Tool Singer Defends His Lawn: Decries Our Entitled, Uncreative Society

from the fear-of-progress dept

Tue, Mar 20th 2012 11:26am — Leigh Beadon

Reader vegetaman points us to some comments made by Maynard James Keenan (best known as the singer for the band Tool) in an Oregon radio interview that suggest he's reached the "get off my lawn" phase of his career. When asked about music piracy and its effect on the industry, he responded:

I think it's a much bigger conversation. I think part of the problem with most of that is just the foundation of respect or entitlement. I think 'entitlement' is probably the better word. I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it. So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem. So it stems from there. And then things like file-sharing and the Internet kind of lend themselves to that mindset. So, some day, hopefully, we'll adjust that perspective ... And until somebody has actually written a check to record their own record and see everything that goes into it, they don't really understand that if you just take it... The current state of music, I'm sure there's a lot of creative stuff going on out there, but there certainly isn't—of course, I'm being nostalgic—but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it."

Perhaps he chose "entitlement" over "respect" because he realized that "kids these days don't have any respect" is a bit of a cliché, and not a positive one. But I've heard this "entitlement" complaint before too, and it still doesn't make any sense. People aren't so much entitled as they are accustomed, and that's a natural result of progress. Sure, people (especially digital natives) get frustrated when they can't find what they are looking for online, but how is that different from getting frustrated when you can't find a gas station? It's not some grand sense of technological entitlement, but rather the fact that we structure our lives around the tools that are available to us, and thus come to rely on them. On the internet, the simple fact is that you can get what you want at the click of a button, and people aren't going to pretend that's not true out of respect for those who predate the privilege. The real sense of entitlement is believing that you don't have to grow and adapt to changing technology, and that you can refuse to give your customers what they have grown accustomed to (and can get elsewhere) and expect them to stick around.

Then there's his perception that there is less creativity today, and at least he acknowledges that he's being nostalgic, because he's certainly not being accurate. The cost of creating, distributing and promoting music have all fallen drastically, allowing musicians to bypass gatekeepers and resulting in more music being made, and more financial opportunities for artists, than ever before. To claim that the cost of making music is limiting creativity is just weird (and not the good kind of weird like Tool's album art). Keenan does have an affinity for expensive productions, but it's a shame that he seems to think creative value is directly linked to budget.

Increasingly I feel like someone needs to sit all these aging musicians down and explain to them that the internet is pretty awesome, and it isn't going away.

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Filed Under: copyright, entitlement, maynard james keenan, piracy, tool

153 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:32am

"Tool Singer Defends His Lawn..."

I agree. He is a tool.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:37am

He's completely correct, and you know it Marcus.

Sad that it upsets you so much that you have to publicly whine about it.
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weneedhelp (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:40am

One tool writing about another tool. (Couldnt resist)
"but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it."

Um cant afford to do so? Is he living under a rock? So sad. At least he realizes he is an old fogey.

"I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it." - Interesting go on:
"So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem."
Damn. Thought he was going to say something great. FAIL.
Um toolie, we are in the age of want it now, get it now. If your labels cant deliver, than thats not our problem.

The technology is there to easily give your customers what they want when and how they want it with little to no expense to you. If you dont realize that and adapt, please go the way of the dinosaur, or just sit in your rocking chair with your blanket over your legs talking about the good ole days.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:42am

I think 'entitlement' is probably the better word. I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just sing a song, and you expect to be paid over and over for it, without having to do anything new.
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:42am

To claim that the cost of making music is limiting creativity is just weird...

This claim is baffling. Simply by scrolling through my FB feed, I can see this isn't true. If anything, more people are creating more stuff at an amazing pace.

CIP: Check out netlabel Aural Sects. That long list of output is less than a year old. And this doesn't even include the work that these artists have done for other labels, or released completely independently via Soundcloud, Mediafire or personal websites.

Also of note: nearly every album on that label is available for FREE.

I see nothing but creativity exploding and more people looking for a way to express themselves artistically, rather than sitting around bemoaning the supposed "death of creativity" that the internet has brought about.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:44am

Can we strike the word 'entitlement' from the dictionary yet? It's becoming a meaningless buzzword used to dismiss argument: "you don't have a real opinion, you're just speaking from an entitled position". Please.
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:44am

Re:
Wow. What a rebuttal. Concise and totally devoid of substance. It's like the world's tiniest Twinkie, with all the filling removed.
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Simon, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:45am

Remember
Remember kids, entitlement goes both ways.
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weneedhelp (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:47am

Re:
Typical AC. I guess you missed:
The real sense of entitlement is believing that you don't have to grow and adapt to changing technology, and that you can refuse to give your customers what they have grown accustomed to (and can get elsewhere) and expect them to stick around.

Did you even read the article?
Doesnt appear that way. IMHO this is one of Leigh's better articles.

"Increasingly I feel like someone needs to sit all these AC's down and explain to them that the internet is pretty awesome, and it isn't going away."
FTFY Leigh.
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Lord Binky, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:51am

You're doing it wrong...
"but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on"

I would think that it is somewhat obvious that you will not see the cutting edge creativity when you are sticking to the way you have always done it.

It is correct that "most people can't afford to do it." when speaking specifically about the super expensive and highly controlled production services that he is familiar with and likely thinks is "the right way" to go about making music. The real problem is that the world of music he was a part of is getting smaller because there are just so many more ways to do things. It is not a bad thing that many artists decided to go a different way to achieve their goals that does not require them to become indentured servants to a music label.
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:52am

Re:
Correct in what respect? That you can't get things you want at a push of a button? I push buttons to get things I want all the time. There are even services such as Paypal dedicated to reducing the number of buttons I need to push each time. That creativity is prohibitively expensive? I have less personal experience in that, but half my iPod is songs people made with their own equipment for the hell of it and released freely on Youtube, Mediafire or Soundcloud, so I doubt it costs that much. That creativity is dropping off? I'll admit I like a lot of the stuff from the 70's and 80's, but there aren't enough hours in the day for me to keep up with everything that's happening now. It's so ridiculous that I've found myself feeling nostalgic for things that happened a couple months earlier. So where, exactly, is he correct?
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Tim K (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:54am

It now costs to be creative??
but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it.

Since when does being creative cost money? I'm missing what creativity has to do with money, because last I checked even little kids can be creative and they don't have to pay someone to do it
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Swan, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:57am

Well, "respect" is indeed the wrong word to use, so I'm glad he didn't. I respect Keenan a great deal as an artist, I even own three albums from A Perfect Circle and two albums from Tool. However, to me, the quality production from established artists has steadily decreased, and newer bands that rarely get publicity from record labels are creating far better music that, in my opinion, is more worth buying.

As has already been mentioned, Keenan equates spending money with quality production... they're not the same thing. I helped fund a band on Kickstarter last year so they could get some studio time to produce an album because I really liked the few demo songs they had out. They ended up producing a really great album that has turned out to be one of my all time favorites. You don't have to be rich to produce a great album. People that have the same thought process as Keenan are being left behind in the digital age...
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bob, 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:57am

Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Hah, the EFF and the other astroturfers for Big Search are the ultimate lawn guards. They've grown accustomed to the leaky way that the web handled content and they've now developed elaborate philosophical models that justify why they're entitled to take whatever they want, whenever they want it. If you don't give it to them immediately, they squalk and squalk about "artificial scarcity" or some other idea they picked up from some professor with tenure.

Innovation? They hate it and call it DRM. They're stuck in the 70s when FTP was invented and they hate the idea that anything different than anonymous FTP might come along. They like the idea that search engines haven't changed since Alta Vista came along.

