NYTimes OpEd Explains Why Infringement Isn't Theft
from the and-why-it-distorts-the-debate dept
We've argued for years that it's absolutely improper to call infringement "theft." Some, of course, have insisted that since copyright is so obviously "property", it's fine to call infringement theft. However, in a rather brilliant OpEd piece in the NY Times, law professor Stuart Green not only demolishes the "infringement = theft" argument, he also gives some of the history about how it came about:When Industrial Age Bob and Joe started inventing less tangible things, like electricity, stocks, bonds and licenses, however, things got more complicated. What Bob took, Joe, in some sense, still had. So the law adjusted in ad hoc and at times inconsistent ways. Specialized doctrines were developed to cover the misappropriation of services (like a ride on a train), semi-tangibles (like the gas for streetlights) and true intangibles (like business goodwill).There's a lot more worth reading in the oped piece, including references to research that shows that, no matter how many times you compare infringement to stealing, people intrinsically just don't believe it. Professor Green and his collaborator Professor Matthew Kugler have done some of this research themselves, where they point out that these language choices really matter. As you can sense from what they wrote about above, when you call things "theft" that have very different characteristics than "theft," it actually influences how people think about these things.
In the middle of the 20th century, criminal law reformers were sufficiently annoyed by all of this specialization and ad hoc-ness that they decided to do something about it.
In 1962, the prestigious American Law Institute issued the Model Penal Code, resulting in the confused state of theft law we’re still dealing with today.
In a radical departure from prior law, the code defined “property” to refer to “anything of value.” Henceforth, it would no longer matter whether the property misappropriated was tangible or intangible, real or personal, a good or a service. All of these things were now to be treated uniformly.
Before long, the code would inform the criminal law that virtually every law student in the country was learning. And when these new lawyers went to work on Capitol Hill, at the Justice Department and elsewhere, they had that approach to theft in mind.
Falsely lumping all of these specialized areas into the "theft" bucket leads law enforcement and politicians to take easy mental heuristics that have them assume that even if infringement is not exactly like theft it's "close enough" that you can treat it like theft and respond to it like theft. And that's exactly what we see happening. The legal proposals and constant changes to copyright law are all about treating infringement more like theft, and believing that greater enforcement leads to less infringement, and that greater "education" does the same. But that assumes that individuals intrinsically believe that making a copy of something is bad, even though in many, many cases they do not feel that way. Calling it theft when they know it's not theft doesn't convince people to stop file sharing. It just makes them respect copyright law even less, since it's clearly completely out of touch with the times and the technology.
The language choices used in this debate matter quite a bit, and it's great that the NY Times opened up its oped pages to someone who's done actual, detailed research on this specific issue.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: copyright, infringement, language, moral panic, stuart green, theft
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
If we don't necessarily recognize that it's inherently theft, then 'education' would over the long term work (as apparently it has done to these law enforcement and lawyers).
Perhaps that is why so many content providers believe that 'education' works, because apparently it already has on law enforcement and lawyers.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sure, he's researched whether it fits a normal persons definition of theft, he doesn't seem to have researched the wider issue though.
He quite happily goes along with the notion that "Illegal downloading is, of course, a real problem."
Despite the fact that there is no evidence to back up that claim, what reliable evidence there is suggests it is neither an advantage or disadvantage in general and in specific individual instances "piracy" has been shown to boost sales.
"People who work hard to produce creative works are entitled to enjoy legal protection to reap the benefits of their labors."
Given the stark lack of evidence of harm, that is spurious.
"And if others want to enjoy those creative works, it’s reasonable to make them pay for the privilege"
Make, as in force as opposed to inviting, encouraging or even offering in such a manner that leaves them wanting to pay.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
And lawyers tend to always go for maximum punishment, and maximum law squeezing, in this case making "infringement" into "theft".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
They are spot on but expect our usual critics to deny fiercely.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Language choice is an art form these days
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
But stealing is destroying creativity.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
If I promise you a job making half a millions dollars a year only if you treat infringement as theft, you'd probably learn pretty quick.
If you learned to trust authority (as most law enforcement officials do) and the authority tells you to treat infringement as theft, you accept that, never mind that the authority figure is only telling you what he learned after hobnobbing with those who lobbied him.
If you're power hungry, like most law enforcement officials and politicians, and someone tells you that treating infringement like theft is an easy way to increase surveillance while making it look you are looking out for artists and the economy, you learn really quickly to treat infringement as theft.
Education absolutely works.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The result counts. It's just like following a money in a crime - just look to see where the money ends up.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
The 'education' approach advocated by some copyright holders smacks too much of the 'War On Drugs' mentality: with the merest contact, you're doomed. Smoke a joint and you're doomed to shooting heroin; listen to a downloaded mp3 and next you're throwing your children through the window to get at the computer to steal Steal STEAL.
Hyperbole never works.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Fresh Air, Being alive, The laughter and chatter of happy children who are too far away for you to hear what it is they are saying or what they are laughing at.
Remembering a street performance you enjoyed, repeating that really good joke that Al from Accounting told you.
At some point we enter into an area where someone has decided that although it will do the orginator no harm if you happen to have a copy of and enjoy the thing they made; without making a payment to them that somehow, this is something, is a thing that you have no right to.
I claim the right to anything I see or hear, to enjoy or not at my own determination, I admit no right to someone else to control those rights of mine.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
"It's impossible to make a man understand something when his livelihood depends on him not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Because they aren't people. The are cops & lawyers doing the bidding of their masters to keep their jobs. DUH.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Take software patents for instance. They're often written by lawyers to be as intentionally vague as they can possibly get pass the PTO, knowing that will lead to a greater chance of a lawsuit. Settlement negations are good, but years long litigation is gold. They couldn't careless if the patent is a turd that eventually gets invalidated, even that guaranties years of billable hours.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[Insert response to troll remark here about how many hours people spend on the internet watching amateur cat videos]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
There I fixed it for you.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
Corporations and their shills are only in favor of the free market insofar as it supports their interests in fighting government regulation. If they can get a government-granted monopoly or a tax subsidy, they're all over the government having a hand in the market. They're like the old people on Social Security and Medicare saying that socialist programs are evil.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
I disagree. Some individuals swear to fulfill a position and the duties within that position. And though they may disagree with the duties defined in that position, they agreed to do a job.
CIP:
I have a friend through work that is a X-Marine. After discussing conspiracy type things(conspiracies to some, facts to others.)I asked him how he could keep doing what he was doing with all that he knew. He looked at me serious as a heart attack and said, "I agreed to do a job for my country, and put my personal beliefs aside to do the best job I could. Other service personnel depend on me to do what is asked without question." That was just about 6 years ago and I remember it word for word.
So to get back on point:
If you learned to trust authority...
Trust? Your boss tells you to do something, unless it goes against every moral fiber of your being, and you are willing to lose your career over it, you will do it.
