illegal to be newsworthy, or for the public to have the right to criticize it.
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@Darryl
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Missing the point
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Other motives
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Re: Other motives
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Re: Cash vs. Credit
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Re: Re: Cash vs. Credit
Keeping cash in the register is not a cost of the transaction. It is a convenience so you can make change.
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Re: Re: Cash vs. Credit
Keeping cash in the register is not a cost of the transaction. It is a convenience so you can make change.
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Re: Re: Re: Cash vs. Credit
What about taxes? There is a cost of doing business built in no matter what you do, and there is currently no way around someone who is at the very least displeased with wikileaks taking a piece of your payment for goods and services.
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Hmmm.
Maybe that's the problem- Julian should have bought a hooker with Visa. It's everywhere you want to be®.
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Discerning Credit
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Oh, wait...
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Bet Online with Visa And Mastercard against Julian Assange!
Who knows, he may even get **waterboarded** because apparently that's still legal!
If you wanted to donate to WikiLeaks, but can't, this is the perfect opportunity to use your Visa/MC to place bets at http://www.YouWager.com
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here, i can have visa or mastercard or American Express or some random bank specific ones no one outside the country has ever heard of. for credit cards.
last i checked, only visa (and Possibly mastercard) offered debit cards.
if you live somewhere out in the arse end of nowhere, globally speaking, you end up buying online. if you are like me and realise that credit cards are a Stupid idea on so many levels it's not funny (the american system is set up so you can't really avoid them, unfortunately, but NZ is a lot more focused on Debit cards, and tradesmen and such will still tend to take cash or cheques instead), then these debit cards that run through the credit system and thus can be used online are pretty important.
I'd drop my visa debit card in response to this in a heart beat... were it not for the fact that my only alternative for most of my purchases is using my mother's visa Credit card. (yes, i am aware of paypal. no, an entity who's contract is specifically worded to allow them to take your money and run without providing ANY service or good for it is NOT an acceptable option... especially when it's just as bad)
but yeah, if they worked online i'd drop the visa debit card with it's NZ$10 a year fee (seriously, from the customer's point of view, that is the only difference between it and a regular bank card... and the price of goods is identical whether you use card or cash) and just get a bank debit card (and we once again have a bank integrated with the post office (or at least sharing premises with it), owned by the government and run as a state owned enterprise... after having just that arrangement years ago and selling it off in favour of foreign owned banks, which were then found utterly unsatisfactory. that's the bank i use.)
so, currently my choice is to give visa my 10 bucks a year... or be basically unable to buy any of the books i'm interested in without paying seriously inflated prices for quite limited selection. admittedly this Is a luxury, but a fairly imporant one in my situation.
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"Visa and MasterCard and their willingness to cave to government pressure.
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So, no more Visa and Mastercard
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Hypocrisy, Priceless
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it's true...
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Kudos to Visa & MC
Still amazing to me how many people are willing to disregard all sanity and support that Assange and his terrorist organization.
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Re: Kudos to Visa & MC
Just like the New York Times, the Guardian, and many others.
In what possible way is WikiLeaks a criminal organization? They're not the ones that leak classified data, the people in the US government and military did that. WikiLeaks just publishes them, as is their civic duty. They have not been convicted for anything, and I doubt they ever will.
If Visa and MasterCard had canceled WikiLeaks' account because they got a court order, they wouldn't have had any other choice than to do what they did. But now they're giving the message that press freedom is worse than racism. Not an attitude that belongs in a free nation. I hope they get kicked out of the EU for it.
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Hypocritical
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Re: Hypocritical
WTF?
Who ARE you idiots?
Are ALL of us entitled to ALL information in government custody? Why don't you have the balls to actually make such a ludicrous claim, so you can be laughed off the planet? Because it's simpler for your were mind to just fail to examine the preposterousness of the assumption that Assange and crew are qualified to make determinations of what should and should not be divulged.
Hypocrisy? Heh. How open is Assange's process to scrutiny?
Does the public have a right to the internal memos between WikiLeaks insiders?
Heh.
One thing about this whole affair, it's brought the morons to the foreground and they're really showing their lack of brains for all to see.
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Oh really?
Did you feel that way about the pressure brought to bear on apartheid governments or when Jesse Jackson/Al Sharpton protest and demand X be fired?
Somehow, I doubt it. Of course corporations, like people, live in the political world.
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I know it's a terrible cliche, but the terrorists ARE winning.
This is just one more area where we can see it happening. Government puts pressure on businesses to stop dealing with an organization of which the government doesn't approve - even though they haven't broken any laws - business complies, Americans twiddle thumbs and shrug their shoulders because it's nothing to do with them... or so they think...
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Re:
Their divulgence depended on the violation of U.S. law by an American citizen sworn to uphold such law. In other words, Assange is a coward who hides behind jurisdiction issues while denying his sources the innocence he claims for himself. His sources are guilty and culpable while he trots around with impunity, pretending he and his sycophants possess the expertise to redact material with sufficient knowledge to "do no harm?"
The latest round of hackery and DOS attacks on sites perceived by his sycophants as contrary to WikiLeaks merely proves the utter lack of bona fides by these tools who have the chutzpah to claim the high moral ground.
This is ludicrous, but all these fools thereby prove how dangerous they are to civilization itself. They'd light the house afire putatively to kill the cockroaches. Then they smugly assume anyone trying to put out the house fire must be defending the cockroaches.
Irrational morons, with tool Assange as their lead idiot.
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Re:
Until I hear otherwise, you're full of shit.
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Goes to show you......
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donation
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kkk isnt doing anything illegal
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Tech nerds
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Give Your Attacker Ammunition?
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Do me a favor:
1. Look at the name of your p.c. or laptop. Who made it?
2. Go ahead and open up your P.C. or laptop. Who made the components?
3. Please look at a main majority of the software on your shelves. Who created those?
4. The internet you are using to spam stupid nonsense. Who created that for the world to use?
I can go on and on. Bottom line is Big corporations are here to stay.. it's because of big companies that you can buy items for cheap.
Next your probably going to bitch that some of your computer parts were made in China, Korea etc...
Go live there if you don't like it here.
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Visa and MC don't deal with KKK
See their join page: http://www.christianconcepts.net/joinwithcard.htm
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I agree with everything but the closing paragraph.
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It's not...
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All goverments
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KKK & MasterCard & VISa
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KKK & MasterCard & VISa
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Re: KKK & MasterCard & VISa
Yes, you can donate to the KKK via Visa, MC, and AmEx.
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Duopoly
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