Forget SOPA, You Should Be Worried About This Cybersecurity Bill

from the this-is-not-good dept

Mon, Apr 2nd 2012 11:00am — Mike Masnick

While most folks are looking elsewhere, it appears that Congress is trying to see if it can sneak an absolutely awful "cybersecurity" bill through Congress. We've discussed how there's been some fighting on the Senate side concerning which cybersecurity bill to support, but there's a similar battle going on in the House, and it appears that the Rogers-Ruppersberger bill, known as CISPA (for Cyber Intelligence Sharing and Protection Act) or HR 3523 is winning out, with a planned attempt to move it through Congress later this month. The bill is awful -- and yet has somehow already gained over 100 sponsors. In an attempt to pretend that this isn't a "SOPA-like" problem, the supporters of this bill are highlighting the fact that Facebook, Microsoft and TechAmerica are supporting this bill.

However, this is a terrible bill for a variety of reasons. Even if we accept the mantra that new cybersecurity laws are needed (despite a near total lack of evidence to support this -- and, no, fearmongering about planes falling from the sky doesn't count), this bill has serious problems. As CDT warned when this bill first came out, it's way too broad and overreaching:

However, the bill goes much further, permitting ISPs to funnel private communications and related information back to the government without adequate privacy protections and controls. The bill does not specify which agencies ISPs could disclose customer data to, but the structure and incentives in the bill raise a very real possibility that the National Security Agency or the DOD’s Cybercommand would be the primary recipient.

If it's confusing to keep track of these different cybersecurity bills, the ACLU has put together a handy dandy (scary) chart (pdf) comparing them all. And what comes through loud and clear is that the Rogers-Ruppersberger CISPA bill will allow for much greater information sharing of companies sending private communication data to the government -- including the NSA, who has been trying very, very hard to get this data, not for cybersecurity reasons, but to spy on people. CISPA has broad definitions, very few limits on who can get the data, almost no limitations on how the government can use the data (i.e. they can use it to monitor, not just for cybersecurity reasons) and (of course) no real oversight at all for how the data is (ab)used.

CDT has put together a reasonable list of 8 things that should be done if politicians don't want to turn cybersecurity into a new SOPA, but so far, Congress is ignoring nearly all of them. Similarly, EFF is asking people to speak out against CISPA, noting that it basically creates a cybersecurity exemption to all existing laws. If the government wants your data, it just needs to claim that it got it for "cybersecurity purposes" and then it can do pretty much whatever it wants.

This is a really bad bill and it looks like it's going to pass unless people speak up.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.

While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.

–The Techdirt Team

Filed Under: cispa, cybersecurity, monitoring, privacy, rogers-ruppersberger, sopa

103 Comments

If you liked this post, you may also be interested in...

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread

Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:05am

Why does it always go this way...
Why is spying on U.S. citizens always the solution?

Why can't security just be...increased? Why can't the people implementing the solutions be held accountable for doing a poor job?

Why can't this money go into educating people to think in a more secure way and implement better procedures?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:12am

OMG, the sky is falling! The sky is falling! Scary stuff! OMG OMG OMG.

God, you're a broken record.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gorehound (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:17am

If things just keep on continuing in this way I think we should do a poll.
In the next 20 or so years how many people think there will be a second American Revolution ?

We were meant to be a Nation of Freedom which we are not.And that should piss off quite a lot of people.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:17am

Even if we accept the mantra that new cybersecurity laws are needed (despite a near total lack of evidence to support this -- and, no, fearmongering about planes falling from the sky doesn't count), this bill has serious problems.

Thank douchebags like lulzsec and others. Stupid shit like taking down the White House website, the Library of Congress (really??) and other government sites has created all the justification and motivation for more cyber security laws.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
PlagueSD (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:20am

Re: Why does it always go this way...
That's the last thing the Government needs...Educated citizens. Why do you think they're working so hard to "pass" students with policies such as "no one left behind." Also, the money that US states spend on prisons has risen at 6x the rate of spending on higher education. http://t.co/7BaxIzQd. Why don't we stop trying to put everyone in prison and start educating them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:22am

Re: Why does it always go this way...
Because big business and government have declared war on the people in the name of "protecting" them(selves).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Suja (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:23am

Re:
God, you're a broken record.

Yes, you are. A broken record company, to be exact.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
:Lobo Santo (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:24am

Re:
http://xkcd.com/932/
[ link to this | view in thread ]
E. Zachary Knight (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:24am

Re:
I just love that a DDoS attack can be used to advance spying powers within the federal government.

It would be like people standing in front of the intrances to the capital building as justification to allow full police powers to enter and search people's homes without warrants.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:28am

Re:
Indeed, protests are scary for government organizations... which is why they want to combat protests with legislation that allows them to treat them like terrorists.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Grae (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:29am

Re:
2/10: No creativity went into this at all.

Are you even trying?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris Rhodes (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:30am

Sooooo
How's that FreedomBox project going? Love to buy one about now!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
weneedhelp (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:36am

Re:
During the first revolution, we only had to fight cannons and muskets. The next one will be called The Great American Slaughter.

They will take all those war toys paid for by the American public and turn them against us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
https://www.commondreams.org/video/2011/1 1/22
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:43am

Re:
Hmm, 1 point for the attempt to belittle the subject presented with an 'attack' that a 5-year old would consider sad, 1 point for the personal attack, but -1 for the triple OMG bit.

