Tool Singer Defends His Lawn: Decries Our Entitled, Uncreative Society
from the fear-of-progress dept
Reader vegetaman points us to some comments made by Maynard James Keenan (best known as the singer for the band Tool) in an Oregon radio interview that suggest he's reached the "get off my lawn" phase of his career. When asked about music piracy and its effect on the industry, he responded:I think it's a much bigger conversation. I think part of the problem with most of that is just the foundation of respect or entitlement. I think 'entitlement' is probably the better word. I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it. So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem. So it stems from there. And then things like file-sharing and the Internet kind of lend themselves to that mindset. So, some day, hopefully, we'll adjust that perspective ... And until somebody has actually written a check to record their own record and see everything that goes into it, they don't really understand that if you just take it... The current state of music, I'm sure there's a lot of creative stuff going on out there, but there certainly isn't—of course, I'm being nostalgic—but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it."
Perhaps he chose "entitlement" over "respect" because he realized that "kids these days don't have any respect" is a bit of a cliché, and not a positive one. But I've heard this "entitlement" complaint before too, and it still doesn't make any sense. People aren't so much entitled as they are accustomed, and that's a natural result of progress. Sure, people (especially digital natives) get frustrated when they can't find what they are looking for online, but how is that different from getting frustrated when you can't find a gas station? It's not some grand sense of technological entitlement, but rather the fact that we structure our lives around the tools that are available to us, and thus come to rely on them. On the internet, the simple fact is that you can get what you want at the click of a button, and people aren't going to pretend that's not true out of respect for those who predate the privilege. The real sense of entitlement is believing that you don't have to grow and adapt to changing technology, and that you can refuse to give your customers what they have grown accustomed to (and can get elsewhere) and expect them to stick around.
Then there's his perception that there is less creativity today, and at least he acknowledges that he's being nostalgic, because he's certainly not being accurate. The cost of creating, distributing and promoting music have all fallen drastically, allowing musicians to bypass gatekeepers and resulting in more music being made, and more financial opportunities for artists, than ever before. To claim that the cost of making music is limiting creativity is just weird (and not the good kind of weird like Tool's album art). Keenan does have an affinity for expensive productions, but it's a shame that he seems to think creative value is directly linked to budget.
Increasingly I feel like someone needs to sit all these aging musicians down and explain to them that the internet is pretty awesome, and it isn't going away.
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Filed Under: copyright, entitlement, maynard james keenan, piracy, tool
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I agree. He is a tool.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
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Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
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Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
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Next time you need a tool here is one for all yer needs.
plug it in and watch it vibrate away.
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Sad that it upsets you so much that you have to publicly whine about it.
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Winston: That's a big Twinkie.
Ray: We could be on the verge of a fourfold crossrip! A popular uprising of incredible, even dangerous proportions!
Venkman: Hey, everyone, we just had a visit from the MAFIAA Protection Agency. How is everyone holding up?
Ray: Not good.
Venkman: Oh?
Winston: *to Egon* Tell him about the Twinkie.
Venkman: What about the Twinkie?
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And the Twinkie is strong with this Capitalist.
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The real sense of entitlement is believing that you don't have to grow and adapt to changing technology, and that you can refuse to give your customers what they have grown accustomed to (and can get elsewhere) and expect them to stick around.
Did you even read the article?
Doesnt appear that way. IMHO this is one of Leigh's better articles.
"Increasingly I feel like someone needs to sit all these AC's down and explain to them that the internet is pretty awesome, and it isn't going away."
FTFY Leigh.
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One tool writing about another tool. (Couldnt resist)
Um cant afford to do so? Is he living under a rock? So sad. At least he realizes he is an old fogey.
"I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it." - Interesting go on:
"So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem."
Damn. Thought he was going to say something great. FAIL.
Um toolie, we are in the age of want it now, get it now. If your labels cant deliver, than thats not our problem.
The technology is there to easily give your customers what they want when and how they want it with little to no expense to you. If you dont realize that and adapt, please go the way of the dinosaur, or just sit in your rocking chair with your blanket over your legs talking about the good ole days.
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Re: One tool writing about another tool. (Couldnt resist)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
My ears!!! D:
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Need to check reason 7.
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This claim is baffling. Simply by scrolling through my FB feed, I can see this isn't true. If anything, more people are creating more stuff at an amazing pace.
CIP: Check out netlabel Aural Sects. That long list of output is less than a year old. And this doesn't even include the work that these artists have done for other labels, or released completely independently via Soundcloud, Mediafire or personal websites.
