ICE Admits That It Just Wants To 'Put People In Jail' With Operation In Our Sites

from the nice-of-them dept

Wed, Dec 21st 2011 9:21am — Mike Masnick

Rob Fischer has a fantastic article at The American Prospect, looking at ICE's Operation In Our Sites program, with a specific focus on the seizure and subsequent prosecution of NinjaVideo. It's worth reading in its entirety, as a few things become clear. Here are just a few interesting tidbits, though. First up, the site's admins noted that they had done their best to abide by the DMCA, and they figured that if anything, they might have to fight a civil lawsuit, not a criminal one:

Under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1998 (DMCA), copyright owners are responsible for sending takedown notices to sites hosting infringing content. Anyone on YouTube who has ever read the statement �This video has been removed due to terms of use violation� has seen the result of a DMCA notice. �We believed that if we didn�t host the content but linked to it elsewhere on the Web, our only legal consideration was complying with takedown notices,� Beshara says. �And we always complied.�

But it wasn�t so simple. The DMCA takedown process allows intermediaries like YouTube to avoid liability because it�s their users uploading the infringing content. Ninja Video was both the intermediary and the uploader. Independent storehouses called �cyberlockers� hosted the content Ninja Video streamed, but Ninja�s uploaders put it there.

I'm not sure that this is really an accurate explanation of the DMCA issue, seeing as the users uploaded the content... that's the same thing with YouTube and Veoh, both of which have been declared legal under the DMCA. As long as they followed the safe harbor provisions, the fact that users upload shouldn't have an impact. There very likely may have been issues of secondary liability if the site encouraged people to infringe -- but that's a separate issue, and one that again should have been an issue for civil copyright law, rather than criminal.

The folks at ICE come across as typical meatheads with no clue what they're dealing with here. The real humdinger of a quote comes from ICE Special Agent William Ross, who earlier in the piece notes that he was influenced by Hollywood repeatedly asking him to do their job. But when confronted with the point (made by Corynne McSherry from EFF) that "Arresting people and putting them in jail for having some links online doesn�t really strike me as a good way for us to invest our time and energy." Ross hits back:

�I am a law-enforcement officer,� says Special Agent Ross. �I want to put people in jail.�

That, alone, is a pretty ridiculous and scary quote when you think about it. He's not talking about fairness or justice or upholding the law. He just wants to "put people in jail." People like that shouldn't have jobs in power.

In the end, it seems clear that the folks at Ninja Video received horrific legal advice and made some equally poorly thought out legal decisions themselves. I still don't see where the site's operators could have possibly been liable for criminal copyright infringement, but after throwing away the $10,000 they raised on lawyers, who (from the description in the article) did not appear to do very much (and it's not clear they ever understood fully what was happening), the admins quickly caved to government pressure on plea bargains.

In the wake of the Dajaz1 debacle by the Justice Department, it seems even more ridiculous that the NinjaVideo folks agreed to the plea deals. If they'd just received some decent legal advice early on, they wouldn't now be facing years in jail. Pretty unfortunate.

In the meantime, what you get is a ridiculous portrait of a bunch of "we just want to put people in jail" semi-clueless ICE agents (they repeatedly use Alexa as their judge of what's popular -- can no one buy them a subscription to a decent online monitoring service?) who don't even recognize the First Amendment implications of seizing sites with tons of non-infringing content on it, and who seem to be totally in awe of big entertainment companies and the myths they tell. The whole thing would be amusing if it didn't involve serious Constitutional questions and if people weren't ending up in jail.

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Filed Under: dhs, domain seizures, free speech, ice, operation in our sites, william ross
Companies: ninjavideo

168 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:28am

Mike, he wants to put people in jail. he doesn't JUST want to put people in jail. That is your opinion, not the officers statement.

You are really sneaky with the weasel wording, aren't you?
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The Devil's Coachman (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:28am

Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
Statements such as he made show what a gigantic fascist POS he is, and he should immediately be stripped of his authority and terminated.
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The Devil's Coachman (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:29am

Re:
And you?
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anonymous, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:38am

Special Agent Ross. �I want to put people in jail.�

just about says it all, really, doesn't it. what an absolute prick!
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:40am

Re:
Mike, he wants to put people in jail

Then he should not have any power.

Jail is not an end, it is a means. His goal should be to reduce crime and protect society - jail is just one weapon on that battle. If he simply considers "filling jails" to be his goal or even part of his goal, then I for one think he is a very bad person.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:43am

Re: Re:
He is a law enforcement officer. His job starts when the law is broken, and as a result, he wants to put people in jail. He wants to make sure that the law breakers are brought to justice.

You guys are busy reading way too much into a simple statement.

"I want a coffee" doesn't mean I only want coffee, and that I cannot have anything but coffee, and that I will have coffee even if it is cold and icky.

You guys really just need to grow up.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:43am

Re: Re:
Seems like you have some sort axe to grind with law enforcement outside this specific issue.

I'm curious, do you have a police record?
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:46am

Re: Re: Re:
I have to agree. Crime has not risen substantially during this recession in large part due to the criminal elements in our society already being locked up.

Normally, these would be the first to become unemployed and unemployable, and the first to start breaking the law when times are tough.

It makes sense to fill our jails to capacity with as many criminals as possible. Then if we run out of room, we can always let certain ones out on parole.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:46am

Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
Our whole government has turned into a state of utter failure. I have lost a lot of respect for law enforcement over the years. They fail to enact policies that reduce actual crime with victims and they waste a ton of resources going after victimless criminals because it's much easier.

When I was little I got my bike stolen once. I had friends who have also got their bikes stolen on various different occasions as well. Every time we complained to the police department, they pretty much did nothing and we never got our bikes back. These are crimes with victims. These are the things police should be going after. But, no, they're too busy going after victimless criminals like drug dealers and enforcing questionable laws that create more violence through the creation of drug cartels.

I have a friend who had his $1000 or so laptop stolen. He complained to the police department. They never got back to him. He went back to follow up on the status of his laptop and he told me they pretty much ignored him and that the person he spoke to the first time avoided him and he couldn't even talk to him. These are the sorts of crimes I want police departments to put more resources into investigating, crimes with actual victims, instead of wasting it on victimless crimes.

But, in this day and age, we've reached the point where if something gets stolen we can practically take for granted that we won't ever get it back. The police don't seem to care and law enforcement is too busy giving traffic tickets and frivolous parking tickets for minor offenses. They're too busy going after victimless criminals because it's much easier than going after real criminals with victims. They're not doing us any favors. It's a sad waste of resources.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:48am

Coming soon to a theater near you.... Special Agent Ross stars in 'You're going to Jail!"
Lets give him some credit here, he's just getting 'guidance' from the industry on what he will need to do when he appears in the next 'made for TV' movie they promised him...
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Modplan (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:48am

I'm not sure that this is really an accurate explanation of the DMCA issue, seeing as the users uploaded the content... that's the same thing with YouTube and Veoh, both of which have been declared legal under the DMCA. As long as they followed the safe harbor provisions, the fact that users upload shouldn't have an impact. There very likely may have been issues of secondary liability if the site encouraged people to infringe -- but that's a separate issue, and one that again should have been an issue for civil copyright law, rather than criminal.

I think you misinterpreted what was written. He's saying that Ninjavideo itself had uploaders putting up the content for them - not simply users with little or no association with them as with Youtube or Veoh.
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Aerilus, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:50am

I don't understand. homeland security=securing the homeland, ice= immigration and customs enforcement. I don't see what either has to do with hyperlinks. now if it were a Mexican terrorist carrying a bomb across the border along with an iPod full of downloaded mp3s then yes I can see where that would be relevant we should definitely confiscate that iPod before letting him/her in.
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Aerilus, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:50am

I don't understand. homeland security=securing the homeland, ice= immigration and customs enforcement. I don't see what either has to do with hyperlinks. now if it were a Mexican terrorist carrying a bomb across the border along with an iPod full of downloaded mp3s then yes I can see where that would be relevant we should definitely confiscate that iPod before letting him/her in.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: Re:
He is a law enforcement officer. His job is to protect and serve the public. If that requires putting dangerous people in prison, that is fine. But if putting people in jail is more a priority over protecting and serving the public, he is not the kind of person that should carry a badge.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: Re:
You guys really just need to grow up.