1/10, really need to work on your trolling there.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
pixelpusher220 (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:45am

Re: Why does it always go this way...
Shame they didn't compare the bills to SOPA. Comparing 4 individual bills is nice and all, but the public is simply not going to care.

Compare them to SOPA and they will go down in flames.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:45am

Yeah, we'll start hearing story after story about "this and that hacked" - trying to justify the government control.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brian (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:47am

You know...
If this bill is such a bad thing to worry about, why wasn't it reported on until now? I looked at the links in this article and it passed committee last December. And unlike SOPA, I'm not liking the chances of stopping this one.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
weneedhelp (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:48am

Re: Re:
Because tear gas and concussion grenades are not enough:
http://gizmodo.com/5369190/lrad-sound-cannon-used-on-pittsburgh-g20-protesters
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:48am

Re: Re:
I seem to remember a lot of cheerleading on Techdirt when this was going on. This was a predictable response. Hope it was wort the lulz. Now everyone pays.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:48am

Re:
Thank douchebags like lulzsec and others. Stupid shit like taking down the White House website, the Library of Congress (really??) and other government sites has created all the justification and motivation for more cyber security laws.

You really think that some idiot kids doing some temporary vandalism is the justification needed to take away your privacy and letting the gov't spy on everyone? Are you insane?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
silverscarcat (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:49am

Let me fix your quote...
"OMG, the sky is falling! The sky is falling! Scary stuff! OMG OMG OMG.

God, the record industry is so stupid."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
weneedhelp (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:50am

Re: You know...
"why wasn't it reported on until now?"

Fox?
CNN?
ABC?
CBS?
MSNBC?

Really?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[citation needed or GTFO], 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:51am

Re:
OMG, the sky is falling! The sky is falling! Scary stuff! OMG OMG OMG.

OMG, the sky is rising! The sky is rising! Scary stuff! OMG OMG OMG.

God, you're a broken record.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[citation needed or GTFO], 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:54am

Re: Re: You know...
They were too busy covering the elections of which idiots we're putting into the White House and Congress so they can pass more fanfic worthy material as laws.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brian (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:55am

Re: Re: You know...
Of course I don't mean the MSM. Like they care about this stuff. I meant here on techdirt. Then again, I am rather new here, so if this bill has been covered before, forgive my ignorance.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jilocasin (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 11:57am

Who are the cosponsors?
Anyone know where the list of actual cosponsors can be found? The links just say that there are over 100 of them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:02pm

If this bill is such a bad thing to worry about, why wasn't it reported on until now?

That's by design - haven't people noticed congress' tactics yet?

Release some nonsensical bill that could never pass - while a furor ensues - they pass the one they had intended to pass all along behind the backs of the people. It's why Dec. 31st is such a popular day for just that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:02pm

Re:
Funny you use this analogy, when literally, one of the scare tactics being used to push crap like this, is that planes are going to start falling from the sky.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:04pm

Anyone know where the list of actual cosponsors can be found? The links just say that there are over 100 of them.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3523

There's a link on there.

