Austrian Police Seize Computers From Tor Exit Node
from the how-long-will-this-take-to-explain dept
Javier points us to the news that the police in Austria have seized a bunch of computer equipment from the home of someone running a tor exit node. The email is not entirely clear, but it sounds like someone used tor -- via that exit node -- to access a porn site. Seeing as the equipment was seized, I'm assuming that this wasn't just a standard porn site. It seems like this is a risk that many people running tor exit nodes may face -- but the big question is how difficult is it to explain to the police what tor is, what an exit node is, why such things are perfectly legal, and why this means they're looking in the wrong place? Or will law enforcement just avoid all these details and assume that running a tor exit node is proof of guilt?Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
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Answer:
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A Valid Concern
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Re:
But you won't realise that until it affects you and then it will be too late.
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Re:
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Tor is the future of piracy!
Ladies and gentlemen, this is the reason Tor will not last forever unregulated.
Tor is ignored because it has a very small user base. As it grows, don't think law enforcement's interest won't as well.
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This has happened before.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/2009/03/19/passion-and-dalliance-blog-why-you-ne ed-balls-of-steel-to-operate-a-tor-exit-nod.html
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Re: Answer:
I saw this SAME EXACT BULLCRAP, as did my uncle who is 40 years older than me, with blacks having sex with whites, homosexuality and heterosexuality outside of marriage at one time.
It's just an attempt to create a boogie man to gull the masses into supporting politicians and others who are 'hard on deviants' (of which there is really no such thing).
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Re: Re:
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Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
They can try to say that encrypted/anonymous web surfing is now made illegal by law, but everyone who hasn't been gulled with the "LAW AND ORDAH" bullcrap will just ignore it, as I personally will.
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Re: Re: Re:
Anonymity is bad -- says the coward posting as Anonymous.
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Re: Re: Re:
Do you get it? No? Well good luck in life.
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Re: Re: Re:
No one other than you is arguing that bad things are good and worthwhile things.
What they are saying is that many good and worthwhile things will be cramped, even destroyed altogether in the pretence of ensuring that bad things never ever happen in the digital space.
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Re:
Did you really just suggest that anyone who enables a tool that has helped dissidents around the world stay safe need to "pay the price" of being accused of helping kiddie porn? You're a sick, sick individual.
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Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Ladies and gentlemen, this is why we don't let the technologically ignorant decide how technology works.
Good luck "regulating" Tor.
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Re: Re: Answer:
Bullcrap is the only word to describe your view.
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Re: Re: Re:
Remember, every time you justify punishing an innocent person, you justify letting a guilty person walk free (and are one step closer to that innocent being you).
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Re:
Then why didn't they seize all the equipment of the ISP?
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Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
I saw a photo of guy arrested for kiddy porn the other day and he was wearing glasses, obviously so that he could *see* the porn. Let's arrest the optometrists that enable these guys to see kiddy porn!
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Solution: Arrest the toll booth operator. Ignore the terrorist.
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I wonder if they bothered to go after the site hosting the material, or is that just too much work.
Nearly every report I see about child porn they are confiscating equipment and arresting some individual person for getting/having the material. I never see 'child porn production facility shut down when police...'.
Almost makes a person think they don't care about the kids, but just want to have an easy target that can generate headlines.
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Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Also, Tor themselves have described numerous mechanisms by which a dedicated, well funded entity could break the network's anonymity.
It's not a secret. They are very public about it.
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From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
hahahaha. Just when I thought you Techdirtbags couldn't be any slimier you hand me this gift.
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Re:
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Valid point, but not a reason to arrest someone running a simple proxy.
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Re:
Fear. That's exactly the way they want people to respond: with fear.
Whoever is responsible for this raid should be taken out and strung up, along with anyone that was cheering them on. Turn the fear around the other way and see how quickly stuff like this stops.
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Re: Re:
Probably a copyright maximalist as well. Of course, I realize that calling someone a copyright maximalist and a sick individual is redundant.
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Losing argument.
FYI, you will be slaughtered in the propaganda war when the time comes.
There is only one Internet issue I know that gets the average 40-70 year old voter riled up and ready for blood, and that is child porn.
Fortunately for you, you don't have much to worry about. Tor is not yet the target of any significant legal interest. Yet.
When that changes, and it will, I can guarantee which way public opinion will face. It won't be in favor of the pedophiles (or the 'political dissidents').
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From what I've read, the police operate a lot of the child pron sites themselves as stings. Should they arrest themselves?
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Given that things technical are becoming less understood by the average person, I expect guilty until proven innocent.
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Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Your level of desperation is telling. Because one idiot posts in support of such things it's a "showing." Hell, we've got more folks posting from your position of industry apologist/protectionist. Does that mean we support your position?
And, no, the person who posted such a claim is not an insider.
Are you so desperate that you can only resort to lying?
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You need help...
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Re: Re: Re:
The only thing revolting is that you would take a single comment from a sick individual on this site and associate it with the views of this site.
However, because you have NO REAL argument, this is what you stoop to.
You are a sick, sick individual.
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By definition, Tor is a tool to hide or to bypass legal restrictions put in place.
Anyone running a Tor node knows they are aiding semi-legal or illegal actions. It is the risk you take when you decide to help people get around the law.
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Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
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Re:
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Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Since you're so gung-ho about painting everyone with the same wide brush, you may want to watch what you paint. You're actively associating with said group; if you get your way, you will be up on the chopping block for association.
Remember the "Red Scare"? Remember what the US did with Japanese citizens during WWII? It happened before, it's not a stretch for it to happen again. We fight to prevent that, and we will fight to protect even you against that. So just remember who your lumping in with the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-A-likes.
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Re: Losing argument.
There are more than that number of dissidents using Tor in the US alone and globally there are millions using it. Very few use it for child porn.
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Re: Losing argument.
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Re: Re: Re:
The troll is strong with this one.
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Re: Re: Re: Answer:
Nice work, asshat.
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Re:
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Like freedom, eh?
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Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
BTW I don't see any so-called "copyright maximalists" advocate for sexual relations between adults and children. That position seems to be the exclusive property of the anti-IP/free speech extremists here on Techdirtbag. What's even more shameful is the sickening demonstration of tolerance on your blog for that sort of vile conduct.
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torrent == crime
tor == crime
Any other tools we should add to the list?
or maybe it's just
*tor* == crime
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Re:
No?
Hypocrite.
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* == crime
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Re:
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Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Like the holocaust and countless other myths of government wrong doing, those things never happened. Now move along.
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A strong respect for copyright demands strong protection for kiddie porn creators. The two are inextricably linked.
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Re: Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
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Disgusting pervs.
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Re: Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
If the recording industry is relying on you for their charts and statistics, no wonder their profits are hurtling towards the ground at break-neck speed.
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Re: Re: Losing argument.
-- copyright maximalist
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Re: Re:
1. diddler 157 up, 40 down
"One who thinks sexually unlawful things about children. Derived from "kiddy diddler". One doesn't actually have to touch a child to be a diddler. Anyone who promotes, is involved in, or looks at child pornography, can be considered a diddler."