Exactly. A cop who doesn't want to put the criminals in jail is probably not a good cop. That's what cops do.

This is just more pirate apology from Capt. Mike of the U.S.S. Techdirt. Yarrrr!
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:50am

Re: Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
in this day and age, can we be sure that the police/government aren't the ones who stole the item in the first place?

I mean they are stealing our rights and civil liberties, what makes you think they wouldn't stoop to taking our property and 'intellectual pooperty' as well?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:51am

Re: Re:
... I for one think he is a very bad person.

What do you think about this guy? This is a sworn officer lying in court, with the knowledge and assistance of presecutors. (New York Post, Dec 20, 2011):

[Prosecutors] didn�t say arresting Officer Ronald Martiny had admitted to the prosecution that his description of the alleged escape wasn�t true, that there was no fence.

Not only did prosecutors fail to mention the �mistake� to the defense, but when Martiny took the stand, he repeated the lie.

As Davis� lawyer, Douglas Rankin, cross-examined Martiny, the cop �corrected� his testimony to say Davis fled between two buildings.

Nothing particularly special about Officer Ronald Martiny or his episode of lying in court. Just happens to be in recent news. But there are similar cases reported almost every day.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:52am

Re: Re: Re:
Believe what you want. I for one am well aware that the justice system, and the prison system, have TONNES of problems and are rife with abuse. I see jail and other demonstrably ineffective forms of rehabilitation as, at best, necessary evils. And I do not have a high opinion of anyone who relishes sending someone there, whether it's their job or not.

You act like there's no other view he could take, but that is not at all true. It may surprise you to learn that there are law enforcement officers who don't want to put people in jail unless they truly have to. There are cops and judges and others all along the chain that seek alternate, superior solutions whenever they are possible - because they recognize that cramming more people into overstuffed jails doesn't solve any problem beyond the immediate one of a dangerous person being on the street. They recognize that jail frequently converts minor criminals - people who still have a chance to correct their behaviour and live a positive life - into serious criminals... so in fact jail frequently makes society worse off.

Those are the law enforcement officers and justice officials who I respect. And none of them would ever say the words "I want to put people in jail". So sorry, he doesn't just get a free pass because it's part of his job.
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PrometheeFeu (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:53am

It should be possible for taxpayers to withhold taxes from individual government employees or departments. Given the grief ICE and the DHS in general has caused me personally over the years for no good reason, I find it perverted that I have to keep paying their salary. I want a box on my taxes that says: "Divert my taxes that would be spent on the DHS to ______" where I could fill in a charity or other public interest group.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Exactly. A cop who doesn't want to put the criminals in jail is probably not a good cop. That's what cops do.

Whenever you get all high on some proclamation or another that you think is bulletproof, you just expose the eerily fascist leanings that seem to sit at the heart of your philosophy. Is that what law school does to people?
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John Doe, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
I have a friend who had his $1000 or so laptop stolen. He complained to the police department. They never got back to him. He went back to follow up on the status of his laptop and he told me they pretty much ignored him and that the person he spoke to the first time avoided him and he couldn't even talk to him.

He should have told the cops it had movies and music on the laptop and ICE would have gotten right on it.
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Hephaestus (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:55am

"He's not talking about fairness or justice or upholding the law. He just wants to "put people in jail." People like that shouldn't have jobs in power."

That is exactly the sort of person you want in a position of power ... In an totalitarian police state. One who will instill fear, oppress people, do everything he can to suppress free speech, be a loyal party man, and not care about peoples inalienable rights.
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E. Zachary Knight (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
A cop that only wants to put people in jail is not a good cop. His goal should be to protect and serve the public.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 9:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think you missed some classes.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Is that what law school does to people?

Not the good ones. But the third/fourth tier ones that no one's heard of churn out people like that.
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Jake, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:00am

If this fuckwit is even remotely representative of ICE agents, I have no hesitation in advising anyone who has any reason to expect a raid by them to go on the run, or if necessary resist arrest. This sort of gung-ho, conviction at any price attitude is what leads law-enforcement officials to start playing fast and loose with the rules in order to gain evidence, or even start to "gild the lily" in cases where they're certain they have the right person by manufacturing the evidence out of whole cloth.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Exactly. A cop who doesn't want to put the criminals in jail is probably not a good cop. That's what cops do.

That's incredibly misguided to absolutely wrong. While jail is a tool of law enforcement it is not "what cops do." That's like saying "a copy who doesn't want to shoot people is probably not a good cop. That's what cops do."

No one is saying that he shouldn't, as law enforcement, be able to put someone in jail as a tool of serving the public good. But his statement suggests he sees that as an end in and of itself.

Of course, it doesn't surprise me that you can't figure out the difference between ends and means -- since you still make the same mistake with copyright. The ends of copyright is to benefit the public (same with law enforcement). The means is to provide a monopoly for artists. You, however, seem to insist that the means are the ends in both cases.
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Mike C. (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
You know, there's a great line in a movie that's based on a short story by a rather well know horror novelist, but out of fear of trampling some lawyers rights, I won't quote it exactly.

It is, in essense, something about having to go to jail to learn to be a criminal...

/Just seemed appropriate here.
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PrometheeFeu (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re:
"His job starts when the law is broken"

Actually that is false. His job stops when there is a suspicion of the law being broken. In other words, when his job starts, he doesn't know for sure whether the law was broken and even if it was, it could be broken such that the person in question does not deserve a jail sentence. Also, his job is to bring evidence to justice. It is then the job of the justice system to put people in jail. His statement implies that his job is to put people in jail regardless of their guilt. That's a very narrow and stupid reading of his duty.
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re:
He is a law enforcement officer. His job starts when the law is broken, and as a result, he wants to put people in jail. He wants to make sure that the law breakers are brought to justice.

You guys are busy reading way too much into a simple statement.

Any law enforcement officer that states the he "wants to put people in jail" will do exactly that. If his desire is to see people locked away, he'll find ways of making sure this happens. And if citizens won't cooperate by being unlawful, well, that's when minor infractions get randomly enforces, wiretap laws get abused and peaceable citizens get charged with ambiguous charges like "obstruction" or "resisting arrest."

When someone tries to point out that throwing people in jail doesn't seem like an effective or even appropriate response to the "crime," an answer like his shows that he doesn't feel like he's doing his job unless people are getting imprisoned, rendering any other objections moot.

"I want a coffee" doesn't mean I only want coffee, and that I cannot have anything but coffee, and that I will have coffee even if it is cold and icky.

If someone says "I want to set some buildings on fire," we don't start wondering whether or not they run an animal shelter or volunteer at the soup kitchen during their downtime. We're more concerned with what they stated they want to do, rather than consider that this is just a small part of their overall existence. We don't assume that arson is the ONLY thing this person is interested in, but the fact they've stated this desire is alarming enough.
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Someantimalwareguy (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:04am

Re: Re: Re:
Do you?
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Mike C. (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
To me, this whole conversation is off target because, technically, most "cops" CAN'T put someone in jail. They can arrest them, put them in a temporary holding cell, but only a judge can sentence them to extended confinement.

/Just sayin'
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
But the third/fourth tier ones that no one's heard of churn out people like that.

