Are Democrats About To Lose An Entire Generation Of Voters By Pushing PIPA/SOPA Forward?
from the do-they-not-understand dept
I've talked, in great detail, how the SOPA/PIPA debate has been a non-partisan discussion. It's not bi-partisan and it's not partisan. It's just non-partisan. The debate has nothing to do with traditional Democrat or Republican lines. This has confused cable news, who has a script to follow, but doesn't know what to do with strange bedfellows. However, some people have noticed an interesting thing in the response to yeseterdays' protests: it was mostly Republicans who moved decisively away from PIPA and SOPA. While a few Democrats did so, many took hedging steps -- saying they "heard concerns" and would "work to fix" things -- but still supporting the bill. This is -- quite reasonably -- infuriating internet savvy Democrats who point out that the party is on the verge of losing an entire younger generation by supporting not just this legislation, but the corrupt process that created it:If you keep reading that story, the Democrats listed all remain adamant that they'll remain co-sponsors of the legislation but work to "fix it".Indeed. Even worse, there are rumors that the White House itself may flip flop on its earlier statements, and pretend that any "new" deal meets the standard it set with last week's announcement. If true, it seems that the White House and the Democratic Party are making the bet that young people really aren't paying attention to this issue. It seems to me that that's a huge miscalculation on their part.
Bullshit.
It's been a while since we've seen Democrats this tone deaf, this oblivious to political reality.
You have an entire wired generation focused on this issue like a laser, fighting like hell to protect their online freedoms, and it's FUCKING REPUBLICANS who are playing the heroes by dropping support?
Those goddam Democrats would rather keep collecting their Hollywood checks, than heed the will of millions of Americans who have lent their online voice in an unprecedented manner.
Are they really this stupid? Can they really be this idiotic?
Those pushing for this quick solution don't seem to have understood the protests yesterday. They weren't protesting this bill per se. They were protesting the entire process through which these bills were made. Using the same backroom dealing to come out with another bill... and pretend that "all stakeholders" had been heard from and were in agreement seems like a very, very dangerous position to stake out.
Over the last few years, the Democrats have been considered the party who "got" the internet much more than the Republicans. Is that about to switch?
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Filed Under: democrats, internet generation, partisan politics, pipa, protect ip, republicans, sopa
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I've already made up my mind
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Re: I've already made up my mind
Not trolling, but seriously, what reasons were you using to justify voting for him otherwise?
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Yesterday was only the beginning
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Victoria Espinel, U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
Victoria A. Espinel
U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
(Emphasis added.)
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Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Most of the time, that causes them to take utterly insane positions, but the one thing about the internet is that it actually allows for a lot of the necessary prerequisites for a genuinely free market to actually work.
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totally wrong, wrong focus, wrong understanding
So it is not that the $politicalgroup responded more strongly.
It is that the group which is currently the majority power actually responded. If this had been democrats in power they would have changed faster than republicans. Since it is republicans in power who want to stay in power, it is republicans. It's entirely a scorched earth concept.
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That quote is referring to the young voters who actually took Democrats at their word, right?
Well, the sooner they figure out that the two parties are merely two sides of the same coin, and that all the partisan "bickering" is just a show put on to raise re-election money, the better.
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Already happened...
I will never vote Dem (or Repub) ever again.
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to prove the point just look at the differing response between the parties over the third party candidacies of Perot and Nader that swung the election against Bush I and Gore. One side tried to address the concerns and win over the supporters while the other side attacked and blamed the supporters.
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The fact that each anti-SOPA/anti-PIPA argument has to have the words "...piracy is indeed a problem..." as if we're talking to a 5 year old child throwing a tantrum over some candy "...now I know you want that candy but...".
They've never even proved the full impact of piracy and most of us know that, and still we have to use that baby talk to concede a point that they should not have. Every argument we make has this fallacy built into it, this little nick they can use to hold on to their artificially produced fears.
Give an inch, they take a mile.
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re:
It's only that they're the majority that they are responding. Whichever party is the majority always has to respond to gigantic public outcry in some way or they're destined to become the minority - simple, cut and dry.
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Re: ...