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Re:
Anyone who could make such blanketly idiotic statements like saying pedosexuality should be legal and that they have no problem with child pornography is someone so devoid of any normalcy as to be unuseful here.
So, go away. Permanently. And I'll be here to shout down every single one of your disgusting pro-child-sex posts, you creepy dung heap....
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Re: Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Copyright maximalists just try to screw kids in different ways.
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Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
im an having trouble seeing how your second statement is supposed to be in defense of your first?
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Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
YAY!!!!!
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Re:
The people involved in this are far, FAR more clever and secretive than you think they are. The experienced ones aren't going to get caught by the police in any country, because they're far more intelligent and technically sophisticated than the police. They may get caught by people like me, because my expertise is superior to theirs; but that means very little as I'm NOT the police and have authority to do anything to them.
They're not going to impeded (or caught) by seizure of a Tor node, nor by seizure of a thousand of them. That's because they're using YOUR computer, if you are one of the 200 million or so people out there who no longer have effective control of their own hardware. So when YOUR door gets kicked down and YOU get busted for the kiddie porn on YOUR computer, you can lead the cheers for wildly-enthusiastic, but utterly clueless and hopelessly inept police actions like the one in this story.
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Re: Losing argument.
Two errors.
1)
It really should have read
"There is only one Internet issue I know that can easily distract the vast majority of mouth breathers from anything really important and that is shouting child porn about anything you don't like."
Mouth breathers ears perk up, realise they don't like child porn, for some reason assume everyone else thinks it's just the business and prepares to behave irrationally about something they don't understand.
2) Actually there are lots of internet issues that get the mouthbreathers riled up, the only thing these issues have in common is that they are used to distract from important issues.
Cry child porn to avoid actually dealing with child abuse whilst trampling all over ordinary freedoms.
Cry terrorism to avoid actually dealing with terrorism while performing security theatre or committing acts against international law.
Cry IP rights generate ideas and new technology while trampling all over anyone who tries to develop new ideas or to use technology in new and innovative ways.
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Re:
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Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
The problem is this: You run a Tor exit node, and someone uses it to request child porn. As such, that request appears to originate from your IP address. The police hit your house, take your equipment, and maybe even arrest you to boot.
You imply that this is bad, and it is. But you can't give anyone who runs a Tor exit node a free pass. What if -- just as an example -- you jump on your Tor server and start visiting child porn sites.
The police knock on your door, and you now innocently point to your Tor server and claim that some other "anonymous" person made the request through your machine. You're innocent.
Bingo. You've got your instant Tor "get out of jail free" card.
It's not that far-feteched. Remember the rulings and convictions given to "journalists" who were just "researching" child porn for an article or study? Same principe applies.
As long as some people misuse the system, the people who support the system are endangered.
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Re: A Valid Concern
Fear and chilling effects. I'm sure that those who would take away freedom appreciate your compliance. You set a fine example.
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From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
So you're suggesting that IP addresses correspond to individuals? They don't.
The police hit your house, take your equipment, and maybe even arrest you to boot.
The problem is with the police, not Tor.
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Re: Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Facts aren't your strong suit, are they?
BTW I don't see any so-called "copyright maximalists" advocate for sexual relations between adults and children.
Nor do we see copyright minimalists. Why associate two things that have no such association? If you want to bet that there are pedophiles who are also copyright maximalists, I'm sure such things exist. But would we make a blanket statement connecting the two? Of course not.
Why would you?
That position seems to be the exclusive property of the anti-IP/free speech extremists here on Techdirtbag
Only if you're too stupid to recognize that on the open internet people can say what they want.
What's even more shameful is the sickening demonstration of tolerance on your blog for that sort of vile conduct
Oh grow up. We allow open comments, and what happened? Within about 10 minutes of that comment getting posted, it was reported and downgraded.
Of course, you and your friends never see such comments, because on your sites *you don't allow open comments*. We don't "tolerate" such comments. We find them equally sickening and have said so many times in the past.
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Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
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Re: Re: Answer:
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Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
"just when I thought you Techdirtbags" - Another AC that is a legend in his own mind.
"pedophilia apologists" Plural - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plural
I see only one, which this community quickly jumped on. No pun intended.
Blue box AC - king of fail.
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Re: Re: A Valid Concern
How about setting up your own Tor exit server? And then, perhaps, down the road we can read a story about your arrest and presumed innocence.
The problem isn't with Chris. The problem lies with the people who abuse the Tor system and twist it to their own ends.
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If the system allows you to pick out the porn, it'll pick out what ever YOU want to keep anonymous, too, regardless of it's current legal status.
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TIME FOR GO TO BED!
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Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
Based on your own logic above, Buck, you've now admitted that you support pedophilia. After all, you now appear to be advocating that no one complain about his speech.
Of course, most of us are smarter than you, and recognize there's a difference between "censorship" and reporting a comment as inappropriate. Yet, if we follow your own logic, it appears that the only person here, besides the sick individual Christopher himself, who is supporting pedophilia, it's you. After all, you claimed that merely supporting his right to speech, we're obviously supporting his views. Yet, here you are supporting his right not even to speak, but not to have his comments downgraded by the community. Thus, by *your own logic* you appear to be the only person here supporting Christopher's claims.
Ergo, via the logic of Buck Lateral, copyright maxismalists support pedophilia.
Of course, that's ridiculous, but I'm just demonstrating the inanity of your own arguments.
Buck, some of us would really enjoy it if someone with your views wanted to have a real discussion on these topics. Your desire to shit all over a forum where people are having a serious discussion on the best way to help creativity and society says an awful lot about you and the people who pay you to spew such bullshit. If you'd like to discuss serious issues seriously, we're happy to have those discussions here. Until then, we have to declare you a sick individual who would stoop so low as to associate a pedophile with totally unrelated views because you know you have no legitimate argument.
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Re: Re: A Valid Concern
For better or for worse, I have a lot to lose. I try to subvert the system in other ways, when I can. ;)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Please. An IP address, coupled with a timestamp, point to the location that was assigned that particular address at that particular point in time.
Now, for the sake of this argument, let's assume that location is your house. The police have followed the trail to your front door... and smashed it in. Now what?
Well, it's possible... that someone piggy-backed on your open WiFi network. It's also possible that someone issued the request through your Tor exit server.
And it's ALSO possible... if not probable... that it was you all along. So the police seize the equipment found at that location and turn it over to forensics.
What else *could* they do?
And no, the problem is not the police. The problem is that someone hijacked a system designed for one thing and twisted it to their own ends. Blame them, not the cops.
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Re: Re:
Now I realise that such a ban could have downsides but if you're against it, you are definitely promoting child porn.
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re: A Valid Concern
Says the other anonymous coward. What a hypocrite.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: A Valid Concern
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Re: Re:
There are just some things you don't touch with a 10 foot pole...
