Belgian Collection Society SABAM Caught Taking Cash For Made Up Bands It Didn't Represent

from the stay-classy dept

Thu, Feb 10th 2011 8:34am — Mike Masnick

We've seen all sorts of ridiculous actions from various music collection societies over the past few years -- from PRS trying to charge a woman who played the radio for her horses to ASCAP claiming that a legally licensed ringtone also should require another license for being a "public performance." Apparently a satirical TV show in Belgium decided to see how far they could push the Belgian collection society, SABAM. While SABAM chose not to charge them for a ringtone "performance," it did send them invoices when they said they were going to have totally made up bands performing made up songs. Neither the bands nor the songs were actually covered by SABAM since they didn't actually exist. Yet, the invoices still came:

Making a telephone call to SABAM from a public toilet, a Basta team member looked at the manufacturer of a hand dryer and explained that Kimberly Clark would be performing at an upcoming event. That would cost 134 euros minimum said SABAM.

Next the playlist. What if Kimberly Clark sang songs not covered by SABAM? Titles such as 'Hot Breeze', 'Show Me Your Hands', 'I Wanna Blow You Dry', 'I'm Not a Singer I Am a Machine' and the ever-timeless, 'We Fooled You', for example.

Five days later the answer came from SABAM. All of the songs were "100% protected" and so Basta must pay 127.07 euros.

Concerned that this might be a one-off mistake, the Basta team tried again, this time taking brand names of products from the supermarket including Suzi Wan, the name of a Chinese food wok kit, Mister Cocktail and the Party Mix, which is a hybrid of a drink and some party food, and Ken Wood, the food mixer.

They got bills from SABAM for these 'artists' totalling more than 540 euros.

The group who did all this, Basta, then wondered who was getting all of this money, so it took the food they used in that second experiment and brought them to SABAM offices to sign up to collect their money. No such luck. Though, once exposed, SABAM found it in their hearts to return the money.

There are some other amusing parts to the show, including a fun bit that mocks SABAM's inability to understand zero. Apparently, the fees for parties are based on venue size, and the smallest size range is for places that range from 1 - 100 square meters. So, Basta set up a party in 0.99 square meters, and told SABAM about it. Rather than recogizing the put on, SABAM insisted that the "1" really meant "0" and handed them an invoice for 82 euros.

Nice to see collection societies around the globe living down to their reputations.

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Filed Under: belgium, collections
Companies: sabam

65 Comments

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Brian Schroth (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 8:48am

Well, this is much worse than that time they were caught taking cash for made up bands that it did represent.
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Michael, 10 Feb 2011 @ 8:53am

.99 meters
That's a pretty small venue - that's taking connecting with the fans a bit TOO seriously.
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Rabbit80, 10 Feb 2011 @ 8:56am

Re: .99 meters
They had a number of balconies and did it vertically!
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:01am

Someone should do it to ASCAP since I'm pretty sure they don't check anything too.

Most impressive is how collection agencies hate computers, because if they used them they actually would have to pay something to someone.
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Ben Robinson, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:07am

At least PRS/MCPS aren't as bad as that.
When I helped a band get a CD duplicated a few years ago and we applied to the PRS/MCPS for a licence (yes they had to apply to licence their own work before the CD duplication plant would produce their CDs) at least they did reply with a "we do not represent this music" type letter.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:08am

The episode in which they expose the callgames is much better.
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fogbugzd (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:15am

This again raises the question: "Who are the pirates?"
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John Doe, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:22am

This is hilarious...
This is hilarious, but at the same time it isn't. Shouldn't the collection society be charged with fraud?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:23am

Hot Breeze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2uH0lBJrcg

Show Me Your Hands:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrKJ77E-4cc

I Want To Blow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyaOy2GTt0Y

I Am Machine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6Aeq_r0AUs

I Fooled Your This Time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQK-OM9TfEQ

I can find reasonably close songs on this, which may explain some of the errors.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:29am

Not to mention of course the singer Kim Clark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yjTxjVPHU

Or Kim Clark-Champniss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jL30Z1R09Y

Nope, no chance for any confusion at all.
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Spaceman Spiff (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:43am

Only one question
Why aren't these bozos (the executive staff of SABAM specifically) in jail for fraud?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 9:59am

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Feb 10th, 2011 @ 9:23am
Please, you are clutching at straws here; Do you work for SABAM by any chance?
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Johnny, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:06am

Re:
Close is not good enough. The songs you mention are not by Kimberly Clarke and most titles are different. Any check in a decent computer system would show them not to be registered with SABAM.