I would like my mile back, thank you.
(...?)
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Re:
And what if...the "evidence" so frequently cited by industry shills is based on government studies that never existed?
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This is bigger...
If SOPA and PIPA pass then it is clear that our elected officials no longer represent the will of the people. Tampering with MY INTERNET crosses a line in the sand. I called my representatives yesterday. I emailed them too.
If these bills pass then I will dedicate myself to seeing this regime thrown from power. It really will become *Us-vs-Them* and will be the start of a revolution in this country. I'll do my very best to see it happen.
I will not live in a country in which my freedoms are eroded for the betterment of a corporation and dying business model. Say NO to censorship. Say YES to freedom.
**
I was just looking at this page on SOPA SUPPORT/OPPOSITION. It looks to me like the tide has turned against SOPA significantly.
http://projects.propublica.org/sopa/
PIPA remains a serious concern. I'll see what happens on the 24th. I'm hoping more people voice concerns on the 24th. I'll be calling and emailing on the 23rd and 24th as well. I hold TechDirt darkens their website again. I hope Wikipedia does something too. We must all work together on this.
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Prediction
I highly doubt that disaffected Democrats who decide not to vote for Obama (aka Bush 2.0) in November are going to jump ship to vote for the Republican's Obama-lite. More than likely, we'll just see record low voter turnouts from both parties.
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Re:
If they were on the ball, they would have used the internet like the lightning fast and global communications medium it is to create hordes of interested and paying customers. It wouldn't be 100% fair to say that you could look at the internet in 1994 and see dollar signs immediately, but even a few years later, the potential was obvious.
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They don't get it
Maybe more democrats do understand the implications and truly are vouching to 'fix it' (without understanding exactly how much it's broken).
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Bullshit
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
He promised to shut down Gitmo, a new era of transparency and delivered neither. You lot in the USA should know better than me what else Bammy should've done but didn't
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Re:
Even in a speech acknowledging PIPA and SOPA being a political disaster they still say "piracy is still a problem" or "online theft is a problem". This is short for "I am still owned by the MPAA/RIAA"
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Re: Prediction
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Re: Prediction
“Iowa: The Meaningless Sideshow Begins” by Matt Taibbi, Rolling Stone, Jan 3, 2012
Two different versions of the status quo.
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Re: I've already made up my mind
So no matter the issue or what the person represents as long as they are a DemocRAT you will vote for them? Or as long as they are not a DemocRAT you will. Sad really. Voting based on party or race, instead of what they stand for does a great injustice to our country. DemocRAT, RepubliCANT, both parties are bought and paid for.
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
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Re: They don't get it
or that they are better paid by Hollywood?
or that they know better then republicans how to continue to get campaign contributions by lengthening out the "conflict"?
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Re: Re: Prediction
I wish to heck there was some kind of third-party candidate this election cycle.
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Business
It is hard for either side to miss that Hollywood wants the World to suck its hairy nut sack. Not many have the taste for it but like any true whore it is just a matter of price.
Still like anyone they have bills to pay and a better class of "John" is not a bad idea. So this would be not about losing their old dirty source before the new buyer is whispering sweet words of long term deals in the President's ear.
Whore away our political friends but this goes to show that the Republicans have benefited less from Hollywood.
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Urgent Message by Representative Zoe Lofgren
submitted 56 minutes ago by Representative Zoe Lofgren
For anyone who happens to think this isn't really Representative Lofgren. Her facebook page links to this post.
http://www.facebook.com/zoelofgren
Yesterday was important. Emails and phone calls poured into the US Capitol. The message in opposition to SOPA/PIPA was clear. As I was on the floor of the House yesterday, I can assure you that the actions taken were noticed by the Representatives. For myself, I was inspired that millions of Americans cared enough about freedom to contact their elected Representatives. But we have not yet prevailed. The key vote in the United States Senate is scheduled to occur at 2:15 next Tuesday, January 24th. It is on a “motion to proceed” to consider PIPA. We need at least 41 Senators to vote NO on the “motion to proceed”. Our vote count right now show us in single digits on the NO side so we have work to do. If the motion to proceed is successful it is likely that a form of SOPA/PIPA will become law this year. So this vote is a KEY VOTE on PIPA in the Senate. The concern is that Senators may try to have it both ways. They can say they are only voting “yes” on a motion to proceed to “allow the bill to be fixed.” But the truth is that moving to proceed next week will leave the proponents of SOPA/PIPA in control of the process. It will shut down further debate and preclude input from Internet experts and the public and will prevent meaningful consideration of changes to the bills. The goal of proponents of SOPA/PIPA is to pass something in both the House and Senate so that legislators can move “behind closed doors” into what is known as a “conference committee” and write what they want in secret.
