Police Ticketing Informal Rideshare Participants Based On No Law, But To Protect Port Authority Revenue
from the sad dept
We've talked many times about how legacy industries and organizations seek to protect against competition they don't like. One example we've mentioned a few times involves taxi companies and bus companies trying to shut down upstarts such as ride-sharing/carpooling services as being "unlicensed" transportation offerings. What they really mean, of course, is that they're competition in a market with artificial barriers to entry, which artificially keep prices high -- sometimes astronomically high. But, of course, as with any attempt to defeat real competition, those in support of cracking down have some sort of sob story, and governments and law enforcement often fall for it with no evidence.Aaron DeOlivera points us to a sort of twist on the situation described above, where the real issue is people paying less money to the Port Authority of NY. You see, if you are in a carpool (of at least 3 people) and cross the George Washington Bridge (between the Bronx and New Jersey) you save $6 on the toll. That's a decent-sized savings, so people have set up an informal sort of ride share, in that those who want to get across will wait at a nearby bus station, and drivers will swing by and pick them up for the ride. The riders get a free trip across the bridge... and the driver gets a lower toll. Win-win.
Except for the Port Authority. And apparently the police are helping out the PA by giving tickets to people picking up hitchhikers based on absolutely no violation of any law.
... the crackdown on carpools smacks of a revenue-grab by the Port Authority, which has been criticized for lavish pay and benefits. With extensive overtime, some toll collectors make more than $100,000, while salaries for several officers working at the bridge topped $200,000 last year.Even so, the report notes that the police still show up. Even if there's nothing illegal happening, just having the police show up -- and having people think that there might be something wrong -- causes people to worry about taking part.
Curious to see what would happen, Mr. Topyan [an economist who's been observing the practice] recently picked up two passengers in plain sight of a police officer—and was promptly ticketed. Having researched the law, he spent six hours in traffic court and won his case. “The prosecutor was jumping up and down in disbelief,” he says. He didn’t have to pay.
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Filed Under: carpooling, new york, police, port authority, rideshare, taxis
Reader Comments
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Do you work in a toll booth? I think I got change from you once...
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Not Salary
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Re: Not Salary
Sure sounds like earnings to me.
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Re: Re: Not Salary
With extensive overtime.
That's working anywhere from 10-30 hours more than the 40 hours they've already put in!
They get one and a half times their normal payrate for overtime.
The reason these workers get overtime is due to staff cutbacks
There isn't enough staff to work the shifts!
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Re: Re: Re: Not Salary
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It was pretty bad :)
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You get a $40 fine that you know is bogus. Do you take a day off work, which likely will a greater loss then $40, to fight the ticket? Even if you do show that the officer wrote a bogus ticket, there will not be any punishment to him, the police force, the government or anyone else involved in the decision to write these tickets.
So it's in "their" best interests to try to pull any trick in the book to fine citizens, while there is no worry about consequences.
This is a lot like the RIAA/MPAA/Patent Trolls/etc. It doesn't cost them much to try to milk the system for all it's worth. If they get caught, by sending bogus DCMA takedowns or use the courts to extort people, they don't get punished.
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File a bogus copyright claim on someone's comment about your new blockbuster movie? You lose the copyright on your new movie - it immediately gets placed into public domain. No ifs, no buts, no exceptions.
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its a third party company saying "hey, that looked illegal, pay me even tho you have no reason to do so."
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Uh-- where did this come from?
Oh wait-- let me save you the time-- it's from Spencer Jakab from the Wall Street Journal, that evil organization that often puts their content behind a paywall. Are you really relying on a paywalled news source for your information? I thought they were going to shrivel and die for irrelevance on the Internet? Why isn't the tip-jar fueled font of open innovation helping you do all of the legwork for your stories that conveniently fail to give any credit? Why aren't the folks of Somalia, unshackled by patents and copyright, innovating up a storm?
Put another point on the Paywall's line of the scoreboard.
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
He linked to the damn article, so shut up already.