"If you're power hungry, like most law enforcement officials and politicians, and someone tells you that treating infringement like theft is an easy way to increase surveillance while making it look you are looking out for artists and the economy, you learn really quickly to treat infringement as theft." - Still does not mean you believe in the lie, just you are willing to exploit it.
"Education" absolutely works.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
2. copyright infringement is not treated as theft the supreme court has ruled it so.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wrong Word
So no, the use of the word theft is not the problem here. The real culprit of this word crime is the word property. Once we fix the error of people thinking they can OWN a THOUGHT, then it cannot be stolen as it is no longer a single person or entity's holding to be stolen.
Aim for the head guys. Kill it, and the whole beast dies.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Wrong Word
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
According to the revisions of the entertainment industry, we have fewer rights than we actually have under the law because they pretend that fair use doesn't exist, that home copying for personal use is piracy, and checking media out from the library is a lost sale. The permission of the owner isn't the only authority as to whether something is legal or permissible. If it were just up to the copyright holders, every single use and copy would be paid for, fair use wouldn't exist, everything would be licensed to maximize profits and strip value from the sharing of our own culture.
Society, through its government, permits creators to have a limited copyright on their works in order to benefit society. Copyright holders (who are not always the creators) have just used government corruption to pervert this principle so that copyright lasts longer than a generation and copyright claims are able to be used to quell Constitutional freedoms such as the freedom of speech and the press.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
It's what I don't get - every argument comes down to some sort of justification for pirating stuff. Your whole answer is about WHY you (insert non-theft word here), and not why it is still illegal regardless.
Fair use exists, but it is pretty narrow, and in questionable circumstances becomes more of a defense than an asserted right. It still doesn't change one basic thing: You can make your own, you can "roll your own" and not have to deal with copyright holders - so why not do it that way instead of banging your head against the wall of copyright?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps he was giving the benefit of the doubt. Officials who know what they're doing is BS and do it anyway are corrupt officials.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Wrong Word
FTFY comrade!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
We would make our own, but the copyright maximilists are hell bent on destroying any technology that allows the masses to produce/distribute their own content. (see Viacom v Youtube).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Do they deserve to be compensated for their work? Yes, without a doubt, but they are going about it completely the wrong way. Selling copies of our culture, remixed, is of the most flawed ways to run the business. It was always flawed because it relied on the inability of others to make copies on their own (which the internet has obliterated). So the solution lies in shifting from selling the intangible results to selling the finite time and labor (like any common occupation) that it takes to make it in the first place. Just as Michelangelo was commissioned to paint the Sistine Chapel, rather being paid for a copy of the work, so should artists today seek people to pay for the effort it takes to transform culture into new expressions. It's the ability to create that we should hold in value, not to hold value to artificial units of imaginary "property".
If you haven't picked up on it yet, copyright is wrong in its application and in itself. Much less, infringement doesn't equate to "theft" on any philosophical level. Were you to call it theft, you must also hold it to authors for doing the same since they could not create were it not for the ability to take the works of others to transform and combine them into new expressions (they do, consciously or not). If it is theft we have committed, then so have the "artists". In order to get along in this new environment for communication, artists will have to let go of trying to control copying, since they never really had the power in the first place, and embrace a new model that thrives in spite or because of the unchecked propagation of culture.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
What is and isn't theft
"Copyright infringement" is the only term that can capture what unauthorized copying actually is, since a copyright grants me the right to control the copying of a work, and if someone copies something without my permission, they have infringed my copyright powers, but nothing has been stolen, since a new copy is non-rival. Someone stealing a copyright is rival, since only one of us gets the royalty payments (or one only gets more of them to the degree the other gets less) or gets to negotiate the move rights.
Whether it is morally justifiable to grant such a copyright is a question for another day.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
For the same reason my dog can't seem to figure out that the litter box is not a second dinner bowl...
Though to be fair, she did bark and bite the dude that broke into the house yet didn't make a sound when I gave my buddy a HD full of rips from all my DVDs.
I guess my dog is actually smarter than a cop or lawyer, who knew.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[citation needed or GTFO]
=D
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Except they're not. I'll entertain the possibility that I'm wrong, though. Please show me the law that defines this as theft.
While this sort of thing could be a factor, I think a bigger reason is that people who pirate don't see that they're depriving anybody of anything.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Examples of things in this broader, abstract category:
* plagiarism: claiming to have authored something that you didn't
* trespassing: being on land that you don't have permission to be on
* stealing in the concrete, narrow sense you're insisting is the only correct use of the word: taking a for-real physical thing someone else legitimately has, so that they don't have it anymore and you do, without agreement/permission
* fraudulent impersonation: pretending to be someone else in order to obtain a benefit you wouldn't have gotten if your true identity had been known by all parties (which I'm guessing you'd be angry at people for referring to as "identity theft")
What word do *you* suggest be used for this broader, higher-level, abstract concept?
(If you want me to stop calling copyright infringement "stealing", please try to work with me here: you've got to give me a better word for that higher-level, abstract, "umbrella" concept. Were those examples enough to get the idea across? Give me a better word for this superset and I'll strongly consider changing my vocabulary. Today, of course, I do use the word "stealing" for this concept.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
infringement-theft
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
I agree. Professional cats are always better than the amateur cats. They just seem more cat-like.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
It's sneaky, really.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
It's not about justification, it's about reality.
Say you made your living selling lemonade. It's a good living and you are happy. Then one day, someone comes along and sets up a table next to your stand and gives away lemonade for free. Now you have a couple of choices, you can either make your lemonade better, or you can try to stop the lemonade table from being near your stand. You try the second option, and several times the lemonade table is forcibly shut down by the authorities for hurting your business, or if there is no reason at the time they make up a new reason to shut it down, but every time someone sets up another table. At some point, you have to accept that you need to change because that table is not going away. Whether that table is right or wrong really has no meaning to you at this point. It is there and your efforts to get rid of it have failed. No apply this to the current situation.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
REFTFY
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Disney is a prime example of this mentality. They blatantly copied the works of others to use for their own profit and worked hard to make sure others couldn't do the same to them. So don't give me this load of bullshit that downloading is "theft". You need to realize that copying, transmitting, and receiving art is communication (a.k.a. speech) and it's ludicrous to think that anyone has the right to own and control speech. That's censorship on its face.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Or: (a) just because I call this stuff "stealing", don't assume you and I are "on the same side", and (b) would you kindly be less of a dick?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Perhaps I tend to lean towards the conspiracy theory side of things, but this has always struck me as a concerted effort by the legacy players to turn copyright infringement from a civil tort into a criminal one where the state foots the bill for investigation and prosecution.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
The only thing that's sneaky is your attempt to play semantic games to further your agenda.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
No amount of assertion can make a statement true. Either prove it with real facts or shut up. And no, anecdotes, flimsy analogizes and emotional tantrums are not verifiable facts.
The question to be asked is why, psychologically speaking, the populice doesn't associate file sharing with theft.
Because anyone with a bit of sense can see that it's not.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
People on one side tend to do what you did - see "somebody got something without paying for it", whereas people on the other side tend to see "nobody has any less than they started with".
