Court Says That Copying Code Is Not Really Theft Under The Law
from the deprived-of-use dept
We've been pointing out for a while that copyright is not property and that infringement is not theft. And yet... some people can't seem to let this go -- insisting that both claims are true. Of course, one retort from our side of the discussion is the simple fact that you don't see people who copy content being charged with "theft." However, in a case that received plenty of publicity involving a Goldman Sachs employee who had copied some code from the company, he was actually charged with theft. In response, however, a 2nd Circuit appeals court panel has said he was wrongfully charged, because code is not property. The court specifically cites the Dowling case, which we've discussed on many occasions, which makes clear that infringement is a different beast than theft.The infringement of copyright in Dowling parallels Aleynikov’s theft of computer code. Although “[t]he infringer invades a statutorily defined province guaranteed to the copyright holder alone[,] . . . he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use.” Id. at 217. Because Aleynikov did not “assume physical control” over anything when he took the source code, and because he did not thereby “deprive [Goldman] of its use,” Aleynikov did not violate the NSPA.Of course, it's somewhat unfortunate that in a ruling in which the court finds that Aleynikov has been improperly charged with "theft" under the law... they still repeatedly refer to his actions as "theft." It's too bad they did not properly note that he copied the code, but still repeatedly claim he "stole" it, as they describe his actions in passing -- but when they discuss the actual legal aspect, they admit that there was no theft.
Separately, the court rejected the charges brought under the Economic Espionage Act, noting that the law he was charged under is limited to trade secrets concerning products used in commerce, and since the code in question was for internal use anyway, it did not qualify under the law.
To some extent (and then further in a concurring opinion written by one of the judges on the panel), the court seems to suggest that it doesn't necessarily like these results (this is less clear in the official opinion, but it appears to be what the panel is implying at times), but that the problem is how Congress wrote these particular statutes. It may be true that the laws are drafted poorly, but it's important that copying code is not seen as theft, because it is not theft. Still, the overall ruling here is good, though it could have been more complete.
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Filed Under: copyright, dowling, property, theft
Companies: goldman sachs
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It is most telling to see how, outside of the comments, that they refer to the act... it's theft.
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"John Doe copied my work and distributed copies to all his friends, this Infringes on my work's copyright and I want him to cease and desist, and I want compensation for damages that have occurred due to this infringement"
VS
"John Doe Stole my work and then Gave my work to all his friends. He needs to stop this ongoing theft of my property and pay me what I am owed for each instance of theft."
By using the term "theft" you are basically setting yourself up that one infringement = 1 lost sale. this is because you are objectifying the item copied, and compensation is for the object.
When you talk about it as infringement/damages it is about the act of copying. That act may not be even up to the value of the item. Since nothing is really gone, you can't say $X.XX in product is missing. Since most of these cases are not about commercial infringement they are not making money off of it so they have no revenue that could have potentially been yours.
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That is he left Goldman with material he was bound by his employment contract to keep confidential which is a civil, not criminal matter. In doing so he deprived Goldman of nothing, they still had the code and could (and do) use it in compiled form every day.
It's appearance elsewhere, as seems likely, is infringement not theft as Goldman wasn't and hasn't been deprived of anything. In finding this the court relies on a number of precedents to come to their conclusion. So the ruling appears to be on very solid ground. What they call it makes no difference.
You can certainly take whatever solace you wish in their use of the word theft but it makes no difference legally. Infringement still isn't theft.
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Stealing/theft is commonly used to refer to a copying activity that is perfectly legal.
see
http://www.austinkleon.com/2011/03/30/how-to-steal-like-an-artist-and-9-other-things-nobody-told-m e/
or
http://evie-s.com/news/2011/05/21/please-steal-my-ideas/
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Reading the judgment, it looks like they are quite happy that copying code *could* be theft, but in this case, under this specific law, there need to be some physical goods involved.
Iirc (and I'm no expert on US law), there's no federal theft law, so definitions of steal etc. will presumably be left to state legislation. This case concerned the National Stolen Property Act, which covers someone who "transports, transmits, or transfers in interstate or foreign commerce any goods, wares, merchandise, securities or money... knowing the same to have been stolen, converted or taken by fraud." The Court seems happy that the information has been stolen (hence the otherwise confusing references to theft), but in order for there to be an offence under the NSPA, something physical (i.e. goods etc.) must have been moved across a border.