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Re:
Holy crap, that actually makes sense! So those who argue that new content will not be created without copyright must concede that we could put an end to this kind of horrible exploitation just by allowing the existing material to be copied and distributed freely!
(Note: what I have written is a logical statement; please do not take me to task for it unless you can think about this topic in logical terms and criticize my logic accordingly. I have no desire engage in religious bickering or its mental equivalents.)
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Re:
Cannot or choose not to, but let that pass. Note that "legally obtain by direct methods" is not the same as "legally obtain".
By definition, Tor is a tool to hide or to bypass legal restrictions put in place.
Interesting choice of words. Note that "bypassing legal restrictions" does not necessarily mean breaking the law. (Those who think about "anti-circumvention" will understand this at once.)
"Anyone running a Tor node knows they are aiding semi-legal or illegal actions. It is the risk you take when you decide to help people get around the law."
[YAWN] This argument works just as well if you replace "Tor node" with "classified ad column", "telephone network", "car rental agency", "bar", "sports team", "hardware store", etc., etc., etc.
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Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
Oh the irony.
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
Oh the fuckwaddery.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
No, it doesn't even necessarily do that (I suppose you've never heard of wireless?). It *may* indicate an entity to which an IP address was assigned, but that's usually about it. Don't assume it means more than it does.
Now, for the sake of this argument, let's assume that location is your house. The police have followed the trail to your front door... and smashed it in. Now what?
And shot you, your wife, and dog because of the *possibility* that you might try to defend yourself. You left that part out.
Well, it's possible... that someone piggy-backed on your open WiFi network. It's also possible that someone issued the request through your Tor exit server.
And it's ALSO possible... if not probable... that it was you all along. So the police seize the equipment found at that location and turn it over to forensics.
As to *possibilities*, there are many. It's possible for anyone with access to any router along the way to use the address. This includes people at the ISP, backbone providers, hosting companies, etc. I personally have access to such routers and, if I wanted to, I could easily spoof traffic. If the police are going to bust doors down and seize equipment based on *possibilities*, they should go after those as well.
What else *could* they do?
I just told you, they could go after everyone in the chain. What do you say about that? Or they could realize that going after *possibilities* doesn't justify such behavior.
And no, the problem is not the police.
So it's not a problem for police kick to kick in the doors of innocent people and take their property based on nothing more than a *possibility*? I disagree.
The problem is that someone hijacked a system designed for one thing and twisted it to their own ends. Blame them, not the cops.
I blame both. Sorry, I just don't worship cops run amok. And I wonder if this doesn't maybe have less to do with child pornography and more to do with the cops wanting to make an example out of someone running a Tor exit node and finding an excuse to do so.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Valid Concern
And I'm The Queen of England.
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Re: Re: Re:
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Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
According to copyright maximalist theorey, it would cease to exist without copyright protection. How would it be in circulation if it ceased to exist?
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Re:
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Re: Re:
Mob justice?
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Obviously child porn is different - cutting off the creation of new drugs would eliminate them from circulation as well - but what I'm drawing from this is that making something widely available is not a good way to combat it. Though I guess am straying slightly from logic when I say that my gut tells me any strategy that starts with "allow child porn to be traded freely" is not a good one...
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Yawn.
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Kind of like how a lynch mob is just democracy in action. Or two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And there's plenty of stuff for sale that turns my stomach, but I've learned to live with it-- astrology, Japanese pop music, celebrity gossip mags... I wish there were no demand for such garbage, but I must not let my gut lead my brain into faulty reasoning.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not so tough.
Besides, if the goal is to eliminate production and consumption of child pornography, and you are asserting that this is accomplished by legalizing the exchange and possession of child pornography, then I think the burden of walking through the logic falls on you...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Umm, no. You don't know what you're talking about. The people who developed TOR described exactly how it worked. In detail. They also pointed out various weaknesses. They weren't try to pull the wool over anybody's eyes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Time to brush up on technology huh? You can be easily identified, even through wireless. It's called logging and MAC addresses. All your wireless APs will log the MAC address and at which time it assigned you an IP. Find the hardware, find the culprit. Simple as that. Nothing magical here. Unless you start spoofing your MAC (which no one ever does except more tech savvy people trying to hack the wireless), then you can get caught.
The moral of the story is: you run a tor exit node, you are responsible for the traffic. You try to help people do illegal things anonymously (because let's face it, 2/3 of it is for illegal stuff otherwise why hide at all?). It's the same for "open" VPNs. You offer them for free (or a small free). You own the service. You rent it. You are responsible for traffic going through it.
Then you get caught and start crying. Boo hoo. I'm sure if you go to your ISP's website and read their AUP and TOS, they WILL tell you that you're responsible for 100% of traffic going to your IPs. There you have it. They won't police yo, but if they have complaints about it, they will act on it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Huh? What "flock"? Is that your usual method of argument, to accuse people of being pedophiles? People like you are almost as bad as the pedophiles. You're both sick.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So if we are talking about the records of such acts as you put it, the core question is threefold: 1) would making the existing pornography freely available eliminate the production of more? and 2) what other ramifications would this have? (are we sure it would reduce instances of actual sexual abuse?) and 3) where are we drawing the purely moral line?
See, that's the thing - despite your desire to stick to logic, this is a moral question, because it is a moral decision in the first place to say that producing child pornography, or even sex with children, is wrong (many people throughout history and today have taken the firm moral stance that it isn't, though I wouldn't like to meet any of them). So since we are all agreeing that the sexual abuse of children is wrong, can we not also say that allowing anyone people to sexually indulge in depictions of it is wrong too? It bears some similarity to arguments over the use of medical discoveries made by Nazi doctors - an emotionally heated topic to be sure - but with other big differences too.
But still, while "what's done is done?" is a pretty rock-solid logical statement, you could take this to a whole new level by considering the logic of a society's moral standards and the psychological role they play with, ultimately, real and measurable impacts. I dunno, it's a big topic, and my main point is that I don't think the logic is quite as clear-cut as you make it out to be (elementary logic is a handy tool when you want to get right to the point while missing a million other points)
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Not really. I make living from this stuff everyday.
You can be easily identified, even through wireless.
No, you can't. IP addresses (and even associated MAC addresses) don't identify people. It is the technically ignorant who believe otherwise.
It's called logging and MAC addresses... blah blah blah
None of which gives your "location", as you claimed. WiFi *can* reach many miles. My own WiFi signal covers several street addresses. To put it in simple terms for you, it could be in use at any of them. Is that so hard to understand? So which door should the cops kick in? Now, please, stop making stuff up.
The moral of the story is: you run a tor exit node, you are responsible for the traffic.
Says who? You? The guy who doesn't even understand networking?
You try to help people do illegal things anonymously (because let's face it, 2/3 of it is for illegal stuff otherwise why hide at all?).
Oh, there you go, pulling out the old, tired, "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you should have nothing to hide" line. That's been debunked so many times I'm not even going to wast my time with it.
Then you get caught and start crying. Boo hoo. I'm sure if you go to your ISP's website and read their AUP and TOS, they WILL tell you that you're responsible for 100% of traffic going to your IPs. There you have it.