Rep. Mark Amodei [R-NV2]
Rep. Michele Bachmann [R-MN6]
Rep. Dan Boren [D-OK2]
Rep. Michael Burgess [R-TX26]
Rep. Ken Calvert [R-CA44]
Rep. Ben Chandler [D-KY6]
Rep. Michael Conaway [R-TX11]
Rep. Norman �Norm� Dicks [D-WA6]
Rep. John �Phil� Gingrey [R-GA11]
Rep. Luis Guti�rrez [D-IL4]
Rep. Joe Heck [R-NV3]
Rep. Peter �Pete� King [R-NY3]
Rep. Adam Kinzinger [R-IL11]
Rep. James �Jim� Langevin [D-RI2]
Rep. Frank LoBiondo [R-NJ2]
Rep. Michael McCaul [R-TX10]
Rep. Jeff Miller [R-FL1]
Rep. Sue Myrick [R-NC9]
Rep. Devin Nunes [R-CA21]
Rep. Mike Pompeo [R-KS4]
Rep. Thomas Rooney [R-FL16]
Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger [D-MD2]
Rep. John Shimkus [R-IL19]
Rep. Lee Terry [R-NE2]
Rep. Michael �Mike� Thompson [D-CA1]
Rep. Frederick �Fred� Upton [R-MI6]
Rep. Greg Walden [R-OR2]
Rep. Lynn Westmoreland [R-GA3]
Rep. Rodney Frelinghuysen [R-NJ11] (joined Dec 08, 2011)
Rep. Robert Latta [R-OH5] (joined Dec 08, 2011)
Rep. Patrick McHenry [R-NC10] (joined Dec 08, 2011)
Rep. Ben Quayle [R-AZ3] (joined Dec 08, 2011)
Rep. Kevin Yoder [R-KS3] (joined Dec 08, 2011)
Rep. David �Dave� Camp [R-MI4] (joined Dec 16, 2011)
Rep. Timothy Walberg [R-MI7] (joined Dec 16, 2011)
Rep. Anna Eshoo [D-CA14] (joined Dec 20, 2011)
Rep. Michael Michaud [D-ME2] (joined Dec 20, 2011)
Rep. Mike Coffman [R-CO6] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. Robert �Bob� Goodlatte [R-VA6] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. David McKinley [R-WV1] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers [R-WA5] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen [R-FL18] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. John Sullivan [R-OK1] (joined Jan 18, 2012)
Rep. Randy Forbes [R-VA4] (joined Jan 25, 2012)
Rep. Frank Wolf [R-VA10] (joined Jan 25, 2012)
Rep. Darrell Issa [R-CA49] (joined Jan 31, 2012)
Rep. Gary Miller [R-CA42] (joined Jan 31, 2012)
Rep. Clifford �Cliff� Stearns [R-FL6] (joined Jan 31, 2012)
Rep. Tom Cole [R-OK4] (joined Feb 01, 2012)
Rep. Michael Turner [R-OH3] (joined Feb 01, 2012)
Rep. Mo Brooks [R-AL5] (joined Feb 07, 2012)
Rep. John Carter [R-TX31] (joined Feb 07, 2012)
Rep. Vicky Hartzler [R-MO4] (joined Feb 07, 2012)
Rep. Bill Huizenga [R-MI2] (joined Feb 07, 2012)
Rep. Dan Benishek [R-MI1] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Paul Broun [R-GA10] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Michael Grimm [R-NY13] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Brett Guthrie [R-KY2] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Candice Miller [R-MI10] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Michael �Mike� Rogers [R-AL3] (joined Feb 13, 2012)
Rep. Geoff Davis [R-KY4] (joined Feb 14, 2012)
Rep. Doc Hastings [R-WA4] (joined Feb 14, 2012)
Rep. Leonard Lance [R-NJ7] (joined Feb 14, 2012)
Rep. Patrick Meehan [R-PA7] (joined Feb 14, 2012)
Rep. Spencer Bachus [R-AL6] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. Mary Bono Mack [R-CA45] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. John Kline [R-MN2] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. Pete Olson [R-TX22] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. Aaron Schock [R-IL18] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. William �Bill� Shuster [R-PA9] (joined Feb 16, 2012)
Rep. Joe Baca [D-CA43] (joined Feb 27, 2012)
Rep. Chuck Fleischmann [R-TN3] (joined Feb 27, 2012)
Rep. Phil Roe [R-TN1] (joined Feb 27, 2012)
Rep. Leonard Boswell [D-IA3] (joined Feb 28, 2012)
Rep. Kristi Noem [R-SD0] (joined Feb 28, 2012)
Rep. Rob Wittman [R-VA1] (joined Mar 01, 2012)
Rep. Marsha Blackburn [R-TN7] (joined Mar 05, 2012)
Rep. Alcee Hastings [D-FL23] (joined Mar 05, 2012)
Rep. Randy Hultgren [R-IL14] (joined Mar 05, 2012)
Rep. Robert Hurt [R-VA5] (joined Mar 05, 2012)
Rep. Rick Crawford [R-AR1] (joined Mar 08, 2012)
Rep. Bill Johnson [R-OH6] (joined Mar 08, 2012)
Rep. Adrian Smith [R-NE3] (joined Mar 08, 2012)
Del. Madeleine Bordallo [D-GU0] (joined Mar 19, 2012)
Rep. Trent Franks [R-AZ2] (joined Mar 19, 2012)
Rep. Rick Larsen [D-WA2] (joined Mar 19, 2012)
Rep. Albio Sires [D-NJ13] (joined Mar 19, 2012)
Rep. Edolphus �Ed� Towns [D-NY10] (joined Mar 19, 2012)
Rep. Jim Cooper [D-TN5] (joined Mar 22, 2012)
Rep. Joseph Pitts [R-PA16] (joined Mar 22, 2012)
Rep. Mike Ross [D-AR4] (joined Mar 22, 2012)
Rep. Jon Runyan [R-NJ3] (joined Mar 22, 2012)
Rep. Roscoe Bartlett [R-MD6] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Brian Bilbray [R-CA50] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Dennis Cardoza [D-CA18] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Jim Costa [D-CA20] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Morgan Griffith [R-VA9] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Larry Kissell [D-NC8] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Mike McIntyre [D-NC7] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. William Owens [D-NY23] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Collin Peterson [D-MN7] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Steve Scalise [R-LA1] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Heath Shuler [D-NC11] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Steve Stivers [R-OH15] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Addison �Joe� Wilson [R-SC2] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
Rep. Rob Woodall [R-GA7] (joined Mar 29, 2012)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
pixelpusher220 (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:10pm

Re: Re:
I would tend to agree the OP. It means nothing in reality, but it drives a perception that becomes reality for the general public.

If people are hacking the CIA and FBI, bills giving the CIA and FBI more power get cover from that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
E. Zachary Knight (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re:
Demolishing long held Constitutional limits and protections is not how a government should respond to acts of protest, not matter how childish they are.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I-Blz, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:16pm

Re:
Wat. Well, at least this furthers my goal of proving that the modern partie have no differences between them except talking points.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:18pm

Re:
You WAY overvalue the average person's desire to take action and fight for anything. Most are either a) happy enough to coast through life or b) would rather just leave and go somewhere better than actually fight for it.