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
2 they kinda have more important things to do besides creating multi-million dollar budget movies that never actually follow the budget. like trying to survive through the day.
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
Hey bob, do you see that part in blue that says "giving tickets to people picking up hitchhikers"?
That's called a hyperlink. Commonly referred to just as a link.
Click it.
It magically transports you to the article where the quote is from.
Welcome to the internet, bob. Learn to use it, or look like an idiot. Your choice.
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Re: Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
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Oh, it's WAY too late for that.
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
There isn't a formal method for blogs to cite source information that I'm aware of but there are plenty of informal methods. I think reasonable the minimum requirement is a link to the source and that has been fulfilled.
Since I don't see how anyone could actually oppose the views put forth in this article (besides the NY police and toll workers), and you didn't oppose them either, you just need to get off your soapbox and work on finding something worth contributing.
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Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
Because assholes from other countries over fished in the waters near Somalia, there's no good fields to grow foods, and a day's wages barely covers food.
About the only thing they can do is take the AK-47s that the Soviets gave them, the boats they have, and go looting for stuff.
They don't really have a choice... Either be pirates and a terror on the seas or die.
"Put another point on the Paywall's line of the scoreboard."
Why?
In fact, bob, since you're failing so hard that you must be losing money, let me give you a hint...
http://www.newyorknewsnetwork.com/at-hudson-river-crossing-picking-up-hitchhikers-takes-t oll-vid-1013
http://www.transystems.com/Home/News-Press/News-In-Motion/June-14-2012/At-Famous-Hud son-River-Crossing,-Picking-Up-Hitchh.aspx
http://nj1015.com/more-nj-drivers-picking-up-hitchhike rs-at-the-gwb-to-save-toll-money-audio/
Took me all of 2 seconds to find via google.
None of which I had to pay for.
Yeaaaah...
Paywalls fail again.
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Re: Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
Actually, the home-grown terrorists killing and raping their own neighbors don't bother using the amazingly-fertile fields to grow food or raise cattle.
They're too busy killing and raping.
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Re: Re: Re: Uh-- where did this come from?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14785304
"As many as 750,000 people could die as Somalia's drought worsens in the coming months, the UN has warned, declaring a famine in a new area."
Last time I checked, drought and fertile are somewhat mutually exclusive...
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/boblogic
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Always wondered...
We need to move back to more competition, not less. We need to make it easier, not harder, to start new businesses. Ever open a small business and see the MOUNDS of paperwork you have to fill out, the huge fees you have to pay and the bureaucratic nightmare that is the reward for being an entrepreneur? Sickening.
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And yet people adamantly want the government to be run like a business. Yeah, let's give the guys with the guns a profit motive.
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Re: ??? | Profit!
The cops already have a profit motive--if they do not write enough tickets the city's finances suffer.
They aren't there for justice, they just hand out extra "fees, fines, and taxes".
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Re: FTFY > You dirty toll pirates....
I wonder if that will change when every car loaded with three passengers is viewed as three toll pirates looking for a 'freeride'?
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Or are you suggesting that the passengers are just people hanging out on one side of the bridge that are willing to get in a car with a stranger to drive across the bridge, only to turn around and walk back?
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If enough people do this, it decreases the number of busses, reducing congestion; and does so without increasing the number of cars.
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Re: Re: Not a carpool to work
How else would these people get across the bridge? (My grandfather took the tan bus from Washington Hts to the Alcoa plant daily for 35 years, so I know that area well, and there are some buses, but a good number of the people doing this would be driving.)
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New Name Time.
Maybe its time to rename Earth. We should call it Ferenginar, and appoint a Grand Nagus while we're at it?
Meanwhiles, those of you who came to Earth from offworld. Big mistake, huh? huh?
Yep - time to visit another cosmic reality elsewheres.
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Re: New Name Time.
Where's my gold-pressed Latinum?
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New Name Time.
Maybe its time to rename Earth. We should call it Ferenginar, and appoint a Grand Nagus while we're at it?
Meanwhiles, those of you who came to Earth from offworld. Big mistake, huh? huh?