And if the BSA, the RIAA or the MPAA show up to defend their rights, whooo boy, do they scream and yell with entitlement.

Take a look at who started the EFF. They're folks with grey beards who believe that the web should be just like it was when DARPA was paying 100% of the freight.

Then look at the youngsters like Louis CK. They're embracing paywalls and new techniques that help the crowd actually fund new content. It's the geezers who are the creator haters.
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xunker (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:02pm

My issue is not with his nostalgia, but with his perspective that his argument is unassailable because YOU ARE NOT A ROCK STAR.

And until somebody has actually written a check to record their own record and see everything that goes into it, they don't really understand...

Here is the translation:

* I am a person with property of X.
* You are a person who, for all intents and purposes, will never have property of X.
* My argument is based on X.
* Because you do not and cannot have X, your perspective of my argument is automatically invalid.

Get off my lawn, indeed.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:06pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
If you don't like the way the web was establish, then get off. We don't need you.
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chad holbrook, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:07pm

Tools being Tools
I am a huge fan of Tool and Perfect Circle. However, the only thing that Maynard James Keenan seems to hold in more contempt than religion or California is his fans. These are the lyrics from his song "Hooker With A Penis" (I hope this
is fair use):

All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.

I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.

.......

All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar

So...Shut up and

Buy my new record
Send more money
Fuck you, buddy.

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/tool/hookerwithapenis.html

-chad
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:08pm

I'm not entitled to the air I breathe, but I have a right to it. Likewise, I have a natural right to ignore IP law and copy as I please and anything or any governmental body that wants to impede my right better have very darn good reason. So far, I see no good reason for their impediment.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:08pm

Maybe he used entitlement because he's referring to the "Entitlement Generation" (Dictionary.com link,Wikipedia- though someone has edited out the reference to "Entitlement Generation because they found it offensive), those people who don't respect copyright law, those people who think most laws don't apply to them. Those people whose mother and fathers treated them like precious snowflakes who could do no wrong. Those people whose parents argued with school administrators who tried vanely to enstill any sort of discipline into their lives. Not everyone in Generation Y is like this, but generalizations exist for a reason.
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ComputerAddict (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:09pm

"you get what you want when you want it."

This is the exact idea that we dreamed about as kids... And I bet that these artists did too...

Instant Delivery, 'Wonka-Vision' for those that are old enough to remember the 1971 movie. No more waiting for UPS/Fedex, you want something, you print it, at home... products, toys, food, whatever. Apparently while engineers were moving forward at break neck speed with new technologies that allowed instant home delivery (of content in this case) the business majors were in their dorm rooms playing X-Box and getting drunk (my own real life observations, and I am neither an engineer or business major).
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:09pm

So...

Where can I get a legitimate download of Tool music? Love the stuff.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:09pm

Re:
(and that reason must be in my best interest, not in someone else's. You don't sacrifice my rights only to serve someone else's interests in return for nothing).
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Colin, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:13pm

Wait, I thought the argument was there was too much "white noise" out there so we need studios and labels to make the "good stuff." But now there's nothing being made because people aren't creative and can't afford it? Which is it? I'm confused.
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Lowestofthekeys, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:14pm

Re: Re:
Agreed, but when you said "push of a button" it made me think of this- http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/02/10/placebo-buttons/
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Lord Binky, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:15pm

Re:
That's the funny thing, the new artists now are truly writing the check* to pay for the costs of everything without being funded by a major record label. Because the new artists are not relying on a record label they're also being price concious and getting the most for their money which usually involves more work for them. Maybe they don't OOOooh and Ahhhh at the work of others making a record, because they did it themselves instead of shelling out money to others to do the work, coincidentally disillusioning them to what the hell they were actually paying for.

* Ok, so their actually using their debit/credit card, i doubt they have check
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MagusGothica, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:16pm

Creativity
"Then there's his perception that there is less creativity today, and at least he acknowledges that he's being nostalgic, because he's certainly not being accurate. The cost of creating, distributing and promoting music have all fallen drastically, allowing musicians to bypass gatekeepers and resulting in more music being made, and more financial opportunities for artists, than ever before."

I don't believe that's what he was trying to say at all, and I think you've skewed his quote a bit. The issue isn't that people aren't creating things. It's that MORE people are creating things, but the things they're creating pretty much all SUCK. The popular musicians of this generation have gotten famous, successful, and wealthy off of no-talent, no-effort pop garbage. Which inspires other creators to create the same crap. We've reached a point where quality no longer matters. People keep talking about how there are way more people creating, but quantity doesn't equal quality. And if making music with computer generated beats, lyrics with no emotional or intellectual value whatsoever, and Auto-Tune so you don't have to even actually sing, if that's what's getting people rich and famous these days, that's what everyone else is going to do. Especially since millions of retards worldwide are lapping this worthless shit up.
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dlayzer (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:18pm

I can't imagine why you wouldn't welcome any change, my friend. - Maynard James Keenan
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:19pm

This is sad...
He has always presented himself as a very bright, well informed individual in the past and for that I have always held a lot of respect for his commentary on a wide variety of topics. I'm sad to say that he has lost some of that respect and I'm pretty sure I am far from being the only fan that holds has this feeling.
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Tim K (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:20pm

Re: Creativity
It's that MORE people are creating things, but the things they're creating pretty much all SUCK.

That's your opinion, but obviously lots of people don't think it sucks, and I don't see why that's an issue, just because you don't agree with it.
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timmaguire42 (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:21pm

Ahh...yes, entitlement...again
Where do people keep getting the idea that they should be able to buy things that other people claim to want to sell them?

Why, just because the shopping model of pushing a button has existed for years and has become widely used, should people think they ought to be able to buy things by pushing a button?

Why shouldn't Mr. Keenan offer something for sale, but not in any way his eager buyers want?

Next thing you know, wackos will be claiming the customer is always right or that customer service matters.

Crazy talk.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:22pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Today's proof that bob is a moron:
"They like the idea that search engines haven't changed since Alta Vista came along."
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:23pm

Re: One tool writing about another tool. (Couldnt resist)
46 and what?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:26pm

When is one of these fogey's going to set up a PayPal account, put a donation link on their site and say, "Hey listen internet people. If you've ever downloaded our music and liked it, pay what you will directly to me. Click this button as well as the one you did to download our music. Further, go out to one of our gigs. Buy some of our merchandise. Support us directly."

At least then they could actually make an effort to engage besides just calling people criminals and poo-poo-ing the internet. They might just be amazed at what happens.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:27pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Uh bob, DRM isn't innovation. Innovation ADDS value for the user.
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Memphis Slim.ru, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:33pm

He needs to hang out with Trent Reznor and Thom Yorke.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:35pm

Re: Tools being Tools
I forget where it came from but there is a story behind that song. Allegedly it is about a kid that showed up backstage and made some comment about the band selling out because they were becoming popular. I never got the impression that it was his attitude toward fans in general.
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Tim, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:36pm

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
Regarding the partial quote used in the article, if you listen a bit further he goes on to give the example of the business of winemaking: a friend of yours enjoys a wine and tells everyone how much they love it and you say 'well I want that' but you can't just take it. But with music, you have a mindset that you can just take it because you want it. Which is why I think he used the correct word 'entitlement.' I'm as guilty as anyone but I feel like I should defend him since he'd never do it himself.
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weneedhelp (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:37pm

Re: Tools being Tools
"I am a huge fan of Tool and Perfect Circle."
Its like that totally hot chick, gorgeous long hair, blue eyes, big boobs, long legs, then she smiles at you with three teeth.