I'm currently on a), but would not be averse to b) if things get as bad as it might.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:19pm

Re: Re:
Real justification? No. Real enough to use as a scare tactic to push through laws? Hell yes.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:22pm

My rep was a co-sponser and I just emailed him :)

Do the same folks - get the fires burning on this. Don't let them sneak this one past us.

If a corporation is entitled to this 'information' - then it should be public.

Why do they get more rights than citizens, when the constitution outlines the guarantee of individual rights - not corporate rights.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:22pm

Re:
I just called all the reps from my state and none of the staffers were willing to tell me where the representative stood on these bill. This list confirms that the staffers must know and are not willing to tell the very people they "represent" the truth. Its sickening how so disconnected the voters' perspective is from the process.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:25pm

what the hell is this absolutely desperate need for the US government to be able to rip apart every part of it's citizens privacy? what is happening that is so dastardly that every citizen is an active part of it? if there are particular people who are considered a threat, watch them, but not the entire country. that is insane! going back to the 'reds under the bed', 'everyone is a communist' days. ridiculous!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:26pm

Funny you use this analogy, when literally, one of the scare tactics being used to push crap like this, is that planes are going to start falling from the sky.

Let them, as long as my rights are upheld.

You can never get real 'security' from a government that's not willing to also give you your liberty; at that point you just have a different entity that you'll need to be secured from: Government.

For if Government provides enough 'security' to control everything, then the people will need security FROM government.

I mean - any tyrant can say he'll provide 'security' - few leaders really work to provide 'rights'. Perhaps this sums it up best:

Thomas Jefferson: �A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.�
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:33pm

HA!

You really think that some idiot kids doing some temporary vandalism is the justification needed to take away your privacy and letting the gov't spy on everyone? Are you insane?

No, but our 'leaders' are insane...

These are just the things they use to push these laws. Of course, the media hypes it like it's a huge deal.

We, as IT people know that 'lulzsec' - or whatever, is likely pimple faced basement dwelling intorverts that know how to script well, because the only friends they have are Notepad++ and The internet.

But give that to the media and the spin becomes:

"Malicious hacking group 'lulsec' is threatening the country by hacking the DOD's web site... " - yada yada...

When all that was really done is some joke put up on the main page, etc.

So NO, it's not a legit justification technically, but spin it in the media and it will become the 'justification' that congress needs to pass more laws that take away our rights and give them to corporations.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:43pm

Re: Re:
Take off the tinfoil hat for a second Masnick. I'm only saying that these stupid acts have provided the public basis to justify more intrusive laws like this. And it doesn't help that while this was going on, many were cheering them along and other prominent organizations and corporations who seem to believe that they should be consulted on tech policy, failed to condemn this stupid vandalism.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ninja (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:48pm

Re:
Good way to make it fail: tell Democrats the Reps are supporting it and vice-versa!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
flargalgargal (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:51pm

Power, which the government has, corrupts, and causes them to seek absolute power, which corrupts absolutely. Cliches are cliches for a reason, because they're true.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-robert-aziz/why-power-corrupts-and-ab_b_920638.html
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Cowardly Anonymous, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:51pm

Re: Who are the cosponsors?
Mr. ROGERS of Michigan (for himself, Mr. RUPPERSBERGER, Mr. KING of New York, Mr. UPTON, Mrs. MYRICK, Mr. LANGEVIN, Mr. CONAWAY, Mr. MILLER of Florida, Mr. BOREN, Mr. LOBIONDO, Mr. CHANDLER, Mr. NUNES, Mr. GUTIERREZ, Mr. WESTMORELAND, Mrs. BACHMANN, Mr. ROONEY, Mr. HECK, Mr. DICKS, Mr. MCCAUL, Mr. WALDEN, Mr. CALVERT, Mr. SHIMKUS, Mr. TERRY, Mr. BURGESS, Mr. GINGREY of Georgia, Mr. THOMPSON of California, Mr. KINZINGER of Illinois, Mr. AMODEI, and Mr. POMPEO) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Select Committee on Intelligence (Permanent Select)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Cowardly Anonymous, 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:54pm

Re: Re: Who are the cosponsors?
Though that isn't all of them...

Here you go
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Nick Dynice (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:59pm

Re: Why does it always go this way...
I think new Security Industrial Complex created by post 9/11 security hype is behind this new glut of legislation.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 12:59pm

Re: Re: Re:
And there it is...it was vandalism.

Because some kid spray painted a wall, we should have laws requiring electronic tethers on all children?

The media sensationalized the "attacks", but thats what they do. They work people up into a frenzy for laughs.

However our elected leaders aren't supposed to be freaking uninformed morons. They have their staff, researchers, reports, etc. at their finger tips... and they just feed into the hype rather than actually say this is overhyped, here are facts.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
illunatic (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 1:03pm

yet another...
It is unfortunate, but it seems there will continue to be an onslaught of bills attempting to throw user privacy out of the window in the name of protecting corporate interests.

It may sounds like a broken record, but that is because these attempts to roll over our rights with poorly written bills continue to appear.

I don't even think SOPA was off the table when CISPA was introduced.

http://blog.greenpirate.org/cispa-hr-3523-the-new-sopa/
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 1:25pm

Re: Re: Re:
To be fair...

Mike didn't advocate it. In fact, he has said NUMEROUS TIMES what a "dumb idea" the Anonymous attacks were. I think that qualifies as quite the opposite it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Because some kid spray painted a wall, we should have laws requiring electronic tethers on all children?