Also of note: nearly every album on that label is available for FREE.
I see nothing but creativity exploding and more people looking for a way to express themselves artistically, rather than sitting around bemoaning the supposed "death of creativity" that the internet has brought about.
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BD
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Remember
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You're doing it wrong...
I would think that it is somewhat obvious that you will not see the cutting edge creativity when you are sticking to the way you have always done it.
It is correct that "most people can't afford to do it." when speaking specifically about the super expensive and highly controlled production services that he is familiar with and likely thinks is "the right way" to go about making music. The real problem is that the world of music he was a part of is getting smaller because there are just so many more ways to do things. It is not a bad thing that many artists decided to go a different way to achieve their goals that does not require them to become indentured servants to a music label.
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It now costs to be creative??
Since when does being creative cost money? I'm missing what creativity has to do with money, because last I checked even little kids can be creative and they don't have to pay someone to do it
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As has already been mentioned, Keenan equates spending money with quality production... they're not the same thing. I helped fund a band on Kickstarter last year so they could get some studio time to produce an album because I really liked the few demo songs they had out. They ended up producing a really great album that has turned out to be one of my all time favorites. You don't have to be rich to produce a great album. People that have the same thought process as Keenan are being left behind in the digital age...
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Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Innovation? They hate it and call it DRM. They're stuck in the 70s when FTP was invented and they hate the idea that anything different than anonymous FTP might come along. They like the idea that search engines haven't changed since Alta Vista came along.
And if the BSA, the RIAA or the MPAA show up to defend their rights, whooo boy, do they scream and yell with entitlement.
Take a look at who started the EFF. They're folks with grey beards who believe that the web should be just like it was when DARPA was paying 100% of the freight.
Then look at the youngsters like Louis CK. They're embracing paywalls and new techniques that help the crowd actually fund new content. It's the geezers who are the creator haters.
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
"They like the idea that search engines haven't changed since Alta Vista came along."
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Hey apparently bob is one of those people that thinks the Internet is a "big truck that you can dump things on." bob, it's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
How is it that the web should be responsible for handling content? And who exactly is the web anyway?
"Then look at the youngsters like Louis CK. They're embracing paywalls and new techniques that help the crowd actually fund new content."
Are you telling me that someone found a way to make money on the internet? They can fund the creation of new content too?? Someone at the MPAA/RIAA should give him a job so he can show them how to do that too!!
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Please unplug your computer from the internet and call your local police officers to remove you from the world and try again later.
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Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
I mean... Wow.
You really are a retard.
P.S. I really am sorry for offending all the developmentally challenged people of the world for comparing you to them.
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Here is the translation:
* I am a person with property of X.
* You are a person who, for all intents and purposes, will never have property of X.
* My argument is based on X.
* Because you do not and cannot have X, your perspective of my argument is automatically invalid.
Get off my lawn, indeed.
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* Ok, so their actually using their debit/credit card, i doubt they have check
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Re: Get off my lawn indeed
These are people who don't want to improve themselves. People who want to improve themselves realize that everything changes and to get along you have to be ready to change with it. You can't learn one way to be and then sit on your laurels for the rest of your life. You have to be prepared to change with the world or you'll be left behind. We are trying to move forward and these dinosaurs are trying to hold us back because it's easier, familiar, and predictable for them. They are failing now because they fail to realize they need to change. They have nobody to blame for this but themselves.
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http://www.planeshift.it/about.html
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That's, what? 800 losses and 0 wins for you, bob?
Trying the flawed argument of "Let's see you do better!", for shame, for shame.
At least TRY to be more interesting next time, okay, bob?
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Tools being Tools
is fair use):
All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.
I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.
.......
All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar
So...Shut up and
Buy my new record
Send more money
Fuck you, buddy.
http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tool/hookerwithapenis.html
-chad
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Re: Tools being Tools
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Its like that totally hot chick, gorgeous long hair, blue eyes, big boobs, long legs, then she smiles at you with three teeth.
Big letdown and I wont look at them the same anymore.
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Wear the grudge like a crown
Of negativity
Calculate what you will
Will not tolerate
Desperate to control
All and everything
Unable to forgive
Your scarlet letterman
http://www.lyricsondemand.com/t/toollyrics/thegrudgelyrics.html
All of their BS has nothing to do with making money, they know how to fix that. It has to do with control, which is what their current battle is, disguised as a battle against piracy.