Big letdown and I wont look at them the same anymore.
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Capitalist Lion Tamer (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:44pm

Re: Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
This game is so innovative I can't play it without a persistent internet connection. Hallelujah for DRM!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:45pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
You sound like a broken recording industry.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:45pm

boils down to you freeloading twits don't want to pay for content, but yet you want it anyway so you illegally download it, you have the sense of enetitlement, the artitist would like to be paid
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:49pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
You sound like a broken recording industry.
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TDR, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:53pm

Re: Re:
Egon: Let's say this Twinkie represents the normal amount of discontent people feel toward the legacy entertainment industry. According to this morning's sample, it would be a Twinkie 35 feet long weighing approximately 600 pounds.
Winston: That's a big Twinkie.
Ray: We could be on the verge of a fourfold crossrip! A popular uprising of incredible, even dangerous proportions!
Venkman: Hey, everyone, we just had a visit from the MAFIAA Protection Agency. How is everyone holding up?
Ray: Not good.
Venkman: Oh?
Winston: *to Egon* Tell him about the Twinkie.
Venkman: What about the Twinkie?
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earbits, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:55pm

Re: Tools being Tools
It's not contempt of his fans, it's contempt of those who would call him a sell out for evolving in style or trying to earn money from his craft. You conveniently left out the entire first part where the hypocritical fan tells him he's an OG fan and that they sold out, while he's sipping Coca Cola, wearing Levi's, and basically has sold out every aspect of his being to corporate brands. He's basically saying we all sell out in this world, you in particular, so shut the fuck up.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:56pm

I blame my parents for my sense of 'entitlement' ...

When I was little, my parents taught me to share things... If it was something I only had one of, then I gave up some of my time with it ... when there was plenty for everyone, then everyone got some. Good boys and girls share with others.
Now that I'm an adult, I'm being told I can't share things because the "creator" says so (okay, so it's not really the creator, but some big media gateway)... There's enough for everyone to have as many as they want... but I'm still not allowed to share. Sharing is bad!

You'll have to excuse me if I'm bothered by having what my parents taught me thrown back in my face.

Even so, I buy a lot of those shiny plastic discs ... and I don't share my toys anymore with the other boys and girls.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:57pm

Re:
the artitist would like to be paid

We consumers would like a product worth paying for.
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hegemon13, 20 Mar 2012 @ 12:58pm

Really?
"The current state of music, I'm sure there's a lot of creative stuff going on out there, but there certainly isn't�of course, I'm being nostalgic�but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it."

Really? As compared to what? I grew up in the 80s and 90s, when everything on the radio was a cookie cutter of everything else. Compare that to the huge, broad variety available now. This is, hands down, the most creative age for music in my lifetime, and maybe ever.
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Overcast (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:01pm

I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it. So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem. So it stems from there. And then things like file-sharing and the Internet kind of lend themselves to that mindset.

It's not about 'free' sir - it's about the fact that - with JUST ABOUT ANYTHING you can basically click and order it - no problem. But not music - getting music off the web is harder than getting tools off the web.

I can go to multiple sites and order tools, appliances, electronics - with a few clicks and they'll be at my doorstep - music isn't that easy, but it should be.

The assumption that everyone who wants music to be available in an easy to consume fashion and for a fair price on the web is a thief is insulting to "would-be" paying customers.

I say "would-be" because digital media is WAY overpriced. I can buy used CD's for a fraction of the cost of digital media and that's legal - like it or not.

As long as consumers feel like they are being 'shafted' on the cost - don't expect sales.

Would you go out and buy something you think is a rip-off? If you have the money to burn - go for it, but most consumers don't - and even many that do - aren't willing to waste it.

Tell me again - why I should pay $15.00 for 15 digital music tracks when I can head to a local store and buy a used CD for $1.00 - $5.00?

How is $15.00 for something that's not even a physical good worth it?

I can pay $15.00 a month for unlimited MMO gaming, or another movie channel - much more value than 15 songs.

The media industry is just used to shafting consumers and they don't like the fact that they will need to change from 'rip them off hard' to serving up large quantity for the same price, but if the prices were a "deal" - people would gobble up media like no tomorrow.

Doesn't anyone remember the CompuServe/Prodigy vs. AOL battle in the early days of the web?

I never got CompuServe or Prodigy - they were a rip off... Then AOL comes out with unlimited and look where they went. Sure - after time, they waned too, but it was because the market just didn't support a large central ISP like that once DSL and better became popular, since the Telcos had that under their thumb.

CompuServe - few may even remember the name.

Why?

One main reason: Consumers felt like it was a rip-off.
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cabal (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:02pm

Re:
In case you can't see it through your rose colored glasses, kids were rude and entitled in the "good ol' days" too. You boomers are infamous for flaunting the traditions of your parents. You committed crimes, and rejected the establishment. You writing treatise like 'Steal this book'. You invited terrible chemicals in to your bodies and called it spirtual growth. You flaunted your sexuality and begat a scourge of STDs across the country. Then you sold out and bought in with even more vim and vigor than your parents.

And funny enough, the world didn't end. And if you felt 'enttiled', well guess what: You WERE. Want to know why? The YOUNG are entitled to the future. By definition it belongs to them. As for the 'entitlement generation' you and yours embraced your entitlement and passed it on. If you don't like it, don't blame us. We didn't get a lot of choice in how we were raised.

tl;dr Your lawn. I'll stay off it now. Our interwebs. Will you do us the same favor?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:03pm

Re: This is sad...
Really? You don't think that maybe dismissing him because his opinion doesn't align with yours is a little juvenile? I mean, you admit that he's bright, and that he's made a wide variety of commentary that you agree with. You wouldn't even attempt to consider his point of view?

What's troubling is that you would dismiss his points rather than stopping to engage these thoughts yourself. This is, after all, a guy who got odd time signatures into primetime rotation on MTV. That is no small feat. Tool went platinum multiple times over by sticking to their guns and remaining out of the limelight in the late '90s, when being a top-selling act meant you were connecting with a vastly greater number of people than the top-selling acts of today. We're talking tens of thousands versus tens of millions. ("CwF" for real)

I'm not saying that just because Tool was successful that it implies he's correct. But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags.

I know what it's like to worry that you're being led down the primrose path; that you'd rather continue believing that you're right than considering the realities presented by those actually working and earning in a specific field. The people who tell you the things you agree with are so nice, while those who disagree are so mean and out of touch. How convenient! What luck that they divide so readily. (Reminds me of a Louis CK joke: "How convenient that every musician on TV is attractive! I would figure there would have to be some ugly guy who could sing... but I guess not.)

This is the primrose path. The idea that an "anything and everything you want, whenever you want it" culture is in any way sustainable... well, down this path madness lay. I think it's a downright irresponsible notion to tout. Perhaps the most irresponsible kind of behavior because it's rippling effect through culture is so very hard to undue. The people who spout this rhetoric target kids, who are highly susceptible to such suggestive spin and promises of some fantasy future. But just as the notion that "You can be whatever you want to be when you grow up!" is entirely unrealistic and statistically impossible, and therefore comes as a blow to young adults, the realization that the present is suffering for an imagined future will be a painful wake up call to many soon-to-be adults. Tomorrow is always a day away, kiddies. Remember your history.

Some of those who preach this nonsense are themselves kids who don't know any better; the same kids who think "awareness" solves problems. But sometimes, and this is the vibe I get here, it's the agenda of someone who is thinking "Who can I screw? What can I steal without being caught?" The kind of mentality that has put the world economic climate in such a sorry state. You know who profits from free content? Those who control the distribution channels. I don't imagine collecting royalties from some Valley tech start-up will be any easier than getting them from your label.
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artp (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:09pm

He's right... and so am I
I appreciate his argument. It has been valid for millenia.