Sad, but this sounds wayyyyyyyy too plausible and possibly its already implemented in some school districts.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[citation needed or GTFO], 2 Apr 2012 @ 1:48pm

In case there's a reply that asks for citations...
I'm on record as saying that I think the activist hacking by groups like Anonymous, designed to take down websites in protest, are not particularly smart or useful.

Now, I've been very clear since Anonymous started this effort -- shutting down various websites using what is effectively crowdsourced distributed denial of service attacks -- that I think the strategy is really dumb.

I think that denial of service attacks are a pretty dumb idea.

I've been on record for a while now that I think the strategy of doing DDoS attacks on websites that people don't like is a bad idea, that will lead to backlash.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Nerd, 2 Apr 2012 @ 3:36pm

To keep everyone from panic and taking action CALMLY
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3523

Here's something to keep track of, and its only 11% right now, chances of it being denied is 80%, let's keep it that way or even increase opposition higher, speak up instead of complaining
[ link to this | view in thread ]
silverscarcat (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 3:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
It is. Federal offense to vandalize school property by spray painting stuff these days.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Moondoggie, 2 Apr 2012 @ 4:56pm

RETARDS!
Oh wow! The U.S. Congress really doen't know when to give up do they? Who put those bunch of retards up there? I demand an explanation why they are voted!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ace, 2 Apr 2012 @ 5:12pm

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 2nd, 2012 @ 11:17am
Dude...if you think that those things justify raping the bill of rights and the constitution....you need to check yourself...because NOTHING JUSTIFIES THAT.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 5:29pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
It's more like because some children prank called a big corporation, the government should wire tap all of our phones now.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 5:35pm

People need to teach them a lesson and refuse to buy,rent,download, and go to the theaters.
30-60 Days I can guarantee that would make the fuckers change their viewpoint pretty fucking fast.

I've not seen a movie since the raid on mega. It was boring at first to give up all the T.V. time and trips to the theaters.

With the extra 3-4 hours I save every single day I've became way more productive and have managed to shed a few pounds.

So with that said I will say thank you very much to the movie and music industries for giving me my life back.

The only regrets I have is that if I knew this is the way they wanted stuff I would have never bought satellite T.V. or wasted countless gallons of gas for the 40 mile round trip to see movies on the big screen every week.

Even if they did back down and tell the world sorry I will never be a customer for any of them again.

I hope some others decide to do similar shit and find out something about yourself you would've never known otherwise. For me it was losing the weight about 35 lbs.

I'm no longer a fat ass and I managed to do it all on the fuck MPAA,RIAA diet.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mike Masnick (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 5:41pm

Re: Re: Re:
And it doesn't help that while this was going on, many were cheering them along and other prominent organizations and corporations who seem to believe that they should be consulted on tech policy, failed to condemn this stupid vandalism.

Are you serious? Almost everyone I know -- including us -- condemned those actions as counterproductive.

Must you *always* lie?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

nancy, 2 Apr 2012 @ 6:02pm

Re: Why does it always go this way...
my classmate's step-sister makes $62/hour on the internet. She has been unemployed for 8 months but last month her pay was $16933 just working on the internet for a few hours. Here's the site to read more..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 6:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I don't recall statements of condemnation from EFF, CDT, Public Knowledge, Reddit, Google and the rest of the anti-SOPA crowd.

Saying LulzSec's actions were a "bad idea", then turning around and saying that the FBI arresting them was probably a mistake that will spawn more such behavior is hardly condemnation. It's you parsing words again. Maybe you should go re-read some of the user comments. They are generally laudatory or dismissive of their actions. I don't recall a single comment saying that this is simply wrong.

The only real concern was that LulzSec's actions would elicit an unfavorable response- kind of like the Rogers-Ruppersberger bill.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 6:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
P.S. I also said prominent organizations and corporations, not Techdirt.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 6:35pm

Re:
there will always be those who push the boundaries of what is acceptable morally and lawfully. to punish the entire populous based on the actions of such a small number of people is just foolish.

To put that argument into perspective, lets change the crime into something physical like murder. it's bad, we can agree on that. some people murder others. so what if we were all punished for the last murder... that 17 yr old in Florida for example. how would you feel about that?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 7:16pm

If you Americans dont start doing something about this shit we're gonna fly over there and riot for you >_>
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Scott, 2 Apr 2012 @ 7:21pm

Does anyone remember?
Does anyone remember Obama's promises during his campaign. He promised the American people more transparency in government and stated all proposed legislation would be available for view by the public prior to congressional action.
Need a laugh read this
If anything, the government has become less transparent under his watch. Do I think McCain would have been better... of course not.
The question is, when are we going to stand-up to this tyranny by deception? When will we say enough is enough, and demand a government for the people, not a government watching the people?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Austin, 2 Apr 2012 @ 7:34pm

"Those who trade their freedom for security deserve neither" ~ Ben Franklin
[ link to this | view in thread ]
raoul, 2 Apr 2012 @ 7:52pm

Re: Why does it always go this way...
your asking the questions that the average person would say yeah what a great idea. but a politician says bugger that, that means i cant just sit back and have my pie.

spying on you gives them all the information they will need with minimal work, and if no one speaks up, it WILL happen.

it already is... PRE NAZI MUUHHRRICA
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ok, 2 Apr 2012 @ 7:56pm

Re: You know...
It's a conspiracy. The Government shoulnd't be able to pass laws like this , which put the jeopardy of normal citizens privacy at risk. They are destroying the world most amazing creation. And they do it because of money. OH yeah Money is the root of all evil.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
CJ (profile), 2 Apr 2012 @ 8:11pm

thinking caps plus data
Maybe we should be trying to figure out from it's beginning on whom is try so hard to push these type Bills through?