The court does refer to Dowling, but also contrasts this case with US v Bottone, where the NSPA *was* used when information (to do with drugs) was photocopied and then taken across a border, as the papers counted as goods. The difference here (which is understandably unsatisfactory from a legal point of view) is that there were no physical goods. As the court notes "theft and subsequent interstate transmission of purely intangible property is beyond the scope of the NSPA."
The implication is that had he not merely uploaded the files to a server (in Germany?) but burned them onto a CD, and then taken that CD across a State or National border, his conviction would have been upheld. There's a brief discussion (in I B) of the fact that he later did take the code across a state border on a laptop or flash drive, but they found that the delay in copying the files to the laptop (i.e. some time after the original "theft") defeated the NSPA.
As for copyright not being property, I think people have a tendency to mistake property for physical property in these sorts of discussions. There are all kinds of different types of property, including copyright; all it means is that the rights etc. exist independent of a person (so can be transferred, identified and so on).
To contrast this with the UK (or, at least, England and Wales), here information has been explicitly ruled not to be property (most notably in Oxford v Moss, but also obiter by some of the House of Lords in Boardman v Phipps) which means that information itself cannot be stolen (as that requires property).
However, that doesn't preclude the actual copyright or patent from being stolen, but constructing a situation where that could occur is rather difficult, as one would need to actually deprive the copyright owner of their rights, not merely ignore them. I had a brief discussion with a criminal law lecturer about this a while back, and while some types of copyfraud might work (i.e. when someone claims another's copyright, and tries to enforce it against them), it is unlikely to ever see a courtroom.
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he does not assume physical control over the copyright; nor does he wholly deprive its owner of its use.
Since burning a CD does not equate to taking physical control over the copyright, not copyright material, I'm not following your argument from A to B.
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It's a colloquialism.
You people just don't like it because it accurately marks you as a scumbag that rips people off.
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Now explain the Jammie Thomas case. How does that make sense. If she actually stole the physical items that correspond to what she copied, would she have had that kind of punishment?
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Considering this is one of the preeminent piracy-cheerleading blogs on the web, that should be no trouble at all.
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You don't get out much, do you? Did you only subscribe to the the 3rd tier internet package or does your entertainment industry lobbying firm's filter block too many websites?
Not only is this not a piracy-cheerleading blog, but there are plenty of actual pro-copyright infringement blogs out there where you could troll if you like. Calling this blog pro-piracy is like calling Obama a socialist. The actual pirates and socialists would strongly disagree, but you probably adhere to the all-or-nothing mentality that anyone who isn't insisting that copyright law isn't strong enough must be a pirate/copyright terrorist/dirty scumbag thief.
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I download pre-synced Rifftraxed films in a torrent. I already bought the original DVD (or got it as a present) and I buy the Rifftrax mp3 from their site. The only reason I torrent it as well is because I'm lazy and can't be bothered to sync it all up. How am I ripping people off when I legally obtained both items?
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1. a word or phrase appropriate to conversation and other informal situations
2. the use of colloquial words and phrases
(emphasis mine)
The courtroom is not an informal situation, therefore the term should not be used EVER in this context.
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Absolutely agree 100%, if by colloquialism you actually mean 'lie'.
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Bend over and grease it up greedtards
Theft:
In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. The word is also used as an informal shorthand term for some crimes against property, such as burglary, embezzlement, larceny, looting, robbery, shoplifting and fraud. In some jurisdictions, theft is considered to be synonymous with larceny; in others, theft has replaced larceny. Someone who carries out an act of or makes a career of theft is known as a thief. The act of theft is known by terms such as stealing, thieving, and filching.
1.criminal law - the dishonest taking of property belonging to another person with the intention of depriving the owner permanently of its possession.
Still unsure, see stealing, thieving, and filching.
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Verb: Deny (a person or place) the possession or use of something.
Me? None of it. You, however, seem a bit confused.
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OK I just copied your comment. What did I deprive you of?
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Of course it's not theft. But it's still property. Funny how you ignore the fact that Congress and the Supreme Court unequivocally treat copyright as property. Funny how even you admit that under the Constitution, copyright is property as that word is used in the Fifth Amendment. Violation of property rights takes on many forms: theft, infringement, trespass. All are different, but all share the common characteristic that they are violations of somebody's property rights.