Unfortunately for him, he seems to have a sense of entitlement when it comes to using this thing that the Digital Age has invented called the Internet.

If you want to use digital media, accept the fact that copying is inseparable from it. Otherwise, it's like he wants to ride public transportation, but he doesn't want anybody else on it with him.

Accept copying, or don't use digital media. It's as simple as that.

Signed,
A grumpy old codger - and no, the Internet does not belong to the young.
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Greevar (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:13pm

Re: Get off my lawn indeed
I've gotten the same attitude from game artists when I try to explain why their adherence to outdated models (they bitch about infringement and perpetuate the same disproved concepts) are inherently flawed: "You have no idea what you're talking about because you're not us (game industry artists)." It's a symptom of people whom can't think outside of what they've been told is the way things are. They can't imagine there could be any other way than the way it is now. They don't want to imagine it. The old way is comfortable and change is hard.

These are people who don't want to improve themselves. People who want to improve themselves realize that everything changes and to get along you have to be ready to change with it. You can't learn one way to be and then sit on your laurels for the rest of your life. You have to be prepared to change with the world or you'll be left behind. We are trying to move forward and these dinosaurs are trying to hold us back because it's easier, familiar, and predictable for them. They are failing now because they fail to realize they need to change. They have nobody to blame for this but themselves.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:15pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Stupid professors and people who built the internet! How dare they hold back our innovative DRM? What do they know, they're just tools for BIG SEARCH!! This is some extreme trolling right here.
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Ninja (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:18pm

Re: Re:
Which means he excelled at trolling. The troll is strong with this one.

And the Twinkie is strong with this Capitalist.
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:21pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business

I'd like to clear this up once and for all: my opinions on music, creativity and the industry have nothing to do with my own music hobby.

Yes, I occasionally make some music for fun. I have zero intention or hope of it making me money or gaining me a bunch of recognition. That's not what I do it for (and I'm well aware that the music I make has extremely limited appeal, and is pretty amateurish in a lot of ways). It's a hobby, and it's fun. That's all.

I don't identify myself as "a rapper" or as "a musician" or even as "an amateur musician". I'm a writer/designer/developer/marketer by trade, who just happens to record a tune here and there for my own satisfaction and that of the
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Ninja (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:22pm

Obscurity is the worst enemy of any creator.

Who is this guy again?
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Leigh Beadon (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:23pm

Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
(html fail - comment continues)

...my own satisfaction and that of the few who give a shit.

If you're evaluating my opinions based on me as a musician, you're doing it wrong. My opinions come from being a lifelong consumer of music, and someone who has been paying close attention to the development of music and related business models in the digital age.
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DCX2, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:25pm

Re: Creativity
I see people bitch about autotune a lot. In particular, lots of folks target Kesha for using autotune.

The thing that gets me is that most artists probably use autotune themselves, but they do it in subtle ways that make it non-obvious.

Kesha goes out of her way to max out the autotune. For her, autotune is just another instrument.
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DCX2, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:33pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
(Tool = every album, PLATINUM)

Wonder if that would have been true had the labels not paid radio stations to blast Sober et al on the air waves.

The idea that an "anything and everything you want, whenever you want it" culture is in any way sustainable... well, down this path madness lay.

Bullshit. Look at the success of iTunes, Amazon, Netflix, etc and tell me that culture is unsustainable. I dare say the old way - forcing you to drive to the store which has limited inventory - is unsustainable as our population continues to grow.

Seriously, think about this for a moment; which of the following is more sustainable?

a) Everyone has to go to National Record Mart in order to purchase the latest Tool album. Probably looking at an hour of your life driving to there, browsing, paying, and driving home. And that's if there's even an NRM near you; you might be driving even more if the nearest one is far away.

b) Anyone can to go iTunes in order to purchase the latest Tool album. It takes only a few minutes to find the album and have it downloaded to your PC. And all you need is an Internet connection.
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
We've come a long way since the days we needed to keep the CD in the tray.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:39pm

Re: Creativity
I bet if you were born 30 years earlier, you'd probably be holding your nose up at that abomination called a "synthesizer", wouldn't you?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Talk about nostalgia. But hey it still is useful as a cup holder!
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:53pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags.

Why? Seriously, that he has expertise in how to sell records in the old environment means absolutely nothing about whether or not he knows what he's talking about under today's environment. Why would you think that it's at all relevant?

The idea that an "anything and everything you want, whenever you want it" culture is in any way sustainable... well, down this path madness lay. I think it's a downright irresponsible notion to tout.

Again, why? Unless there's an unstated "for free" in your statement somewhere, then I can't at all see the logic behind this assertion.

If there is an unstated "for free" in your assertion, then you're not understanding the issue at all.

But sometimes, and this is the vibe I get here, it's the agenda of someone who is thinking "Who can I screw? What can I steal without being caught?"

You and I are apparently reading different blogs, because the vibe I get here is more along the lines of "how can I stop these companies from screwing me?"

By "screwing" I do not mean "charging money". I mean all the efforts of the *AAs that are actively harming our rights as citizens, whether they pirate (or indeed, even listen to music and such at all) or not.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:57pm

Re: Really?
Yes, this struck me, too.

The period of mainstream music from the '70s until today has, with a some exceptions, been a wasteland. It was horrible before Tool and is no less horrible now.

However, there is more excellent and wonderful music being made now than at any time that I can remember in my life. It's just not coming through mainstream channels.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 1:58pm

Re:
He's a Tool.
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RadialSkid (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:00pm

Re:
Let me just some up the argument I think we would end up having...

Shill: "Artists need to be paid!"

Me: "Then let them get a job."

Shill: "That'll give them less time to make music!"

Me: "Then they can stop if it's too difficult for them. Someone else will replace them."

Shill: "Why do you think you're ENTITLED to free music?"

Me: "Because the music I listen to is free."

Shill: "Only because you're STEALING it."

Me: "No...nothing is being stolen, or even pirated. I don't listen to retail music. Period."

Shill: "Why won't you just buy music?"

Me: "Because I would never sink so low as to pay money to a record label."

Shill: "Yet you're addicted to their content!"

Me: "Sorry, I don't listen to retail music. So if I'm not listening to it, why the hell should I pay for it? And why the hell should my internet access be jeopardized based on false flags and/or forced legislation?"

Shill: *crickets chirping*

...and so on and so on...
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:04pm

true...
kids now, even adults, are entitled little bitches. Even worse is sites like this try to morally justify piracy, like it's not a bad thing, and bands should be making the money necessary to support their music by selling stickers, or some unusual scheme. The quality of music has suffered, there is no longer music of depth or value.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:09pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
I didn't say that I don't respect him anymore or that I will stop listening to him. I listen to a lot of artists I don't agree with. Some of them even openly align themselves with organizations (like PETA for instance) that I personally despise. That doesn't mean I don't respect them musically or even in this case politically on most things. I said I lost A LITTLE respect for him. I still respect him for all of the things you mentioned and I DO believe TOOL embraces CwF and RtB. I never said that they didn't.

The only problem I have is that for all of his commentary about how important it is to evolve and grow, he is now defending the perspective of those who REFUSE to do just that and actively pursue policies that have little regard for anything but their own greed. He railed against "smiley glad-hands with hidden agendas" and now he is defending them. THAT is why I said I lost a little respect for him. His commentary is usually more progressive and this is the antithesis of progressive.
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:14pm

Re:
My God, you're right! Thank you for helping me to notice my own flaws, so that now I can work on correcting them. I'll go get on Kickstarter right away so I can give my money to artists!