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And funny enough, the world didn't end. And if you felt 'enttiled', well guess what: You WERE. Want to know why? The YOUNG are entitled to the future. By definition it belongs to them. As for the 'entitlement generation' you and yours embraced your entitlement and passed it on. If you don't like it, don't blame us. We didn't get a lot of choice in how we were raised.
tl;dr Your lawn. I'll stay off it now. Our interwebs. Will you do us the same favor?
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Way to stupidly conflate two different things. I know copyright laws apply to me, but that certainly doesn't mean I have to respect them.
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Seriously who in this day and age would respect a granted monopoly enforced by a government?
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This is the exact idea that we dreamed about as kids... And I bet that these artists did too...
Instant Delivery, 'Wonka-Vision' for those that are old enough to remember the 1971 movie. No more waiting for UPS/Fedex, you want something, you print it, at home... products, toys, food, whatever. Apparently while engineers were moving forward at break neck speed with new technologies that allowed instant home delivery (of content in this case) the business majors were in their dorm rooms playing X-Box and getting drunk (my own real life observations, and I am neither an engineer or business major).
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Where can I get a legitimate download of Tool music? Love the stuff.
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Wait, did you mean "official" or "legal" maybe? Sorry, can't help you with that.
Ask Maynard, maybe? If he's not a tool, he might point you in the right direction.
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Creativity
I don't believe that's what he was trying to say at all, and I think you've skewed his quote a bit. The issue isn't that people aren't creating things. It's that MORE people are creating things, but the things they're creating pretty much all SUCK. The popular musicians of this generation have gotten famous, successful, and wealthy off of no-talent, no-effort pop garbage. Which inspires other creators to create the same crap. We've reached a point where quality no longer matters. People keep talking about how there are way more people creating, but quantity doesn't equal quality. And if making music with computer generated beats, lyrics with no emotional or intellectual value whatsoever, and Auto-Tune so you don't have to even actually sing, if that's what's getting people rich and famous these days, that's what everyone else is going to do. Especially since millions of retards worldwide are lapping this worthless shit up.
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Re: Creativity
That's your opinion, but obviously lots of people don't think it sucks, and I don't see why that's an issue, just because you don't agree with it.
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The thing that gets me is that most artists probably use autotune themselves, but they do it in subtle ways that make it non-obvious.
Kesha goes out of her way to max out the autotune. For her, autotune is just another instrument.
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Re: Creativity
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Re: Creativity
Most pop music never has had much in the way of lyrics with emotional or intellectual value particularly the latter as that's not the reason people listen to it or want to listen to it. Singers didn't have to sing back then either because producers would splice together a number of takes of the vocal tracks so it sounded like the singer actually hit all the notes right, pre AutoTune Autotune.
I'm not going to bow to your superior tastes in music and ability to judge it because I just don't care. People are connecting to music for some reason, usually emotional, and it that's not up to your standards too bad. That doesn't make them retards except somewhere in your mind.
Both you and Keenan remind me of the old men I listened to as kid who kept saying how hard they had it, walking to school up to their hips in snow, barefoot with only baloney sandwiches for lunch. They were full of crap then and the two of you are full of it now.
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Re: Creativity
The major labels are in no position to critique or ridicule independent musicians. Independent artists have much better music and products to offer their fans. What's more, many indie artists have been offering their music for free (GASP!), hence why major labels are so desperate to censor the internet: The lousy "music" they offer cannot thrive in a truly competitive atmosphere.
"The popular musicians of this generation have gotten famous, successful, and wealthy off of no-talent, no-effort pop garbage. Which inspires other creators to create the same crap."
Believe it or not, not every musician is influenced by major label garbage. That the major labels have been pushing so much atrocious music on the general public is all the more reason for independent musicans to be proactive.
"We've reached a point where quality no longer matters."
If you're talking about people who are using music as a launching pad to stardom and fortune, i.e. major label acts, then yeah, I'd say quality certainly takes a back seat. But the same doesn't hold true of everyone else.
"People keep talking about how there are way more people creating, but quantity doesn't equal quality. And if making music with computer generated beats, lyrics with no emotional or intellectual value whatsoever, and Auto-Tune so you don't have to even actually sing, if that's what's getting people rich and famous these days, that's what everyone else is going to do. Especially since millions of retards worldwide are lapping this worthless shit up."
The premise of your rant is too narrowly focused on the uninformed. Again, not everyone cares about the garbage being offered by the major labels. Expand your horizons a little.
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This is sad...
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Re: This is sad...