Cooley's going to have your ass for that statement.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
he said nothing about criminals

he said he wants to put _people_ in jail. cops don't put people in jail.

now maybe he meant "criminals", but somehow i doubt it
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:06am

"I'm not sure that this is really an accurate explanation of the DMCA issue, seeing as the users uploaded the content... that's the same thing with YouTube and Veoh, both of which have been declared legal under the DMCA."

In Ninjavideos case the videos were uploaded by the admin, not users (or possibly users as well but definitely by site admin)
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A Guy (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow, an advocate of the police state. We have so many laws that anyone could be locked up given a vindictive or self righteous enough law enforcement officer, including yourself.

The reason that crime is down is largely due to unemployment benefits being extended. The social safety net caught those laid off, so they don't have to resort to crime. If the social safety net had caught many of those in prison, we wouldn't have to deprive them of their basic rights.

"It makes sense to fill our jails to capacity with as many criminals as possible. Then if we run out of room, we can always let certain ones out on parole."

We should start with people like you, or only lock up the worst of the worst to begin with.

I found these two videos very educational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJrQBwJp qk
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bjupton (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I've sent boys younger than you to the gas chamber. Didn't want to do it. I felt I owed it to them.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:14am

Re:
"As long as they followed the safe harbor provisions, the fact that users upload shouldn't have an impact. There very likely may have been issues of secondary liability if the site encouraged people to infringe"

" I still don't see where the site's operators could have possibly been liable for criminal copyright infringement,"

see above

and quote from article:

"Every night on Skype, she set lineups and coordinated assignments for a team of uploaders, located as far away as Scotland and Australia, who hunted the Web for the highest-quality digital files."
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Someantimalwareguy (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
So your solution is to just put people in jail; jails that are already so overcrowded that many simply get put back onto the streets a few days after getting there because there is no more room to house them?

The penal system is not the answer to everything as it only hardens those incarcerated, makes it impossible for them to find jobs after serving out their debt to society, and you actually try to equate the fact that they are unemployable while trying to survive as a reason to simply put them back into jail on the tax payers dime?

The "get tough" wave that has been going on for over 30 years now is not working and only creating a sub-culture who's only recourse for survival is more criminality.

What a waste of effort, money, and people... It's sad that your world is so black and white. try to add some color to your world view and then see how destructive this has been and will only get worse as time passes without real reform.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:18am

Re: Re: Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
They do; look up criminal (or civil) asset forfeiture
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not the good ones. But the third/fourth tier ones that no one's heard of churn out people like that.

Ha! You're so desperate to "get" me that you've resorted to this kind of attack. Classic awesomeness, Mike. Classic. Thanks for the giggles.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And how do cops do that? By arresting criminals. You guys really do need to grow up.
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Loki, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:20am

Re:
Well, if he had said criminals your argument might have a bit more merit.

But he didn't say criminals, he said people. One thing I have learned over the years is that a person's choice of words can often say a lot more than they intended. From my experience, someone more concerned with serving and protecting would have been more likely to say criminal.

Of course you could argue that he really meant criminals, and his statement was just a slip of the tongue, but, that too would be an opinion, not the official statement.

So the question of who is the one being sneaky with the weasel wording also comes down to a matter of opinion.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:22am

Re:
If that is the case, the user/admin should be prosecuted, but the site would still be as legal as YouTube.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Alleged criminals! They arrest ALLEGED criminals.

No wonder you're having problems with all this.
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bshock, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:28am

You are not a "law enforcement officer," Agent Ross. You are merely a pig.
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:29am

Re: Re:
The admin are the people who started and ran the site. They are the site and the people that went to jail. This isn't like youtube where 3rd parties are uploading the videos, this is the site founder and staff uploading (and probably recording, judging by their turnaround speed) the content.

If youtubes founder, board of directors, ceo and cfo were uploading infringing content and paying others to hunt down and upload more they would not be legal.
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The Logician (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:30am

Logically, the only offenders that should be placed in incarceration are violent ones. All others can be addressed with alternative means of treatment, such as rehabilitation centers, community service, fines, and other methods. The government's irrational fixation with jail is in clear opposition to the public good.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
And again, he didn't say criminal, he said people. Without a greater context with which to judge this person's words, that one sentence alone is very questionable.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:32am

Re:
i like your gimmick better than the average_joe's
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Snore. Cops shoot people when it's warranted, and they put people in jail when it's warranted. That's what they do. That's the means, not the end. If a cop won't shoot people or arrest them, then that cop is probably not good at his job. It seems obvious to me that the cop is saying he wants to put people in jail (the means) so that he can serve the public good (the ends). Just because he didn't explicitly spell that out is no reason to jump to the ridiculous conclusion (as you have) that this person shouldn't even be a cop. God, you're insufferably boring with this stuff.

Why in the world would you jump to the faith-based assumption that this cop only wants to put people in jail as an end unto itself and that this cop can't possibly view his job as being a means to an end? There is no reason to think that. People that hate authority and hate the government--people exactly like you and all of your pirate friends that you spend day in and day out defending--tend to jump to these sorts of ridiculous conclusions, unfortunately. I can't help you there...

As far as the copyright thing goes, I understand the ends-means distinction that you are arguing. I think the better view is that it's a quid pro quo. I can find Supreme Court language and law review articles that support this point of view. What's the point? We see it differently. Big deal.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, they are alleged criminals. Duh. Obviously if the officer is arresting them, there is a warrant or probable cause to make the arrest.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
obviously if you are arrested, you are a criminal.

everyone knows this
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And how do cops do that? By arresting criminals.

No, they do it in a whole bunch of different ways. By acting as a deterrent, by dispersing crowds, by monitoring public gatherings, by issuing tickets, through extensive social outreach programs that police departments run... The fact that you see their only job as arresting criminals is telling, Joe.
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TDR, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:36am

In answer to idiocy such as that shown by officers like this and the state our country has been devolving into (as well as all the crap the MAFIAA is trying pull), I think Twisted Sister's classic words are relevant here:

We're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

We've got the right to choose it
There ain't no way we'll lose it
This is our life, this is our song

We'll fight the powers that be just
Don't pick our destiny 'cause
You don't know us, you don't belong

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh you're so condescending
Your gall is never ending
We don't want nothin', not a thing from you

Your life is trite and jaded
Boring and confiscated
If that's your best, your best won't do

Oh Oh

We're right (yeah)
We're free (yeah)
We'll fight (yeah)
You'll see (yeah)

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

No way

Oh Oh

We're right (yeah)
We're free (yeah)
We'll fight (yeah)
You'll see (yeah)

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Just you try and make us
We're not gonna take it
Come on!

No, we ain't gonna take it
You're all worthless and weak
We're not gonna take it anymore

Now drop and give me twenty
We're not gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

We've got the right to choose it
There ain't no way we'll lose it
This is our life, this is our song

We'll fight the powers that be just
Don't pick our destiny 'cause
You don't know us, you don't belong

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh you're so condescending
Your gall is never ending
We don't want nothin', not a thing from you

Your life is trite and jaded
Boring and confiscated
If that's your best, your best won't do

Oh Oh

We're right (yeah)
We're free (yeah)
We'll fight (yeah)
You'll see (yeah)

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

No way

Oh Oh

We're right (yeah)
We're free (yeah)
We'll fight (yeah)
You'll see (yeah)

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Oh we're not gonna take it
No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh we're not gonna take it anymore

Just you try and make us
We're not gonna take it
Come on!

No, we ain't gonna take it
You're all worthless and weak
We're not gonna take it anymore

Now drop and give me twenty
We're not gonna take it
A pledge pin
On your uniform

No, we ain't gonna take it
Oh you and your uniform
We're not gonna take it anymore
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:38am

Re: Re: Re:
Yes, but YouTube, the company is more then just the people who run it. Hell, now its even considered a person. You could throw the CEO, founders, hell everyone that works in management, in jail. That would not make the site itself illegal, assuming they continue to respond to DMCA notices.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2010/12/17/the-video-the-shooting-of-john-t-williams

Wh at probable cause did the police officer have to shoot this man. He was holding a three-inch blade, which is legal. He was minding his own business, which is legal.