Oh, wait, never mind, I was already doing that. Or did you just mean the artists that you think should be paid?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:19pm

Re: He's right... and so am I
Can we get a "PS - Now GET OFF MY LAWN!" ? :)
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:22pm

Re:
Who said we don't want the artists to be paid? It's the "ticks and leeches" in the Content Cartels that take all the money from the artists that we don't want to give our money to. We have no problem paying artists that deserve it.
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bob, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:22pm

Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Go to it. Prove them wrong. Build a great game in your spare time and give it away-- without adding all sorts of in-game commerce that forces people to pay to score. Teach them the way of the future because this time it's different.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
And by the way...

You know that part "where just you click a button, you get what you want when you want it"? There's a word for that. It's called INNOVATION.
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gorehound (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:33pm

Re:
He and the rest of his sell out RIAA Clowns.
Next time you need a tool here is one for all yer needs.
plug it in and watch it vibrate away.
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artp (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:38pm

Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
Someday, I got to figure out just what "Get off my lawn" really means.... ;-)

Is that like the old fogeys (older than me) in the Woodstock movie complaining about all the hippies cluttering up the neighborhood?

Or maybe it's like all those people who see my farm, and decide that since it isn't being used, and God made it anyway, then they can take whatever they want?

Life is so complex!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:39pm

Re: true...
The quality of music has suffered, there is no longer music of depth or value.

Back in my day the internet was delivered to your mailbox by a human being! Music was made by guitars and Skrillex wouldve never left the math team and he wouldve been a chem major.
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Like these guys?
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:43pm

Re: true...
Even worse is sites like this try to morally justify piracy

That would be bad, if this site actually did that.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:52pm

Re: Creativity
I hate to remind you of the uncomfortable fact that many bands and individuals got rich in the 60s,70s and 80s churning out no-effort pop music. Go find an old K-Tel collection and you'll find it there, any genre you pick.

Most pop music never has had much in the way of lyrics with emotional or intellectual value particularly the latter as that's not the reason people listen to it or want to listen to it. Singers didn't have to sing back then either because producers would splice together a number of takes of the vocal tracks so it sounded like the singer actually hit all the notes right, pre AutoTune Autotune.

I'm not going to bow to your superior tastes in music and ability to judge it because I just don't care. People are connecting to music for some reason, usually emotional, and it that's not up to your standards too bad. That doesn't make them retards except somewhere in your mind.

Both you and Keenan remind me of the old men I listened to as kid who kept saying how hard they had it, walking to school up to their hips in snow, barefoot with only baloney sandwiches for lunch. They were full of crap then and the two of you are full of it now.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 2:59pm

Re: Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
I always envisioned it as the one of the elderly half senile old men in the neighborhood when we were playing as kids that would come out waving a cain and yelling if one of them happened to step on his perfectly manicured lawn (see: Hank Hill only much older) which was that way because he didn't have anything better to do than work on it.
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Baldaur Regis (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:01pm

Re: Re: Tools being Tools
Not to be obvious or anything but Tool, Perfect Circle and three-toothed women are best appreciated while being stinking drunk.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:02pm

Re: Tools being Tools
And I'm pretty sure his contempt is more specifically focused on LA than California too.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:08pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
"Take a look at who started the EFF. They're folks with grey beards who believe that the web should be just like it was when DARPA was paying 100% of the freight."

Hey apparently bob is one of those people that thinks the Internet is a "big truck that you can dump things on." bob, it's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes!
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Togashi (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:26pm

Re:
I don't think you can. They're definitely not on iTunes, the Zune Marketplace, or Amazon.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:29pm

Re: true...
Well, bands have always made money by gigging, selling t-shirts and, yes, stickers. They sure as hell don't get much, if any, from the labels.

As we've said if the labels would at least figure out that the market has changed and actually sell into it instead of holding on like grim death to a model that worked pre Web and complaining bitterly when the market wants to get the music, can't then gets it any way it can.

If you can't find depth or value out there these days it's not anyone's fault but your own. There's lots of it there.
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Togashi (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:31pm

Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
I really wish Tool albums were available as digital downloads. I like their music, but I have less than zero desire for more shiny plastic discs. So instead of listening to their stuff, I'll just listen to the countless other groups I like that do make their music available digitally.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:32pm

The mirror of entitlement reflects both ways.
He feels entitled to get prices that reflect the expenses of producing a physical good. That needed to be shipped around the globe, pass through many hands before arriving to the consumer.

The internet, it is not a fad - it is not going to go away or change the simple fact that digital distribution is here.

Your not getting enough money, look to your label and contract. See the clause about subtractions for album breakage. Look to your label calling it a sale when they sell it on your behalf, while calling it a license when they want to try and force consumers to pay again for the same thing.

It is not entitlement to expect in a world where one can press a button and have the great works of the masters at their fingertips that your latest recording is somehow magical and needs special releases and editions everywhere according to the release spreadsheet made in the 1950s that involved moving product by pony express.

Instead of calling your fans thieves, maybe look at the label trying to keep making the same money they always made when the business model has radically changed. Your fans get hurt by your labels silly rules. You want more money, talk to your label and demand better more transparent accounting. Force your label to get the product to where the fans can get it, and not give them a reason to look to alternatives. Or believe the label hype that your not getting paid because your "fans" are stealing from you. Then wonder why your making even less as your "fans" become ex-fans who think you are a giant tool.

Stop looking at how "Rockstars" are "supposed" to live, and learn that all things change. Then wonder why your label has enough money to pay for lobbyists to sue your fans, collect money, and never pay the "artists" they are so worried about. Someone is stealing from you, but its not your fans or people downloading.
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[citation needed or GTFO], 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
The sad part is that even though what you say is fact, all future arguments these "people" come up with will have forgotten (or snidely ignore) that you've said this.

It's just like how new people haven't fully realized that Leigh = Marcus yet. They're going to keep attributing that "you're a musician" just because you have "crappy music" (their words, not mine) under your name.
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Togashi (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:40pm

Re:
I don't want to pay for content? ...Did I forget to renew my Zune Pass? Last I checked, I was still paying $15 a month for that.

I would love to (legally!) obtain a copy of Tool's music. I'm already paying aforementioned $15 monthly so that I can listen to as much music Microsoft has access to as I want, plus download 10 DRM-free MP3s each month. However, Tool has zero digital presence. So, instead of them getting some of my money and me getting to listen to their music, I listen to one of the other countless artists available to me. If Tool ever moves away from shiny plastic discs, I'll listen to them instead of forgetting them in favor of my other options.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:40pm

The people with the money generally are entitled. The people who want the money generally try to cater to their customers. Seems to work just about everywhere else. What's not to get?
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Togashi (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:54pm

Re: true...
The quality of music has suffered, there is no longer music of depth or value.

Funny, Nightwish's new album, out January of this year, is one of the best albums I've heard. (In my opinion, of course.) The whole thing comes together to tell a story, and it does so with amazing writing and musical execution.

Good music will continue to be made, no matter what. There will be people with the talent and passion, and the hounds of hell will not keep them from doing what they love. Will they make a living from it? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how good they are, how much people like them, how well they promote themselves, etc.

