Writers Guild Realizing That SOPA Goes Too Far; Union Support For Censoring The Internet Begins To Crack
from the well,-look-at-that dept
Supporters of SOPA have been trying really, really hard to pretend that this bill is a "jobs bill." They keep touting the "union support." They try to downplay that the bill is really designed mainly to protect the big Hollywood studios from having to innovate (while their execs take home record salaries and the industry itself brings in record box office revenues). But it appears that the unions -- even those representing content creators -- are realizing that supporting legislation that props up the giant gatekeepers isn't in their best interests either. The Writers Guild of America West recently made the rounds on Capitol Hill to talk about a number of issues. On the list? How SOPA will do more harm than good:On the House side, Keyser and Barrios met with Reps. Henry Waxman, Howard Berman, and Janice Hahn. They thanked Waxman for his strong support of Guild issues and discussed concerns with the recently introduced Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA). Because Berman is a co-sponsor of SOPA, the pair discussed their concerns with the bill’s implications for competition and an open Internet. Although the WGAW strongly supports combating piracy, the competition, First Amendment, and due process concerns the bill creates must be addressed.It seems that the folks who represent content creators are recognizing that SOPA goes against their own best interests as well. By setting up a system that props up the gatekeepers, rather than encouraging new tools and services that help content creators directly, laws like SOPA don't actually help the creative community at all. It's nice to see that WGAW recognizes this, and don't be surprised if other groups of content creators start realizing the same thing pretty quickly.
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Filed Under: copyright, sopa, writers guild west
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What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Smart players against the bill would let it pass, and then set up test cases that can lock it in court for years, making it hard to enforce.
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
The unintended consequences are many. The expansion of the use of digital currencies like bit coin. The creation of new distributed tools for sharing of information. The creation of distributed, anonymous, untraceable, non-removable, websites. Think WikiLeaks on steroids, Drugs, CP, etc and you get the picture. The people pushing this think it will calm the 'Wild West' of the internet, it will do the opposite, and over a rather short period of time.
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
"Rounded edges on a phone! I claim them!"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Yes, you're right. Still I wouldn't call that "IP economy" unless... ooooh so that's why there are a lot of patent trolls. The US needs the money from them to prop up their failing economy. That explains it. Good luck East Texas, you're going to need a bigger (publicly funded) courthouse.
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
They obviously don't get a say in the matter, and they're all much bigger than the Hollywood economy.
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Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Pirate sites that can't come up with legal business models will suffer. They need to adapt or die.
For everyone else, life will go on exactly as before.
And *we* will all say, "I told you so", and *you* will all be the boy who cried wolf, with no one ever paying attention to you again.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
you know why you and the rest of the leeches in the entertainment industry need to buy laws? becuase your troll logic is the worst ever. yeah i really trust you people to police the internet.
but what else did i expect from people that sue dying kids with luekimia for miollions of dollers?
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
IP economy? What exactly is that? The less than one half of one percent of the GDP belonging to "motion picture and sound recording industries"? Or the less than 3% of the GDP when you combine the above with "broadcasting and telecommunications".
Wow, if that is your definition of "big" I feel sorry for your significant other.
Source:
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0670.pdf
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Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
You can't just say you're going to protect some IP, and let pilfering of other IP go unchecked.
That makes for a lawless society and never lasts very long.
That is exactly why the 2000s are referred to as the Wild West days of the web.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
This is about control, not dollars.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Why do you keep repeating that? According to the stats provided in my link you are off by a huge margin. These so called IP industries are actually a relatively small part of the overall economy. Do you have some kind of proof to back up your assertion?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Many of the people on this site, including the owner, seem to want the US to be like China, where there is no regard for IP at all.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Being like China - with an economy growing at >6% pa whilst the US and Europe are stagnating. Yeah that would be soooo terrible!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Once again - prove it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
How many business sectors in that chart *do not* rely on IP in some way?
You didn't think that through very well.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
No business relies on IP apart from that of the extortioners. (Patent and copyright trolls).
No honest business that produces real wealth requires IP at all.