What's troubling is that you would dismiss his points rather than stopping to engage these thoughts yourself. This is, after all, a guy who got odd time signatures into primetime rotation on MTV. That is no small feat. Tool went platinum multiple times over by sticking to their guns and remaining out of the limelight in the late '90s, when being a top-selling act meant you were connecting with a vastly greater number of people than the top-selling acts of today. We're talking tens of thousands versus tens of millions. ("CwF" for real)
I'm not saying that just because Tool was successful that it implies he's correct. But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags.
I know what it's like to worry that you're being led down the primrose path; that you'd rather continue believing that you're right than considering the realities presented by those actually working and earning in a specific field. The people who tell you the things you agree with are so nice, while those who disagree are so mean and out of touch. How convenient! What luck that they divide so readily. (Reminds me of a Louis CK joke: "How convenient that every musician on TV is attractive! I would figure there would have to be some ugly guy who could sing... but I guess not.)
This is the primrose path. The idea that an "anything and everything you want, whenever you want it" culture is in any way sustainable... well, down this path madness lay. I think it's a downright irresponsible notion to tout. Perhaps the most irresponsible kind of behavior because it's rippling effect through culture is so very hard to undue. The people who spout this rhetoric target kids, who are highly susceptible to such suggestive spin and promises of some fantasy future. But just as the notion that "You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up!" is entirely unrealistic and statistically impossible, and therefore comes as a blow to young adults, the realization that the present is suffering for an imagined future will be a painful wake up call to many soon-to-be adults. Tomorrow is always a day away, kiddies. Remember your history.
Some of those who preach this nonsense are themselves kids who don't know any better; the same kids who think "awareness" solves problems. But sometimes, and this is the vibe I get here, it's the agenda of someone who is thinking "Who can I screw? What can I steal without being caught?" The kind of mentality that has put the world economic climate in such a sorry state. You know who profits from free content? Those who control the distribution channels. I don't imagine collecting royalties from some Valley tech start-up will be any easier than getting them from your label.
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I'd like to clear this up once and for all: my opinions on music, creativity and the industry have nothing to do with my own music hobby.
Yes, I occasionally make some music for fun. I have zero intention or hope of it making me money or gaining me a bunch of recognition. That's not what I do it for (and I'm well aware that the music I make has extremely limited appeal, and is pretty amateurish in a lot of ways). It's a hobby, and it's fun. That's all.
I don't identify myself as "a rapper" or as "a musician" or even as "an amateur musician". I'm a writer/designer/developer/marketer by trade, who just happens to record a tune here and there for my own satisfaction and that of the
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Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
...my own satisfaction and that of the few who give a shit.
If you're evaluating my opinions based on me as a musician, you're doing it wrong. My opinions come from being a lifelong consumer of music, and someone who has been paying close attention to the development of music and related business models in the digital age.
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It's just like how new people haven't fully realized that Leigh = Marcus yet. They're going to keep attributing that "you're a musician" just because you have "crappy music" (their words, not mine) under your name.
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Wonder if that would have been true had the labels not paid radio stations to blast Sober et al on the air waves.
The idea that an "anything and everything you want, whenever you want it" culture is in any way sustainable... well, down this path madness lay.
Bullshit. Look at the success of iTunes, Amazon, Netflix, etc and tell me that culture is unsustainable. I dare say the old way - forcing you to drive to the store which has limited inventory - is unsustainable as our population continues to grow.
Seriously, think about this for a moment; which of the following is more sustainable?
a) Everyone has to go to National Record Mart in order to purchase the latest Tool album. Probably looking at an hour of your life driving to there, browsing, paying, and driving home. And that's if there's even an NRM near you; you might be driving even more if the nearest one is far away.
b) Anyone can to go iTunes in order to purchase the latest Tool album. It takes only a few minutes to find the album and have it downloaded to your PC. And all you need is an Internet connection.
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Why? Seriously, that he has expertise in how to sell records in the old environment means absolutely nothing about whether or not he knows what he's talking about under today's environment. Why would you think that it's at all relevant?
Again, why? Unless there's an unstated "for free" in your statement somewhere, then I can't at all see the logic behind this assertion.
If there is an unstated "for free" in your assertion, then you're not understanding the issue at all.
You and I are apparently reading different blogs, because the vibe I get here is more along the lines of "how can I stop these companies from screwing me?"
By "screwing" I do not mean "charging money". I mean all the efforts of the *AAs that are actively harming our rights as citizens, whether they pirate (or indeed, even listen to music and such at all) or not.