It's a collection agency's duty to distribute earnings amongst the rightful artists, who were they going to distribute this to if it didn't match any of their records???
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Re:
No wait, what, you are saying that artists never cover songs by other artists?

Oh my god, someone shoot the cover bands.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:11am

Re:
Which is why they did the food names afterwards. Did you finish the article?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:12am

Re: Re:
They are going to invest in brainwashing for school kids.
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Greg G (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:14am

Hmmm@'I Wanna Blow You Dry'

Now there's a video that needs to be made.
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harbingerofdoom (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:15am

Re: Only one question
because, they are the guardians of our musical heritage and culture. imprison them and anarchy and chaos are sure to happen followed quickly by the earth imploding upon itself.
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Johnny, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:23am

Re: Re: Re:
So how do they know which artist was covered and who to pay out to?

I am assuming that info would be required to be filled in on the form if it were a cover. It clearly wasn't in this case.

You can twist it every way you want into what-if scenarios, but it's clear that SABAM was only interested in invoices and didn't give a sh*t about knowing who had to be paid out.
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Johnny, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:27am

SABAM steals
Another interesting moment is when the SABAM tears down the poster of the first party and takes it with him.

That's theft (in the real meaning of the word).
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:31am

Re:
The sole function of a collection society like this is to represent artists and collect dues for the artists they represent. Pretty much the ONLY thing they have to do is know which artists are on their roster - and they failed at that. Confusion, even if it was legitimate, is no excuse. And frankly I doubt it was legitimate: lots of artists and songs have similar names, and if their approach (which took 5 days I might remind you) was to say "oh yeah that sounds kind of familiar, I remember a song with something about drying or whatever" and then send off a bill - well, they clearly aren't doing a very good job (or even trying to)
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:33am

Re: Re: Re:
Seriously? Come on

The long and the short of it here is that this collection society exists to manage the rights to music, and they completely failed at that. A few similarities between song names does not change the fact that they are apparently unable or unwilling to accurately keep track of their own business.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:39am

Re: Only one question
Why aren't these bozos (the executive staff of SABAM specifically) in jail for fraud?

Don't be silly.

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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 10:47am

Re: Re:
You are so cute when you try to be mini-Mike. You even manage to make great leaps of logic in a single bound!

which took 5 days I might remind you

Are you suggesting that from the moment of the phone call, at least one person worked non-stop for 5 days to process this application, spending 40+ hours to review it?

Come on!

Don't you think it is more likely that it went onto a form, someone did some computer matches 4 days later, gave it to a biller, who generated an invoice on the 5th day?

On one side you make them sound careless and working from memory, and on the other side you suggest they took 5 days so they researched it carefully.

Which one is it?
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Re:
You are so cute when you try to be mini-Mike. You even manage to make great leaps of logic in a single bound!

Really? Really? This is such a clear case of negligence on their part, but oh no no no, I'm "mini-Mike" for thinking a collection society should be able to keep accurate records.

Look, I'm not saying this was some malicious act, but no matter how you slice it, they were negligent. Why are you excusing them fucking up their own record keeping? Even if you support rights agencies like this, you should want them to be able to do their job properly. In this case, they clearly screwed up.

Maybe it was systemic, maybe it was accidental, maybe it was a fluke. Nonetheless, they failed to accurately check a short list of songs against their artist roster. Why are you so desperate to excuse that? Good companies, good managers and good employers don't make excuses for failures - they accept responsibility and try to fix the problem.

If the people who support rights agencies are also satisfied with them doing an inaccurate job, well, that's just one more reason I don't support them in the first place.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 11:09am

Re: Re: Re:
(p.s, the attempts to brand anyone who agrees with Techdirt's stance as some sort of cultist or sycophant is getting old. It's a pretty pathetic way to try to win an argument.)
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 11:11am

Does anyone else find it *really* funny that TAM (at least i'm pretty sure it's him) is actually trying to defend SABAM here? Because... wow.... desperation ftw!
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 11:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
To be fair, it is all they have left.
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The eejit (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:07pm

Re:
That wasn't the point. The point is that the Collection Society was collecting money for a person that did not exist. Where I come from, that's obtaining monies by deception, and is illegal throughout the EU.
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:42pm

Re:
There are many songs with duplicate titles - if SABAM knew what they were doing they would have come back with a question about who the composer was when the title quoted matched (or nearly matched) one in the database that they don't actually seem to have. The fact that they didn't tells yoiu that they just don't check these things at all.
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:45pm

Re:
If there is uncertainty then you don't just say "yes yes and take the money" you cross check. They didn't.
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:49pm

Re:
The "you" in question is of course a large hairy dog...
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:52pm

Re:
I can find reasonably close songs on this, which may explain some of the errors.