But he had to die anyway, right?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:40am

Give me six lines written by the most honorable of men, and I will find an excuse in them to hang him.
- Cardinal Richeleiu
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
How bleak is your life that you spend all your time arguing on a site that you find "insufferably boring"?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
... they recognize that cramming more people into overstuffed jails doesn't solve any problem beyond the immediate one of a dangerous person being on the street.

That and the problem of private prison contractors' pockets being a bit too empty.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, and Mike, I'll add this. You said: "As long as they followed the safe harbor provisions, the fact that users upload shouldn't have an impact." The facts are that they pleaded guilty to conspiracy, and some of the co-conspirators were the ones uploading the videos to NinjaVideo. So there is no safe harbor.

But you probably knew that, right? I mean, you wouldn't lie and manipulate would you? No, not Mike. He's such a stand up guy. LMAO! What a joke. You couldn't be honest if your life depended on it.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
... Do me a favor. NEVER apply for a position of power.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
... Do me a favor. NEVER apply for a position of power.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
There's a lawyer joke in there, somewhere.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:47am

Re:
what's good for the goose..

anything you say can and will be used against you

idiot cop should have kept his mouth shut.
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A Guy (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Cops shoot people when it's warranted, and they put people in jail when it's warranted. "

Another one of my favorite blogs, freakonomics, pointed me to this link.

http://www.theagitator.com/google/?cx=partner-pub-9453823870796023%3Af87ir1gxdn6&cof=FO RID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Isolated+Incident&sa=Search&siteurl=www.theagitator.com%2F

I may have to start looking over theagitator too.
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Rick, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:49am

hah
I would say you are the one weasel wording. Officer did not talk about upholding the constitution (remember that little tidbit they call taking the oath that all law enforcement and government officials take?).

His job is not to put people in jail, his job is to uphold, protect and defend the constitution and then the law. His other job is to serve the people.

In this case all he is doing is serving corporate interests, going against the people and trashing the constitution.

The author's assessment is correct, you sir are a fool and need to start thinking a bit.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It obviously worked. Shame you can't see that for yourself.
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Ben (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:53am

Re: Ninja Uploaders
I don't think the uploaders' association to Ninja is meaningful; does the DMCA prohibit employees from uploading to their company's site?

As long as the links/content are not the subject of previous takedown notices (ie that Ninja has no knowledge that that particular content is infringing), the uploaders should not be constrained. It is not the duty of Ninja uploaders (or employees of YouTube) to determine what is infringing or not; as techdirt has covered repeatedly and which was recently recognized by the court in Veoh v. UMG, only the rightsholder has the specific information required to determine if any particular content is infringing.

In sum, I think only the first uploader - the person responsible for converting from physical media/tv to internet - can be (should be) held responsible for copyright infringement.
There is a meaningful distinction if the uploaders recorded tv episodes and uploaded them, but not if they merely repost. In this respect, the uploaders are more similar to a search engine - finding content and making it accessible to the interested user - than first uploaders.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:53am

Re:
You're relying on a bunch of unstated premises there, buddy. For the record, I agree with your conclusion, but I don't think you should throw out terms like "logically" when you're not even stating the premises that your inferences rely on.
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Ben (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:55am

Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
I don't think the uploaders' association to Ninja is meaningful; does the DMCA prohibit employees from uploading to their company's site?

As long as the links/content are not the subject of previous takedown notices (ie that Ninja has no knowledge that that particular content is infringing), the uploaders should not be constrained. It is not the duty of Ninja uploaders (or employees of YouTube) to determine what is infringing or not; as techdirt has covered repeatedly and which was recently recognized by the court in Veoh v. UMG, only the rightsholder has the specific information required to determine if any particular content is infringing.

In sum, I think only the first uploader - the person responsible for converting from physical media/tv to internet - can be (should be) held responsible for copyright infringement.
There is a meaningful distinction if the uploaders recorded tv episodes and uploaded them, but not if they merely repost. In this respect, the uploaders are more similar to a search engine - finding content and making it accessible to the interested user - than first uploaders.
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"That would not make the site itself illegal, assuming they continue to respond to DMCA notices."

I'm not sure I agree with that. Once the corporation starts instructing employees to infringe I'm pretty sure all safe harbors get blown away. But its beside the point.

The people arrested from ninjavideo were pretty clearly guilty of criminal copyright infringement. Mike seems to think they were not responsible for the uploading, they were and I was just trying to clear that up.

How much they actually profited, whether the punishment fits the crime ect ect I don't really want to get into. Just clearing up an inaccuracy.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
How bleak is your life that you spend all your time arguing on a site that you find "insufferably boring"?

Oh, you misunderstand. Pointing out what an incredible tool Mike Masnick is is fun for me.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:00am

Re: Re:
His style is far superior to joe's trashy gimmick.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, you misunderstand. Pointing out what an incredible tool Mike Masnick is is fun for me.

Yeah, sometimes I masturbate when I'm bored too.
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
"It is not the duty of Ninja uploaders (or employees of YouTube) to determine what is infringing or not; as techdirt has covered repeatedly and which was recently recognized by the court in Veoh v. UMG, only the rightsholder has the specific information required to determine if any particular content is infringing."

I agree its not their duty to determine if user submitted content is infringing but they had to be aware they content they were uploading was infringing. When a user submits something the staff doesn't know if they work for or, are, or have contracts with the content owner. However since the Ninjavideo staff were the uploaders they know they do not have the rights to post TV and Movies ect. The only way they could not know posting a movie they had no been given permission to post is if they were completely oblivious to copyright law, and I don't think pleading ignorance would have helped them.

It is not a matter of not being able to determine if content others submitted is infringing, it is a matter of purposely uploading content they knew they did not have the rights to. They didn't link to it or embed it they uploaded it to their own site knowing their site didn't have the right to host it.

You can not claim that since they downloaded it from elsewhere and reuploaded it they thought the original poster had the right to upload it because it doesn't matter. If they were linking to content that defense could work, but they reuploaded it. It would be the difference between me linking to NBCs videos page and capturing NBCs stream and reuploading it, then hosting the reuploaded video on my site.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
People that hate authority and hate the government--people exactly like you and all of your pirate friends that you spend day in and day out defending--tend to jump to these sorts of ridiculous conclusions, unfortunately.

I don't "hate" government or authority, and I'm not a "pirate" nor do I have "pirate friends."

For someone writing a comment about jumping to conclusions, you might want to try NOT JUMPING to a whole bunch of them. Especially when pretty much every conclusion you jump to is totally wrong.
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Some Other Guy, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ouch...that kinda hurts man.
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The Logician, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Finding enjoyment in the ridicule of another (outside of mutual jesting) is a questionable practice at best, and borderline unethical. Ethics and law are not always in concert, AJ. That is a concept with which you do not appear to be familiar. Answer me this question, yes or no, with no diversion or equivocation: do you accept that some laws can be unjust and unethical?
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:12am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Ha! You're so desperate to "get" me that you've resorted to this kind of attack.

Not an attack. Just pointing out some basic facts that seemed relevant to the conversation.

I guess if you're sensitive about the type of law school you attend, you might see that as an attack. But that's really an issue for you to deal with.
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The Logician (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
This comment in response to AJ was made my me, I merely neglected to sign in first.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The facts are that they pleaded guilty to conspiracy, and some of the co-conspirators were the ones uploading the videos to NinjaVideo. So there is no safe harbor.

They plead guilty after being put in a position where they had little other choice.