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Or, more correctly, the label he was signed in had that expertise at the time. He's an excellent musician, but that has bugger all to do with the sales tactics used. He may have been involved, but the success or failure of a band need not have anything to do with the band itself when they're signed to an entity who controls their destiny.
"If there is an unstated "for free" in your assertion, then you're not understanding the issue at all."
Indeed he doesn't.
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The only problem I have is that for all of his commentary about how important it is to evolve and grow, he is now defending the perspective of those who REFUSE to do just that and actively pursue policies that have little regard for anything but their own greed. He railed against "smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas" and now he is defending them. THAT is why I said I lost a little respect for him. His commentary is usually more progressive and this is the antithesis of progressive.
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You know that part "where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it"? There's a word for that. It's called INNOVATION.
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Re: Re: This is sad...
Most if not all great innovator from the past and present are full of gumption, Einstein a mere patent office clerk was lecturing other giants on how the universe really worked, and then there is DaVinci the bastard son of a wealthy man who was educated in arts with a reputation for never finishing what he started that lectured others on how to build some mechanical marvels and had the gumption to study anatomy WTF!, Carl Marx for better or for worst was a drunkard that couldn't have a hold on his finances and he still wrote about economic theory, Mendel was a monk or something like that if I recall correctly, the theory of evolution came from a fellow that had his expedition paid for by his father at his 20's.
The point being, it doesn't matter what one does, did or will do. The truth is the truth and trying to attack the person and not the arguments underlying it is what people call ad hominem(Latin for "to the man" or "to the person").
You try very hard to discredit Marcus as to try to make the facts he states sound less, but the only idiot here is you.
Nobody is buying that load of crap about "entitlement" if anything else the only people who feel entitled are artists like the "Tools" that want to hold an monopoly forever and don't care what happens to the rest, it is increasingly clear that those idiots that call themselves artists hold a view that the world own them something, we the world should correct that faulty logical fallacy just by ignoring it.
If all people need to do to harm you is to ignore you, than your business is in trouble.
Copyright is optional, always has been and that will never change, people can choose to respect it or not, and by giving me and everybody else reasons to ignore it I can't see how that could possibly be a good thing for people who depends on that crap or think they depend on that crap to survive.
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Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
Otherwise +1 to all that!
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Re: Re: This is sad...
The news here isn't what is being said, but who is saying it. What Keenan said is nothing new, we've all heard the same complaints from long-established acts many times before. Personally I see no need to "consider his point of view" because I already have, numerous times, and have come to the conclusion that in my opinion he's wrong.
"But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags."
"You're not a real musician, so you can't comment on the music business."
"You're not a movie maker, so you can't comment on the movie industry."
"You're not a lawyer, so you can't comment on the law."
"You're not a... blah, blah, blah..."
Yeah, heard all that before too, and it's a crock of shit.
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Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
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Sheeshh....
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Ahh...yes, entitlement...again
Why, just because the shopping model of pushing a button has existed for years and has become widely used, should people think they ought to be able to buy things by pushing a button?
Why shouldn't Mr. Keenan offer something for sale, but not in any way his eager buyers want?
Next thing you know, wackos will be claiming the customer is always right or that customer service matters.
Crazy talk.
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At least then they could actually make an effort to engage besides just calling people criminals and poo-poo-ing the internet. They might just be amazed at what happens.
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We consumers would like a product worth paying for.
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Shill: "Artists need to be paid!"
Me: "Then let them get a job."
Shill: "That'll give them less time to make music!"
Me: "Then they can stop if it's too difficult for them. Someone else will replace them."
Shill: "Why do you think you're ENTITLED to free music?"
Me: "Because the music I listen to is free."
Shill: "Only because you're STEALING it."
Me: "No...nothing is being stolen, or even pirated. I don't listen to retail music. Period."
Shill: "Why won't you just buy music?"
Me: "Because I would never sink so low as to pay money to a record label."
Shill: "Yet you're addicted to their content!"
Me: "Sorry, I don't listen to retail music. So if I'm not listening to it, why the hell should I pay for it? And why the hell should my internet access be jeopardized based on false flags and/or forced legislation?"
Shill: *crickets chirping*
...and so on and so on...
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Oh, wait, never mind, I was already doing that. Or did you just mean the artists that you think should be paid?