I hate to break it to you, but AUP's and TOS's aren't laws. And there *you* have it. Boo hoo.
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OK, apology accepted :)
I don't for a second believe that all five of the ACs responding to me here are actually different people
Who ever said they were?
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In any event his disgusting advocacy has no place here and the world would be a better place without Christopher hiding behind the First Amendment to advance his perverted cause.
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Whoever bothered to change their IP address between comments in an attempt to make it look like they were.
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Re: Re: Re: Losing argument.
Fixed it for you.
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Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
"Yikes, You have censored the your anti-IP/free speech ally, Christopher's nauseating advocacy on behalf of adult-child sexual relations. I guess there really are limits on free speech after all, even here amongst the Techdirtbags. Bravo!! But too late"
"Based on your own logic above, Buck, you've now admitted that you support pedophilia. After all, you now appear to be advocating that no one complain about his speech."
Read carefully dipshit. I congratulated Techdirtbag for censoring the free speech of the pervert Christopher. Then you "cleverly" distort that into supporting pedophilia.
"Of course, most of us are smarter than you, and recognize there's a difference between "censorship" and reporting a comment as inappropriate. Yet, if we follow your own logic, it appears that the only person here, besides the sick individual Christopher himself, who is supporting pedophilia, it's you. After all, you claimed that merely supporting his right to speech, we're obviously supporting his views. Yet, here you are supporting his right not even to speak, but not to have his comments downgraded by the community. Thus, by *your own logic* you appear to be the only person here supporting Christopher's claims."
Yes, and there is a difference between censorship and cutting off ad support, payment processing, and DNS listing by US based search engines. Like Christopher's comments can still be read, a rogue website can still be located and monetized. And like Christopher's vile comments, it's now much less apparent and readily available to the public- just as it will be for rogue websites. I applaud what happened to Christopher and I'll be cheering what happens to certain rogue websites 5 minutes after President Obama's signature dries on Te PROTECT IP Act.
"Ergo, via the logic of Buck Lateral, copyright maxismalists support pedophilia.
Of course, that's ridiculous, but I'm just demonstrating the inanity of your own arguments."
Thorazine may be the best place for you to start. Talk to your doctor... soon.
"Buck, some of us would really enjoy it if someone with your views wanted to have a real discussion on these topics. Your desire to shit all over a forum where people are having a serious discussion on the best way to help creativity and society says an awful lot about you and the people who pay you to spew such bullshit."
Masnick, between Chris-The-Diddler, Josh, who thinks the CIA is planting chips in people's brains and the many other dolts, morons, apologists and freeloaders- your characterization of this site engaging in serious discussion borders on fraud. This is an echo chamber of extremist zealotry. I'm happy to pop up now and then and drop the turd of reality in your punchbowl of koolaid. Give me a scholarly rebuttal of the constitutionality of the bill, not shrill, general denouncements of how it violates the 1st and 14th Amendments. Give me something that doesn't make me think you're just another feckless buffoon of a conspiracy theorist off on a copyright jihad.
"If you'd like to discuss serious issues seriously, we're happy to have those discussions here. Until then, we have to declare you a sick individual who would stoop so low as to associate a pedophile with totally unrelated views because you know you have no legitimate argument."
I think it's been made perfectly clear through the unwitting cooperation of Chris-The-Diddler that free speech is not an absolute right and censorship is appropriately used in given circumstances. Techdirtbag was absolutely right to censor this perverts shocking remarks and marginalize and obscure his comments behind a pale pink, barely visible notice. If it was up to me, his remarks would be deleted and he'd be banned from the site. But you're probably too soft for that.
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What makes you think that was the objective? Usually when that's the case, someone will use different names. An automatically assigned, dynamic IP address is another thing.
You're really on a roll of falsely accusing people of things today, aren't you? And to think, you write articles for Techdirt. Shame.
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History indicates otherwise.
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This is the whole POINT of being against government censorship: believing that communities like Techdirt are capable of regulating what goes on within their communities by themselves, instead of relying on some central agency to determine what's okay and what's not.
Christopher being flagged is a perfect example of why government censorship isn't necessary.
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1. I violated no one's privacy right.
2. I did not look up anyone's IP address. The gravatar next to his name matches with the gravatar next to Buck Lateral's name. Same guy. Anyone could have seen it.
3. Nice try, but massive fail.
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You're welcome. Let me know when you need to be straightened out again. :)
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In a representative democracy the community is represented by elected officials. They make laws. Law enforcement and the courts take it from there. Who do you think is better representative of the community that is the United States of America? Techdirt? Google?
Interestingly if Chris-The-Diddlers comments were subject to a judicial review instead of that of the Techdirtbags, his loathsome comments would still be here. Chris-The-Diddler's disgusting comments got less due process and free speech protection than the rogue websites would under the PROTECT IP Act. Let's face it, the reason that Chris-The-Diddler was dealt with harshly is because his free speech was extraordinarily offensive. Rogue sites give you free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay for. Game, set, match.
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You seem to have confused Techdirt with a government entity. "Due process" doesn't apply to private websites like Techdirt.
Rogue sites give you free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay for.
Really? That's the definition of a "rogue site"? Like a site that lets you post comments for free, instead of making you pay? Like Techdirt?
Game, set, match.
But, for the other side.
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As your nearest neighbour, closest ally and biggest trading partner, I have plenty of reason to be interested in what goes on in your country. If you still think in purely national terms, you have a small mind that is not suited to the modern era.
dealt with harshly
Hidden below a single-click viewing threshhold. Harsh!
I repeat: comparing a commonplace blog commenting mechanic like a report button to complex, sweeping legislation like PROTECT IP is ridiculous and you know it.
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You admit you are literally the only person pushing your agenda - but we're the lunatic fringe?
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Are you going to start waving a flag now?
"They make laws."
Based on what parameters? That's a REAL important question.
" Law enforcement and the courts take it from there. Who do you think is better representative of the community that is the United States of America?"
It sure ain't our current crop of politicians, who represent special interests.
" Google? "
And the personal crusade continues...
"Interestingly if Chris-The-Diddlers comments were subject to a judicial review instead of that of the Techdirtbags, his loathsome comments would still be here."
... You can click on the text and see it. But people are forewarned. Please stop being childish...
"Chris-The-Diddler's disgusting comments got less due process and free speech protection than the rogue websites would under the PROTECT IP Act. "
I guess that was too much to ask.
"Chris-The-Diddler was dealt with harshly is because his free speech was extraordinarily offensive. Rogue sites give you free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay for. "
FFS, this is the avenue you choose to use? Someone said something extraordinarily stupid and offensive. No police are coming to his door. The community has seen that taboo door opened and quickly DEALT WITH THE ISSUE.
Those "rogue sites" continue to provide a service. Period. Here's the problems that have legal alternatives:
MPAA offers movie streams
RIAA offers music streams
Demos of songs
Fair licensing
Lessening of copyright duration
I could go on, but I'm sure you'll do your fair share of more insults.