Explain to all your readers why copyright is property under the Constitution, which is the supreme law of the land, but it's not property. Please explain your blaring contradiction, Mike. Or do you enjoy lying to your readers? Don't answer that. Of course you do. It's what you do best. It's what all snake oil salesmen do.
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Here it is, in case you need it for reference:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
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Until you cite something on that, I'm done here.
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Here's a unanimous Supreme Court saying copyrights are proeprty: "The owner of the copyright, if he pleases, may refrain from vending or licensing and content himself with simply exercising the right to exclude others from using his property." http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=11927843113158763814
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The "license" is classified as a quasi property right, whereas the content is only property so long as it is tangible and non-fungible.
You can "steal" the license, though you cannot "steal" the content. The property is ONLY the licence, even though it is intangible like a mortgage, will etc.
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If the men who wrote the constitutional law who belived strongly to the rights of individuals to keep property saw fit to include what is clearly intended as en expiry clause for copyright and patents, then the authors clearly did not view (the executions of) ideas as a right of property.
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The limited times is just part of the bargain. The author gets the copyright, i.e., the copyright, for a limited time. After which, the author's property right is extinguished and the work becomes part of the public domain. The Constitution grants Congress to create a statutorily defined intellectual property right for a limited time.
If the men who wrote the constitutional law who belived strongly to the rights of individuals to keep property saw fit to include what is clearly intended as en expiry clause for copyright and patents, then the authors clearly did not view (the executions of) ideas as a right of property.
You're starting with the false assumption that all property rights must not have expiration. That's wrong. Lots of property rights have time limits. Ever rent something? The part you're not grasping is that the word property when used in legal theory refers to the rights in a thing. Our rights in things--our property--is defined by statute all the time.
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If you rent a dvd you cannot snap it half, because it's not your property.
If you rent an apartment it still belongs to the landlord, you just pay so that he won't kick you off his land.
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Where'd you go? I thought you were going to school me good. LOL!
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Pick up any text on property law, and one of the first things you'll see is the explanation that property law is concerned with the rights in property, more so than the property itself. Destroy the property, and the rights still remain. The rights are what property is all about.
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Such rights are property -in the sense that they can be bought and sold - but that does not mean that infringment is theft.
That would be like equating trespass with "theft of land".
Theft of a copyright (if possible) would be a process ending with the thief owning the copyright not merely possessing a copy of the work.
It's something the *AA's do all the time of course when they rip artists off - but it isn't something that pirates do.
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I'm glad you agree that copyright is property. Mike even admits that it's property under the Fifth Amendment. It sure is weird how he also claims that copyright is not property without any sort of qualification. Seems downright dishonest to me. Once he admits that copyright is property as the word property is used in the Constitution, then why does he go around saying definitively that copyright is not property? The deduction is that his intent is to deceive.
But to your point, infringement is not theft is not trespass, yes, but all are forms of violating someone's property rights. But that's referring to theft, infringement, and trespass in their technical sense. It's also true that theft has a broader usage that's less technical and casts a wider net. It's hilarious to me how obsessed Mike is that everyone use the word theft only in its older, common law meaning, but that he's all too happy to lie about whether copyright is property.
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One is true theft, the other is going against a legalized monopoly.
This is not in any way a statement on the morality of such monopolies or the infringement of such, just the differences between mechnisms.
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http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/201
I know it seems unfamiliar, but you have to learn how the law looks at property, not at how you think the law should think about property.
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What's dishonest is Mike admitting that copyright is property under the Constitution, but then pretending that it's not really property in general. That's dishonesty if there ever was an example. Mike's argument that it's not actually property requires that you pretend like the meaning of property was frozen in time centuries ago. That's not how it works. With the rise of the industrialized society has come the need and recognition of intellectual property. Just like slaves are no longer property today, things change.
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I can't speak for Mike, of course, but I don't see the dishonesty in this.
The law may consider copyright as property, but I don't see how that makes the expression that is copyrighted property.
I know, it's hair-splitting, but it's the kind of hair-splitting that is the foundation of law today.
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The dishonesty is that Mike admits that copyright is property as that word is used in the Constitution, but then he says without qualification that copyright is not property. That's dishonest, and he's just playing with words. His argument that it's not property turns on the fact that the interest in copyright is defined by statute as opposed to arising naturally out of the res like with regular, tangible property. Of course, he's merely making a distinction between two types of property, tangible and intangible, but he's not actually identifying a distinction between what is or isn't property. Whether something is property is very much a question of law if there ever was one, and so it's dishonest to pretend like it's OK to just make up your own definitions of what property should be and tell your readers that that's the way the world actually is. It's not.