A yes vote on a motion to proceed is, in effect, a yes vote on getting SOPA/PIPA made into law. And that vote is scheduled to be taken next Tuesday at 2:15. Your opposition to SOPA/PIPA had nothing to do with political parties and everything to do with preserving free expression on the internet. Make sure that everyone knows the KEY VOTE in the Senate is scheduled for this Tuesday, January 24th, 2:15pm (EST). We need Senators to vote NO.
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"January 18th is just the beginning. We’re also gearing up for a day of action on January 23rd when the Senate will be back in session and getting ready to vote on the Protect-IP Act, SOPA’s sister bill. We’re calling on digital activists and Internet users everywhere to call Senators on the 24th and voice their opposition to this censorship legislation. Despite the chorus of opposition from human rights advocates and the tech community, Senators are still trying to push through this dangerous censorship bill. We need all hands on deck to make sure that doesn’t happen."
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2012/01/january-18-internet-wide-protests-against-blacklis t-legislation
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I say this as a young democrat.
The fact is today’s Republicans have already hopelessly screwed themselves over and burnt bridges with the youth in various ways. To cite just a few examples off the top of my head.
-Today’s youth strongly supports gay rights/marriage (by a 2 to 1 margin), and views it similar to the civil rights struggle fought by blacks a generation ago for equal rights. Most republicans still brag about hating & discriminating against gays in order to win votes. The same goes for a lot of social/civil rights issues.
-The youth tends to be a reaction of the presidents they grew up with. Today's under 30 crowd that voted in the last presidential election is therefore a reaction to economic prosperity under Clinton, and lots of incompetence under Bush. Could this change when the newest youth forgets Clinton and just remembers Bush and Obama? Yes, but what Bush & republicans did during the Bush years will still keep hurting republicans for another decade at least.
-The youth is more and more diverse and minority based, and the GOP continues to do almost everything they can to piss off minority groups (see Newt attacking blacks for collecting food stamps, ignoring the fact that many poor white people in rural areas (areas that tend to vote heavily republican) also depend heavily on food stamps).
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Prediction
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Re: Re: Re: Prediction
Wait... sounds almost like I'm describing somebody already running.
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Re:
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Are Democrats About To Lose An Entire Generation Of Voters By Pushing PIPA/SOPA Forward?
To everything under the sun, there is a time...perhaps it is the time for the traditional parties to see their time end as well...
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
At least the Democrats pretend to care about the poor. It's only lip service, but it's something.
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You mean Obama might go back on his word? I'm shocked!!!
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Re: Victoria Espinel, U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
This is the whole basis of running an Administration. People he can count on to get the jobs done.
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Re:
I'm not a member of any political party (and never have been) but if I were a Republican strategist, I'd be thinking very hard about how to fix that.
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Par for the course for the current administration
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As I recall..
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Victoria Espinel, U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
It's a subtle one ;-)
If you've been following closely, then you've already heard of Ms. Espinel, and her role, and I'm just reminding you.
If you're new to the story, then you're probably not aware of her role, and I'm raising awareness.
That is all.
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Re: Re: Victoria Espinel, U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
This is the person who's phone should have been exploding yesterday as well.
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Re: As I recall..
Damn. I wish he was still around. I'd really like to hear what he had to say about SOPA/PIPA.
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Re:
Some people are very passionate about Coke versus Pepsi. And there's no doubt! The two brown, fizzy, sweetened beverages taste different!
Some people are very passionate about the diffrences and get into long, heated arguments. Maybe they like arguing?