Anyway, the point is if you really want to deal with the problem, without government BS in the way, as a copyright holder, provide alternatives to piracy. Something you can never acknowledge because you've gone more and more into being some offensive shill than anything else. There's been plenty of research that proves you wrong. All the PIPA is going to do is upset people until its eventual repeal.
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Huh. I spoof a new MAC address every boot-up, especially if I am connecting to a public hotspot. Just on general privacy principles.
It's the same for "open" VPNs. You offer them for free (or a small free). You own the service. You rent it. You are responsible for traffic going through it.
Well, if you are using a VPN service that doesn’t keep address logs based in a country that doesn't require address logs, then your trail is pretty damn hard to follow at that point.
I'm sure if you go to your ISP's website and read their AUP and TOS, they WILL tell you that you're responsible for 100% of traffic going to your IPs
You are probably right, somewhere way, way down deep in that TOS wall of text, that no one ever reads, it probably does say that.
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"You seem to have confused Techdirt with a government entity. "Due process" doesn't apply to private websites like Techdirt."
I see, do as I say (shrilly I might add) not as I do. Got it.
"Rogue sites give you free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay for."
"Really? That's the definition of a "rogue site"? Like a site that lets you post comments for free, instead of making you pay? Like Techdirt?"
That's what you get simpleton. The definition includes the term 'dedicated to infringing activity' Shit, Masnick ought to pay me for spiking traffic over here at his shithole lunatic asylum.
"Game, set, match."
Not even close Poindexter. By now I'm sure you're having flashbacks to the dodgeball games in high school gym class. PTSD much?
But, for the other side.
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So in order for private entities to criticize the government, they must first declare that there should be no difference between the private and public sectors? Interesting. You don't believe in the people regulating their government? That seems kind of un-American...
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1) Repeal the first amendment entirely, since it doesn't apply to private entities.
2) Apply the first amendment to the private sector, and make restricting speech illegal
I can't say I like the sound of either of those myself, but whatever floats your boat...
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Re: Losing argument.
What is "child porn" anyway?
The pic my mother has of myself and my sister as kids taking a bath together?
Please define.
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"As your nearest neighbour, closest ally and biggest trading partner, I have plenty of reason to be interested in what goes on in your country. If you still think in purely national terms, you have a small mind that is not suited to the modern era."
England's our closest ally. I doubt that there are a lot of Americans who jump into the middle of domestic policy debates of Canada and those who do should really just mind their own business.... as should you.
"dealt with harshly"
"Hidden below a single-click viewing threshhold. Harsh!"
Don't worry, you can still freeload using DNS work-arounds. It's going to be a bit harder after PROTECT IP with the rogue sites losing ad support and payment processing services.
"I repeat: comparing a commonplace blog commenting mechanic like a report button to complex, sweeping legislation like PROTECT IP is ridiculous and you know it."
Not really numbnuts. The effect is the same. Just a matter of degrees. Why don't you run along and download some American content while you still can and leave the domestic policy discussions to the people that actually live here.
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And you also do not understand the fundamental political concept of the difference between the public and private sectors?
You are a fool.
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England's our closest ally. I doubt that there are a lot of Americans who jump into the middle of domestic policy debates of Canada and those who do should really just mind their own business.... as should you.
You're right about England, officially - I was thinking of your leaked secret diplomatic cables where you kept calling us your closest ally, my mistake. And you can't deny all the other extremely strong ties between us, especially economic ones. So I really have to assume you are joking when you claim I have no reason to care about U.S. policy, and policy related directly to the global internet no less... joking or stupid.
(And yeah, fewer americans would pay attention to canada - we all know your country influences mine more than the other way around. Which is exactly why Canadians care nearly as much about American politics as we do about domestic politics. Unlike America we don't pretend we are the only country on earth.)
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"So since we are all agreeing that the sexual abuse of children is wrong, can we not also say that allowing anyone... to sexually indulge in depictions of it is wrong too?"
No. It's nasty, but it harms no one and thoughts are free (I feel very strongly about that). War is horrible, but if my neighbors get worked up into patriotic/xenophobic zeal watching archival footage of the carnage at Midway... well, it's troubling, but ultimately not my business.
(The only possible rebuttal I can see is that consumption might create a market, which could drive production, sort of like the ivory trade. I have no idea if this is how it works and I don't think solid evidence exists.)
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Coming from an american. lol
"I see, do as I say (shrilly I might add) not as I do."
"Canadian Recording Industry Association - EMI Music Canada Inc., Sony Music Entertainment Canada Inc., Universal Music Canada Inc. and Warner Music Canada Co. - agreeing to pay over $50 million to settle claims involving hundreds of thousands of copyright infringements.
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/5825/125/
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"Are you going to start waving a flag now?"
Does patriotism offend you? Odd. Maybe you should seek political asylum in Canada and room with Marcus.
"They make laws."
Based on what parameters? That's a REAL important question.
A bill hits the floor, it's debated, perhaps amended then voted on. In the case of PROTECT IP, there will be a vote for cloture.
" Law enforcement and the courts take it from there. Who do you think is better representative of the community that is the United States of America?"
"It sure ain't our current crop of politicians, who represent special interests."
Try voting instead of whining. Or maybe for comic relief you could run for office as the Pirate Party candidate. Those guys are such losers they'd probably even take you.
" Google? "
"And the personal crusade continues..."
Puppeteer for Public Knowledge, CDT, EFF, Ron Wyden and more. Alas, you have me dead-to-rights.
"Interestingly if Chris-The-Diddlers comments were subject to a judicial review instead of that of the Techdirtbags, his loathsome comments would still be here."
"... You can click on the text and see it. But people are forewarned. Please stop being childish..."
I see. Do as I say, not as I do. H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E. At least I say I oppose unfettered garbage masquerading as free speech. I hoped Masnick would delete the comments and ban him, but he's too soft.
"Chris-The-Diddler's disgusting comments got less due process and free speech protection than the rogue websites would under the PROTECT IP Act. "
"I guess that was too much to ask."
Sorry. Missed it.
"Chris-The-Diddler was dealt with harshly is because his free speech was extraordinarily offensive. Rogue sites give you free stuff that you'd otherwise have to pay for. "
"FFS, this is the avenue you choose to use? Someone said something extraordinarily stupid and offensive. No police are coming to his door. The community has seen that taboo door opened and quickly DEALT WITH THE ISSUE."
Just as the community of the United Sates of America will deal with the issue of rogue sites dedicated to disseminating infringing content through its judicial process.
"Those "rogue sites" continue to provide a service. Period. Here's the problems that have legal alternatives:
MPAA offers movie streams
RIAA offers music streams
Demos of songs
Fair licensing
Lessening of copyright duration
I could go on, but I'm sure you'll do your fair share of more insults.
Anyway, the point is if you really want to deal with the problem, without government BS in the way, as a copyright holder, provide alternatives to piracy."