Then the two sides go on to look either at the "unpaid for benefits" that the infringer obtained or the "losses that the rightsholder suffered" in order to decide how bad the act was. That's why you end up with the one side saying "he has songs that would cost him thousands of dollars to buy and he hasn't paid a dime" while others say "if he hadn't downloaded them, he just would have done without, plus he paid to go to three concerts last year - this is just advertising".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Copyright: the exclusive right to make copies, license, and otherwise exploit a literary, musical, or artistic work, whether printed, audio, video, etc.: works granted such right by law on or after January 1, 1978, are protected for the lifetime of the author or creator and for a period of 50 years after his or her death.
I believe when we combine these two words through a magical function of language that is called a phrase.
(a sequence of two or more words arranged in a grammatical construction and acting as a unit in a sentence.)
We find ourselves with "copyright infringement" which certainly sounds like what happens when one duplicates something which is protected by copyright. Doesn't sound like stealing to me!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
A: We would make our own, but the copyright maximilists are hell bent on destroying any technology that allows the masses to produce/distribute their own content.
-------------------------------
If I had money, I'd buy 1,000 billboards across America with those two lines.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
I was talking about the rights of the public to the public domaine, which IP maximalists have taken at the point of a lobbyist's sword on the high seas of legislation. We used to be able to make home copies for backup purposes, but the entertainment industry calls that piracy. We used to be able to bypass copy-protection for fair-use purposes, but the DMCA changed that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
I was talking about the rights of the public to the public domaine, which IP maximalists have taken at the point of a lobbyist's sword on the high seas of legislation. We used to be able to make home copies for backup purposes, but the entertainment industry calls that piracy. We used to be able to bypass copy-protection for fair-use purposes, but the DMCA changed that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
In a word? Stupidity.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Infringing upon the rights to distribution would happen when someone puts the file up for download through a torrent site. The theft part doesn't happen until someone illegally downloads the data.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Can you?.. Go on... We are waiting...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
If I copy my daughter's Itunes library; forward a ringtone I have bought for my personal use to my friend, I am guilty of theft.
If millions do it, and don't consider it theft, there is something wrong with the law or the defition of "theft".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Care to try again?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
I take something I have in my possession and let you make a copy of it I am sharing it with you. I take something of yours such that I have it and you do not with out your permission then we are talking about theft.
Now let's delve into your foray into the human psyche...
First, is unauthorized file sharing of copyrighted material infringement? Yes.
Is it illegal? Yes.
Is it a criminal matter. Yes. (Only because the industry illegally bought the laws to make it so, but that is a whole different argument altogether.)
Is it theft. No.
Part of what you said is actually correct. The words "steal" and "theft" DO have a stronger negative connotation than the word infringement and for good reason. They have a severity worse than infringement. To use the "theft" or "steal" for an act of infringement is to unfairly afford the negative attributes that it DOES NOT POSSESS. It is attempting to manipulate people by inaccurately describing one thing by presenting it as something else. In short, it is a lie, told to mislead and manipulate the public for the industries own personal gain.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Would you also be fine with the fact that all the people who could have interacted with your were also now no longer talking about it?
Quite the interesting prospect "copyright infringement is hurting our business, because we cant make money off what we're making. But you should just not acknowledge what we make exists if you wont PAY PAY PAY!" Sounds like a good plan.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
That's the problem. People have more options than what you allow for. Right or wrong, moral or immoral, legal or illegal. These are all irrelevant points to bring up. Primarily because they all differ from person to person.
The fact of the matter is people CAN do more than those three things you mentioned. That is a fact. You don't like it/approve. Also fact. But no one cares what you like or don't. Apparently, a majority of people think it's okay/acceptable or are indifferent. Which means the will of the people is not on your side and thus laws need yo be changed in the US to reflect the will of the people. Not corporations.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Quite an interesting thought experiment for the copying question.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
True. The thing that makes piracy not theft is that the law says it is not theft. Copyright infringement and theft are two separate things by legal definition.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Infringement needs lawyers because it doesn't make as much sense and as such people need to be convinced it is wrong. And that is where the lawyers come in because that is where they get paid.
If someone steals a DVD, no one questions it - they get slapped on the wrist and sent on their way. It's a nuisance crime.
Because 'stealing' a song is is not so straight forward, you need to make them pay $250000 and serve time in jail... because... well... I'm not sure.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
If you think it does have *anything* in common with those, and if you wanted some kind of word to talk about that broader group of activities in the abstract, to draw attention to the thing they have in common, can you suggest a word that we might use?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
He DOES mention CRIME or CRIMINAL, and makes it clear there is NOT distinction between something physical and someting intangable.
But he does say it is a CRIMINAL ACT !! he is right..
"theft" and "infringement" are weasel words, to make CRIMINALS feel a little better about the conduct of their CRIMES...
Masnick when are you actually going to make a point ?
Or provide your OWN ORIGINAL article ? why just copy / paste what others say.. are you devoid of original thought ?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: What is and isn't theft
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: What is and isn't theft
Way to go, you're a dirty, dirty thief. No better than a common file sharer.
See where stupid definitions get you? Smart alec replies. That's where
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
The greedy, selfish, abusive values of the FARMERS.
The greedy, selfish, abusive values of the AUTO WORKERS.
The greedy, selfish, abusive values of GOOGLE.
etc...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
It's still a crazy amount of video. That anyone can watch, for free.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's more than a handful.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
This is completely false. They are committing infringement -and then, ony if they are making their own copy. (For instance, buying a bootleg DVD is not "theft," nor is it in any way unlawful, as far as I can tell.)
It is not "theft," because theft requires that the victim not have the thing that was stolen. Likewise, "theft" isn't merely gaining or using something without the owner's permission, because then fair use would be "theft," and public libraries would be offering stolen goods.
The question to be asked is why, psychologically speaking, the populice [sic] doesn't associate file sharing with theft.
Probably because every single moral code says that creating abundance from scarcity is morally good. See e.g. the parable of the loaves and the fishes from the New Testament. When people are sharing files, they are doing nothing different than what Jesus did, morally speaking.
If the fishmongers and bakers went to the Romans and claimed Jesus is putting them out of business, that would not make the feeding of the 5000 less moral. It would make the fishmongers and bakers immoral.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Tell that to the idiots who think they are the owners of it.
Seems no matter how many times it's beaten into their heads they still never give up believing it. I guess they hope of they continue everything will suddenly change one day and be perfect copyright ponies & rainbows...
Sadly,
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
The first sale doctrine says otherwise. My copy is my property. Your copyright is an abridgement of my property right.
When you download something from someone who is not the rights holder or someone who has not be granted the authority to distribute the work, you are commiting THEFT. And no amount of hope is going to excuse that.