But, indeed, the fact that they did some uploads themselves would suggest that they were guilty of something. My point was merely to respond to the claim in the article that because users uploaded they had no DMCA protections.

In fact, I did point out in the very next sentence that they could be guilty of other things.

If you weren't so intellectually dishonest, you would have at least admitted that.

But you probably knew that, right? I mean, you wouldn't lie and manipulate would you? No, not Mike. He's such a stand up guy. LMAO! What a joke. You couldn't be honest if your life depended on it.

AJ: grow up. You're the one who misquoted me, ignored what I said, and pretended I implied something otherwise. You have yet to show me being dishonest, and I go to great lengths to be absolutely honest. What good would it do me to be dishonest. I leave my comments open so that anyone can discuss these things, and if I make a mistake I get called on it. If I was so desperate to be dishonest, as you claim, I wouldn't have open comments at all.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
LMAO! God, you're slimy. Obviously you were trying to put me down because of the school I attend. That just makes you look sad, Mike. I'm proud of the school I attend. And everyone can see what a desperate sack of shit you are for even going there.

And what law school did you go to? Blogger University School of Law? Your cutting-edge and in-depth legal analysis says it all: http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111212/04045017044/should-online-newspapers-comments-be-protected -journalism-shield-laws.shtml#c193

LMAO @ you and your idiotic "legal analysis," Mike.
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:19am

Re: Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
"In sum, I think only the first uploader - the person responsible for converting from physical media/tv to internet - can be (should be) held responsible for copyright infringement. There is a meaningful distinction if the uploaders recorded tv episodes and uploaded them, but not if they merely repost. In this respect, the uploaders are more similar to a search engine - finding content and making it accessible to the interested user - than first uploaders."

Hosting content you know is infringing is also illegal not just uploading the content. Youtube et.al. are legal because they do not know everything the host, they just have to respond when someone points out they are hosting something illegal. In that case the uploader is the one breaking the law, whether civil or criminal.

Ninjavideo was hosting content they knew they didn't have the rights to, they knew they didn't have the rights because they uploaded it not a 3rd party. They can not claim ignorance to the legality of the content.

I'm sure the Wolverine guy wishes the person who originally stole the content was the only one liable but anyone who hosts(distributes) the content is also liable, DCMA just protects providers from content supplied by 3rd parties.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Really? You want me to explain what probable cause some guy I never heard of in a case I know nothing about had? Snorezville.
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average_joe (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your posts tell a different story, Mike. Do you really think no one can tell?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:21am

Re: Re: Re:
Then he is a stupid law enforcement agent, putting people in jail is the last resort or it should be the last resort.

Not allowing the law to be broke is the goal and that can be accomplished in several other ways which the least effective is putting people in jail after the fact.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:22am

Re: Re: Re:
About growing up, why don't you grow up first and learn how the real world works instead of your fantasy land.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
They've done a lot better than an arrogant blowhard who doesn't understand the law of unintended consequences.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:27am

Re: Re:
Whenever i read The Logician's posts, its always with the voice of Spock in my head.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well in China only criminals are executed.
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Planespotter (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:30am

Re: Re: Re:
Is it a crime to have a police record? Would you not elect a President if he had a police record? what about a Congressman or Senator?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I guess this comes down to how we draw the line between a corporation and it's employees. We don't hold CEO's of large banking corporations responsible for what it employees do, even if it causes the collapse of the largest economies in the world. The few times that CEO's do get sent to jail for instructing illegal behavior of there employees, the corporations are usually allowed to live on, with just a change of management, or at most, its assets are sold to another institution that is allowed to continue to operate. In this case, the website is one of those assets that did nothing illegal, even if its owners did.

(btw, I'm the same AC as the two other posts in this thread, my network likes to give me new IPs each time I post...)
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You can't.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:36am

I'm not sure that this is really an accurate explanation of the DMCA issue, seeing as the users uploaded the content... that's the same thing with YouTube and Veoh, both of which have been declared legal under the DMCA.

This is a really huge distinction, and Mike, I think you (especially) would be attentive to it. Assuming the allegations against NV are true (and they appear to be based on what the operators themselves said and the articel you link to, but you may disagree), the operators of NV were not only operating the site, but also were, themselves, uploading much of the infringing content. And that's not what the DMCA safe harbor was meant to cover. Youtube and Veoh are not like this. The recent Veoh opinion turned on the (important!) fact that Veoh did not have knowledge about specific infringements, and that merely knowing that some users were uploading infringing content sometimes was not enough to charge Veoh with specific knowledge (so the safe harbors still applied to them). With NV, not only did the operators apepar to have specific knowledge about infringing content, but they also appear to have uploaded it themselves. Mike, you often suggest (and rightly so, I think) that the appropriate parties to be held responsible for uploading infringing content are the users who put it there, rather than the operators of sites like Youtube and Veoh. In the case against NV, that seems to be what's happened. NV's operators sppear to have had specific knowledge about infringement and so would not fall within the DMCA safe harbors, but even if the safe harbors applied to them as operators, the oeprators were also the very same users who uploaded the material in first place.

Is your point that it's OK to go after Ninja Video's operators, but not to go after the site itself?
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Richard (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:40am

Re: Re: Re:
He is a law enforcement officer. His job starts when the law is broken

NO NO NO NO That is TOTALLY WRONG.
His job is to prevent crime not just to pursue criminals after the fact.
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hothmonster, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:42am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It would certainly be an interesting legal battle, but since youtube relies heavily on the fact that they do not know content is infringing because users post it, having meetings telling employees to host infringing content would certainly fuck that all up. If liability would fall on the site or the management I can not say, and would certainly rely on a whole bunch of factors and you get into the whole "dedicated to infringement" issue. [I keep thinking about the whole shipping coke in Delorians thing but I just hate car analogies :( ]

Banks are different then other companies because when the board and gets thrown out for legal issues the FDIC comes in and takes over and then sets up new management but I understand your point. Somewhere there is a line between people within a corporation committing crimes and a corporation being criminal. I think a lot of that has to do with who profits the people or the corp. But idk.

I know how much Viacom tried to make out of an email between youtube management that basically said "there has to be infringing material on here right?" I can only imagine their glee if they found "you uploaded all the infringing material I asked for right?".

But back to the story, I don't think NV was incorporated was it?
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Richard (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And how do cops do that? By arresting criminals. You guys really do need to grow up.

No - arresting criminals is a last resort after all else has failed. The primary mechanism for protecting the public is crime prevention. Arresting criminals is a sign that you have failed in you primary task.

It is you that has a child's view of crime.
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Ben (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
For any random piece of content, the viewer does not absolutely know whether its existence online is authorized by the rightsholder or not. I agree that the status of most free online streams/tv/movies/music as not authorized is apparent to the majority of viewers, but the viewer does not have actual knowledge, only the suspicion. The difference is that someone who buys a cd/dvd agrees, by that action, to not upload it. Such an agreement does not transfer online.

Let me reduce the distinction: if some site says, "Let's collect and host every .mp3 file we can find, and freely offer these to any visitor." If the site responds to DMCA notices, this site should be perfectly legal, regardless of the site's reasonable suspicion that some of the mp3 files contain copyrighted music. Ninja certainly chose a more editorial role than this, but I think their case reduces to my example.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
They missed a few criminals. There are a bunch of them hanging around certain buildings in Washington, and carry amorphous titles like Senator and Congressman.

Criminal???? Yes. It appears that the difference between what one says during the campaign and how they then behave in office is a pretty good example of fraud.
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Arsonist Jim, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Leave me out of this.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
"" If the site responds to DMCA notices, this site should be perfectly legal, regardless of the site's reasonable suspicion that some of the mp3 files contain copyrighted music. "

They would not be legal. They can not host something without express permission. Sites that host user submitted content get the safe harbor protection of the DCMA. A site that just uploaded all kinds of copyrighted content without permission to distribute it would be illegal.