Granted, there could be a faster adaptation to alternative distribution. It's starting to catch up. I never considered my need to wait to see Hangover 2 as justification for stealing it. We are talking about entertainment aren't we? Not water, not food, not medicine. Entertainment,
"Something you can never acknowledge because you've gone more and more into being some offensive shill than anything else."
Offensive? Are you such a thin-skinned, Nancy-boy that you can't mix it up on an internet forum without getting your feelings hurt? Christ, how many gym classes did you spend locked in your locker? Grow a pair, would you?
"There's been plenty of research that proves you wrong."
Love to see the empirical research on the effects of a law yet to be enacted. Hop in your time machine and fetch it for us.
"All the PIPA is going to do is upset people until its eventual repeal."
I'll wager that it will upset people. Freeloaders, apologists, conspiracy theorists, foreign criminal organizations, Josh the Techdirtbag religious nut who talks about CIA chips implanted in people's heads, Chris-The-Diddler, the tin foil hat wearing Masnick, Marcus the wannabe American and you.
The chances of repeal are zero.... unless you have a meteoric rise in the Pirate Party and wrest control of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
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I would agree if I felt it was sure that it harms no-one - but I think it is worth considering that the availability of child pornography encourages more actual acts of child molestation. The opposite could also be true. Or, more subtly, you could consider the ripple affects on a society where child pornography is permitted - on its child-rearing methods, its concept of innocence, its inclination towards domination or violence, and the general pride of its citizenry in their own "standards". Though not entirely tangible, these are all very real things that I think play into the logic of it all beyond the simple presence or absence of direct harm caused by child pornography.
In any case, I've thoroughly enjoyed this discussion - rationally exploring different facets of a topic by defining its elements, then carefully building consensus where possible, is a damn luxury in a comment thread with Buck Lateral :D
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For every time Masnick and others boo hoo about how this will "break the internet" there are ten guys who shrug and talk about easy it will be to work around. So enough with the moaning already.
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No, you can't. IP addresses (and even associated MAC addresses) don't identify people. It is the technically ignorant who believe otherwise. So people who designed networks are ignorant. The little troll on TD knows best.
It's called logging and MAC addresses... blah blah blah
None of which gives your "location", as you claimed. WiFi *can* reach many miles. My own WiFi signal covers several street addresses. To put it in simple terms for you, it could be in use at any of them. Is that so hard to understand? So which door should the cops kick in? Now, please, stop making stuff up..
Wait what? First, you tell him to stop making stuff, yet you blatantly lie in the same phrase. Your own signal? haha. Right. Either it's a corporate one (you couldn't afford it with your troll salary) or it's a plain and simple ignorant lie. And about location, it'll give you the location of the AP, who is, according to his CONTRACT SIGNED WITH THE ISP, responsible for the traffic.
Says who? You? The guy who doesn't even understand networking?Still assuming you're a simply idiotic troll with no IQ, read up your AUP and TOS. You'll probably need a lawyer to explain to you the big lines of the contract, and the legality of it all, because you obviously like to create your own interpretation of data.
Oh, there you go, pulling out the old, tired, "if you aren't doing anything wrong, you should have nothing to hide" line. That's been debunked so many times I'm not even going to wast my time with it. And now you put words in his mouth just so you could spout out that same tired argument. See it's not so hard to debunk other's ridiculous claims, especially when they're made by a troll that has nothing better to do.
Boohoo. Keep crying that you door gets knocked down because you're aiding pedophiles. You're the one that'll be locked up. In the end, your lack of IQ and your sheer stupidity will by your downfall. And we'll point and laugh.
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Even if I believed everything you say, the U.S. aggressively pushes its IP law all over the world - strongly in Canada. Yet another reason why I care.
But honestly, this is stupid. If you really think Canadians shouldn't care about U.S. policy, you are a very very stupid man (which comes as no particular surprise)
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Trolling 101: Be sarcastic. Then, when they interpret it as sarcasm, you can claim to have been speaking literally. Or, if they take you literally, you can roast them for not recognizing your sarcasm.
If the DHS domain seizures were simply a landing page that hid the content with a message of "This content has been deemed inappropriate and/or potentially infringing by the Department of Homeland Security, click here to see it anyway" then I personally would have less of a problem with it. Requiring a single click isn't anywhere near the same level of hiding something as the DHS seizures.
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He's yet to really address any points brought up so it's not much to say. Odd that he brings in the Pirate Party just to have something to attack...
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Oh, the contradictory positions of the shills. What was it he said, and apparently practices? Oh right, "I see, do as I say (shrilly I might add) not as I do. Got it."
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Re: Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
"Trolling 101: Be sarcastic. Then, when they interpret it as sarcasm, you can claim to have been speaking literally. Or, if they take you literally, you can roast them for not recognizing your sarcasm."
Thanks, I'll try to work that in some time.
"Yes, and there is a difference between censorship and cutting off ad support, payment processing, and DNS listing by US based search engines. Like Christopher's comments can still be read, a rogue website can still be located and monetized. And like Christopher's vile comments, it's now much less apparent and readily available to the public- just as it will be for rogue websites."
"If the DHS domain seizures were simply a landing page that hid the content with a message of "This content has been deemed inappropriate and/or potentially infringing by the Department of Homeland Security, click here to see it anyway" then I personally would have less of a problem with it. Requiring a single click isn't anywhere near the same level of hiding something as the DHS seizures."
Its a matter of degrees. Chris-The -Diddler's vile pro-child porn comments were a minor, local matter. The comments were hidden away behind a hard-to-recognize message. Personally, I would have deleted the comments and banned the pervert entirely. Rogue sites whether distributing infringing content, dispensing phony medication or counterfeit auto parts are a global problem with global reach. It's not just some sick fuck on an obscure blog.
You didn't comment on cutting off their water. Are you OK with that?
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What'll be Jay? Due process or First Amendment? You pick.
"Odd that he brings in the Pirate Party just to have something to attack..."
I don't know why bringing up the Pirate Party is odd. It might provide you an outlet to do something other than piss and moan. Unless you're more committed to pissing and moaning than doing something about the situation.
I like the Pirate Party. I had fun filleting some douche from the Executive Council of Pirata awhile back on Ars Technica. He was a self-important windbag like you, so that's what made me think of it. He folded like a $3 umbrella too.
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See how your argumentation works now. Not guilty if I use it,. not guilty if I don't. It's a really nice spin. I'm not against TOR or other anonymity networks/software/etc. However the arguments here are ridiculous. "Why use it if you have nothing to hide?" is a little tiresome. However, it works both ways. And no one is argumenting that. You're all (most of you) sold to the idea that we absolutely need anonymity, otherwise the universe will implode. There are consequences. And this was one.
Now why not leave the police a chance to investigate further? Why is everyone coming to astonishing conclusions?
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It's global in that the websites are outside the reach of US jurisprudence. And those stealing American content are likewise in countries all over the world. It's still US companies and US content we're talking about. Fortunately or unfortunately, nobody really steals Canadian content like they steal US content. If there is discussion of a law dealing with infringing on Canadian content (other than US content produced in Canada) I promise not to meddle in your affairs, OK?