No amount of assertion can make a statement true. Either prove it with real verifiable facts or shut up. And no, anecdotes, flimsy analogizes and emotional tantrums are not verifiable facts.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Did I ruin your "research"? Do I get a cookie?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
We just want them to stop trying to deny us access to public domain works they have built upon.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Anytime you analogise something that's infinitely reproducible with something that's not only finite but is often in short supply, you look like a clueless idiot. You might want to avoid mistakes like that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Can you go around duplicating money and giving it away? Without legal repercussions?
Absolutely not. You're undermining the system of value. You're devaluing everybody else's labor.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Um, excuse me? These people get paid millions to make this shit upfront. I don't need to continue giving them tit afterwards, no other type of job I know of has this kind of toll booth mentality, and your telling me it's NOT greedy??
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Just so you know: many of those broader, abstract classes are not unlawful in any way. (Plagiarism, for example.)
Others are treated the same under the law ("theft, conversion, or fraud"), and the law intentionally treats copyright infringemet as distinct from them.
If you want to use "theft" or "stealing," then fine. Just be aware you're using it in the same way as saying someone "steals" your girlfriend, "steals" a glance, "steals" a base, or "steals" your thunder.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
A revelation
As such your happiness now has value.
The next time someone attempts to sue you for copyright infringement, making you unhappy, I intend to sue them for stealing what is now mine.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
What's your point?
It's like your saying that laws against assault are invalid because people still have the option to assault people. Well, duh! The option to assault is why we have a law against it. We don't pass laws to prevent activities that can't occur.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: infringement-theft
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Technology and acceptable practices have added "copy" to that mix. Which is the rather obvious thing and which he and yourself harp on about regularly.
Nor did I say, or even remotely imply, that laws against assault are invalid because people can still commit assault. I merely said there are more possibilities than he's allowing for.
But being obtuse and trying to spin something into something else are your strong points.
Now shoo. The adults are trying to have a talk. If you don't have a handle on basic reading comprehension, go somewhere else and when you've mastered the skill come back and join us.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: What is and isn't theft
Really? You mean downloading a song that sells for a dollar means I took a dollar from the copyright holder? And that if I downloaded 1000 songs, I took 1000 dollars? No, that ain't right. According to the RIAA, it's $100,000 per song, so that's really $100,000,000!
Well, if this money is real, and I actually stole it, where did it come from and where did it go? It didn't come from the copyright holder, as they didn't lose even a cent from their accounts or holdings. I didn't get it either, because I surely wouldn't see so much as a dime. I certainly couldn't sell those 1000 song for 1000 dollars. No wait, that's really $100,000,000 that I don't have nor could I get.
So, no one would really loose or gain any money. Oh, that's right, I would steal their copyright! No wait, they'd still have that too. Well, if no real money or property was taken, that only leaves copyright infringement.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Because they are the ones who first came up with the term. Downling v United States (1985). I believe that was the same case where they ruled copyright infringement (i.e. infringing on the copyright of another, or to put it simply for your simple mind... making a copy) CANNOT be equated with theft. Why? Because nothing was stolen.
Hmm. Wait. I just realized what you're saying. That the Supreme Court Justices who made the ruling are actually criminals and were just trying to justify and feel better about their crimes.
Wow. Darryl. Taking shots at Supreme Court Justices now. I'll admit, that's a step up for you. Usually your rants focus on Mike and make little to no sense. Emphasis on "no sense". Hmm. Me thinks you should ACTUALLY STOP AND THINK BEFORE YOU EVEN GET NEAR A KEYBOARD. Why? Because your stupidity is showing.
Not too mention the fact that this article is about a piece in the NY Times. An American newspaper. Weren't you saying just the other day that unless you live in and a citizen of a country and an event relating to said country you should not have an opinion? I'm pretty sure that was you in the ACTA article yesterday or the day before. I sense a great amount of hypocrisy coming from your direction.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
1. Rovio: Angry Birds being overly pirated in China (when it was originally unavailable there) created a super strong foundation for Rovio to come in and monetize the Chinese market, and they did.
2. The Grateful Dead: Discovered that by allowing their fans, called Dead Heads, to record their shows, it actually increased sales.
Now here are some examples of were extreme anti-piracy measures has had a negative effect on companies:
1. Ubisoft: need I say more?
2. StarForce: a game with DRM so bad it literally broke your computer.
3. Early Steam: In the early years of Steam the DRM was pretty spotty and often prevented players from playing games they had legally purchased, including on the release date of Half-Life 2. (Thankfully Steam is much, much better than it used to be.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: A revelation
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
God, you sound like Obama back at the start of his term criticizing other countries for not "helping" him to close Guantanamo.
If you want to use a different word to describe something that you already have the proper words for, that is entirely up to you, but you want a word to lump together, vastly disparate breaches of civil law with a breach of criminal law and you want that for only one reason, to make an infringement of civil law sound like a crime.
The only people who would "work with you here" for that would be people who like you also wish to use the wrong words to create a false impression just as Obama made clear that the only help he was willing to accept from other countries was if they agreed to treat people who had comitted no crimes and/or who had never been tried or been given any chance to defend themselves as if they were convicted terrorists and agree to imprison them in their countries so he could stop imprisoning them in Cuba.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Greedy? Maybe. Expecting to be paid simply because they paid for someone's work, however, is completely unrealistic. Unless they actually do something with the work that people want to pay for, then they shouldn't set their expectations very high. Expecting to get money for doing nothing but making copies, when everyone can do it themselves for free, isn't enough any more. Nor is anything else that completely ignores customer demands. And no, everyone doesn't want everything for free. Things like live shows and merchandise are still turning a nice profit.
Of course, that would require them to stop demanding the world to conform to their idealized vision of it and come to grips with reality. Once they do that, they can finally figure out what's actually profitable. There's a lot of money on the table, they're just standing at the wrong one while squawking that they deserve to be paid.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
However, he is fully entitled to judge quotes from a "nobody in Australia", because he can speak from a lot of experience.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Obviously there are extra legal and illegal options.
Laws can of course change, things we consider utterly immoral and definitively illegal now were once both moral and legal, such as slavery.
Things that were considered utterly immoral and definitively illegal are now both moral and legal, such as same sex marriages.
This happens when what is against the law does no harm to others and when what is lawful is actually harmful to others.
We don't envisage making assault legal, because it harms others, many don't appreciate ratcheting up laws and actions against people who individually infringe copyright because a lot of people suspect that no one is actually harmed by that and the facts seem to be supporting them there.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
patching into your neighbor's cable system to watch cable without paying for it? No. Providing transmissions over cable coax requires maintaining signal load and quality. Someone using a cheap tap can interfere with the service of paying customers.
piggybacking on someone's wifi without their knowledge or consent? No. This is just another form of trespassing. Not only does that use internet bandwidth--which may be capped--and possibly expose the all of the computers on the network to being hacked, it also makes the connection owner liable for intruder's online actions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
But wow. You nailed darryl exactly. I've actually seen him say things to exactly that effect before. It's just a bit hypocritical of him, he tries to force standards on everyone else (and judges them for spelling or grammatical errors) but he overlooks that he's being two faced about his positions and opinions and judgments.