You are correct that the viewer can not know if something was uploaded legally or not, even the downloader can not know if the file he is downloading is illegal. Only the content owner can know if the site distributing/hosting it can legally do so. Even linking to the video is ok (or should be, its kind of up in the air right now) But hosting or uploading is the same as distributing. You can not distribute copyrighted material without the express right to do so.

If I was given express permission to host "Movie" for free download and you downloaded it and then reuploaded it your website so people could download it from your website what you just did would be illegal. If you linked to it you would be ok, if you embeded it you would be ok, if you uploaded it to youtube then youtube would be ok, but you can not distribute something you do not have rights to. It would be the same as me buying a movie(physical or digital copy), then burning it to DVD then giving away free/sell copies (it would be illegal).
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ninja Uploaders
I notice a lot of "should not be illegal" type language in your post and a lot of the time I agree with you, but unfortunately copyright law is not exactly how it "should" be imo and apparently yours.
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Franklin G Ryzzo (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow... just wow

It makes sense to fill our jails to capacity with as many criminals as possible. Then if we run out of room, we can always let certain ones out on parole.

A lot of trolls have said a lot of stupid things in the comments here on Techdirt, but your comment is one of the most genuinely and willfully ignorant I have ever seen. At least that's something to be proud of...
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Atkray (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Oh, you misunderstand. Pointing out what an incredible tool Mike Masnick is is fun for me."

OK, when are you going to do this?
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known coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:30pm

ICE's function
�I am a law-enforcement officer,� says Special Agent Ross. �I want to put people in jail.�

That, alone, is a pretty ridiculous and scary quote when you think about it. He's not talking about fairness or justice or upholding the law. He just wants to "put people in jail." People like that shouldn't have jobs in power.

Mike, this is Immigration and Custom's Enforcement, He is a enforcement officer, it is his job to put people in jail. He wants to do a good job. You can't blame him.

The question should be; Why are these matters being handled by ICE in the first place?
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Franklin G Ryzzo (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, cops protect and serve by arresting suspected criminals. They build a case and gather evidence and then turn the suspect and the evidence over to a prosecutor. A cop who "wants to put people in jail" is not a good cop. A cop who wants to protect the public by identifying potential threats to it and trying to prove those threats are real is a good cop. If you "want to put people in jail" you should become a prosecutor. And if putting people in jail ever becomes more important than ensuring they receive a fair trial, then you wouldn't be a good one of those either.

The ICE director's statement was poorly made and makes him look like someone who doesn't care about justice and is on a power trip. Defending that statement like this is pretty pathetic.
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Griff, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I thought cops put people in court and judges / juries put people in jail.

Of have I misunderstood the legal system ?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:33pm

Re: Re: Re:
INFRINGMENT ^
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Larry, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Nope. It's the courts job to determine if someone is a criminal and to put them in jail.

Cops are just the front end tool. They arrest and turnover info to prosecutors to determine charges.

Cops can arrest me, they can detain me in a "jail" but they cannot imprison me
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known coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:39pm

Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
When special agent ross comes you your house, beats the crap out of you, because your gay, drags your ass to a concentration camp where you are further beaten until you die. Then i will agree with you he is a nazi.

until then, leave the nazi's out of it.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 12:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And that makes you a liar also. You're such a sociopath that you actually believe you're fooling people with your blatant bullshit.

It's been suggested before that you go see a mental health professional- take the advice.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
obviously not.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Where there's smoke there's fire.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:05pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Jails are not 'overcrowded' everywhere. One solution could be a system whereby states traded jail space on a sort of exchange or market.

That way states like Utah or Wyoming could 'sell' jail space to places like California.

Many criminals want to be in jail after they get out because at least in jail they get a square meal three times a day and free medical care. Also, they aren't subject to the temptations to commit crimes that they are outside of prison.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:15pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
And that right there, in a nutshell, is why you really don't understand what's going on. Because you don't want to know.
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The Logician (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:15pm

You have not yet answered my question, AJ. Do you accept that some laws can be unjust and unethical? Yes or no, with no diversion, evasion, or equivocation. A failure to answer merely indicates you do not accept this premise.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
thanks mike!

I completely agree. I for one want more people in jail where they can't hurt others or themselves.

Furthermore, jail can be an end in itself. For instance, if I place a murderer in jail, then I have stopped that murderer from murdering have I not. The amount of murders stopped is directly proportional to the amount of time a murder is in jail, with death being the point of diminishing return.

In the same way, the greater the quantity of copyright infringers in jail multiplied by the amount of time served will be directly proportional to the amount of pirated material available.
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Richard (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Snore. Cops shoot people when it's warranted, and they put people in jail when it's warranted. That's what they do.

It would seem that your view of law enforcement is derived from fiction - not from real life.

In real life most cops never shoot anyone in their entire careers. If it were otherwise then we would be living in a very unpleasant world indeed.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:40pm

I can't believe with our US jails so overcrowded that they let violent offenders out early that overcrowding them even more with people whom have downloaded music and movies just seems ludicrous. Our founding fathers would have us revolt if they were here.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:40pm

Re:
What's the harm in having a few innocent people in jail? It's not like we're advocating the death penalty here.

Wouldn't you rather have a couple of innocent people safely tucked away in jail for a period of time over the alternative which is to have criminals running rampant on our streets breaking laws and killing more people?

We have systems in place whereby if you are truly innocent and in jail, you get food and television and free medical care and for most people who don't do anything all day anyhow but watch TV and eat junk food, jail CAN be a positive experience overall.
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ts, 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, you misunderstand. Pointing out what an incredible tool Mike Masnick is is fun for me.

This isn't a felony offense yet?
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Jails are not 'overcrowded' everywhere.

What planet are you on?

The US system is overcrowded with drug offenses. Moreso than the rest of the world combined. Where the heck did you get your statistics?
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 1:52pm

Re: Re:
We have systems in place whereby if you are truly innocent and in jail, you get food and television and free medical care and for most people who don't do anything all day anyhow but watch TV and eat junk food, jail CAN be a positive experience overall.

Then by all means, go live in one for a year. But don't expect everyone to jump at the chance to be a part of a perpetual underclass which has limited jobs upon release and succeeds in disenfranchising minorities disproportionately.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:07pm

Re: Re: Re:
What crime have I committed?

The point is that most of those who 'unjustly imprisoned' are there because they probably got off before on some technicality and probably should have been there anyway.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Here you go spanky:

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/09/09/plenty-of-room-remains-in-canadas-prisons

This would be a great way to raise our exports.
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Planespotter (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
oh dear... I see there is little hope for you.
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Planespotter (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
ahhh.. I see... you have come to Techdirt for the lulz!
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Planespotter (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Mr Generalisation is in da house Boyzzzzzzzz!

Isn't tonight that NRA get together where you all dress up in Mom's best white table cloth and burn church crosses?
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:28pm

Re:
This is a really huge distinction, and Mike, I think you (especially) would be attentive to it. Assuming the allegations against NV are true (and they appear to be based on what the operators themselves said and the articel you link to, but you may disagree), the operators of NV were not only operating the site, but also were, themselves, uploading much of the infringing content. And that's not what the DMCA safe harbor was meant to cover.

That's entirely true. I may have misunderstood the writeup. I thought it implied that since users were uploading the videos, the DMCA doesn't apply. But if it's the operators, then it is a different story. And you're right, that they would not be protected then.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
What crime have I committed?

The crime of ignorance isn't an arrestable offense, so you're free to go.

The point is that most of those who 'unjustly imprisoned' are there because they probably got off before on some technicality and probably should have been there anyway.