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Now?
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And now it's a choice between two natural rights... Fascinating. How much more you got?
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Life, liberty and property.
Why don't we just stick with the US Constitution issues since that's the document all laws are vetted against. If you want to punk out now, I understand
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Austrian police helping chinese censorship
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"life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" are derived from another philosopher, Hume at the similar time as Locke.
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Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
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Re: Re: Losing argument.
+1 Internets to you good sir, whomever you may be.
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Re: Re: Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
Pardon my French so to speak, but.....
WHAT THE FUCK!?!?
Are you honestly so stupid and ignorant as to believe that The Holocaust, The Red Scare(s), and The Japanese-American Internment never actually happened?
You sir(or madam) have pegged my idiot meter. I congratulate you, I didn’t know anyone with an IQ that low was actually capable of coherent speech let alone the ability to read and use a computer.
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Are you going to now trot out the false claim that copyright is "property" now too? Must we really debunk such claims yet again? Seriously. Tell whoever is paying you to send someone who can actually discuss stuff logically, rather than someone who trots out the lines that were debunked ages ago.
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Re: From The Diddlers-And-Perverts Department
What gift? You've easily shown what an utter stupid f*ckwhat you are and that none of those "accusations" you're pulling out of your ass will stick. EVER.
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Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
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Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
Actually he simply outsmarted you and beat your at you own game. Happens a lot here to dumbtards like you so better get used to it.
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That's rich coming from you.
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Nope, all you'll get is a more fitting nick, fuck lateral.
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I'm looking forward to your regular eloquent outbursts when you realize these actions won't have made a dent in piracy.
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Yeah right. You failed as miserably as you did trying the same with Mike here. Get real.
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And I'm actually a happy designer/writer who occasionally makes music for a hobby and has never had any intention of making money with it. That particular performance was five old poems mashed together last minute over a piano piece written in about one hour, to fill an open timeslot in a friend's spoken word event. It was lots of fun, and by odd chance there turned out to be a bunch of neuroscientists in the audience, who really went nuts for all my references to the brain (they were the ones shouting)
Glad you got a kick out of it! I sure did. Afraid I don't have video of the next one - writing new songs and adding backup singers made it even more enjoyable, but the videographer was a super-emo poet/filmmaker who hated me and kept stalling on giving me the footage (oh man, you would have just HATED that guy - I kind of did too though, so we would have had something in common for once).
That's the thing, see: any art I create, I create for my own enjoyment and that of the people close to me and other artists I know. I can see why that would be a foreign concept to you, but you should try it some time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
Am I so formidable a foe that you feel the need to disqualify me from the debate? I mean yeah, you're flailing around with your pathetic arguments, and it is getting pretty embarrassing so I can see why you want an exit strategy, but resorting too "Whatever, Canadian!" is kind of childish don't you think?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: From The Techdirtbag-Censorship-Department
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Re:
The solution is insightful because catching the toll booth operator is much easier than catching the terrorist speeding away. It is cost efficient. Saves tax dollars. Allows law enforcement to get back to whatever they were doing before being rudely interrupted by a terrorist.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
But, I do have something to protect - my privacy. Making law enforcement's job easier at the expense of personal privacy is not a compromise I am willing to make.
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This is the most awesome thread ever on TD!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
I am not using ignorance of the law as a defense of anything. This is a TOS, not a law. Show me a law that states I am responsible for traffic on my ISP connection.
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Re:
I really had to laugh out loud at this. I thought PROTECT IP was about foreign websites.
/sarc
Damn, can't have them foreigners talking about issues that affect them. We're AMERICANS damnit! We know what's best for everyone! And that Internet thingy belongs to us, because....um......because WE ARE AMERICANS damnit!
/unsarc
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
What exactly does that have to do with the police?
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Re: Losing argument.
What the hell? Why would you even imply that favoring pedophiles is a direction public opinion could ever possibly go? Or that it's on the table, or anyone here is in favor of it? Come back when you're ready to make a real argument rather than attempting to smear privacy advocacy with the pedophilia label. We don't need that kind of dishonesty here.
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But the US Constitution says it is property
You've SAID it alot of time, but as yet you seem unable to back up your statements with FACTS...
Just because you say something mike does not make it true, in fact if you say something that is a very good reason to question it for truth.
The Congress shall have Power [. . .] To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts,
by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
exclusive RIGHT
Exclusive rights are something someone CAN OWN, you own a right, and it can (YES CAN) be stolen, simply by someone else making it NOT EXCLUSIVE.
Mike, you are supposed to KNOW THE LAW, why cant you understand that simple statement ?
It is after all the US CONSTITUTION
That might be why you are running a 'hate blog' and not actually doing ANYTHING constructive, or helpfull.
(I guess its easy money for little work)
A RIGHT is property, as you can lose that right, and it is a right that has been granted to you by either what you have done, or by buying that right.
If your right to bear arms was removed, you have that right STOLEN from you, you no longer have that right.
If you have the EXCLUSIVE RIGHT, and that exclusivity is taken away from you, then you have had that right (lets call it copyright) STOLEN FROM YOU.
Mike, if you are a lawyer, (Big IF), then why cannot you state the truth about it ?
WHY DO YOU ALLWAYS LEAVE OUT THIS SECTION OF THE CONSTITUTION ????
by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries.
To all those people who say "but they have not lost anything they can still USE their creations"
You are WRONG..
They have lost their exclusive rightUS Constitution.
You do remember the US constitution ??? right ?
Or just the bits from it you can pull out of context for your own justification of crime ?
(and anit-constitutional acts)
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Re: Re: Re:
Using child porn as a tool to further your agenda... how does it feel when you look in the mirror? To know you're attempting to benefit from others' appetite for child pornography?
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When are you going to start to support your claims ??
Im sure the police, or any other 'authority' would be able to explain computer technology, the internet and its various services to a level that was well over your head mike.
To the point where you would be totally unable to keep up.
Do you honestly believe that police departments, security departments, Governments and so on do not hire the very best and brightest computer science grads and experts they can find ?
Do you honestly believe that a 'lawyer' writing a 'hate blog' who does not practice law and is not computer qualified would have a deeper knowledge of computer science and communications technology that massive IT departments specialising in that field ?
Do you honestly belive that the top 500 super computer are the actual top 500 ?
Or more like 300 to 800, where the top 300 are secret super computers maintained by security agencies, police forces, governments, NSA, DSD, ASIS ASIO, CIA and all them other initials ?
But from all those people and those many thousands of highly trained computer scientists, Mike Masnik know it all and far better.
He understands the law better than the courts, he understands computers better than entire massive departments of computer engineers.
And he knows the US Constitution like he is a professor in constitutional law !!!..
If that is the case, we would have expected better things from you Mike, and not the same ol 'same ol' over and over again, as if you say it enough times it magically becomes true.
I guess its easy to get the un-thinking masses to blindly follow you, and hang on your every word.