If you can find some reasonably close songs just using the public internet in a few minutes how come a professional collection society can't do it on its own private database in a few seconds!

I think you just made the point rather well!
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 12:58pm

Re: Re:
... obtaining monies by deception, and is illegal throughout the EU.

No, it is not illegal.

You know that your made-up pretend �law� will not be enforced in this case. Therefore, it just isn't �illegal� to do that. Bitch and moan �all you want� about what you fantasize the law should be. But the actual law is what it is.
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nasch (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:07pm

Re: Re: Re:
Charging someone money under false claims is not illegal in the EU?
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:08pm

Re: Re: Re:
I'm not that familiar with EU law, but are you saying there is absolutely no way this could qualify as fraud of some sort?

Please elaborate, because it certainly seems possible (even if unlikely). I'm assuming based on your tone that you can actually cite some relevant legislation here...
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nasch (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:08pm

Re:
More pathetic than funny, really. :-(
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Chronno S. Trigger (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:21pm

Re:
So you found two artists with the same name. If SABAM can't tell the fake artist with fake songs apart from real artists with different songs and real songs with different artists, how the hell are they going to keep Kim Clark and Kim Clark-Champniss separated? How many times has Kim Clark been payed when Kim Clark-Champniss should have been?

Why do people trust these groups any more?
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
... cite some relevant legislation here...

The first law of political power.

�

�

(Prove me wrong. Find an interested prosecutor. Except that you won't. And not only do I know that you won't, but you know it too.)
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:25pm

Re: Re: Re:
No, it is not illegal.

You know that your made-up pretend �law� will not be enforced in this case. Therefore, it just isn't �illegal� to do that. Bitch and moan �all you want� about what you fantasize the law should be. But the actual law is what it is.

Well it definitely used to be illegal in the UK
Visit this page for details. That particular wording has now been replaced by the fraud act 2006. But the substance of the law is unchanged. The behaviour of SABAM would still be illegal in the UK under the fraud act. It would constitute fraud by failing to disclose information. I would be extremely surprised if the law elsewhere in the EU is different.
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Richard (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
If this was the UK it seems to fit this provision very well

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/4

I can't believe Belgian law is that different.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:45pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I can't believe Belgian law is that different.

Belgium... the UK... the whole EU. And, beyond that, all North America. Japan. Korea. Both Koreas. China. The New Russia and the old Soviet Union... It doesn't matter what some moldy text says. It matters how the law is applied: And who gets it applied unto them.

That's the law.
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btr1701 (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 1:54pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> > ... cite some relevant legislation here...

> The first law of political power.

So basically you're asserting that the system is corrupt and those with money and power are above the law.

Glad you've finally come over to our side! Welcome!
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 2:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Glad you've finally come over to our side!

Why on earth would you ever imagine that I'm on �your side�? You're not on my side.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 2:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, the question here is not whether they are likely to be prosecuted, but whether this counts as fraud.

I agree there is basically no chance of this being prosecuted, but lets look at your original (highly childish and bitchy) quote:

You know that your made-up pretend �law� will not be enforced in this case. Therefore, it just isn't �illegal� to do that.

You are asserting that this doesn't run afoul of any laws. Well, it sounds to me like it might, so show me the legislation if you are insisting so vehemently that fraud is a "made-up pretend law"
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Marcus Carab (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 2:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So basically you realized that you are wrong and have nothing to back up your assertions about the law, so you have changed your stance and now say that all written law is meaningless. Nice save!

And um, if you have ever EVER read a court ruling or a legal opinion or, well, anything, you would know that the 'moldy text' is indeed very important. It can be manipulated, and it's not black and white, but it's far from meaningless.
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btr1701 (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 3:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> Why on earth would you ever imagine that I'm
> on �your side�?