Seems as fast as one gets killed there is always another to replace it. So there has to be a certain group, or business that has their heart set on passing this. It doesn't spring up without a reason. Someone has to do the pushing.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 9:04pm

Re: Re: Why does it always go this way...
Why don't we clean house and vote incumbents all out of office? Oh wait, this country is run by the 1%.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Crios Century, 2 Apr 2012 @ 9:11pm

Re: Why does it always go this way...
It's america sir. We take credit only for our great oppressions on evil, but not fore the oppressions we make that are. The deeper in to life we go, the more hell we spawn. Our government is one of billions of issues that just need to stop abd shut the hell up for once. Hopefully anonymous and others who are bluntly saying "STFU" right at them will get to them. Right about now is the timing for a revolt, as have many other countries in the past. This one will more or less involve death and destruction, but more or less, the government will fold in on itself and we, the people, shall take it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jon, 2 Apr 2012 @ 9:34pm

damn so no more kitty porn :0 lol
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Apr 2012 @ 9:51pm

Allow Fascist Creeps to seize office any way they can...
and Fascism creeps.

People in the us are stunningly stupid if they think that it's anything even remotely resembling a free country that they live in.

That only happens in the movies.

If you really care, stop buying into the relentless lying propaganda that pours out of your so-called media and so-called government and do something to fix the problem.

Remember that monster-maker Herr Karl Rove endorsed Obummer last time around? Do you get it now?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Me, 2 Apr 2012 @ 10:32pm

Mike masnick, you are still my fucking HERO!!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Delixcroix, 3 Apr 2012 @ 1:43am

Is there no nd to these billsmaking a massive spy network for the government? As a Canadian these bills worry me the most because not only are they powerful enough to start filling our prisons up with nerds... geeks... And programmers who's inteligence makes them a threat to "national security" aka "Governments international Slave Network for monopoly money"

The american dollar holds no value as anything but a token of servitude. The less money you have the greater slave you will always be.

Want to watch the world burn? Take All your money, all your reasources out of banks. Banks that take your money and reasources that support the corperations that enslave you and the government that imprisons the free thinkers of our society.

The only way anyone is going to get out of this alive is what could only be called a governmental Genocide. Sad to say but Republicans and Democratic officials of every sort is going to have to die. The people need to form a new government. One based on Freedom not slavery and security.

Nobody wants to say bloodshed isn't the only way out of slavery but the government has already resorted to bloodshed upon the people.

Do your part and show that the people can be terrorists because anyone who opposes the Secured slavery of all American people has already been labeled a terrorist. Your going to prison anyways in the long run so you might as well fight the power that's going to put you there.

You are all violent criminals expressiong violent ideas and fighting for freedom. Something you do not have. Rally before the government has the power to cut down free thinking before it can oppose it.

If the people don't stand up now and one of these bills passes. You will simply always be slaves. Step out of line and I am sure the blue collar slaves will have built a prison for you.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hobbs, 3 Apr 2012 @ 1:55am

Re:
yur pretty much misinformed...SOPA and PIPA were pushed by Hollywood etc.,big media...the govt. wants to use it to clamp down on internet freedom and track trends for the benefit of control...control for their corporate masters,the richest 1%...ALL of what our government has been doing since 911 has been not about external threats and national security,thats just an excuse...its about control and manipulation of the common folk for the benefit of the rich and very rich...the ones that hold the power and yeild it with the government as their tool.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 2:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
justification needed to take away your privacy

Says the guy paid to carry Google's water...

A completely evil mega-corporation.

Must you *always* be so intellectually dishonest?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 2:28am

Re: White House, Library of Congress
these websites are still up...maybe they aren't the same as you remember but they are there...when I saw your comment I checked, n yes they are there....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 4:33am

Re: Re: Re:
-1 Interwebs to you Sir.

This is not sufficient rational to take away more privacy from you, freedoms from you and from those you care about.

Your shortsightedness is as frightening. I am concerned that you and others like you that drank the government kool-aid of fear and suspicion cannot see the bigger picture. More government intervention in your life, whether it is for protecting *AA profits or supposedly protecting you from terrorists is simply unacceptable.

I am not in favor of the government watching over every thing I or mine does. Why are you??
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 4:35am

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 2nd, 2012 @ 11:17am
Yeah, and that slut dressed skimpy so it deserved to be raped.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 4:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Stop being such a shortsighted Shill!

See the larger picture of government intervention in Everything you and those you care about does!

This isn't about protecting your precious ip rights. This is about holding the all to willing government at bay from spying on everything you and yours does!