It is you that needs to think stuff through.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
This bill is supported by the entertainment industry ONLY. not by the entirety of the IP sector.
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Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
This bill is supported by the entertainment industry ONLY. not by the entirety of the IP sector.
After the manager's amendment, the ISP's are on board. Do they count?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Citation needed.
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Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Even if I accept this assertion, and I don't, these bills seek to support a very, very, very minor player in the IP field and one that hasn't contributed anything new to it in years, unless you want to count the Sony rootkit.
The tech sector has come out firmly against these bills and they rely far more heavily on IP than Hollywood does and contribute a few hundred orders of magnitude more to the GDP and to the job market than Hollywood does or can.
Creator unions and representatives are coming out against these bills and they are certainly far more creative in everything but dodgy accounting practices than the higher ups in Hollywood are.
If the intent is to protect intellectual property within the borders of the United States I'm certain they'll backfire and badly needlessly criminalizing people, imposing censorship and so on while doing less than nothing to stop what they claim to stop.
In the meantime they'll damage American competitiveness in the sense that some speech and sharing will be illegal in the USA while, ironically, be legal and open in, say, China who will move smartly forward in that area and outgrow the US.
That already seems to be happening, if one goes by patent registrations in that for the first time 2010 saw China, Japan, Brazil, India, Taiwan and, for heaven's sake, the home of tangled, cobwebbed bureaucracy, the EU accept more patent applications that the United States did. (Keeping in mind, as well, that patent rules in those countries tend to be lot tighter than in the United States.) (I'm relying on news reports for this so take it with a grain of salt.)
What that tells me is that the USA is already missing out on potential income and possibly real income in terms of goods and services.
All SOPA/PIPA will accomplish is to continue this decline while providing welfare assistance to a particular industry that contributes diddly squat to the US economy. And don't get me started on their "creativity".
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Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
Let's see, unions for:
AFL-CIO
AFM
AFTRA
DGA
IATSE
SAG
TEAMSTERS
Against:
Writer's Guild of America-West
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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Re: What are the odds SOPA gets through?
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The best way to stop SOPA would ironically be the democrats strongly coming out in support of the bill, which would make the house suddenly refuse to even vote on SOPA, and would cause the bill to be filibustered in the senate. Why, because republicans have to oppose anything Obama/democrats are for.
Republicans strongly supporting SOPA would also likely kill it. The house would pass it, and Reid would refuse to even bring it to a vote in the Senate, or would bring it to a vote knowing that it'll lose just to show republicans that it can't pass the senate.
If you doubt me then look at the payroll taxcut fight going on right now. Republicans always support tax cuts, except when Obama & democrats support it, like the payroll tax cut being discussed.
The pharmacy lobbyists know this as well, there was part of Obama's healthcare law (I forget what part) that big pharma wanted removed from the bill that a lot of democrats had opposed when the healthcare law was written. Big pharma lobbyists told Republicans not to go on a public rampage demonizing that provision and blaming it on Obama, republicans demonized it and Obama for signing it into law anyway, and dozens of democrats who had previously voiced opposition to the provision voted against repealing the provision when the House voted on it months ago, and Reid refused to even hold a vote on it.
So the moral of the story? If we want to kill SOPA we just need to convince one political party to strongly support SOPA. The other party will reflexively strongly oppose SOPA and block it from ever becoming law.
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While you might be right, it's too late. PROTECT IP 's 41 cosponsors are split almost down the middle. SOPA's 32 sponsors leans more toward the Republican side but the unions are delivering Democrats. This Congress has been under withering criticism over its inability to work together to pass meaningful legislation. Everyone on the Hill depicts it as a jobs bill; and because jobs are front burner and to counter the loud criticism, this bill will fly through to prove to the country that they can work together to address job creation. Hearing begins tomorrow at 10 a.m and will be webcast. Techdirt will CwF by offering special, commemorative crying towels.
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Re: Re:
Ah yes, isn't that the same comment you were throwing around what was it, like 2 or 3 weeks ago?
What happened?