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
You don't have to rationalize anything to anyone but yourself. They're just recommending you think things through before making a decision on a vote such as this.
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why so surprised?
"They were protesting the entire process through which these bills were made. Using the same backroom dealing to come out with another bill."
Why is anyone surprised? The healthcare law took the exact same path.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
So this might be the first time in my life that I do not vote. It's sad, and maybe I'll throw my vote away on a 3rd-party candidate who will never win because s/he actually speaks to what I'm looking for, but I certainly see no reason to take time out of my day to vote for Obama or any of the cast of characters who are the front-runners for the GOP.
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Biased blogger, quotes biased blogger !!
It appears not, even this is just a quote from some self proclaimed "expert" just like Masnick.. Yet it appears KOS does the same as Masnick, and is just another one of "them".
Here is a clue mike, how about something original from YOU !!
is that possible, or can we find everything you say, allready said by someone else. Do you know what research is ?
I guess not, I guess it is easier to use other people's information, you dont have to think that way. And you do not have to stand by what you say....
one day mansnick will actually say his own opinion, and produce an article which is not simply something stolen from someone else.
But dont hold your breath...
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Re: Re: As I recall..
http://downlode.org/Etext/zappa.html
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Its far worse than that. They want to keep them poor because that is their voter base.
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Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
Like it or not, we need some buffer between the people and the treasury. What we have at present is utter shit, but straight up mob rule would end badly, methinks.
Heed the words of agent K: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re:
As I said it in my comments below, and even Larry Lessig agrees - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ik1AK56FtVc (go to the part about is it republicans/democrats).
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Re:
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Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
The Congressional races are still important. I've pretty much made up my mind on a straight ticket:
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Really, go blow smoke up someone else's ass. I know a hell of a lot of people who had to go on the public dole, and they got off it ASAP. It kept them alive and above water long enough to get another job.
If idiots like you had the slightest idea just how hard you have to work to get into these programs and stay in them, you would shut up. But, instead you rely on 3rd hand info from 40 years ago. If it's so easy to do, why aren't you doing it? Just jump on the welfare system and coast!
You, sir, are an ass. Go bray somewhere else.
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Re: They don't get it
If the Dems do understand the implications and still want this in any shape or form, what does that say about their opinions on liberty in general? I don't see any way to fix this, it's just giving the ban hammer to big content, a bigger hammer than the ones they already have.
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
1) If he supports SOPA/PIPA, I won't vote for him
2) I won't vote for a Republican
Which basically says: I will vote for him because he's not a Republican, but I won't vote for him if he supports one thing I oppose.
People like that drive me nuts, and are a large reason why this country is so f'd up.
I certainly didn't say you didn't have the right to vote, but I think you're voting for all the wrong reasons. Please, exercise your right - thanks for having a good reason.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Prediction
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
And maybe we don't want to live a sub-standard life living off the dole. I'm not sure why that would even considered to be an viable option.
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Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
So, the horseshit goes both ways bud.
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Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
I cannot stand people who think they are throwing their vote away. Every time I hear someone say that, I want to slap them.
I voted for Ross Perot. The day after the election, at least 50% of the people I spoke to about the election told me they were going to vote for Perot, but didn't think he would win. If everyone who didn't think Perot could win had actually voted for him, it would have been a very different election.
When did voting for President become as silly as voting for Prom Queen or Senior Class President?
Vote your conscience, if you have one. This is not the Miss America pagent. You don't vote for the prettiest, or the most popular. Vote for someone you think will make a difference. If you don't, you have thrown your vote away.
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Re: Bullshit
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Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: Biased blogger, quotes biased blogger !!
This is a news site NOT mike's personal blog.
He reports the news
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Term Limits
If they only have one term then they can't do so much damage and will hopefully get the message that they work for us and not big money!
Maybe all the crooks that want to run for office will seek their fortunes elsewhere
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Re:
NYT link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/technology/indictment-charges-megaupload-site-with-piracy.html
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None of them care.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
Until shit like regulatory capture where the government literally asked the oil companies who they wanted in the oversight committee.