I guess the Guantanamo prisoners are only there because they are all convicted terrorists, eh? Or how about the environmental activists that are bullied by the FBI? Have you even looked at the Latinos who are imprisoned through the Secure Communities program (which ICE runs?)

Not only are you ignorant of the problems here, but you're believing that the government provides when all research (hint: not your article) suggests otherwise.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Really? You just said "What planet are you on?" implying that prisons are all filled to capacity.

I provided you an article from September of this year stating that there is plenty of room in Canadian prisons and that they are not 'overcrowded' like you claim.

It's perfectly reasonable to turn make lemonade from lemons and turn our prisoners into a commodity to be traded.
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:46pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow! Just Wow!

"I guess the Guantanamo prisoners are only there because they are all convicted terrorists, eh? Or how about the environmental activists that are bullied by the FBI?"

Take a look at percentage of released Guantanamo prisoners who have returned to terrorism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_former_Guantanamo_Bay_detainees_alleged_to_have_ returned_to_terrorism

As for Environmental activists, many of whom have been smoking weed, might be suffering from delusions of persecution, have you considered that?
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 2:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
everyone knows this
If everyone knows this, then why do you bother to say it?
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:07pm

Re: Re:
This is a really huge distinction, and Mike, I think you (especially) would be attentive to it. Assuming the allegations against NV are true (and they appear to be based on what the operators themselves said and the articel you link to, but you may disagree), the operators of NV were not only operating the site, but also were, themselves, uploading much of the infringing content. And that's not what the DMCA safe harbor was meant to cover.

That's entirely true. I may have misunderstood the writeup. I thought it implied that since users were uploading the videos, the DMCA doesn't apply. But if it's the operators, then it is a different story. And you're right, that they would not be protected then.

I'm reading this a little differently.

From what I read, it seems there were teams dedicated to content. I have no idea of how large or small the teams were. I believe the best way to think about this is with the US library of Congress.

Imagine we have the administrators who know how many books are coming in per month and how many are being loaned. They see the number, but don't know how many books might be bad copies. The curators, the ones that handle the books, know of a few books that might get them in trouble. Every now and then, the administrators put a new book in the list to be loaned out. The system works and people donate money to continue the archive and make the archive larger.

Now imagine that the ICE wants to take down 5 specific books. They arrest the administrators who are known to put new books on the shelf. The curators have to find a new library to work for. And suddenly, the library is shut down and the donations seized, even though they have nothing to do with archiving the work, merely making a better service than what is offered in the market at the time.

So I have to ask, why should we allow the admins to be arrested for a civil crime? I don't believe that they were not protected, but the exception to their charges is through fair use. The purpose of their works (as the article seems to insinuate) is archiving works and making it easier to access.

From what I see, they did not have Red Flag knowledge per se. They did not know which movies were "illicit", nor did they know which ones they were to avoid. There is no list of copyrighted materials which are off limits to look at. Yes, they "ate their own dog food" and uploaded documentaries and videos that were benefitting that community. I would like to think the DMCA as well as the Fair Use Doctrine allows for their archival purposes, but they were steered into a different direction through faulty advice at greedy lawyers.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Why the hell are we outsourcing prisons to other countries?

And I'm the one that said "what planet are you on", not planespotter.

Looking at what you believe (people should be locked up for nonviolent crimes) it's just not worth it to actually take you seriously.

The evidence suggests that those locked up don't actually reform and that they are worse off in the long run with a criminal record that limits the jobs they get when they're out.

Your positivity towards this negative factual data is beyond ignorant. You can't lock up all of the people in your nation without looking like a fascist society in some regards.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You're absolutely full of it.

The NDAA now hampers that process. By your logic, those people were only released because of a technicality. Never mind that most of them didn't commit a crime, were willing to cooperate until the CIA began to use torture techniques, and were never given much in the forms of due process under Bush and Obama's administrations.

As for Environmental activists, many of whom have been smoking weed, might be suffering from delusions of persecution, have you considered that?

Bullshit. Read more, learn more. They weren't the perceived stereotype that you imply. Maybe you need to read more before responding with bad and flawed logic.
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Planespotter (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
...alledged_to_have_returned_to_terrorism

Oh dear... don't let absence of FACT derail your arguement there Billy Bob!
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I notice you left out any response to the fact that most of those so called 'innocent' terrorists which were released, are now engaging in terrorism.
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Jay I've been biting my tongue and, I must admit, kind of laughing at you a little bit (sorry!) for the past couple hours - but now it's starting to get painful. Vance is definitely an ironic troll. Look at his comments dude! If those are sincere I'll eat my hat
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vancedecker (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 3:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You continue making my point for me:

"The evidence suggests that those locked up don't actually reform"

Exactly why we need to keep them locked up.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 4:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Thanks for trolling, dude.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 5:23pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your posts tell a different story, Mike. Do you really think no one can tell?

No. My posts do not tell a different story. For those who can comprehend even moderately complex subjects.

Most people here seem to understand just fine without jumping to multiple false conclusions. Perhaps -- just perhaps -- the issue is with you, since nearly everyone else here can understand what I am saying.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 6:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, I figured it out earlier. This kind of confirms it. The #whoosh totally got me when I looked at some other posts.

Damn engineering logic...
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Marcus Carab (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 7:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Heh yeah well to be fair it got almost everyone. I was very close to rebutting him before I noticed - and even then I still wasn't sure (and am now glad i kept my mouth shut for once)
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JMT (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 7:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The issue is not what he thinks he can do, but what he wants to do, as this affects the way he does his job. It seems like a terrible attitude for a law enforcement officer.
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Jay (profile), 21 Dec 2011 @ 10:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, I can rest in a minute.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Dec 2011 @ 11:34pm

�I am a law-enforcement officer,� says Special Agent Ross. �I want to put people in jail.�

Dude, what's holding you back? You've got a badge, you've got guns, and you've apparently got the ability to completely ignore constitutional law and public opinion. Just fire over peoples' heads, and when they scream, slap the handcuffs on them for "disturbing the peace". I'm sure you could lock up a few hundred people a day if you put your mind to it. Go nuts.
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average_joe (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 5:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No. My posts do not tell a different story. For those who can comprehend even moderately complex subjects.

Most people here seem to understand just fine without jumping to multiple false conclusions. Perhaps -- just perhaps -- the issue is with you, since nearly everyone else here can understand what I am saying.

Mike, I know you're a smart guy. And honestly, I don't think you're evil or anything like that. But I do think that practically everything you say is an intentionally misleading lie. I think it's a shame that this is what you've resorted to.

Just look at this article. One guy says one sentence, off the cuff. You take that and cook up a whole backstory about how terrible that person is. And not only that, you take one person's statement and then credit it to all of ICE. Your headline says that "ICE admits." That's just blatantly false, and OBVIOUSLY you are doing what you always do: lying and manipulating.

And you do this sort of intellectually dishonest thing day after day. Hell, you're so intellectually dishonest that you insulted the school I go to (again) and then pretended like you didn't when I called you out on it. WTF? Are you incapable of just telling the truth? Seems that way.

Whatever, Mike. I know you're a liar and a manipulator, and for whatever reason, you probably always will be. Perhaps after all the years of writing this blog it's just become second nature. It's a shame though, because I do think you're smart and have something to add to the conversation. You, unfortunately, have chosen a path that I just will never understand.