I'm so tired of your weak and repetitive "Google is the Evil" rant. Put up concrete evidence and shut up.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jashim uddin, 3 Apr 2012 @ 5:56am

comment
The American cash holds no price as everything but a token of servitude. The less money you have the greater slave you will always be.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TaCktiX (profile), 3 Apr 2012 @ 6:47am

I sent an email to all of my representatives (all of which thankfully are not cosponsors). If things start ramping up I'll call them as well (did the same thing for SOPA, the next day the senator I called came out against so I know I wasn't the only one).

One thing to keep in mind is that specific and well-thought reasons for opposing legislation goes far further than a form letter. So when given the option, make sure to put your personal touch to it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rob, 3 Apr 2012 @ 7:29am

Re:
Uhh this isnt to catch lulzsec or Anonymous, these guys are wayyy smarter thany anyone in your government, they will get around this like a showhorse clears a hurdle. Non this cybersecuroty bill is to catch you the average citizen. The corperate masters want to know when you are pirating stuff so they can arrest or sue you or both. It's also for the powers that be to make sure there is nothing like the Arab Spring in the united states. Look at the role of twitter and Youtube, and facebook and texting in the popular uprisings around the world. Look at it in your own Occupy movements. The people who are in power want to keep the average joe from seeing the evidence or repression and organizing against it. This is to keep you guys in line...no one else
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 8:08am

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Apr 2nd, 2012 @ 11:12am
Do some research, you suck!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 3 Apr 2012 @ 8:08am

Have any of you bothered to read the bill?
what I see this bill doing is granting designated "private" entities such as a Blackwater or its equivalent access to classified information and grants them the ability to SPY on behalf of the US government: its privetising the CIA and FBI
with complete protection from wrong doing!!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 3 Apr 2012 @ 3:41pm

Re: Why does it always go this way...
I have an answer for each of the questions you asked:

1. According to the U.S. Gov...we are all pirates of intellectual properties.

2. Security "increase" brings more ridiculous, useless, one-sided, taxpayer dollar wasting Bills or Laws designed to undermine our freedoms as Americans, to the drawing table.

3. Most of the money educating people should be spent educating our Government agencies on what the internet is and how to use it in daily life (this means you U.S. DOJ).

In other words I totally agree :-)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 3 Apr 2012 @ 4:34pm

Re: Re:
That would work if it didn't already have bipartisan support. Read through the list of co-sponsors.

We've got some similar laws to be announced at the Queen's speech later on this year. I've already come down on my MP like a ton of bricks over it but I can't be the only one or it'll pass.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17580906
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wendy Cockcroft (profile), 3 Apr 2012 @ 4:40pm

Re: thinking caps plus data
Take a close look at the wording in all of them and you'll find references to "protecting the economy" and intellectual property.

The people behind it are the MPAA, RIAA, and other IP maximalists. Their other projects include ACTA and TPP. They won't stop until IP law is reformed or they succeed in getting us all under surveillance by our own ISPs.

Personally, I prefer IP reform. If there's less for them to gain by pushing such laws they'll stop pushing them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Justin, 3 Apr 2012 @ 11:26pm

HACKERS HAVE PROVEN REVOLUTION IS POSSIBLE
LUZSEC ANONYMOUS AND HOPEFULLY MANY MORE TO COME ARE THE NEW WORLDS REVOLUTIONARY GUARD. WE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT INJUSTICES COMMITTED BY AUTHORITIES. HACKING IS OUR ONLY HOPE. GONE ARE THE PRINCIPLES OF PRIVATE MILITIA. THEY ARE NOW TERRORIST. BUT THE REAL TERRORISM BEGAN HERE. AGAINST EVERY NON WHITE CITIZEN AND HAS BEEN SUBVERTED AND ROOTED AS US AGAINST THEM WE ARE THEM. UNLESS SOMEONE EXPOSES IT WE WILL CONTINUE TO BELIEVE LIES. HACK FOR GOOD WE'RE ALL COUNTING ON YOU. THIS IS A DEVICE OF SUBVERTING POWER. GRANTING CORPORATIONS AUTHORITY. THIS IS HOW THE DOD GETS AROUND THE GENEVA CONVENTION RULES REGARDING TORTURE AND WAR CRIMES. CORPORATIONS DON'T SIGN TREATIES OR HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATION. FEAR THOSE PROPAGATING SUBVERSION FORCE THEM INTO THE LIGHT HACK HACK HACK... HIDE YOUR TRACKS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Justin, 3 Apr 2012 @ 11:26pm

HACKERS HAVE PROVEN REVOLUTION IS POSSIBLE
LUZSEC ANONYMOUS AND HOPEFULLY MANY MORE TO COME ARE THE NEW WORLDS REVOLUTIONARY GUARD. WE SHOULD KNOW ABOUT INJUSTICES COMMITTED BY AUTHORITIES. HACKING IS OUR ONLY HOPE. GONE ARE THE PRINCIPLES OF PRIVATE MILITIA. THEY ARE NOW TERRORIST. BUT THE REAL TERRORISM BEGAN HERE. AGAINST EVERY NON WHITE CITIZEN AND HAS BEEN SUBVERTED AND ROOTED AS US AGAINST THEM WE ARE THEM. UNLESS SOMEONE EXPOSES IT WE WILL CONTINUE TO BELIEVE LIES. HACK FOR GOOD WE'RE ALL COUNTING ON YOU. THIS IS A DEVICE OF SUBVERTING POWER. GRANTING CORPORATIONS AUTHORITY. THIS IS HOW THE DOD GETS AROUND THE GENEVA CONVENTION RULES REGARDING TORTURE AND WAR CRIMES. CORPORATIONS DON'T SIGN TREATIES OR HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATION. FEAR THOSE PROPAGATING SUBVERSION FORCE THEM INTO THE LIGHT HACK HACK HACK... HIDE YOUR TRACKS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 4 Apr 2012 @ 2:29am

Re:
'Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.'
- Benjamin Franklin (1706�90)

FTFY and '+1'
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 4 Apr 2012 @ 2:50am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
*yawn*
I've got the right avatar so I'll speak up.