Get a rock solid moneyproof wall between politicians and companies, and a huntingseason for lobbyists and you just might end up with politicians representing the people again rather than just paying lip service to get elected and then go with whatever the one who gave them the most money thinks is best.
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Re:
Like welfare, some people do abuse piracy, like people copying and reselling, but most piracy is harmless, if not good.
Piracy will cease to be an issue once the business models are updated to use free copying. You can't pirate free stuff(in the normal sense).
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Vote for one = vote for both
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Just gonna throw this out there
I think the better solution is to take power away from the centralized government, push it back closer to home, and leave the Congress/Senate with the bare-bones authorities that they should have.
If Congress no longer has the power to grant the favors sought, the money will dry up and we may get some worthwhile representation. I'm not saying that the MPAA/RIAA are geniuses, but even with their shady accounting they should be able to recognize this losing proposition.
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Re: This is bigger...
*cough* NDAA *cough*
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Of all the candidates running in 1992, it was Ross Perot's message I agreed with more. However, thanks to the wonders of modern technology (and one of the reason I believe quite strongly that results should not be announced until after the last poll has closed), by the time that I (and at least several dozen people I knew who had planned to vote for Perot as well) were able to get to the polls, Perot was so far behind it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that he would not win.
So we all voted against the candidate we absolutely didn't want in office (some didn't want Bush in at any cost, other's didn't want Clinton in at any cost) instead of a candidate we did want in office. We didn't want to "throw out votes away".
Instead, what we ended up doing was we threw our votes away. Perot got some decent percentage out of that election. He would have posted even higher number had we all stuck to our guns. He likely still would not have won, but he would have had more momentum going into 1996, and had he picked a different representative to run under his platform than himself they might have gained even more momentum.
Now I don't know if Perot, or whomever he might have gotten to run under his platform if it wasn't himself, might have made a lousy President, or if they'd have turned out to be just as big a bunch of crooks as the crop we have now, but we passed up on a real chance to break the two party system and we let it slip away so we didn't "waste out votes".
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Re: None of them care.
Yes, Ron Paul has said a few sensible things from time to time; but on the other hand, so has Michele Bachmann, and she's clearly insane. Sporadic, isolated moments of lucidity from otherwise-crazy people do not suffice to make a case for electing them to political office.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
I know someone who lost everything, was $50k in debt and had only a 120,000+ mile mini-van worth maybe $4k. That was enough to keep them from getting help. Now if he had lost his mode of transportation and only asset left in the world, they would have been waiting at the door with bags full of money for him. So why should hard working citizens not be able to get help when they fall on hard times until they have lost everything they have? I am not for any program that I spend my entire life paying into that won't pay me back a dime until I don't have a dime left.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: None of them care.
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Re: Re:
"An indictment accuses the company of costing copyright holders more than $500 million in lost revenue from pirated films"
How are they allowed to make claims like that, when what they possibly mean is that they believe that people downloaded material which if it had been purchased would have cost that much.
But it's such a leap between, if purchased and definitively or even possibly cost revenue of x millions that it's literally breathtaking that people are allowed to make it when they have nothing to back up the claim, especially when claims made under law are in most other circumstances required to be precise and accurate.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Speaking of figures, in 2009 47% of the people paid no income tax. I can't find the source off hand, but I have heard that 49% of the people receive public assistance. This country is $13 trillion in debt. How long can it last with only half the people pulling any weight at all? Whatever the answer is, giving away more and more money isn't going to solve it.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
Sure, people can _claim_ they donated but how will the candidate know if there's no payment for the specific amount the IRS gives them ?
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Re:
(Not to take away from the atrocity that just happened, but to highlight the futility of it.)
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Re: Just gonna throw this out there
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Re: Re: Re: Prediction
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Re: Re: None of them care.
He claims to be for people's individual freedoms and doesn't dump that the first chance he gets to please homophobes or racists.
Obviously he is starting from an insane place so even consistency and logic cannot actually get him to a sane one, but out of most of the politicians in the US he is probably one of the few that is within shouting distance of sanity, even if he has no intention of getting any closer.