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I would love to (legally!) obtain a copy of Tool's music. I'm already paying aforementioned $15 monthly so that I can listen to as much music Microsoft has access to as I want, plus download 10 DRM-free MP3s each month. However, Tool has zero digital presence. So, instead of them getting some of my money and me getting to listen to their music, I listen to one of the other countless artists available to me. If Tool ever moves away from shiny plastic discs, I'll listen to them instead of forgetting them in favor of my other options.
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When I was little, my parents taught me to share things... If it was something I only had one of, then I gave up some of my time with it ... when there was plenty for everyone, then everyone got some. Good boys and girls share with others.
Now that I'm an adult, I'm being told I can't share things because the "creator" says so (okay, so it's not really the creator, but some big media gateway)... There's enough for everyone to have as many as they want... but I'm still not allowed to share. Sharing is bad!
You'll have to excuse me if I'm bothered by having what my parents taught me thrown back in my face.
Even so, I buy a lot of those shiny plastic discs ... and I don't share my toys anymore with the other boys and girls.
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Really?
Really? As compared to what? I grew up in the 80s and 90s, when everything on the radio was a cookie cutter of everything else. Compare that to the huge, broad variety available now. This is, hands down, the most creative age for music in my lifetime, and maybe ever.
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Re: Really?
The period of mainstream music from the '70s until today has, with a some exceptions, been a wasteland. It was horrible before Tool and is no less horrible now.
However, there is more excellent and wonderful music being made now than at any time that I can remember in my life. It's just not coming through mainstream channels.
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Re: Really?
When I was growing up, I changed between 2-3 different radio stations for country music all the time because the commercials sucked and the music was just awesome. I could do that all day for weeks at a time.
Now-a-days I'm lucky if even three good songs in a row come on the radio anymore.
that being said, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying my personal experience.
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It's not about 'free' sir - it's about the fact that - with JUST ABOUT ANYTHING you can basically click and order it - no problem. But not music - getting music off the web is harder than getting tools off the web.
I can go to multiple sites and order tools, appliances, electronics - with a few clicks and they'll be at my doorstep - music isn't that easy, but it should be.
The assumption that everyone who wants music to be available in an easy to consume fashion and for a fair price on the web is a thief is insulting to "would-be" paying customers.
I say "would-be" because digital media is WAY overpriced. I can buy used CD's for a fraction of the cost of digital media and that's legal - like it or not.
As long as consumers feel like they are being 'shafted' on the cost - don't expect sales.
Would you go out and buy something you think is a rip-off? If you have the money to burn - go for it, but most consumers don't - and even many that do - aren't willing to waste it.
Tell me again - why I should pay $15.00 for 15 digital music tracks when I can head to a local store and buy a used CD for $1.00 - $5.00?
How is $15.00 for something that's not even a physical good worth it?
I can pay $15.00 a month for unlimited MMO gaming, or another movie channel - much more value than 15 songs.
The media industry is just used to shafting consumers and they don't like the fact that they will need to change from 'rip them off hard' to serving up large quantity for the same price, but if the prices were a "deal" - people would gobble up media like no tomorrow.
Doesn't anyone remember the CompuServe/Prodigy vs. AOL battle in the early days of the web?
I never got CompuServe or Prodigy - they were a rip off... Then AOL comes out with unlimited and look where they went. Sure - after time, they waned too, but it was because the market just didn't support a large central ISP like that once DSL and better became popular, since the Telcos had that under their thumb.
CompuServe - few may even remember the name.
Why?
One main reason: Consumers felt like it was a rip-off.
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I sat out all the noise around AOL vs Prodigy/Compu$pend because both seriously limited my ability to get around on the Web unlike what I got from my ISP. As long as I was doing dialup at 48K I wanted to go where I wanted to go, not where they wanted me to go.
And yes, eventually the Telco's got DSL to work to the house over 1000 ft and the Cablecos got their high speed up and running, even if it slowed to a crawl between 4-7pm when everyone got home at first.
Even back then you could order tools and appliances and they'd get delivered. Even then there was a ton of file sharing going on though mostly text, short video clips and the odd song.
If the "content" industry had any sense at all they could see the present day coming. After all, even pre DSL days they'd send rushes from Vancouver to LA across T3's using the Web.
Back then the Web was something retail couldn't make head or tails of. They couldn't figure out that building a brick and mortar like mall site wouldn't work, though Lord knows they tried. They couldn't figure out why their intrusive ads didn't work or would lead to nasty letters to advertisers.
Almost all of retail eventually got it with a lot of stumbles along the way Google figured out how to serve ads without pissing people off. The rest of the advertising biz figured out the web isn't television and we don't have the same tolerance for animated dancing bears.