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Yes, this is exactly what I said.
Well, then, one of us is misunderstanding what he's saying. My understanding is that he's saying that the expression is not property. The bit sequence is not the property of the artist. The copyright itself, that is, the limited monopoly right, is property by definition.
I've not heard Mike say anything contrary to your explanation.
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By your own logic, you are an incredibly dishonest snake oil salesman.
About expression-as-property, we obviously disagree on that point.
I am more in line with the overall attitude of the Founders. In their debates about including copyright in the Constitution, they were very concerned that if they did so, they'd be setting things up a new artificial type of "property" (what we now call intellectual property), and that this would be a corrosive and terrible thing.
And it turns out that they were right.
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On the one hand, Mike says copyright is property. On the other hand, he says copyright is not property. He's obviously playing word games. He knows that under the law, copyright is property and he's deliberately lying when he claims otherwise.
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The concept of property has existed for ages. You can change so it doesn't reflect that concept anymore thats fine, but it isn't honest to try to leverage the power of that concept for other things.
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What you need to understand is that the word property refers to a bundle of rights in a thing. If that thing is your house, then there's all sorts of rights in that bundle: the electric company may have an easement, your neighbor may have a rights of use, your bank may hold a mortgage, your tenant might have a lease, etc. You are accustomed to thinking of the house as the property--and it is--but the legal view of property focuses instead on all the rights in the thing.
What is or isn't property is always in flux. It always has been. It always will be. Don't be dishonest like Mike and think that you can look to any point in time in the past that suits you and pretend like the word property today must mean the same thing it did on some day in the past. It doesn't work that way.
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What is or isn't property is determined by custom, state law, federal law, common law, etc. The meaning of the term is always in flux. As an extreme example, slaves used to be property, but now that's obviously not the law. Similarly, mortgage-backed securities are a new form of property. Plus, property rights get created everyday through contracts and such. Property just refers to the rights in a thing.
The meaning of the word theft developed at common law, and it's clearly different than trespass (whether to land or chattels) or infringement. But there are those who use theft in a wider sense. I don't care what it's called since theft, infringement, and trespassing are all illegal and all violative of someone else's property rights.
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You never read the US constitution did you?
Otherwise you would know that copyright was devised by the power granted to congress to stimulate learning by granting temporary monopolies if they saw fit. Copyright doesn't even need to exist as long as learning is being stimulated properly, no monopolies need exist except for the wishes of congress to do so.
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The fact that you can't even keep this straight is rather telling.
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I'm glad we have another person agrees. It is obviously so. That's probably why Mike admits that copyright is property under the Fifth Amendment. And, of course, only his dishonesty can explain why he also says that copyright is not property when preaching to his fans.
So what? The enforcement of a copyright itself, however, is an abridgement of the property rights of others. Furthermore, infringement of copyright is not the theft of copyright ownership.
The fact that you can't even keep this straight is rather telling.
I never said that infringement was theft of copyright ownership, nor would I say that because it's not true. If you're going to say I'm wrong as least understand what I'm saying first.
How is enforcement of copyright itself an abridgement of the property rights of another? That makes no sense since if the rights belong to the copyright owner ab initio, then you don't have those property rights in the first place. How exactly are your rights being violated? What rights do you think you have?
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infer
There we go. Theft requires physical control of said item/service/etc or denial of said item/service/etc.
Copying != Theft
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Uh hem...
(...and undefined-ly copied, for that matter)
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You do realize, of course, that by the stroke of a pen Congress could easily render the entirety of this opinion irrelevant? The court did not hold that the 0's and 1's were not property, but that they were not within the scope of the two criminal statutes under which the defendant was charged and convicted.
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Congress can choose to not grant new copyrights, but if Congress tried to take away existing copyrights, there'd be an issue with the Takings Clause. Even Mike admits that copyrights are property for the Takings Clause. Ask him.
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That's how I'd do it! I'm over here now. See how that works?
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Get It Right
There are three matters (1) trade secrets, (2) copyright, and (3) Contracts. Do not get them confused. Do not charge him with an offence he did not commit, namely theft. Making that mistake will result in him walking free. Grown-up lawyers really should know this stuff, well before they start practising.
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Re: Get It Right
Reading is hard, I know!
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