From an international perspective, we know he'd be bad for the average US citizen, and really bad for those with problems but on the plus side, he almost certainly would stop the US destabilising the rest of the world, and with his face turned against war unless necessary, that alone could save anywhere from 10's of thousands of lives (as previously in Afghanistan) to possibly millions (as previously in Vietnam)
To the rest of the world, we would surely love you to choose him, but would feel really sorry for you if you did.
Which isn't to say that we don't feel sorry for you under this one and really embarassed for you under the last one.
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None of this is surprising...
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Every politician has their own set of corporate paymasters, and they answer to them. When any of them -- even the president -- dares to disobey, retaliation is swift (as evidenced in another story here on Techdirt). Obama will sign SOPA if it winds up on his desk, because he knows he can't be elected without all that Hollywood lucre pouring into his campaign coffers. And since the mainstream media (also the property of the corporate oligarchy) consistently succeeds in convincing Americans that they only have two choices when it comes to any political office, you will never see any third party candidate pose a genuine threat to the status quo.
Take your pick: high taxes, corporate welfare and the destruction of the free Internet, or compulsory Puritanical values, corporate welfare and the destruction of the environment. Those are your choices across the board come November.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Just gonna throw this out there
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Re:
They have no idea what they are screwing with.
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Re: This is bigger...
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Re: Just another pissed off American
They pass this shit, and you're gonna see me become one pirating fool. I'll have to upgrade all the hard drives in my NAS to hold all the shit I'll be downloading and pirating!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Second, about receiving public assistance, it depends on how you count. If total public assistance were counted -- meaning financial assistance provided by a government program of some sort, then pretty close to 100% of us receive it.
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Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner."
Common saying of the time, often attributed to Benjamin Franklin.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
You are a lying sack of horseshit, AC. You don't even kinda know what you are talking about.
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Re: Re: Just another pissed off American
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Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
What's really funny is the thought of the look on his face if he'd won. :)
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In the long run they don't care so much about which of the two is number 1. They just don't want you thinking past the number 2.
The False Dilemma personified in a decades-long marketing campaign.
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Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Who picks the Supreme Court still matters
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
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Re: Re: GOP Racism
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Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
There's sumpin screwee goin on here.
Im gonna catch me a lobbyists, and im gonna cook him right here in this pot. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, that's just what im gonna do.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
It doesn't hold up to scrutiny and statistics, but don't expect them to care. It's all 'fish stories'.
"Oh, man, I saw this welfare queen and she was so lazy! Eating lobster too!"
You are disgusting
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Note the scorn. Obviously, those who are on assistance aren't 'honest'.
Roughly 50% of the people who are in the SNAP program are children. We should penalize them for not choosing better parents.
We should ensure that they don't have a chance.
Just, wow.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
This notion that the poor are the problem is just amazingly asinine. I thought we'd learned that shit, but I guess not.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Not just got a modicum of food, which is seemingly the most offensive. Rather it's rich assholes buying themselves legislation.
Well, they've earned it. Worked hard.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
Just finance it publicly. Cheaper. Better.
Pay the politicians more so that their interests are aligned with their jobs.
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Re: Re: Re: GOP Racism
I think Matt Taibbi summed it up pretty well. It's narcissism:
LAWRENCE O'DONNELL: Matt, before we get to the transformation, one of the central questions about the Tea Party, and one of the accusations that flies around, is that this is a racist group – predominantly racist group, partially racist group, or more racist than your average collection on a subway car in New York City. You've been in and among them. What's the answer to the Tea Party racist question?
MATT TAIBBI, Rolling Stone magazine: My answer is it's not so much about hating black people for these people, I think it's more about believing in this preposterous fantasy that white people are some kind of oppressed minority in the age of Obama. And I don't know whether that's racism, but it is just incredibly stupid. And that's really my answer. I think there's not that much overt racism, clearly race is a factor in almost all of their political views. But it's really more like a collective narcissistic –
O'DONNELL: They're working without a historical framework for anyone else's experience except their own and their own families. And that's what you're calling the kind of the narcissistic view of our politics.