LulzSec was entertaining.
LulzSec pointed out the amazing disparity of security out on the web.
Everyone wants to pillory LulzSec, but how much shit did Sony catch for not patching well documented holes into their systems? Oh thats right they decided to skip the Congressional Hearing on the matter. They get to write off the "credit monitoring" and cry about how much it cost, when they could have spent much less previously to I dunno encrypt the freaking data.

LulzSec did something people needed to see, there is no great and powerful Oz there is a scared little man behind a curtain.

Lulzsec gave us amazing headlines of Cybergeddon!!!! Blargh...
No one has questioned the media and their total lack of reality in their reports.

Do I think they are the bestest people on the planet, nope.
But they haven't disappeared anyone into a black ops site somewhere else in the world to torture information out of them.

ZOMG THEY HACKED THE CIA!
Truth - they defaced and took down a front facing website of no real consequence.

ZOMG THEY HACKED CONGRESS!
Truth - they defaced and took down a front facing website to prove a point, a hacked website should NOT be considered an act of war.

ZOMG THEY HACKED SOME SHERIFFS OFFICE!
Truth - using an unsecured outsourced site should be illegal. Storing sensitive information on those servers should be a crime.

So other than your demand, why should anyone else who is part of the "anti-SOPA" crowd bother to make a statement on what some gifted kiddies did? They aren't congresscritters who have to get soundbites out to make sure they are on the right side of the issue.

The FBI arresting LulzSec will be a mistake. It will motivate more people to continue the work. It shows that with all of the corruption and problems in the world the greatest crime is to show contempt for a corporation.

Oh and Mike isn't responsible for user comments, they are made by OTHER people rather than the other voices you hear in your head.

While the actions of LulzSec might have sped up the timetable to pretend this bill wasn't already in the planning stages is delusional. The cranky old men have figured out the kids are using the new fangled interwebs thing to plot against them and speak out, and they need to be stopped.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 4 Apr 2012 @ 2:53am

Re: Sooooo
Check out the new generation of the PirateBox.
The newest build is starting to lay the groundwork for a self creating mesh network.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That Anonymous Coward (profile), 4 Apr 2012 @ 2:57am

Re:
http://www.maximan.org/images/icon-kitty.gif
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Jeff DeWitt, 4 Apr 2012 @ 7:36am

Re:
With a federal government that controls all the big weapons, the military, can take control of local law enforcement, AND can monitor all our communications and track where we are all the time just HOW could such a revolution take place?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Bryce Weiner, 5 Apr 2012 @ 11:45am

Re: Why does it always go this way...
What is the benefit that is supposed to be provided by the government getting this information?

Is the return worth the cost in privacy?

That's an argument that goes back 300 years or more, but there hasn't been any indication of WHY this would be something that our tax dollars should be spent on.

Maybe if people understood the benefits of sacrificing a little freedom they might not mind as much.

We sacrifice freedoms all the time for security. For further information go to a library and reade John Locke.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
liam, 6 Apr 2012 @ 1:40pm

cispia
oh god not again here we go again boys,
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Tarlach, 6 Apr 2012 @ 6:29pm

Re:
Yeah, And do you know why they're doing those things or are you just going in half-cocked on an issue that goes deeper than some DDoS attempts by Lulzsec and Anonymous. The government is bringing down a hammer quietly on the freedom we have in the internet. It's only a matter of time before the government decides to implement that killswitch, or place monitors like these all over the country. We've seen it in North Africa, Why not here? Feasiblity is not an issue. We have to stop these bills that are getting passed under our noses, and fast. Freedom my ass. It's a sham for a aristocracy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Tarlach, 6 Apr 2012 @ 6:31pm

Re: Re: Sooooo
I'm looking into developing AD-HOC modules for the PirateBox, as soon as I get one of my own. :3
[ link to this | view in thread ]
SUMMER, 9 Apr 2012 @ 6:47am

mobile#
+639192616111----sms only
my mobile#
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Lady Finance, 20 Apr 2012 @ 12:00am

Hello
Happy I found your blog, there are so many useful things in here. i�ve bookmarked you so i can always have access to your posts.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Enrique, 17 Apr 2013 @ 1:13am

Re: Why does it always go this way...
The reason is obvious, do you think that the state is looking out for their safety when approving a law to access your private area? ... Well, should you be the only one.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Enrique, 17 Apr 2013 @ 1:16am

Re: Re: Why does it always go this way...
And if you want, sacrifice you your freedom, I�m not sorry...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
davidbarcomb, 2 Dec 2014 @ 5:52pm

Re: Re:
Very well said
[ link to this | view in thread ]