Amazon, bless or curse them, basically reinvented the mall for the web.
But the "content" industry just didn't get it and still hasn't. Instead of making music and film easy to get at prices people will pay they've hung onto outmoded ways of doing business and the times people could get things they felt ripped off by the prices.
It's not as much that people expect to get what they want at the click of a button as the market (people) expect vendors (the *AAs) adapt to how they want to shop rather than adopt to them. When it didn't happen it went underground. The market will get what the market wants. Pure and simple. Where there's a demand someone, somewhere will fill it.
To be honest I'm astonished that the "content" industry itself didn't fill the demand years ago. Instead they chose to fight the new marketplace. That's certainly their privilege but instead of effectively wiping out "piracy" years ago by supplying the demand they didn't. Now, I suspect, they've made so many enemies in that marketplace they can't sell into the market under their own name even IF they finally get it and the supply is there when someone wants to click the button to get a Tool record.
That's not entitlement, it's supply and demand and the way markets work. Yes, the artist(s) want to be paid. And so they should be. But instead of blaming people file sharing perhaps they should blame their labels. In fact that's who they ought to blame.
Instead some sound like old men who decry the better days when they were young and look back at something that never was. If Keenan wants to sell on line go for it. If he wants to make money then do it and if his label won't he should be jumping up and down screaming at them. Not longing for "the good old days".
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He's right... and so am I
Unfortunately for him, he seems to have a sense of entitlement when it comes to using this thing that the Digital Age has invented called the Internet.
If you want to use digital media, accept the fact that copying is inseparable from it. Otherwise, it's like he wants to ride public transportation, but he doesn't want anybody else on it with him.
Accept copying, or don't use digital media. It's as simple as that.
Signed,
A grumpy old codger - and no, the Internet does not belong to the young.
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Is that like the old fogeys (older than me) in the Woodstock movie complaining about all the hippies cluttering up the neighborhood?
Or maybe it's like all those people who see my farm, and decide that since it isn't being used, and God made it anyway, then they can take whatever they want?
Life is so complex!
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_off_my_lawn
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Who is this guy again?
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true...
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Back in my day the internet was delivered to your mailbox by a human being! Music was made by guitars and Skrillex wouldve never left the math team and he wouldve been a chem major.
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That would be bad, if this site actually did that.
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As we've said if the labels would at least figure out that the market has changed and actually sell into it instead of holding on like grim death to a model that worked pre Web and complaining bitterly when the market wants to get the music, can't then gets it any way it can.
If you can't find depth or value out there these days it's not anyone's fault but your own. There's lots of it there.
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Re: true...
Funny, Nightwish's new album, out January of this year, is one of the best albums I've heard. (In my opinion, of course.) The whole thing comes together to tell a story, and it does so with amazing writing and musical execution.
Good music will continue to be made, no matter what. There will be people with the talent and passion, and the hounds of hell will not keep them from doing what they love. Will they make a living from it? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how good they are, how much people like them, how well they promote themselves, etc.
Do I think piracy is justified? No. Do I think piracy will ever go away? Again, no. Trying to pretend otherwise is simply denying human nature and ignoring the lessons of history. There is no reason a creator can't plan for that, and even use it to their advantage. There's not a set formula for doing so, but someone who actually cares about their fans will find a way. I'm fine with losing people who make music to make money. I'd much rather have people who make music to make music, with an added bonus if they also happen to make money.
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The mirror of entitlement reflects both ways.
The internet, it is not a fad - it is not going to go away or change the simple fact that digital distribution is here.
Your not getting enough money, look to your label and contract. See the clause about subtractions for album breakage. Look to your label calling it a sale when they sell it on your behalf, while calling it a license when they want to try and force consumers to pay again for the same thing.
It is not entitlement to expect in a world where one can press a button and have the great works of the masters at their fingertips that your latest recording is somehow magical and needs special releases and editions everywhere according to the release spreadsheet made in the 1950s that involved moving product by pony express.
Instead of calling your fans thieves, maybe look at the label trying to keep making the same money they always made when the business model has radically changed. Your fans get hurt by your labels silly rules. You want more money, talk to your label and demand better more transparent accounting. Force your label to get the product to where the fans can get it, and not give them a reason to look to alternatives. Or believe the label hype that your not getting paid because your "fans" are stealing from you. Then wonder why your making even less as your "fans" become ex-fans who think you are a giant tool.
