If You Don't Offer Legit Versions, Is It That Big A Surprise That People Want Unauthorized Copies?
from the if-that's-all-they-can-get... dept
Sage Freehaven points us to an amusing, but telling, customer service chat between a guy in the UK who wanted to buy the latest version of RosettaStone's Vietnamese language program, and a RosettaStone customer service rep. The guy's main concern is that it appears an older version is available in the UK, but he wants the newer version, which the company refuses to ship to the UK, even though it's been out elsewhere for a long time. He then asks if the company will give a free upgrade when it finally launches the newer version in the UK, and the customer service rep has no idea. The response, not surprisingly, is that it's just easier to get an unauthorized copy:Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Filed Under: authorized copies, unauthorized copies
Companies: rosetta stone
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So, how does one say clusterfuck in Vietnamese?
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Re:
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action is cheaper than control
you see this with game consoles: the ps3 eye camera has no official PC support, but it's not hard to get it working in both windows and linux, same with the xbox kinnect camera. and don't get me started on the alternate OS support for the PS3.
incidents like these should be a warning to companies: make your products open and easily accessible or they will be made open and accessible in a manner that you do not agree with.
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The really dumb thing
When even that becomes a reason FOR, not against, pirating...well then you're really doing something wrong.
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The Individual Consumer is Irrelevant
Unfortunately, the reality is quite different. The consumer's ability to "force" market reform at the individual level is virtually non-existent. Fortunately, websites such as TechDirt can expose these outrages to the world and prod reform.
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Re: The Individual Consumer is Irrelevant
Also, I hate the over-use of the term 'consumer.' A customer buys a product and service. When I'm called a consumer, I realize I'm not the customer, I'm usually the product being sold to some third party.
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Translation
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Re: Translation
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Consumer is the king
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Re: Consumer is the king
If, say, they licensed a chunk of code from another software producer to include in their new product, but, for whatever reason, they don't have the rights to distribute that code in the UK, that would prevent them from satisfying that particular customer.
I don't mean to say that it might not very well be some sort of dumb "windowing" staggered release schedule that is purely a contrivance on the part of the Rosetta Stone people. I just think it's not clear at all that all they are is stupid. I'm sure they'd love to make some money in the UK.
I also object to the implication that one is somehow justified in stealing merely because you can't get the product you want (not NEED, but WANT - this is not like stealing food to feed your starving children) through legitimate channels. Good on Adrian for trying to buy it legitimately, but his failure to succeed on that score is not a license to turn to pirated copies.
HM
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
Oh, and I don't pirate myself and wouldn't have in this situation either. So I am not saying he should do it, but it is not nearly the crime people like yourself make it out to be.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
(I'm kidding, that's not a valid argument in this circumstance)
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
This is possible, but even if it is the case, they have done two things wrong. First, rather than just dismissing your potential customers and telling them there is no remedy - explain the reason you cannot satisfy their needs. It's like getting to a cashier who is just standing there at the counter not waiting on you - if she told you she was waiting for a manager and would be right with you, you may be ok with waiting - instead she just stands there silent while you wait. Second, making some kind of licensing deal that screws some of your customers is a pretty dumb thing to do.
"one is somehow justified in stealing merely because you can't get the product you want"
The article in NO WAY suggested it was ok for him to pirate the software. All it indicated is that is what the (former) customer intended to do. Don't shoot the messenger. Read the post.
This is another case in which nobody is discussing the right and wrong of the customer. All that is being discussed is what is actually happening. Saying it is wrong is clearly not going to stop it. In this case, meeting the customer's needs absolutely would have - and he even gave them the option to meet his needs with an upgrade when they did work out their crazy restriction.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
Also, if there's a legitimate reason to not sell in the UK, why even prohibit customers from buying a copy in another region and importing it? Did they sign a deal so draconian that they can get in trouble for the actions of individual consumers?
And I don't see this so much as justifying pirating. It's not saying "If a company is stupid, you can go pirate from them, guilt free". It's more the point of "If a company is stupid, this WILL happen. They should anticipate it and stop being stupid"
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Re: Re: Re: Consumer is the king
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Consumer is the king
We must be psychotic.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
Must not if they would use code in their program that doesn't allow them to release it in the UK.