Oh that's right, you were wrong and the bill didn't pass like you said it would when you said it would.
What happened then? You came to this site every day since ACTUALLY CRYING (and pissing and moaning) and doing the same ol' same ol'. Will we never be rid of you? What will it take to be rid of you?
If I say "better business model" again do you promise to leave like OotB? Better business model!
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I'm wondering
"Although the WGAW strongly supports combating piracy, the competition, First Amendment, and due process concerns the bill creates must be addressed."
Wouldn't it be way easier to understand if they said "This is a bad bill and needs to be stopped"? It's just like writing a thesis, you don't dive straight into detail, you give an overview at the beginning.
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Re: I'm wondering
I think it's a business writing thing. As contradictory as it sounds, being wordy can be confused with eloquence. I often have to write things twice when I'm working, the second time just to simplify my purple prose.
Not that it worked in this instance.
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When even your friends think you've gone too far...
And now that it's all starting to unravel, SOPA is beginning to resemble something cooked up at the office over a pile of cocaine. It's got that blend of confidence and paranoia that seems to be in abundance during brainstorming sessions involving the devil's non-dairy creamer (or whatever the kids are calling it these days).
SOPA isn't just a regular big idea. It's "cocaine big."
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Re: When even your friends think you've gone too far...
Funniest thing I've ever read on techdirt.
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John Milton opposes SOPA
"It would be better done to learn that the law must needs be frivolous which goes to restrain things, uncertainly and yet equally working to good, and to evill. And were I the chooser, a dram of well-doing should be preferr'd before many times as much the forcible hindrance of evill-doing."
From Areopagita.
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Union "support" for PIPA/SOPA
AFL-CIO
AFM
AFTRA
DGA
IATSE
SAG
TEAMSTERS
Against:
Writer's Guild of America-West"
The union leaders have used our names to endorse these bills. This was done without a vote on the matter. Most of the rank and file members are essentially unaware of the issue. Of those who know about it I would hazard a guess that most are against it, at least that's the case in my IATSE local.
It's interesting to note that the Writer's Guild is in opposition, because along with SAG/AFTRA and DGA they have the most to gain because they typically get residuals. IATSE members (by far the largest in numbers) have much less to gain since most of us don't get residuals (that retirement annuity is a cruel joke since most of us will never qualify for it).
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Re: Union "support" for PIPA/SOPA
Are you sure? Do you go to meetings?
It's interesting to note that the Writer's Guild is in opposition, because along with SAG/AFTRA and DGA they have the most to gain because they typically get residuals. IATSE members (by far the largest in numbers) have much less to gain since most of us don't get residuals (that retirement annuity is a cruel joke since most of us will never qualify for it).
The biggest threat is to reinvestment, especially low budget. If your film is going to get stolen and offered all over the internet for free or next to nothing, how are you going to recoup your costs? Who it their right mind will lend you the money? Particularly true since few low budget films get a N. American box office release.
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Re: Re: Union "support" for PIPA/SOPA
And then you are going to argue that any of this has any affect on small production investment?
Disingenuous beyond stupid.
By the way, if you are going to post here so much, please pick a tag name. Pretending to be "any old person" is offensively dishonest.
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Re: union "support" for PIPA/SOPA
I go to most of them. It's kind of hard to be "sure". A rather low percentage of union members go to meetings and most of them don't speak on their views. I'm afraid to speak of it much on the job because my employer is very pro-SOPA and I don't want to jeopardize my job. But among those I have spoken to the case is as I have put it.
"the biggest threat is to reinvestment...how are they going to recoup their costs...who will lend them the money...."
That's the standard argument. Please back it up with solid data. I don't mean "piracy costs us $100bil per year!", I mean what is the average return on investment for low, medium and large budget productions, both feature and episodic. We know that the media corps are making massive, record profits. Net profit for NBC/Univrrsal was, what, $800mil for one quarter!!! Gross revenues in the tens of billions for all the biggies. That's an awful lot of capital for reinvestment.