Because your comment supports "our" side's position.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 6:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I could say the sky is blue, if Mike said green, you would say green. It's not hard to follow.

Can you please point to any of your comments where you don't agree with Mike?

Help me out here.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 6:28pm

Re: Re: Re:
Despite what you might think, this sort of thing is completely unacceptable. You do not bill someone for something that might possibly be close. If you cannot prove the charges are valid, then you should be brought up on charges of fraud. Willful, at that.
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Anonymous Coward, 10 Feb 2011 @ 7:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'm for inaccurate record-keeping as well.
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The Infamous Joe (profile), 10 Feb 2011 @ 7:05pm

Re:
You're confused. He's not defending SABAM, he's disagreeing with Mike.

I really want Mike to slip some pro-IP statements in an April Fools Day post just to see how many AC's disagree with him. :)
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techflaws.org (profile), 11 Feb 2011 @ 2:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Can you point out any of his comments where he agreed with Mike where Mike was wrong? Of course pointing out without your usual "I am right and you are wrong" basell bullshit.
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techflaws.org (profile), 11 Feb 2011 @ 2:21am

Re: Re: Only one question
Why not? You are all the time.
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Richard (profile), 11 Feb 2011 @ 5:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Belgium... the UK... the whole EU. And, beyond that, all North America. Japan. Korea. Both Koreas. China. The New Russia and the old Soviet Union... It doesn't matter what some moldy text says. It matters how the law is applied: And who gets it applied unto them.

That's the law.

Now you sound like a 1930's gangster running a protection racket with the police force all bought off ...Oh wait yes - now I understand.
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Colin, 11 Feb 2011 @ 5:52am

Re:
I've marked all of his comments as "funny". I don't think I'm using those buttons correctly...
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:15am

Re:
"....reasonably close....."

That's the comedy post of the week, right there. Did he really just go and search around for these titles, providing links as well? Dude, you seriously need counselling, it really is pathological with you.

+1 to the number of people BASTA made look stupid.

PURE COMEDY GOLD!!

BTW: SABAM did no searching or checking for any songs so there was no error. The only search they made was of the price list.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
YES, it IS illegal to take money on pretences. Of course it is. Even a child can work that one out.

And yes, it is true everywhere in the world... except TAM Town, where taking money on pretences is the norm. Exhibit A: The Music Industry.

Oops, sorry, small correction, TAM's BOSS' town. TAM just cleans the toilets but his boss promised him the kingdom of a small island once he's helped him take over the world and he really, really means it!
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Marcus Carab (profile), 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Can you point out any of your comments where you agree with Mike? If Mike said the sky was blue, you'd insist it was green.

See: that sword cuts both ways. You can't invalidate my opinions just by pointing out that they are often aligned with someone else's.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Proof that right or wrong are irrelevant to TAM.

Only Mike or NotMike matters in his psychotic little brain.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:38am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
(I also rather like how you completely ignored the comment above, where I explain very clearly why you are wrong about SABAM - I guess you know when to quit, at least)
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:40am

Re:
They already made it! Unfortunately, once they reviewed the finished video, they realised they had actually recorded "I'll Towel You Dry A Bit" by mistake and hadn't noticed it was a completely different song because it was............... wait for it............. REASONABLY CLOSE AHAHAHAHA!
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Feb 2011 @ 7:41am

Re: SABAM steals
Theft would be a tad harsh, but criminal damage wouldn't.
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Johnny, 11 Feb 2011 @ 12:32pm

Some points
For those who couldn't watch the show due to not being able to understand Flemish, a few points:

- The BASTA team, sent 5 or 6 playlists worth of non-existing artists and non-existing songs, they got an invoice in each case. In other words, this was no error, nor was it a 1 time mistake, it's systematic.

- As for the "reasonably close" comments, the SABAM invoices stated that the works were "100% protected", the camera shows this several times during the show. That statement implies that it was checked by SABAM. While evidently they didn't.
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Ash, 31 Mar 2011 @ 6:40pm

Re: Agreeing with Mike
"Can you please point to any of your comments where you don't agree with Mike?"

Only if you can point to YOUR comments where you AGREE with Mike.

Oh wait, you can't - Because you're an Anonymous Coward...
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Bergman (profile), 21 Feb 2012 @ 7:49pm

If they charge 82 euros for a 0.99 square meter party, what's the fee for an infinite number of angels dancing on the head of a pin?
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