Do I think piracy is justified? No. Do I think piracy will ever go away? Again, no. Trying to pretend otherwise is simply denying human nature and ignoring the lessons of history. There is no reason a creator can't plan for that, and even use it to their advantage. There's not a set formula for doing so, but someone who actually cares about their fans will find a way. I'm fine with losing people who make music to make money. I'd much rather have people who make music to make music, with an added bonus if they also happen to make money.
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vegetaman (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 3:59pm

Commentary
Cool, a story I submitted got posted! Since I think it is relevant, I will post my comments I did on the blabbermouth piece here as well:

"Right... But, on the flip side, look at the price of digital goods versus the price of physical goods. People expect to be able to use their products across all of their devices by only buying something once... The genie is out of the bottle, and whining about it isn't going to fix it. I still like buying physical CDs, personally (I prefer to buy them from shows at merch tables), and will do stuff like iTunes as a last resort. And I can't necessarily blame people for wanting stuff immediately, the problem is that there isn't an easy way for them to get the high quality music, legally, in a DRM-free way. People don't like strings being attached, either. If you're selling a product, you have to tailor to the consumer, unless you've cornered the market or something... I'll blow money on STEAM all the time, because they offer a service that I enjoy for a great price, and their sales are phenomenal. iTunes sales? Pfft, what? At least sometimes Amazon runs sales on physical CDs, at least."
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TDR, 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Bob, you're one to talk, given that you and the parasitic middlemen you support have less musical ability than Milli Vanilli. At least they could dance.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:09pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
Quote:
But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags.

Most if not all great innovator from the past and present are full of gumption, Einstein a mere patent office clerk was lecturing other giants on how the universe really worked, and then there is DaVinci the bastard son of a wealthy man who was educated in arts with a reputation for never finishing what he started that lectured others on how to build some mechanical marvels and had the gumption to study anatomy WTF!, Carl Marx for better or for worst was a drunkard that couldn't have a hold on his finances and he still wrote about economic theory, Mendel was a monk or something like that if I recall correctly, the theory of evolution came from a fellow that had his expedition paid for by his father at his 20's.

The point being, it doesn't matter what one does, did or will do. The truth is the truth and trying to attack the person and not the arguments underlying it is what people call ad hominem(Latin for "to the man" or "to the person").

You try very hard to discredit Marcus as to try to make the facts he states sound less, but the only idiot here is you.

Nobody is buying that load of crap about "entitlement" if anything else the only people who feel entitled are artists like the "Tools" that want to hold an monopoly forever and don't care what happens to the rest, it is increasingly clear that those idiots that call themselves artists hold a view that the world own them something, we the world should correct that faulty logical fallacy just by ignoring it.

If all people need to do to harm you is to ignore you, than your business is in trouble.

Copyright is optional, always has been and that will never change, people can choose to respect it or not, and by giving me and everybody else reasons to ignore it I can't see how that could possibly be a good thing for people who depends on that crap or think they depend on that crap to survive.
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JMT (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:22pm

Re:
"...those people who don't respect copyright law, those people who think most laws don't apply to them."

Way to stupidly conflate two different things. I know copyright laws apply to me, but that certainly doesn't mean I have to respect them.
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Greevar (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Bob, you're a perfect example of what I just said.
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JMT (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:36pm

Re: Re: This is sad...
"You wouldn't even attempt to consider his point of view?"

The news here isn't what is being said, but who is saying it. What Keenan said is nothing new, we've all heard the same complaints from long-established acts many times before. Personally I see no need to "consider his point of view" because I already have, numerous times, and have come to the conclusion that in my opinion he's wrong.

"But when Marcus, a rapper who makes no money and has little recognition, has the gumption to believe he can lecture Keenan on the business (Tool = every album, PLATINUM), that should throw up a lot of red flags."

"You're not a real musician, so you can't comment on the music business."

"You're not a movie maker, so you can't comment on the movie industry."

"You're not a lawyer, so you can't comment on the law."

"You're not a... blah, blah, blah..."

Yeah, heard all that before too, and it's a crock of shit.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:48pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
The 70s are the Ultimate Paywall.
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The Groove Tiger (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 4:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Great games are the Ultimate Paywall.
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atroon, 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:07pm

"So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get what you want when you want it, we're gonna have a problem."

He apparently doesn't remember another senior musician, who notes that while you can't always get what you want, if you try, sometimes, you get what you need.
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:10pm

Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
And when you are a blah blah blah then people just ignore you. Not being in their field just gives them an easier out. If people don't want to believe you they'll find some reason not to.
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Gwiz (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:19pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Or these guys:

http://www.planeshift.it/about.html
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Torg (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:25pm

Re:
It's a shame you're so late in the comments; this really deserves a LOL tag.
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TtfnJohn (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 5:51pm

Re:
Most don't remember it because it was popularly known as Compu$pend. ;-)

I sat out all the noise around AOL vs Prodigy/Compu$pend because both seriously limited my ability to get around on the Web unlike what I got from my ISP. As long as I was doing dialup at 48K I wanted to go where I wanted to go, not where they wanted me to go.

And yes, eventually the Telco's got DSL to work to the house over 1000 ft and the Cablecos got their high speed up and running, even if it slowed to a crawl between 4-7pm when everyone got home at first.

Even back then you could order tools and appliances and they'd get delivered. Even then there was a ton of file sharing going on though mostly text, short video clips and the odd song.

If the "content" industry had any sense at all they could see the present day coming. After all, even pre DSL days they'd send rushes from Vancouver to LA across T3's using the Web.

Back then the Web was something retail couldn't make head or tails of. They couldn't figure out that building a brick and mortar like mall site wouldn't work, though Lord knows they tried. They couldn't figure out why their intrusive ads didn't work or would lead to nasty letters to advertisers.

Almost all of retail eventually got it with a lot of stumbles along the way Google figured out how to serve ads without pissing people off. The rest of the advertising biz figured out the web isn't television and we don't have the same tolerance for animated dancing bears.

Amazon, bless or curse them, basically reinvented the mall for the web.

But the "content" industry just didn't get it and still hasn't. Instead of making music and film easy to get at prices people will pay they've hung onto outmoded ways of doing business and the times people could get things they felt ripped off by the prices.

It's not as much that people expect to get what they want at the click of a button as the market (people) expect vendors (the *AAs) adapt to how they want to shop rather than adopt to them. When it didn't happen it went underground. The market will get what the market wants. Pure and simple. Where there's a demand someone, somewhere will fill it.

To be honest I'm astonished that the "content" industry itself didn't fill the demand years ago. Instead they chose to fight the new marketplace. That's certainly their privilege but instead of effectively wiping out "piracy" years ago by supplying the demand they didn't. Now, I suspect, they've made so many enemies in that marketplace they can't sell into the market under their own name even IF they finally get it and the supply is there when someone wants to click the button to get a Tool record.

That's not entitlement, it's supply and demand and the way markets work. Yes, the artist(s) want to be paid. And so they should be. But instead of blaming people file sharing perhaps they should blame their labels. In fact that's who they ought to blame.

Instead some sound like old men who decry the better days when they were young and look back at something that never was. If Keenan wants to sell on line go for it. If he wants to make money then do it and if his label won't he should be jumping up and down screaming at them. Not longing for "the good old days".
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khory (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 6:14pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
"They've grown accustomed to the leaky way that the web handled content"

How is it that the web should be responsible for handling content? And who exactly is the web anyway?

"Then look at the youngsters like Louis CK. They're embracing paywalls and new techniques that help the crowd actually fund new content."

Are you telling me that someone found a way to make money on the internet? They can fund the creation of new content too?? Someone at the MPAA/RIAA should give him a job so he can show them how to do that too!!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 7:11pm

Re: Re: Creativity
You forgot to add "uphill... Both ways"
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silverscarcat (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 7:37pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Funny, I could have sworn you had a point somewhere, but you lost that when you said "Big Search".