Stop looking at how "Rockstars" are "supposed" to live, and learn that all things change. Then wonder why your label has enough money to pay for lobbyists to sue your fans, collect money, and never pay the "artists" they are so worried about. Someone is stealing from you, but its not your fans or people downloading.
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Commentary
"Right... But, on the flip side, look at the price of digital goods versus the price of physical goods. People expect to be able to use their products across all of their devices by only buying something once... The genie is out of the bottle, and whining about it isn't going to fix it. I still like buying physical CDs, personally (I prefer to buy them from shows at merch tables), and will do stuff like iTunes as a last resort. And I can't necessarily blame people for wanting stuff immediately, the problem is that there isn't an easy way for them to get the high quality music, legally, in a DRM-free way. People don't like strings being attached, either. If you're selling a product, you have to tailor to the consumer, unless you've cornered the market or something... I'll blow money on STEAM all the time, because they offer a service that I enjoy for a great price, and their sales are phenomenal. iTunes sales? Pfft, what? At least sometimes Amazon runs sales on physical CDs, at least."
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He apparently doesn't remember another senior musician, who notes that while you can't always get what you want, if you try, sometimes, you get what you need.
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Also I was VERY CAREFUL in my wording earlier when I explained why hearing this made me sad and that I lost a little respect for him. You have to pay attention to what he DIDN'T say as much as what he did. Although he regurgitated SOME of the typical spew of the Content Cartels, he DIDN'T advocate the adoption of draconian laws that infringe on the public's Constitutional rights. He didn't defend the other abuses of the gatekeepers. He merely expressed that he felt that file-sharing was bad because he felt that people have become used to getting so much of what they want when they want so often that in his opinion they don't respect where it comes from or how much goes into producing it. To attribute those other things to him and lump him in with the lot of IP abusers is a little unfair even though his statement on it's face (maybe even unintentionally) supports them. I respect his opinion even though I don't agree with it. I would love to hear him comment on more specific parts of the issue such as the Constitutional aspects as well as the fact that the media is trying to buy laws to support their special interest. Then we would know where he truly stands.
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There's problems out there, but they're not piracy.
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So, he complains about people being "entitled" but then refuses to offer people his music in the way they want? This is like trying to sell an album in his heyday but only offering it on 8 track, then whining when nobody wanted to make him a millionaire. Moron.
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Dude is in the business, has worked very hard, for a couple of different bands that have been VERY popular, and that give some of the best shows you will see.
I tend to believe him over Marcus.
It's not a question of entitlement (that is a true strawman), it's stating the obvious: once you remove the money from making music, many of the people who were making a living making music can't do it anymore. They have to do other things to pay the bills, so we lose that creativity.
Yes, modern tools mean that any idiot (like Marcus) can call themselves an artist or a rapper, but the reality is that I would trade a million Marcus-likes for a single new Tool album. I would rather have a system that pays Tool to make more new music, than a system that pays for more of Marcus type stuff.
It's not a matter of taste (ie, if I like or don't like rap, example), it's a question of letting talented people do what they do best (in Marcus's case, that would be vacuuming Mom's house).
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He should know better
He is partially right though. Mainstream music has lost all creativity, but it isn't piracy that's causing it, it's the labels themselves. I can't listen to the radio without 10 bands playing in a row that sound exactly the same. All owned by the same label, and all have their songs written for them by the same 65 year old African American woman.
Independent music has exploded, and it's baffling that he's so out of the loop. Puscifer was made specifically to break out of the box, you would think he would break out of the "labels good piracy bad" box.
I just went to a concert of four nerd-core rappers, Adam Warrock, MegaRan, MC Lars, and MC Chris. The one thing I can say about them, is they sure as hell are creative.
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Re: He should know better
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Jesus, won't you fucking shill with something not entitlement?
Why can't we not be pirates?
I just want to stream this again.
And why can't we buy your albums?
I just want to stream this again.
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money=content (or it should)
So yeah, I'm entitled as a consumer. A PAYING customer. To REQUEST that you provide the content you're trying to sell me in a format and purchasing/acquiring model that suits MY needs and desires. If you cannot or will not provide that, then guess what, I'll be buying someone else's albums on Amazon (in MP3 format with no DRM) and I'll be buying my movies on Amazon (in HD with DRM, but with reasonable restrictions that do not impede my fair use) or iTunes or Netflix or anywhere else that offers what I want in a purchase/use/licensing model that I am comfortable with for the price that it's being offered for.
If that is entitlement, then call me entitled. I just call it supply and demand and accommodating the needs and desires of the market (the expectations of the customer base).
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