I'm voting your comment funny and insightful though, just for how dead on you were about the "nobody".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
copyright
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The fact of the matter is, legal or not, there are plenty of options one way or another. But by stomping your feet and crossing your arms and saying, "NO!" you aren't going to accomplish anything. Which is my other point. People can now do more than what the AC approves of or the law says is acceptable. Some might not like that. Tough. Deal with it. But deal with it intelligently. Or keep pissing and moaning, but it won't get you anywhere just the same.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Sheesh, where on earth do you shop.
Most retailers don't MAKE you buy anything, they entice you to buy things, they try to make it as easy as possible for you to buy things from them. They keep stock on hand so that you buy from them because it's there rather than going elsewhere, if you are going to shops where they MAKE as in force you to buy things, call the police.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
They have, that's what the MPAA and their ilk are complaining about, people making their own access to current "culture"
Oh you meant a different thing, you meant everyone should make their own individual common shared culture.
Well in more and more numbers people are contributing to shared culture, but it is quite simply foolish to insist that people shut their eyes and ears to the parts of common culture that they don't and in some cases can't contribute funds too.
Once it is out there, it is there and nowadays available whether you or Mike or I or anyone else likes it.
People on this site, suggest how to maximise revenue in the environment that exists, beware of people who tell you they can maximise revenue by replicating restrictions that quite simply no longer exist. The people who push DRM are no more protecting your revenue than the gypsy selling lucky heather but they are a lot less honest about it. They won't help you increase revenue and they aren't interested in doing so, all they are interested in is getting their hands on a percentage of the revenue you do get, which in turns means you end up with less not more.
A great deal more revenue would be made if businesses stopped buying the snake oil and started following the kind of advice that Mike offers.
But if you are not convinced, I will spin on a dime and guarantee you that revenue can be increased by ignoring the current realities and I will show you how to do that, but first I have this bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell you and I can give you one hell of a deal on it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Are we discussing Hollywood accounting now? Shall we compare crimes?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
And you're right I did choose gold over money for a simple reason, I am fully aware of the legal status of producing counterfeit money. However my point was more that if one can suddenly produce more of *something* that is valuable and begins to do that, is that action necessarily wrong?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just like, just because you don't like flying pigs doesn't mean that pigs can't fly. Pigs can't fly because of things like aerodynamics, gravity, etc.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: “... that is not permitted by the owner.”
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: infringement-theft
>another one of your demos?
No, unfortunately they accepted it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
"infringement" or "infringement of rights"
Copyright implies that one has quite literally the right to copy something, when someone else creates a copy they are infringing upon the person who has the copyrights for the item in question.
There are no similarities in those things other than joining a wifi network without authorization or joining a cable network without authorization sound very similar to going onto someone's land without authorization. But the only real similarity between infringing on copyright would be that you're doing it without authorization, so I suppose if one wants to stretch really really really hard, we could say anything that one does without authorization is...unauthorized...
But no I do not think that infringing upon a copyright is theft of any kind. Its more akin to counterfeiting, even in its consequences, after all every dollar printed or every song given out, makes every other one of these things slightly less valuable, but that is still not theft no matter how one tries to spin it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
topless infringing
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
I responded to him, "And where are we getting this criticism from? Oh, that's right, a nobody from Australia."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
That is why people know granted monopolies are bad, because it stops others and since they are artificial not natural monopolies they can't adapt quickly enough to a changing environment and just like the dinosaurs those laws will become extinct in time.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
If not you paid them anyways since if you go out you paid collection agencies anyways, if you bought an HDD or a printer you paid royalties already.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
Criminal acts under copyright law have been an integral part of US law since at least as early as the Copyright Act of 1909.
Obviously, neither or these are "new" features of US copyright law.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: topless infringing
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
It's about asportation
Asportation is the actual physical removal or "carry away" in which a defendant must after having obtained property in question must also move it from its original position.
The US Model Penal Code totally eliminated the required element of asportation and only requires that any defendant exercise what is classified as "unlawful control" over that property.
This is why the US (and people who should know better) think that copyright infringement is theft.
Interestingly common law larceny (not to be confused with the Criminal Penal code) in The USA can not be committed against intangible things (or land) which includes identity, ideas, information, contracts, wills, and intellectual property though the paper upon which they are written is a specific larceny of that actual paper.
The misuse of some ones copyright is NEVER larceny and never the absolute common definition of theft that the common-man knows.
The problem is, as the article states, lawyers and police don't work on what the common sense approach means and instead can only work with what they have in front of them. In America that is the Model Penal Code.
I don't have to work with the US's Code, so to me copyright infringement is Never theft and NEVER larceny, though it's getting to the stage where it could be considered a type of conversion, but that's the subject of much controversy and PHD's
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Go for it, read it and be annoyed!
http://www.ultimateflame.com/
To any reply you have I say one word!
Ni!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
And what actual difference does it make for the rightsholder if people choose the illegal option and infringe?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just because you don't like the term oranges doesn't mean that apples aren't oranges. It seems you are taking personal offense to the term, maybe it's hitting a little to close to home for you.
Or maybe its because the term is wrong it bothers me ?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
The oped most certainly does mention theft. If you are just referring to the quoted section, then, um, learn how the internet works. They're called "links."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: What is and isn't theft
There is no such thing as "stealing revenue." Seriously, you should not comment on topics you are completely ignorant on.
It doesn't matter whether it is a copy, whether it has diminished the original in some way, or not. By obtaining that to which you are not authorized you have stolen something.
I hereby forbid you from visiting Techdirt again without paying Floor64 Inc. $25,000.
Next time you visit, you violate this contract, and you have "stolen" from us according to your logic.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: What is and isn't theft
Please learn the actual law before you open your mouth and remove all doubt that you are an actual fool and as uneducated towards the law as the average idiot.
I also notice that if you comment on this you have either payed the $25,000 to Floor4 or you are in breach of "theft of service" to which I personally will be happy to find an AG to charge you with same.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
what is it if not theft
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: What is and isn't theft
Sorry to be picky, but even that is not theft/larceny though it would definitely fall under criminal fraudulent behaviour especially if monies were wrongfully obtained through the commission of the fraud.
Interestingly since the USA now has instant Copyright on all works (no need to register) in conjunction with the rest of the world, the only way this can possibly succeed is if someone stole your identity which is another criminal offence on it's own.
Since it's inception copyright is really a legal exemption on the natural right of the public to own the ideas and expressions of humanity given to the author/creator of the work so that they have a LIMITED amount of time to exploit their work. That is why it's an infringement to go against some ones legal exemption (copyright) since it is Infringing on that exemption whilst that exemption is in place.