Also, how would you know if it wasn't needed? I know people get those two words mixed up often. But that doesn't mean that they mess it up all the time.
Also it's not "stolen", stealing implies taking an object. Best way to keep this straight in your head (anyone's, not just you in particular): Strategic Transfer of Equipment to an Alternate Location.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
Good on RS for trying to sell it to him legitimately, but their failure to succeed on that score is not a license to complain when consumers go elsewhere.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
To put on my "old man" hat for a second, it used to be that "Adrian Verne" in the UK would never have known that version 4 was out unless he had friends in the USA who used the app. He would have seen that the most recent version in stores was v3 and bought that. Unfortunately, in the current age of instant communication, everyone around the world has the ability to find out that version 4 has shipped.
Can you honestly say that you'd be happy to hear that while there's a newer version of a product out, the company won't sell it to you because you happened to be born in the "wrong" country? Even worse, when you contact the company to find out if there's an option for you to eventually get that latest version, you're stonewalled? Finally, given major corporations fanatic obsession with alerting the public about piracy in their attempts to stamp it out, is it any wonder that more and more people see it as an option, even if it's contrary to written law?
More and more, because of corporate overreach, I'm seeing people react to copyright and patents the same way they react to speed limits. They're seeing it as a guideline of where the boundries are supposed to be, but also realize that it's also yet another way for someone else to separate you from your money. Some people still follow the limit. Others go over, but only by a few miles an hour. A few reckless folks ignore the limits completely and run the risk of getting caught.
Something has to change because the system, as it stands, is horribly broken. Unfortunately, the corporations have all the power right now, so I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
if, say, you actually posted something with a basis in fact rather than just a bunch of wild guesses we would have a better way to measure it.
i do mean to say that it is due to a dumb windowing of staggered releases that serve no point regardless of whatever implied (and unproven) reasons you would like to point out.
i also object to your condemnation of a company that refuses to sell the same goods in all markets. especially when, even if there IS a reason they are doing it, its not a valid reason and can be easily addressed especially given the fact that the differences in products have been apparent for an extended period of time in a world where i can just as easily go to their australian site as i can their US site to see what different products are being offered where.
addendum:
feel free to sue me for copyright infringement after having copied and altered the major tenor of your post to suit my rebuttal needs.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
object away. it's not going to change anything.
the fact of the matter is that piracy makes paying for a digital product optional. companies need to offer a reason for people to choose the pay option.
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Re: Re: Consumer is the king
Which is exactly what's being criticised, to be honest. If they have a valid reason to withhold the software from the UK (such as licensing or patents), that exposes a ridiculous flaw in the business model which should be an anachronism in the modern world - something that reflects badly on the industry as a whole.
If they don't have such a valid external reason (such as overstock old product), they're running their individual business badly to the detriment of their customers. The terrible customer service only exacerbates this.
"justified in stealing"
Sigh... Again, I ask, what is "stolen" here? IP infringement is not theft, because the "victim" loses nothing of tangible value. A storekeeper loses out on the cost of the bread's production plus his own overheads and restocking if you steal it. A "victim" of IP infringement loses nothing except a potential sale - and even that is not guaranteed (Adrian could pay for the software anyway once finally released to obtain a physical box, manuals, etc. that don't come with the "pirated" version).
Rosetta Stone still have their product to sell to anybody they wish. If Adrian did "pirate" the software, there's nothing to say that he won't buy later if given the opportunity. No sale is lost in the immediate future, because no sale is offered.
Nothing is lost by Adrian's actions here. Somebody explain to me what is lost, because I certainly don't see it.
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Re: Consumer is the king
Piracy just cuts that out when they can't provide though. Kinda funny that they go after Google for ad plots but aren't providing their customers with a legal alternative.
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People will pay for content...
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Not for Export...
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Re: Not for Export...
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Re: Re: Not for Export...
(amusingly, the official stance on exporting computer hardware here is: so long as you don't go through official channels to find out if it's legal or not, and aren't violating any Other law, they treat it as legal. if you ask, they have to say no, then it's not... )
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Re: Re: Not for Export...
It doesn't have to necessarily be a munitions/crypto thing.