I also want to be perfectly clear: I acknowledge piracy as a problem for capitalism. I just disagree on the scope of the problem. I would support limited, reasonable measures to deter piracy. SOPA/PIPA go way beyond reasonable. The cure is much worse than the disease.
I'm a grip. What do you do for a living?
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Re: Re: union "support" for PIPA/SOPA
The studios are less affected because of economies of scale. But understand that the studios are owned by multi-national corporations who have many other business interests. Those corporations first loyalty is to building wealth for shareholders. If a higher rate of return is available to Viacom by deploying capital to some other aspect of its operations than Paramount, be sure that money will be pulled out of an under-performing Paramount and deployed elsewhere.
Right now, SOPA has higher standards for taking action against foreign infringing sites than does US law for action against domestic ones.
As you are an actual stakeholder in the industry, I'd be interested in hearing more about what you think is reasonable and why.
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Assertion without evidence, or link.
Anecdote without link. Others must be also suffering.
Over-investment on spec: she made a 200k film without an existing supporting fan base? WTF?
200k is low budget for a lesbian film?
The Studios are huge multinationals so are partially immune (not what they argue -- funny that).
The studios will stop producing "art" and there will be no more art.(Yeah right)
SOPA is only more harsh to foreign sites than current law: (false) you mean ICE implementation which is yet to be determined legal.
SOPA is only more harsh to domestic sites than current law: (false)
And to your last point: It is doubtful you want to hear that, unless it is to craft a position paper against these union member's position (not the union).
BTW: as a consumer, I am an "actual" stakeholder in this policy discussion. Please note that.
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Re: Re: union "support" for PIPA/SOP
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Re:
Assertion without evidence, or link.
It's a pretty logical conclusion. Love to hear why I'm wrong
Anecdote without link. Others must be also suffering.
Go to her website
Over-investment on spec: she made a 200k film without an existing supporting fan base? WTF?
How many first time filmmakers have established fan bases? Where do you think the fans would have come from to begin with?
200k is low budget for a lesbian film?
200k is a tiny budget for anything but a student film. Most 30 second commercials have vastly higher budgets. But since you have no idea about the industry, I suppose it's a natural mistake.
The Studios are huge multinationals so are partially immune (not what they argue -- funny that).
The studios are OWNED by multi-nationals, not vice versa.
The studios will stop producing "art" and there will be no more art.(Yeah right)
The multi-nationals will invest in the aspects of their business that provide the highest rate of return.
SOPA is only more harsh to foreign sites than current law: (false) you mean ICE implementation which is yet to be determined legal.
You mean yet to be determined illegal
SOPA is only more harsh to domestic sites than current law: (false)
Not sure what you're saying but SOPA has more protections for foreign sites than current US law has for domestic infringing sites.
And to your last point: It is doubtful you want to hear that, unless it is to craft a position paper against these union member's position (not the union).
Sorry, you're babbling.
BTW: as a consumer, I am an "actual" stakeholder in this policy discussion. Please note that.
Good for you!! Make sure to contact your representative as s/he is representing your interests in this matter. As far as I'm concerned you can go pound salt.
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What would be reasonable
" I'd be interested in hearing more about what you think is reasonable and why."
I would support the interruption of payment processing for infringing works, in a stand alone bill that includes more robust due process, including a guarantee for a practical adversarial hearing, as well as strong penalties for misuse.
I feel strongly that these types of laws should be separated as to dealing with counterfeiting where physical goods are being shipped vs. IP only (content piracy)
I feel that SOPA/PIPA are too flawed to even work with -to bring them into reasonable shape would require striking most of the language and rewriting them. Better to just start over. Wyden/issa's OPEN initiative may lead to a workable compromise.
I leave you with this: I work in the film business, and MAY stand to gain a LITTLE if SOPA/PIPA passes. But I am also a consumer, and one who uses the Internet a lot, and I will certainly lose on those fronts. And remember me and all the other film workers make up less than 1/10 of 1% of the people in this country, even if we did gain some, is it ethical for us to screw everyone else over for that?
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Re: What would be reasonable
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