And since it is an exemption this is why Copyright is limited by time and has major qualified defences to any infringement of it that nearly always are to do with public/societal goals.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
As long as they don't do what they historically did for the old "trespass to person" and call it Assault (Battery). Could not imagine a worse scenario. You trespassed on my copyright, that's Assault of Copyright.. ACK!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: infringement-theft
The Recording industry is being Destroyed by its own anachronistic ineptitude
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
It's hard to prove third party hearsay that is backed by confabulation and wishful thinking when dealing with evidence and god forbid criminal attorneys/solicitors, prosecutors, and judges who don't want to set criminal precedents that could be used by other criminal cases such as Personal Violence offences and any others.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Well it works in Europe. Kind of... ;)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: What is and isn't theft
For that to be true you first have to prove that the revenue for the rights holder existed in the first place. As MANY people can attribute that what is downloaded would not have been purchased in the first place had the option to download not been available, the revenue simply did not exist in the first place and therefore could not have been stolen in these cases. This is the inherent flaw in the 1 download equals 1 lost sale argument.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120322/15404918215/we-dont-want-everything-free-we-just- want-everything.shtml#c1214
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
The media conglomerates are NOT the artists. They don't MAKE anything. They simply profit from it like parasites.
And since the majority Google's services are actually FREE to the public, how exactly is that related?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with anyone creating their own original interpretation of a work that resides in the public domain, even if their new work happens to involve the same subject as the work prepared by Disney.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Can anybody tell me...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Nobody has been saying stuff like "sure it's stealing, but people don't get sued for stealing a girlfriend or stealing third base, so why should they get sued for stealing music like this?". They instead most commonly say something more like "it has nothing in common with stealing, you're obviously a shill for RIAA and probably smell bad too, stop beating children".
You're the first to say "fine, use that word as long as you realize you're using it this way".
I need a word for this broader concept, where one unilaterally acquires goods or benefits without being entitled to do so, without specifying or implying anything else (such as "someone else loses something" or "all societies agree about the nature of the entitlement").
I've been using "stealing" for that. Some people are trying to get me to stop.
I'm willing, but not just because people who have an agenda assert that I ought to. If they'll help me out by suggesting a better word -- one that encompasses copyright infringement, bank fraud, plagiarism, trespassing, and beating up kids for their lunch money, because those do have *something* in common that I think is important -- then I'll use that word.
(And I'm not trying to say they're all "exactly the same", or even that they're mostly the same, or that they should be regarded the same, or remedied the same way. I'm just trying to say that they have a critical element in common: the element of unilaterally seizing a benefit that society says you're not entitled to have, which I think is important and often brushed under the carpet.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Forgot to Mention the Land-Grab
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Let's say you mow lawns for a living. You perform a task for which you expect to be paid for. Well, if you did it the way the content business does it, you'd go to someone's house, mow their lawn, and demand they pay you for the work you've done, despite there being no prior agreement to pay. They neither asked nor agreed to pay for your services, yet you did it anyway. Are they at fault for not paying you? Anyone with a brain would say "You should have solicited them first and secured an agreement to pay for services rendered.
If this is a service, then the fault lies with the content industry. They did the work before they secured an agreement to be paid for it. They effectively did the work for free for all intents and purposes. Actually, to be more precise, the artists did perform a service for an agreed payment, but with the publishers. The publishers then tried to sell that mowed lawn as a "product" or their "property".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Surely you cannot be so naive as to assert that Disney is somehow withdrawing something from the public domain.
Are you really making the argument that because what Disney has done with its creation you are no longer as free to use the same public domain material to create your own new work?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: infringement-theft
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
If you have the wherewithall to create your own original work based upon a work long ago created by the Brothers Grimm, which work is within the public domain, then have at it and take Disney on with your work, instead of trying to cut creative corners by using Disney's work as the foundation of yours.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
"Unilaterally" might be the sticking point here. The one infringing on copyrights has traditional property rights over his or her own copy. In order for infringement to occur, that person must willingly (though unlawfully) distribute copies of it to others.
In this way, it is entirely unlike every other thing that you call "stealing." The people who recieve the copy are not, themselves, getting anything without permission. They are not "stealing." For example, I don't know a single person who would call a someone who bought a bootleg a "thief," even colloquially.
In this case, it's the person who is gaining something by distributing copyright material that is the "thief." And, again, this completely falls down when talking about digital infringement - since most of it is completely non-commercial, and the people who distribute the material are not gaining anything.
In this case, "unlawful sharing" (or some variant) is really the only way to phrase it. I always use the term "unlawful file sharing" myself, or the (more general) "infringement."
But, I'll ask you the same question. What is the "broader concept" that you would use for someone, who:
- Buys a knock-off handbag?
- Buys "grey market" drugs from Canadian pharmacies?
- Makes a mix tape for a friend?
- Creates mash-ups?
- Writes fan fiction?
- Reverse-engineers software?
All of these are (or could be) infringement. In all these cases, "one unilaterally acquires goods or benefits without being entitled to do so." But I've never heard anyone at all call them "stealing."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
...which they did without permission of the original authors (or copyright holders); thus, according to your own definition, Disney are "thieves."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
By the same measure, has not Disney cut the same corners with their use of the public domain? Why are their works sacred over the works of those that are of the public domain? No, it's a double standard that they should be able to make use of the public domain and profit while no one is permitted to make use of the works they derived from the public domain to do the same. All art builds on the art of the past, to deny future generations to ability to do so because rich corporations want to define it as an immutable and distinct item of property is destructive to the progress of art, freedom of speech, and culture. It should be the act of creating that is the commodity being traded, not the results of a rearranged set of ideas.
"Having made a sizeable investment..."
It is wrong to think, due to their investments into those works, that they deserve any right to deny anyone the ability to copy, combine, or transform their works into new expressions. It doesn't matter how much money and time was put into it. That doesn't in itself grant them any rights or entitlements. If Disney can transform public domain works into new expressions, why should they have the power to stop people from transforming those works into new expressions? We stand on the shoulders of our ancestors so that they might help us to see new horizons.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Some of Disney's best known works are based upon titles accredited to the Brothers Grimm and available to all as public domain titles. Two that quickly come to mind are Cinderella and Snow White. Interestingly, even though Disney produced its own versions of these works, many others have done the very same. Just a few months ago two studios came out with individual versions based upon Snow White, i.e., "Mirrior, Mirrow" and "Snow White and the Huntsman". I do not recall reading any article that Disney sent either of the studios C&D letters because those studios had the temerity to create a Snow White movie.
Provide some specific examples where Disney has unlawfully appropriated another work and perhaps then we can then have a meaningful discussion.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Everything they did that was in the public domain:
The Little Mermaid
Sleeping Beauty
Alice in Wonderland
The Hunchback of Notre Dame
...etc.
Apparently, that's "stealing," since they got something they "don't have permission to have, and obtained in a manner that is not permitted" by the original copyright holders or artists.