HM
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Music Parallels
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Re: Music Parallels
I am sure they don't think it is a good idea, but that perhaps because of the way these things are released, it isn't so easy to do. Selling outside of the market (Germany in this case) may violate the distribution agreement. It may violate the exclusive contracts granted from Warner music to it's affiliated companies in each market place. Perhaps Warner US doesn't want to have to pay a large up front licensing fee for the content so that one or two people in the US could buy it. It may just not be financially viable to do it.
Perhaps the band isn't signed outside of Germany, and have chosen to keep those rights themselves. Perhaps they have no music publishing agreements outside of Germany.
There are plenty of possible reasons. You don't even have to work hard to imagine them.
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Re: Re: Music Parallels
Everything you just listed is a business problem. The customer doesn't care about them. All that you have done but having these limitations in place is cause your customer to find another method of obtaining your product, "piracy" is just another method of distribution.
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Re: Re: Music Parallels
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Re: Re: Music Parallels
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Re: Music Parallels
"We notice you're trying to access Hulu from Boxee. It's not available, but we're working hard to bring our Hulu plus subscription service to Boxee! Stay tuned for updates."
Really? I was just watching free content from Hulu on Boxee just a few days before this message came up. It's not available? As if the technology doesn't exist. Fine, I'll just go get my favorite shows from a torrent site that doesn't even have advertisements. That's what I have to do to watch the UK Top Gear in the US too. Torrents and Boxee are great!
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Upgrades
And, after that chat, the rep probably just closed out of it and laughed about it with his co-workers instead of showing that to a supervisor/mgr that could escalate the concerns of a customer that wanted to actually buy it.
Bad customer service + lack of availability = reasons to pira... errr, find unauthorized copies.
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I can see why the UK version might be delayed...
Lots of us Brits get really annoyed with American language products flooding our marketplace. For a language based product I can see why they might want to translate and re-record all of the "American English" into real English! This could amount to a fair amount of work for a comprehensive product.
There is nothing stopping them selling the "American" version here if they label it as such though...
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One word: eBay
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Re:
Newegg keeps their Canadian and US business separate for reasons. I think it's silly to say they have bad customer service because they couldn't cater to your very specific circumstances. Furthermore, if Newegg.ca shipping it directly to the US, your friend still would have had to pay more for shipping anyway since it would be international.
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Re: Re:
I can understand them not wanting to ship outside the country, but why couldn't the US branch accent payment from another country and then ship to a US address? That's the part that gets me. Do banks impose some extra fee for processing credit card orders from outside the country?
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V4 Rosetta Stone
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Rosetta Stone Banner Ad...
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Re: Rosetta Stone Banner Ad...
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lawls
"#@$* it, ill just pirate it"
Does anyone else feel this way about 99% of content out there?
I still have not been able to view an authorized copy of the winter x games finals. Not on the website, not on hulu, nowhere. Guess what content makers? I would love to sit through ads and in return get to see your content. Thats how you make money right? But when you do not give me that opportunity, I will find a way to consume my content, usually without ads.
Do you all like taking your revenue streams out back and shooting them in the head? Dont even get me started on the restrictive cost of Rosetta, that alone is enough to drive a man to piracy.
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Sounds like the kindle thing....
There are a bunch of us at work here in New Zealand who want to buy the new Kindle 3. Yet the Austrlia/New Zealand Ebook shop for kindle is very limited. The prices are more than the cost of a hardback book.
An example - My favourite author has 3 books on the Aus/NZ kindle book shop and SEVEN PAGES for the US shop. It is cheaper for me to buy the hardback from Amazon US than it is to buy the NZ ebook version.
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ROFLOL, there go's some coffee and now i need a new shirt for work, id REALLY love to know what the response from the support tech was over that?
Also is anyone else tempted to goto the customer support of that page and write the same thing in again?
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You can't have it both ways.
The site was ThePirateBay.org. The rest, as the cliché goes, is history. I never looked back.
When I found out you bought politicians and changed the law to extend copyright beyond an already unreasonable amount of years, I quickly realised who was the real thief.
And then there's the DMCA, the UK digital economy act, Hadopi, Minde...
You can't have it both ways. In other words, fuck you.
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eBooks are the same
There are 2 series I want to get in particular, both are 25+ books long and I cannot purchase them, my options become rather limited rather quickly (and this is a new thing, I have actually got one book that is now limited to US/Canada only, but wasn't when I bought it)
It makes me wonder sometime if they really do want our money or not!
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