TAIBBI: They really believe in this sort of idea that they're this persecuted, oppressed people and they have no frame of reference about anybody else's experience and they also don't have any sense of how their rhetoric is received by the rest of the country. Just think of the whole idea of a tea party: if they're the Tea Partiers, people like you and me are redcoats, you know, we're literally not Americans, we're un-American. And they really believe that.
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Re: Re: None of them care.
He's a "Tenther".
Completely different things.
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The Internet WILL Contract.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Many people don't understand how much was given to them. They act like they did it all themselves.
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Re: Business
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Re: Re: Re: As I recall..
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Re: Re: None of them care.
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Re: Just gonna throw this out there
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Re: Re: Victoria Espinel, U.S. Intellectual Property Enforcement Coordinator
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
As John points out, this country is in huge debt and half the people are drawing assistance and paying no income tax. Like he said, how long can a country last with stuff like that going on? Please answer his question.
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Oh please, Bill Clinton signed the DMCA.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Go add up the cost of the bailouts.
Then go add up how much social programs cost per year.
It isn't hard
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That line matters too. Some groups are being quite deficient.
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That line matters too. Some groups are being quite deficient.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
That line matters too. Some groups are being quite deficient.
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To my congresspersons and senators
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There's no guarantee he's not going to sign it. He voiced concerns about the NDAA too, but he still signed it. And he hasn't said a peep about PIPA.
If he doesn't sign it he gains a lot of my respect, but I'm not holding my breath.
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both have lasted far to long
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Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
people choose the lesser of two wolfs
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Did you act rude? Yes.
Are there people been eligible or did receive a government backed assistance program who realized that either at that time or some time after that the program isn't the best method to help people get out of a bad situation? Of course there have been.
Are the Democrats a bigger supporter of public assistance, regardless of the cost or results than the other parties? Well, maybe not if you consider every party out there, but if we stick to the majors, and include candidates who run on multiple lines then yes.
Even with that.
I still would like you to point out what I posted that was made me a "lying sack of horseshit", as you called me, considering that I was the AC above that you directly replied to, and not the John Doe a bit up the thread.
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That 'could' be a sound argument if income tax wasn't such an important revenue generating tax.
If anything, the dismissal of that number just helps to illustrate how overtaxes we are. Every time money moves, it's taxed. Regardless of how often, or how much it has been taxed previously.
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But don't let that ruin your sense of social justice.
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Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
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Well...
Of the folks who were for it and are now against it, those folks make up a bunch of Republicans, sure. Does this mean that the remaining Democratic supporters are harder to sway, or just that a lot of Democrats didn't sign on to begin with?
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Re: My favourite definition of democracy: Two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner...
Interesting.
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Re: There is no solution.
Just throwing it out there...
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Re: Well...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/04/business/20090205-bailout-totals-graphic.html
Powerful people clearly gaming the system for their benefit.
Yeah, sorry, my sense of justice is that it is not being served.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Yesterday was only the beginning
And that's easy to game by making the new entrant appear to run against the positions of the incumbent. But then he can vote the same way as his predecessor. And on it goes.
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Re: Re: There is no solution.
I'll submit that there might be a time to fight, but holy crap, do we have to just stand there waiting for that time and not ever take a stand before it comes to that?
It's demented. And passively doomed to failure.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
But there needs to be a sense of reality. We can't go freaking out about anecdotal claims of fraud which in total actually result in losses that could also be found in rounding errors.
That's throwing out the good for the impossible perfect.
And while we're at it, as I'm sure you are making some assumption about my politics to the negative, let me say that I'm against the fact that even one quarter of a cent of my earnings went to pay for this:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/21/us/texas-drone-strike-victim/index.html
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I'm upset that my tax dollars went to causing the burns. I am glad that we are at least in some way trying to make up for causing it.
It's not the same proportion of course
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I've studied economics. Everyone always makes perfectly rational decisions.
No one ever did something they regretted due to a simple mistake. Especially when young and in perhaps some cases suffering from mental health issues. The very definition of irrationality.
I get what you're saying. These people are just looking for a signal, and the pricing of not quite enough money to get enough to eat is just what they are attuned to. Especially with a crying baby. That's what every depressed 19 year old needs.