But you must find it very difficult to convince anyone who can think for themselves to eat your tripe !
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Re: When are you going to start to support your claims ??
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Using the TOR network is slow as balls.
Also you can be removed you if you take up too much bandwidth, not that you would want to try to get anything large over TOR anyway because as I said, its slow as balls.s
The only reason to use TOR is if you need anonymity, whether for nefarious needs or not. Although as the founders and maintainers clearly explain there are ways to mine the exit nodes for data.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just follow the pink instructions that you're complaining about and you get to see it regardless of how many others have voted it down. That's some brutal censorship, huh?
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Re: But the US Constitution says it is property
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Re: Re: Re:
Don't flatter yourself. This story didn't get any more traffic than our regular stories. It's kind of funny to watch people who obviously don't know any better assume more comments = more traffic.
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Re: Re: When are you going to start to support your claims ??
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Re: This is the most awesome thread ever on TD!
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1_DWYEIhgMK54_sBDMj5UnuW0bHmdADnCY3099_9ffFg
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps, we should classify the MPAA and RIAA as freedom fighters.
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He's still going on about how his bills will pass. Meanwhile, everyone is talking about the implications.
He moves the goalposts around so much it's just funnier to sit and watch him flail around like he has a point.
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Re: When are you going to start to support your claims ??
Just a really bad argument. Obama practiced for 10 years and found Bradley Manning to be guilty without a trial in the last year.
Point - You don't need to be a lawyer to understand your rights under the Constitution.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Your loss.
So people who designed networks are ignorant.
You think so? Me thinks then that it is you who is showing his ignorance.
Wait what? First, you tell him to stop making stuff, yet you blatantly lie in the same phrase. Your own signal? haha. Right. Either it's a corporate one (you couldn't afford it with your troll salary) or it's a plain and simple ignorant lie.
Wow. Talk about lying, there you go...
Still assuming you're a simply idiotic troll with no IQ, read up your AUP and TOS. You'll probably need a lawyer to explain to you the big lines of the contract, and the legality of it all, because you obviously like to create your own interpretation of data. ...blah blah blah...
Sigh. Typical authoritarian IP supporter.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tor is the future of piracy!
Huh? Do you even know what an AP is (in network terms)? It's an "access point". That's a device, *not* a person (who). And you really believe that a device is "responsible"? Really? Well, I'll just let your ignorance speak for itself. Thanks.
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Re: When are you going to start to support your claims ??
Well, you claim that they hired *you*. I think that pretty much answers that question.
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... a lot of things. Typical IP lovers. But, then, making stuff up is about the only way they have of supporting their positions. Kind of pathetic, isn't it?
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You mean, for example, like providing internet access? Selling digital cameras? Producing electricity? Teaching people how to read, write and use keyboards? Having children?
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You mean, for example, like providing internet access? Selling digital cameras? Producing electricity? Teaching people how to read, write and use keyboards? Having children?
Yes! All of those things!
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Re: Re:
If you're interested, my stance on the subject is, generally, until someone acts physically on his or her urges, there really is no problem. (Psychologically/physically damaging/hurting a person in the process. This, for me, includes "real" images and such, though not those drawn/written or otherwise devised from the realm of "Fantasy") What someone does with their imagination is of no consequence to me, even if it makes me want to puke. If it is of consequence to you, than well, why?
Also, sick individual? More likely uninformed, misguided, ignorant... Not sick. This could also be said for the one saying he's sick, then again, it's not like any one of us has an omni-potent intellect... Sorry, generalizing too much.
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I don't think anyone's objecting to anyone's fantasy. The "venom" is reserved for actual children being mistreated.
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What was the question?
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Either the country in question doesn't recognize the idea of a common carrier, or the police failed to realize they were essentially dealing with one. You don't seize an AT&T backbone server because someone downloaded kiddy porn through it. You don't seize a TOR exit node for the same reason.
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You can't choose the purpose of anonymity - you either have it for everyone or for no-one.
Enabling amonymity has some downsides but do you really think that stopping a few sad and random people is worth enabling Hitler for?
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Censorship is not the solution
I don't think so. Last time I checked there were no limits to free speech in either the Universal Declaration of Human Rights or in the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
From a philological point of view, setting ANY limit set on free expression is the top of a slippery slope ending in complete censorship. Once it has been accepted that anything that is said CAN be restricted from public discourse, then it is a fairly small step to anything that does not further the agenda of the ruling socio-economic group SHOULD be restricted. For examples please go look at China, Zimbabwe, and Saudi Arabia.
From a sociological point of view, denying someone the right to express an idea is the best way of convincing them that they are right. The best way of dealing with ideas of the quality brought forth by Christopher is not to censor his ideas nor to treat him like a pariah, it is to engage him in a discussion where the fallacies of his stance can be exposed and, hopefully, overturned.
The solution to inacceptable or taboo speech is not censorship... it is more speech.
PS: I'm a bit late to the fray, but I believe that this type of ideas need to be conteracted at every turn.
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To be fair, a backbone is not also a workstation that someone might use to download kiddy porn, while a Tor exit node is (if I understand it correctly).
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Finally!
Copyright has inspired some creativity.
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(I live in DC, I should know). :)
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To be fair, a backbone is basically composed of specialized computers with network connections between them (usually high speed). Not only can those computers be used to access and download material, they can spoof just about any address in their domain, making them virtually untraceable.
Perhaps you should refrain from making statements about things you don't understand.
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And indeed part of the problem that people tend to mix mental malady of being aroused with children and enabling abuse by consuming child pornography. The latter deserves punishment and/or and treatment, the former - mercy and tolerance.
There is a third class derived from intolerant and cruel laws. For example, me and my girl were in love since we were 16. I'm 2 month older than her. There was a 2-month period when I was a pedophile, then I suddenly became normal.
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Most jurisdictions require one party to be underage and the other to be both over the age of consent and also more than a certain amount older than the other party (such as two years older) for statutory rape.
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I'm saying that someone *could*. I not pointing the finger at anyone in particular and saying that they *would*. And your education is not my responsibility.
I'm going to need a citation on that, because I'm very skeptical of that claim.
What you *need* is to quit popping off about stuff you obviously don't know about. If you want to know the details of network communications, there are plenty of schools you can go enroll in, but your education is not my responsibility.
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But not all, obviously, as pointed out by the parent post.
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Re: Re: Answer:
All children deserve their innocence , and deserve to be defended from malicious predators.
While I understand that some people are 'born' with deviant sexual natures, there is NOTHING that forces someone to download images of children being abused. This is a disgusting choice.
Pedophilia should absolutely remain illegal, despite attempts by the elite to 'normalize' it.
We should always strive to protect our children from abuse in any just and righteous society. Cloaking child exploitation in the vague language of 'human rights' doesn't change the facts... that any pedophile that acts on his impulses is contributing to the abuse and exploitation of children.
Pedophilia is morally wrong and disgusting and no amount of politically correct nonsense will change that fact.
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