Please unplug your computer from the internet and call your local police officers to remove you from the world and try again later.
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silverscarcat (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 7:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Get off my lawn indeed
Ah yes, bob loses another argument.

That's, what? 800 losses and 0 wins for you, bob?

Trying the flawed argument of "Let's see you do better!", for shame, for shame.

At least TRY to be more interesting next time, okay, bob?
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silverscarcat (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 7:47pm

Re: Really?
Early 90s country music was legendary for the sheer amount of great songs that were on the radio.

When I was growing up, I changed between 2-3 different radio stations for country music all the time because the commercials sucked and the music was just awesome. I could do that all day for weeks at a time.

Now-a-days I'm lucky if even three good songs in a row come on the radio anymore.

that being said, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying my personal experience.
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 8:15pm

Re:
hmmmm as much as I disagree with this AC, and the comment in question is silly, he's entitled to his opinion, no need to report him.
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 8:17pm

Re:
exactly! who would pay for... this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0

My ears!!! D:
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 8:30pm

Re: Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
You know, I think this bob guy is actually saying all this stuff ironically, as a sort of satire, shrouded as the act of a troll or some such other controversialist. Basically a very immersed type of troll. I think that's the only way to explain what we hear from this guy... I really don't see how anyone takes him as serious.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Mar 2012 @ 8:37pm

Re:
People who don't respect copyright law are heroes dude.

Seriously who in this day and age would respect a granted monopoly enforced by a government?
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 8:39pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
Don't see what your trying to point out here...
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Babylon Drifter, 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:00pm

Re:
Thanks for the heads up! I'll definitely check out their stuffs.

BD
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:02pm

Re: Re:
Yeah with the upcoming "6 strike plan" and the content industry wanting ISP's to assume everything from a cyper-locker is "illegal" then there goes my source for free music on mediafire or rapidshare. And by "free music" I mean music that is actually "free" not "free-because-I-pirated-it".
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BeeAitch (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:04pm

Re: Funny-- I see the pirates as get-off-my-lawn kind of people
Wow.

I mean... Wow.

You really are a retard.

P.S. I really am sorry for offending all the developmentally challenged people of the world for comparing you to them.
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:07pm

Re: Re: Really?
Might just be taste in music, considering most radio stations all play the same "top 50" music nowadays I don't blame you! You have to realize though that because of this the general radio channels you get in your car only plays a small small percentage of all music out there. Radio stations aren't the hub of "new music" they were in the past any more, that roll has moved onto the internet.
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Watchit (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:08pm

Re: Re:
agreed, this comment is pure gold.
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BeeAitch (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 9:30pm

Re:
Try here. They're definitely legitimate.

Wait, did you mean "official" or "legal" maybe? Sorry, can't help you with that.

Ask Maynard, maybe? If he's not a tool, he might point you in the right direction.
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That One Guy (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 10:15pm

Re:
If nothing else they've got truly trippy album covers, and their music so far seems to be worth checking out, so thanks for the heads up on an interesting band.
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Just John (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 10:55pm

Re: Re:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19722_7-scientific-reasons-youll-turn-out-just-like-your-parents.html

Need to check reason 7.
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Just John (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:25pm

Re: This is sad...
I agree. I still love his music, and have both bought it (originally) and now illegally downloaded it since I cannot find it in Taiwan and it was not possible to bring my entire CD/DVD collection with me when I moved here (Two suitcases, overpacked, for your entire life doesn't leave much room), but it is sad to see him move from the thought provoking artist he was to the regurgitated garbage catch phrases that **AA keeps throwing at us.
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Just John (profile), 20 Mar 2012 @ 11:34pm

Re: Tools being Tools
I think the song "The Grudge" fits the entitlement of the **AAs.

Wear the grudge like a crown
Of negativity
Calculate what you will
Will not tolerate
Desperate to control
All and everything
Unable to forgive
Your scarlet letterman

http://www.lyricsondemand.com/t/toollyrics/thegrudgelyrics.html

All of their BS has nothing to do with making money, they know how to fix that. It has to do with control, which is what their current battle is, disguised as a battle against piracy.
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[citation needed or GTFO], 21 Mar 2012 @ 12:40am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
Meh. It doesn't matter. No one will remember these comments after the next big argument comes up. :3
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 12:59am

I think, just in general, our society has gotten to the point where you just get on a vehicle with a motor, you quickly get where you want when you want. So until we get to a point where we realize you don't necessarily always get where you want when you want, we're gonna have a problem. So it stems from there. And then things like automobiles and paved roads kind of lend themselves to that mindset. So, some day, hopefully, we'll adjust that perspective ... And until somebody has actually raised their own horses and see everything that goes into it, they don't really understand how they're damaging the horse industry...
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Prisoner 201, 21 Mar 2012 @ 1:02am

Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
Wine being a scarce resource and data being non-scarce is of course irrelevant.
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Prisoner 201, 21 Mar 2012 @ 1:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
You have not been murdered, so don't come here yapping about "the negative aspects of being murdered".

Sheeshh....
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zach, 21 Mar 2012 @ 2:10am

Maynard even wrote a song about how he sold out. Seriously, he just wants money and has made that completely clear
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PaulT (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 2:26am

I own all of Tool's albums, but because most of my listening is done via my Spotify account nowadays I rarely listen to them. For whatever reason, they're not on there and so whenever I fancy listening to them while out and about with my iPhone (which only has podcasts stored locally), I listen to another band - who get the share of my subscription instead. Clearly I'm not about to buy another copy of the album just to listen to, so they are literally refusing my money by not being there.

There's problems out there, but they're not piracy.
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PaulT (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 2:38am

Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
"he has expertise in how to sell records in the old environment"

Or, more correctly, the label he was signed in had that expertise at the time. He's an excellent musician, but that has bugger all to do with the sales tactics used. He may have been involved, but the success or failure of a band need not have anything to do with the band itself when they're signed to an entity who controls their destiny.

"If there is an unstated "for free" in your assertion, then you're not understanding the issue at all."

Indeed he doesn't.
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PaulT (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 2:46am

Re:
Oh, and as pointed out by someone upthread, the albums are not available to download legally here.

So, he complains about people being "entitled" but then refuses to offer people his music in the way they want? This is like trying to sell an album in his heyday but only offering it on 8 track, then whining when nobody wanted to make him a millionaire. Moron.
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:03am

Re: Re:
I think it's the whiny, unnecessarily insulting way he totally failed to add anything of substance to the debate other than "I think you suck neener neener!"
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:18am

Re: Re: Re: This is sad...
Small point: you are mixing up Gregor Mendel, the monk responsible for our theory of genetics, with the rich man's son Charles Darwin, who came up with the first full theory of evolution (along with Alfred Russel Wallace).

Otherwise +1 to all that!
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:20am

Re:
Seriously, good idea. Be interesting to see how it'd work. They'd be worth rewarding just for the chutzpah, even if they fundamentally didn't like the digital age.
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hegemon13, 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:26am

Re: Re: Re: Really?
Exactly. Although I'm lucky in that we have a station that is very heavy on indie music and plays a huge variety. Still, I generally discover new music through recommendations and new releases on MOG, and I have found a lot of amazing music (to me) that never hits the radio.
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:27am

Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
"PS - Now GET ON MY LAWN!"
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 6:28am

Re: Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
Now that I think about it, it would be rather creepy if some old codger were to yell that instead of the more customary version...
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 7:05am

Re:
CONTEXT. The song wasn't about him selling out. He was responding to a hypocritical CLAIM that he sold out with a "Yeah! So what? Take a look at yourself" sort of response. BIG DIFFERENCE.