But yeah, Mike, keep telling everyone how you don't lie and manipulate. Obviously some of them are believing it. But just know this: You aren't fooling me, and you never will.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Dec 2011 @ 6:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Why are you here, then, if you disagree with Mike? There are other places to go. Are you paid to be here?
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average_joe (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 6:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Paid? Nope. I'm just a lowly student. Mike can't attack my position on the merits, so he resorts to insulting the school I go to. The insinuation being that anyone who goes to my school is an idiot, and anyone that went to his school is a genius. Obviously, that's not how the real world works, and there are idiots and geniuses at both schools I would bet. Mike knows this, but he lies and manipulates instead. That's what Mike does because that's what Mike is. It's apparently all he knows.
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The Logician (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 7:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You still have not answered my question, AJ. Do so. Now. Not responding is merely an admittance that you do not believe any law can be unjust and unethical and thus, an admittance of your own flawed and erroneous mindset.
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average_joe (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 7:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I don't even know what you're talking about. What question would you like me to answer, Spock? I'm happy to address your question, and sorry if I missed it before. I don't read every post or comment.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Dec 2011 @ 8:27am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I do think he's joking. Check his previous posts.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Dec 2011 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
LMAO? more like "Angrier than a bear with honeycomb full of bees up its ass"
So you can be snarky with him but he's not allowed to be with you?

Bah, it's like debating if the Earth is flat with a creationist. average_joe... you're average and that's substandard education in the rest of the world.
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average_joe (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow. You're an angry one.
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average_joe (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Tell you what. Why don't you create an identity and debate me. Show me how brilliant you are. I seriously doubt you can or will. What a fucking joke.
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bratwurzt (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Of course you don't (know what he's commenting on AND read every comment/post). You believe you are right. But you also think you know you are right. It's a difference - one is theism and other is gnosticism.

When people believe (or have enough incentive to ignore reality), knowing clashing with beliefs becomes an obstacle. The simple solution is delusion. But by being selective with facts makes assumptions using these facts... well, not true. :)

And if we're using the word obvious... let me have a go at it:
- it's obvious that you post these comment emotionally (and by this I mean that either you're involved with issues at hand emotionally or you're just being an attention-whorish troll)
- it's obvious that you mostly take one side - and it's the opposite of Mike, always (citation needed?)
- it's obvious that you troll (i.e. using logical fallacies and baiting people to react emotionally)
- it's obvious that you don't contribute to the debate
- it's obvious you're a hypocrite (citation needed? really? you make fun of Mike all the time and when served with most plausable assumption - jokes with truth bits in it sting a bit more than jokes made with lies - you call him out on it.)

But hey - we need a norm minimum to know where we stand. :P
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bratwurzt (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"But you probably knew that, right? I mean, you wouldn't lie and manipulate would you? No, not Mike. He's such a stand up guy. LMAO! What a joke. You couldn't be honest if your life depended on it."
What do you wnat to achieve with this part?

Your message got across just as nice without all that troll drivel...
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bratwurzt (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:38am

Re: Re: Special Agent Ross is a Nazi, pure and simple.
So if I understand this correctly:

Special agent Ross comes (with?) The Devil's Coachman (to) TDCs house and then beats the crap out of TDC just because TDC owns his own gay that drags TDCs ass to concentration camp where TDC's beaten again (at this point I really don't know by whom).

Why would he go with Ross to his own house to get beaten if his own gay does that for him in a luxury of a concentration camp? Not rational at all...
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bratwurzt (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 9:51am

Re:
"The government's irrational fixation with jail is in clear opposition to the public good."

How is profit irrational? ;)
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TtfnJohn (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 10:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
As far as it goes, I'm absolutely certain that I speak for most Canadians here when I say that we don't want your exports in this regard,

First off, no matter what Ms Beshara has done here which amounts to copyright infringement to be sure and making far too many assumptions about safe harbours without legal advice I have my doubts that she cost Hollywood a penny. In fact she probably could have done a better job in finding a legal firm that specializes in IP law that would have represented her better.

But you see, in Canada she probably wouldn't get custodial time at all for her "crime" as from beginning to end there was no violence and no, as yet, spelled out losses by the plaintiff and certainly none to the state outside of income tax. Generally speaking we don't send people to jail for that one either unless it's a massive amount and clearly fraudulent.

Yes, her site may have been forfeited AFTER a trail but she would have been given a non-custodial sentence, ordered to pay restitution (all of which would have forced Hollywood to come up with actual losses based on real, not imaginary, accounting practices which I'm sure they don't want cause there wouldn't be any as you can't actually lose a "possible" sale and call that a line item) and do some form of community work appropriate to the "crime" in question.

In short, we don't imprison the vast majority of non-violent "crimes". So if you handed her over to us the worst she'd get is one of those oh-so-fashionable ankle bracelet things.

All that said, we don't want your crooks. Unless, of course, the United States wants to pay the costs of the related custodial time. It don't come free, you know.

At a guess, I'd say that should she get a 5 year term, serve the entire thing and get out her imprisonment will have cost the American legal and penal systems far more than any damage she did to Hollywood while, at the same time, taking away aspects of the site that did good things.

And this makes sense to you? Even IF I agreed with the ICE agent's view of his job (and I don't because it's not his job to be judge, jury and executioner) spending more to keep her incarcerated than any REAL, not imaginary, damage she and her site may have cost.

Constitutional questions aside, it makes no sense at all.

No wonder American jails are filled to overflowing.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 10:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Please enlighten me. Since when did the police become judge, jury and executioner? When did that happen?

The role of law enforement officers is to investigate alleged crimes, assemble evidence and then pass it on to the Crown (in Canada) or the prosecution in the United States to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal cases that such a crime (a) occurred and (b) this is the perp we gave you.

Sure, the cop may be utterly convinced he has the perp but that's his/her opinion and, often, not a very good one at that as to be a decent investigator there's some amount of tunnel vision required which often causes the investigator to miss evidence that would through their conclusion into question. It's not like this doesn't happen, Joe, and happen often.

And that's what we have courts for. To take the investigator's OPINION, educated as it is, and prove that in criminal cases BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT in an adversarial setting. And that's why many prosecutions never go ahead and why many fail.

One more time -- it is not the ICE agent's job to be judge, jury and executioner. Sorry, but you've been watching far too many tv shows which are fantasy, remember?
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Ross The Judge Dredd Wannabe, 22 Dec 2011 @ 11:30am

I AM...THE LAW! Take down your website and prepare to be judged!
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TtfnJohn (profile), 22 Dec 2011 @ 11:33am

Re: ICE's function
He still needs to collect evidence that a crime did, in fact, occur not just take Hollywood's word for it that one did. And he has to collect sufficient evidence to to convince a judge or JP to issue the search warrants that led to the raids in order to collect more. None of which justifies the over the top raids with artillery drawn when there seems to be no evidence that they'd meet resistance much less armed resistance.

Then he turns over said evidence to the prosecution authorities who will attempt to prove a criminal case from what he's collected.

Sure, he can hope that what he's done will send someone off to the the the nearest overcrowded prison but he is NOT judge, jury and executioner which is the only way to read his statement. The logical end game to that attitude is tyranny, not cozy fascism but tyranny which is worse. Yes, he has laws to enforce. Yes he has a job to do but his job isn't to convict. That belongs to the courts and the courts alone.

At least for now.
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charlie potatoes, 22 Dec 2011 @ 4:36pm

Re: Re: Re:
My god, that sounded ominous. haha Police record? Why does that sound so National Socialist to me? haha What's next? You want to know if we have children? A job we like? Since when is questioning the cops motives the same as "having an ax to grind?" You are scary.
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The Devil's Coachman (profile), 23 Dec 2011 @ 7:29am

Re: Re: Re:
No, I don't, and the fact that you asked at all, following your stupid and baseless presumption, makes you a complete asshole. Yes, I would tell you that to your stupid face, bitch ass.
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The Devil's Coachman (profile), 24 Dec 2011 @ 6:23am

Re: Re:
Idiot cop? He's a pisspot wannabe cop. Mall cop. Whatever. If he ever confronted an actual criminal, he'd have to change his underwear at least twice - once during the actual encounter, and then after he woke up and thought about it again.
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