If the evaluation of incentives is even one tick of rational, then we're needlessly condemning those children to poverty and perhaps starvation. When we have plenty of food.
Tell me where the incentives are so wrong again?
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It's definitely time for a change world wide methinks. Luckily the internet seems to be opening many peoples eyes to what's being done in our names by our respective governments.
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Here lies the truth about SOPA/PIPA that even TechDirt has yet to report: what MPAA, RIAA, and Hollywood execs do not want you to see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzS5rSvZXe8
The truth behind why these big companies responsible for SOPA and PIPA are also responsible for piracy itself is far more insidious than even their outmoded business model.
Can you say, do as I say so I can crush you under heel?
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This is bullshit
Don't get me wrong, love a chance to kick either party in the balls when they play games and make BS moves. But at least lets be honest about what is really going on.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: I've already made up my mind
Poor people don't vote as much.
"A study on these disparities found that 86% of people with incomes above $75,000 claim to have voted in presidential elections as compared with only 52% of people with incomes under $15,000. As a result of the participation disparity across demographic lines, politicians are more responsive to the opinions of high-income constituents. A study of roll call votes under the 107th and 108th Congresses reported that legislators were three times more responsive to high-income constituents than middle-income constituents and were the least responsive to the needs of low-income constituents. "
There is probably a difference between R and D on this, but I think it's inaccurate to state that "poor people are the Democrats' voter base".
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Re: totally wrong, wrong focus, wrong understanding
Then why are the Senate Democrats still favoring the legislation? They're the majority there. I don't think your narrative fits the facts.
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Re: Re: Bullshit
Enormous checks from Hollywood?
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RC is better than both. :-p
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Re:
You mean like a muscle?
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Re: ... ... ...: I've already made up my mind
He'd be three times as likely as if a middle earner told him. I would say... it's worth a try! ;-)
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Re: Re: Re: ... ... ...: I've already made up my mind
Of course not, nobody is rich. Only people 50% richer than you are rich. People making $100,000 a year say when you take out taxes, mortgage, food, utilities, occasional domestic travel, gasoline, insurance, it's not that much. And people making $300,000 say that when you take out taxes, mortgage, food, utilities, occasional domestic and international travel, box seats, insurance, financial planner fees, and gas for the yacht, it's really not that much. People making $1,000,000 would throw in mainentance for the private jet, mortgage on the beach house, and household staff, and you really don't end up with that much.
However, IMO it's really not appropriate to "take out" mortgage, food, utilities, vacations, gas, and so on. Those are all parts of your lifestyle that your income allows, and they have great value. It's like saying "yeah, but if you don't consider all the awesome stuff my money lets me buy, it really doesn't do me much good." Of course this whole thing is just an irrelevant side conversation, so whatever. :-p
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Right, agreed there.
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critique of justice dept case against megaupload.com
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It's only a matter of time before Democrats . . .
I've found that what liberals support today, if their leaders don't like it, it'll only be a couple or few years before they actually think it's the best thing.
Think about it, that's why Republicans are ready to drop the bills, but Democrats are saying, lets rewrite it. They're not going to convince liberals today, but they will engineer some sort of mass persuasion technique that within the next 2 to 6 or so years Democrats will raise this issue up again, and liberals will be crying in support of it. Liberals will probably be so convinced they'll actually believe that a bill worse than these two today will give them more online freedom. Either that or Democrats will engineer another form of this bill in the disguise of online security, and liberals, like morons, will jump on board and pass a bill worse than these two.
Liberals are way to easily convinced today to actually think this issue won't eventually pass with liberal America's support. I'm telling you give max, a decade, minimum, 2 years, and a bill worse than this one will be passed, primarily by Democrats with liberal America's blessing because liberal America consist of this nations stupid bunch. Now I'm not talking typical Democrat supporters, I'm talking liberals. A good half of Democrat supporters are not even liberal at all, and vote Democrat for other reason.
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Re: It's only a matter of time before Democrats . . .
I'm curious, do you have some examples of this phenomenon?
liberal America consist of this nations stupid bunch.
Oh, well at least you're not biased or anything.
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