Also I was VERY CAREFUL in my wording earlier when I explained why hearing this made me sad and that I lost a little respect for him. You have to pay attention to what he DIDN'T say as much as what he did. Although he regurgitated SOME of the typical spew of the Content Cartels, he DIDN'T advocate the adoption of draconian laws that infringe on the public's Constitutional rights. He didn't defend the other abuses of the gatekeepers. He merely expressed that he felt that file-sharing was bad because he felt that people have become used to getting so much of what they want when they want so often that in his opinion they don't respect where it comes from or how much goes into producing it. To attribute those other things to him and lump him in with the lot of IP abusers is a little unfair even though his statement on it's face (maybe even unintentionally) supports them. I respect his opinion even though I don't agree with it. I would love to hear him comment on more specific parts of the issue such as the Constitutional aspects as well as the fact that the media is trying to buy laws to support their special interest. Then we would know where he truly stands.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 7:09am

Re: Re: This is sad...
See. I KNEW I wasn't the only one.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 7:11am

Re:
Fitting indeed.
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This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 7:22am

"but it doesn't seem like there's as much, creatively, going on, 'cause most people can't afford to do it.""

Dude is in the business, has worked very hard, for a couple of different bands that have been VERY popular, and that give some of the best shows you will see.

I tend to believe him over Marcus.

It's not a question of entitlement (that is a true strawman), it's stating the obvious: once you remove the money from making music, many of the people who were making a living making music can't do it anymore. They have to do other things to pay the bills, so we lose that creativity.

Yes, modern tools mean that any idiot (like Marcus) can call themselves an artist or a rapper, but the reality is that I would trade a million Marcus-likes for a single new Tool album. I would rather have a system that pays Tool to make more new music, than a system that pays for more of Marcus type stuff.

It's not a matter of taste (ie, if I like or don't like rap, example), it's a question of letting talented people do what they do best (in Marcus's case, that would be vacuuming Mom's house).
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 8:06am

Re: Re: true...
I played pirated Nightwish at my wedding, I've only ever bought one album, but my wife and I will absolutely go and see them any time the opportunity arises (and have done).
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Niall (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 8:10am

Re:
You were doing so well until the last two paragraphs with the unnecessary ad hominems. Get back to playing (with) your Tool in your Mom's basement!
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Michael, 21 Mar 2012 @ 8:52am

Re: Creativity
"The issue isn't that people aren't creating things. It's that MORE people are creating things, but the things they're creating pretty much all SUCK."

The major labels are in no position to critique or ridicule independent musicians. Independent artists have much better music and products to offer their fans. What's more, many indie artists have been offering their music for free (GASP!), hence why major labels are so desperate to censor the internet: The lousy "music" they offer cannot thrive in a truly competitive atmosphere.

"The popular musicians of this generation have gotten famous, successful, and wealthy off of no-talent, no-effort pop garbage. Which inspires other creators to create the same crap."

Believe it or not, not every musician is influenced by major label garbage. That the major labels have been pushing so much atrocious music on the general public is all the more reason for independent musicans to be proactive.

"We've reached a point where quality no longer matters."

If you're talking about people who are using music as a launching pad to stardom and fortune, i.e. major label acts, then yeah, I'd say quality certainly takes a back seat. But the same doesn't hold true of everyone else.

"People keep talking about how there are way more people creating, but quantity doesn't equal quality. And if making music with computer generated beats, lyrics with no emotional or intellectual value whatsoever, and Auto-Tune so you don't have to even actually sing, if that's what's getting people rich and famous these days, that's what everyone else is going to do. Especially since millions of retards worldwide are lapping this worthless shit up."

The premise of your rant is too narrowly focused on the uninformed. Again, not everyone cares about the garbage being offered by the major labels. Expand your horizons a little.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 10:13am

Re: Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
BTW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_off_my_lawn
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 10:14am

Re: Re: Re: He's right... and so am I
Actually I meant from him since he was as self admitted "grumpy old codger". :P
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JesseL (profile), 21 Mar 2012 @ 10:19am

He should know better
You would think Maynard of all people would know better, what with the trouble he had with his early record label. He purposely made Opiate just so he could squeak out of his contract.

He is partially right though. Mainstream music has lost all creativity, but it isn't piracy that's causing it, it's the labels themselves. I can't listen to the radio without 10 bands playing in a row that sound exactly the same. All owned by the same label, and all have their songs written for them by the same 65 year old African American woman.

Independent music has exploded, and it's baffling that he's so out of the loop. Puscifer was made specifically to break out of the box, you would think he would break out of the "labels good piracy bad" box.

I just went to a concert of four nerd-core rappers, Adam Warrock, MegaRan, MC Lars, and MC Chris. The one thing I can say about them, is they sure as hell are creative.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 2:30pm

Re: He should know better
I agree. So much of mainstream airplay is dominated by pretty, young, impressionable singers and assembled groups of singers with some vocal talent that are then manufactured images and enticed by the fame and fortune carrot to release shallow vapid formulaic content provided for them and are treated as a disposable commodity to be used until the next one comes along. It's been this way for quite some time.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Mar 2012 @ 11:17pm

Jesus, won't you fucking shill with something not entitlement?
Jesus, won't you fucking shill with something not entitlement?

Why can't we not be pirates?
I just want to stream this again.
And why can't we buy your albums?
I just want to stream this again.
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Nicos, 23 Jun 2014 @ 11:32am

Re: This is sad...
If that's not overreacting I don't know what is. You don't even know the man. If you meant you lost respect for him as an artist, that's still petty bullshit because his comment in no way reflects what he actually creates. It's just a comment that he supposedly made. Ease off a bit.
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exe1, 1 Aug 2014 @ 8:03pm

money=content (or it should)
I have money. (Most) Artists want money for their music, movies, video games, software - whatever products they're creating/developing (including content such as those mentioned which all are or can be converted to digital content). I, as a customer/potential customer want to give you money for your product in a digital form so that I do not have to a)wait for a hard copy to come in the mail (3 days at least, usually more) just so I can then rip it to my computer in MP3 format to listen to on my computer, MP3 player etc. and have a useless disc lying around wasting space (sure, album are is nice and all that, but images and text can be downloaded too if I REALLY want that, but since I listen to most music while in my car or playing video games, that's probably not much use to me as my eyes are on other things) and b)do not have to be restricted in my PERSONAL use of said product(s) (no, I will not violate your terms of use, no public performances, no charging others to listen to my copy, no sharing/creating copies for others, no Bittorrent, Rapidshare or anything else) that might accompany the requirement of physical media (the antiquated data containers still in use for 'hard copies' of such content such as DVDs and CDs).

So yeah, I'm entitled as a consumer. A PAYING customer. To REQUEST that you provide the content you're trying to sell me in a format and purchasing/acquiring model that suits MY needs and desires. If you cannot or will not provide that, then guess what, I'll be buying someone else's albums on Amazon (in MP3 format with no DRM) and I'll be buying my movies on Amazon (in HD with DRM, but with reasonable restrictions that do not impede my fair use) or iTunes or Netflix or anywhere else that offers what I want in a purchase/use/licensing model that I am comfortable with for the price that it's being offered for.

If that is entitlement, then call me entitled. I just call it supply and demand and accommodating the needs and desires of the market (the expectations of the customer base).
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TheAfterman, 19 Jul 2018 @ 8:19am

Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 20th, 2012 @ 11:32am
But data is not music. Music is data, but the subset of data that is defined by music, and more specifically **good** (new) music is very much a scarce resource.
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