According to that definition, of course, fair use is "stealing" too.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Disney loses suit over Good Times' 'Aladdin' Video
I'm sure I could dig up more, if I had time.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Why it seems to bother you that Disney chose to create a work based upon a title fully within the public domain, just like everyone else in the US is entitled to do, eludes me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
As for "stealing", a word that is repeatedly dismissed here as misleading and inaccurate, one cannot "steal" that which is owned by no one, i.e., copyright no longer pertains to the work.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120329/02304318285/nytimes-oped-explains-why-infringement -isnt-theft.shtml#c2520
You also (repeatedly) completely missed the point of why people were referencing stealing. People were responding to an AC that asserted infringement is akin to stealing, not necessarily claiming it to be themselves.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120329/02304318285/nytimes-oped-explains-why-infri ngement-isnt-theft.shtml#c512
It's also odd that you insist basing your work on the Brothers Grimm is ok, but basing it on Disney works is "cutting corners". A bit of a double standard to say the least.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120329/02304318285/nytimes-oped-explains-why-infringeme nt-isnt-theft.shtml#c512
[ link to this | view in thread ]
...And so that that body of work will eventually pass into the public domain, so that everyone can use the works without restriction.
This underpins another point, which I don't think has been made in this thread. The only reason copyright is granted is so that society in general can use that "property."
It is a funny kind of property, where "stealing" it is the only reason it exists in the first place.
Hell, I've been doing a lot of this recently. I have a new smartphone, and I like to read books on it while I'm on the subway. I don't want to pay for these books, so I've been reaping the benefits of Project Gutenberg. I've burned through books by Jules Verne, H.G. Wells, and Arthur Conan Doyle.
I took something, without permission of the authors (or their families), and nobody got compensated for their labor. Am I then a "thief?" Is my phone full of "stolen property?"
one cannot "steal" that which is owned by no one, i.e., copyright no longer pertains to the work.
That is completely false. A work in the public domain is not "owned by no one," it is owned by everyone.
Without copyright, any person who owns a copy of the work would have a natural property right to do whatever they pleased with that work. That includes making copies of it, using it to create derivative works, and performing or displaying it publicly, whether for profit or not. Without copyright, everyone has the rights that are granted in 17 USC 106.
Copyright is a "negative right," a right of exclusion: it does not convey any additional property rights upon the copyright holder, only the ability to take away some of the natural property rights of everyone else.
Thus copyright itself is, in a very literal sense, theft. It is taking away property from the people it belongs to - everyone. It may be that society in general benefits by allowing this form of theft, which is the only reason this theft is legal; but theft it is.
That is the reason people are so upset with Disney. Disney has no problem using "property" that is "owned" by everyone - including the commenters. And none of the commenters here begrudge Disney for doing so; they have as much of a right to do it as anyone else.
But Disney does not want other people to have the same rights that it did, so it lobbied for laws that would allow its own theft from the public to continue. Notably, if the current copyright laws were in place when Disney started, the majority of Disney's source material would not be in the public domain.
It is Disney's hypocrisy, selfishness, and thievery that people are upset with. Nobody cares that they used works without permission or compensation, because that is copyright's ultimate goal; they only care that Disney won't allow anyone else the same courtesy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
Disney's original adaptations of such works are secured by copyright and, hence, are not freely available to all.
This distinction is hardly a difficult concept to understand; unless, of course, one subscribes to the position that all forms of copyright are an affront to society.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
But you have a knack for missing the point, it seems. Disney may still have copyright on their works, but this doesn't mean the case for why they should still have copyright over works that are over 40 years old is a sound one, or a logically consistent one. Particularly for a company for whom significant value appears to depend on a healthy public domain.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You'd be surprised...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Again, completely false. It is the absence of restrictions on property rights. It's just that those rights are common property rights, instead of private property rights. You can treat any work in the public domain exactly as if it was your own personal property. The only thing you can't do is prevent others from doing the same.
If property rights in public domain works didn't exist, nobody at all could do any of what is enumerated in 17 USC 106. Nobody would be able to copy, distribute, perform, display, or create derivative works to public domain works.
The government didn't "grant me a right" to download books from Project Gutenberg. I wouldn't need them to "grant me a right" to copy and distribute them, even for profit. There is not even a single statute that explicitly grants me the right to do any of these things. It is a property right that I naturally have.
Without property rights in public domain works, copyright would be nothing but a legal license to publish. That is anathema to an open society, and certainly not what copyright was ever intended to be. (Though, believe it or not, I've talked with a few people who think it is).
since the law no longer recognizes the right of exclusion conferred by copyright law.
The "right of exclusion conferred by copyright law" is hardly the only property right that exists. It's also not exactly what is granted by copyright laws - see e.g. statutory royalties, which eliminate the "right of exclusion" altogether.
If you want to get technical, copyright is not a "property" right at all. It's a "de jure" monopoly, granted by the government. Unlike the property rights to public domain works, that monopoly wouldn't exist at all if the public (through Congress) didn't create it.
It is treated as if it is a property right, because it legally convenient to do so. But it is not property, any more than Bell System's pre-1984 monopoly on telephone service made the phone lines Bell System's "property."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
I just thought of the perfect example, that I'm betting has been claimed in this very thread (though I haven't looked through it all).
You hear people, all the time, describe copyright as "the right to copy." That's not what copyright is.
Copyright is "the right in the copy." It is the legal right for copyright holders to dictate what can be done with copies that are not in their possession.
Without copyright, everyone would have "the right to copy." Publishers could sell books, labels could sell music, etc., and none of what they were doing would be against the law. On the other hand, nobody would have "the right in the copy." It's a crucial difference.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Just had to take a prolonged break at my wife's insistance. She went into our garage to grab a soda, and found herself looking face to face at a 3" black snake (harmless). Pleased to report it is now running free a LONG distance away from my home.
Back to Golan, if as you say works in the public domain are "owned" in common by everyone, then taking away such common ownership and vesting it in a single owner almost certainly is a Fifth Amendment matter which any common owner would be free to pursue as an "owner in interest". In fact, the plaintiff's certainly fit this category, and yet nowhere was this possibility even raised before any of the courts, and with good reason. It simply would not fly as a matter of law for the reason I earlier stated with respect to the legal status of the public domain.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your focus seems to be what happens once a copyright holder has made a copy, and then transferred possession of that copy to a third party (typically by license or sale). That is a different issue altogether and involves other legal doctrines.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
If a work is in the public domain, does nobody have the legal right to make a copy of that work?
No, of course not. Everybody does, including what would have been the copyright holders had the work not been in the public domain.
An example is "Night of the Living Dead." Because the distributor failed to follow statutory copyright laws, that film entered the public domain, where it still resides. Does that mean nobody is making copies of it? Hardly.
Dozens of publishers are exercising the exact rights that are granted to copyright holders exclusively in 17 USC 106. The only thing a copyright on that film would have done is taken away those rights. That's the only thing copyright does: it excludes everyone but the copyright holder from exercising rights that otherwise would belong to everyone.
Your focus seems to be what happens once a copyright holder has made a copy, and then transferred possession of that copy to a third party (typically by license or sale). That is a different issue altogether and involves other legal doctrines.
I don't know how you got that idea. My focus is on what property rights people would have in a copy if copyright did not exist. The answer is: all of them. Thus, copyright - by definition - is "theft" of property from the commons.