Yep - time to visit another cosmic reality elsewheres.
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When I find an article blocked by paywall, guess what? There's a search box, just to the right of the address bar. 95% or greater of the time, I can find either are reproduction of the article or one re-written to avoid the hot news and copyright issue without paying.
Guess which I'm gonna use, willingly and often?
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Re: NYPD?
Crossing the GWB from NJ to NY takes you through a Toll Booth while crossing the GWB from NY to NJ is free (you got charged for both crossings when you did the NJ->NY crossing). Thus since the pickups are being done on the NJ side, I fail to see how the NYPD is issuing the tickets.
I also question how the cops know if the riders are nor coworkers of the driver who are being picked up there. BTW: If I remember correctly there are Ride Share parking lots in the area (or nearby on the NJ Turnpike Rest Stops) where you can park your car to connect with a car pool driver.
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Do something...
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Re: Do something...
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The question then is, how much is it costing the city to 'enforce' the effort to regain the missing revenue? From WSJ "the police often issue citations only after quizzing the occupants to determine that they don't know one another" which implies that they are pulling over many cars who are not ride cheats and therefore not issuing any citations. They don't provide enough info to get a ratio of how many are pulled over vs citations issued but even without that info, its reasonable to assume that the police could be doing ACTUAL LAW ENFORCEMENT which would either prevent costly events or generate revenue from legitimate fines. The latter example wouldn't count towards closing the gap in lost revenue but would instead count towards increasing the revenue lost annually associated with 'ride cheats'.
In summary, issuing citations to 'ride cheats' is actually costing the port authority more money each year than just accepting the $7 million loss.
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FTFY
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It's a bit like a movie company saying that because you bought their movie in a bargain bin for �3 instead of the original �15 you've 'cheated' them of �12!
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What if...
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Re: What if...
Then most politicians and corporate shills will be ticketed to starvation.
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You must spend a fortune in notebooks
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Career Choice
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Sadly, said solution would probably be to make it actually be illegal, raise the fine tenfold, and give any agent who gives out a ticket a $10K bonus for a job well done.
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Get together all the people who were wrongly fined for being "ride cheats", make them a class, and sue the pants off the Port Authority. If it cost them $7 million in revenue, make sure the class-action lawsuit results in at least $21 million between the class and the lawyers.
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Meanwhile... in California
Note that 511.org is run by the MTC who collect bridge tolls (the bridges themselves are actually owned by the state) and even manage the prepaid stored value cards for the various public transit systems (presumably they get a small cut of this revenue but 30 seconds on google didn't find a stat on this). So they're losing money on 2 fronts and continuing to encourage the practice.
The folks at the MTC have realized that, as a government agency, their responsibility is to provide an effective service for their taxpayers. Even if it means less revenue.
P.S. it is worth noting that picking passengers up at a bus-stop is subject to a fine in most Bay-Area communities, but with such well documented pickup locations this doesn't inhibit the practice.
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It could be impeding the flow of traffic, or a minimum speed limit law, or a law about not stopping in certain places, or opening a door while on the road, or unsafe... whatever.
I'm not saying the cops are right. With the given fact, they are certainly wrong. I'm just saying they can't ticket "based on no law".
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Police can just take your money. They don't even need to write up a ticket.
�Audit: Small town Utah cops targeted foreign tourists� by Nate Carlise, Salt Lake Tribune, Jun 12 2012
Police can just take your money. Laws got nothing to do with it.
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Or is the issue how well you know the people you're carpooling with? What if a friend asks you to give two of his friends a ride, but you've never met them before? You pick them up near your house and take them across the bridge. Does that count? Will the cops start quizzing drivers on how well they know their passengers?
Or does it just matter where you pick them up? What if you're giving a ride to two of your friends, but since they live across town, you pick them up along the way, and it just happens to be near a bus stop? Do your friends now have to take a taxi to your house just so that you can then carpool with them from a proper departure point?
So what exactly is the criteria for a 'legal' carpool? How well you know the people? Where you pick them up? Surely the police should be able to answer these questions...
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