This is why traditional notions of "stealing" don't work with copyright. People generally think of "stealing" as "taking something without permission" or "taking something without paying for it." But this is exactly what happens with public domain works: you "take" something, without payment, and without permission of the authors (or original copyright holders).
And, in fact, such "stealing" is the entire reason that copyright exists in the first place. Copyright exists to grow the body of work that is available - freely, without permission - to the public. That's obvious when we're talking about works in the public domain. It's also obvious when talking about the idea/expression dichotomy: copyright exists so the public can "steal" the ideas in copyrighted works. (See Feist v. Rural.)
So, when other copyright defenders talk about "thieves," or "pirates," or "making money from the artist's work without paying for it," it's important to realize that the actions they're criticizing are precisely the actions that copyright is ultimately designed to encourage.
If copyright doesn't result in more of this type of "theft," then it is not benefiting the public, and the public (through its representatives) has every right to take copyright away.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
If you believe the 17 USC 106 rights are "property" that is "owned" by the authors, then you must also conclude they are "property" that has been "taken" from the commons.
They are not actually property rights - as I said above, copyright is actually a statutory monopoly that is treated as if it was a property right. But since nearly everyone talks about copyright in terms of property rights, then we should talk about the loss to the commons as the loss of property rights, too.
In any case, the Fifth Amendment only refers to private property being taken for public use. I already said the "property rights" in public domain works are not private, since they are not exclusive. Furthermore, copyright turns what was "common property" into "private property." Even though this is done to theoretically benefit the public, I don't think anyone would believe that qualifies as taking "for public use."
On the other hand, if Congress decided to do away with copyright altogether, that wouldn't violate the Fifth Amendment either.
Glad to hear your wife is OK. (I'll refrain from the obvious jokes about your wife and a '3" black snake.')
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Some would say that the rights are property that were taken away from the owners by force of law...
"Glad to hear your wife is OK. (I'll refrain from the obvious jokes about your wife and a '3" black snake."
LOL. Actually, this was a minor matter. About three years ago when one slithered into the shower and joined her bathing...well, that was something else altogether.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
That is in fact what I am arguing (if you assume the 106 rights are actually "property").
Unless those "some" believe that the public domain is "theft" from the authors. In that case, they would be wrong.
Without "force of law," there would be no copyright in the first place. The very first Supreme Court copyright case said flat-out that there is no "common law" copyright. The House of Lords said the same thing sixty years earlier (Donaldson v. Beckett). And these were the only two countries on the planet with copyright laws at the time.
It is against how people naturally act: people want to re-tell stories, share music with their friends, invite people over for movie night, etc. What is legally "copyright infringement" is nothing more than an extension of that.
They'd also be going against several major religions, who have flat-out said that creating abundance from scarcity (e.g. the Biblical allegory of the loaves and fishes) is morally good; and, conversely, that creating scarcity from abundance is morally evil. Copyright infringement does the former; copyright, itself, does the latter.
So, those who think the public domain is "theft" of the natural property of copyright holders, are going against centuries of legal statutes, human nature, and universal moral codes.
Not that it will stop them from saying that, of course.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
True. Nevertheless, it cannot be denied that in its absence there is a wide body of work that almost certainly would not have been created and disseminated to the public.
While "music" and "movies" seem to be the primary subject matter discussed here, there is a very wide body of other, unrelated works where the "incentives" do, in fact, "incentivize". Perhaps, rather than painting all types of works with a broad brush, it might be more useful to consider the many types of works that do fall within the subject matter categories associated with copyright law, and then ask the "incentive" question as to each of them individually.
On a final note, while we obviously do not agree on many points (though we do agree on many others), it is a distinct pleasure to engage in exchanges with one who has so obviously taken the time to give this subject much thought and who provides substantive, versus reactionary, comments.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Go figure....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Go figure....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Go figure....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
That is a very difficult thing to quantify. Certainly, there are many successful industries whose products are covered by copyright. But is that success due to copyright?
As a counter-example, let's consider the fashion industry. There is no question that the American fashion industry is a world leader. Yet, fashion is not covered by copyright. It is perfectly legal to copy someone's design and create a knock-off, identical in every way to the original (though trademark law means you can't claim it is the original).
This wasn't always the case. Back in the 1930's, a strict "no-copy" rule was enforced by the Fashion Originators' Guild. They said copying was unethical and immoral, and called it "style piracy." If a retailer sold a knock-off, they were issued a "red card," and they were boycotted by everyone in the Guild.
The only problem with the guild was that it was an illegal monopoly. At least it was according to the FTC, and the Supreme Court agreed in Fashion Originators' Guild v. FTC.
Did the Guild's collapse harm the industry? Quite the opposite. The fact that there are "Red Carpet copycats" actually creates a demand for new designs, resulting in far greater sales of apparel. There's even a name for it: the "piracy paradox."
Johanna Blakely did an excellent presentation about this at TED, which you can watch on YouTube if you like.
So, here we have one industry that would be harmed by copyright laws. There are many other successful industries that don't have copyright protection: the food industry, the automobile industry, furniture design, etc.
The question becomes: If these industries can be so successful and innovative without copyright protection, why do the others need it?
On a final note, while we obviously do not agree on many points (though we do agree on many others), it is a distinct pleasure to engage in exchanges with one who has so obviously taken the time to give this subject much thought and who provides substantive, versus reactionary, comments.
Not a problem. I'm an underground musician, and these sorts of topics (especially regarding music) interest me immensely. That, and I need a way to avoid my Physics homework...
Incidentally, if a few of the commenters here seem a bit reactionary, that's because the usual "pro-copyright" folks here do nothing but call everyone "pirates," call Masnick a "scumbag," and believe Techdirt is a subsidiary of Google.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
break one either way
[ link to this | view in thread ]
break one either way
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
I'm pro-copyright when it works, but unfortunately, the content industries seem to be determined to break it beyond repair. However, take comfort in the fact that my stories' copyright notices contain a general licence for people to copy and share them (except file sharing). Now that's what I call working copyright!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Wrong Word
Property itself does not consist of "things". Property is a legal fiction that describes the relationship between people in relation to things, both tangible (physical objects) and intangible (real property such as delineations of land). Similar to copyright, property laws afford owners certain protections, such as the right to use and enjoy the things they have a property interest in, share it with others, exclude it from others, sell it to others, and waive any of these protections at their discretion.
The creation of intellectual property law was in recognition that it was not the same as what we traditionally think of as property in terms of the bundle of rights and protections it affords you, but the spirit is the same. As a western society, we decided that the social wealth we gain from granting certain protections to owners of things, whether they be delineations of land, physical objects, or the tangible expressions of their creativity was valuable.
I don't believe the word property is the problem, as no one is talking about protecting thoughts. The real discussion is whether the move towards criminalizing copyright infringement (i.e. calling it theft, and thus making infringers open to imprisonment and criminal fines) is the best way for society to protect those intellectual property interest-holders' rights. I don't believe it is.
[ link to this | view in thread ]