Is Trolling Just A Form Of Practical Jokes?
from the it's-all-fun-and-games-until-the-rickrolls-begin dept
As the news of 4chan hitting 1 billion posts has come out, it only seems appropriate that the Surprisingly Free podcast has a fascinating discussion with Stefan Krappitz, the author of the book Troll Culture: A Comprehensive Guide, in which Krappitz tries to suggest that the common view of trolling as being a negative thing is mostly inaccurate. Instead, he suggests, trolling is more a form of practical joking -- "disrupting people for personal amusement." He even suggests that Socrates may have been an original troll, baiting people with silly questions and then mocking them. The overall discussion is quite interesting, even if it seems to underestimate the collateral damage that trolling can cause at times. Still, it does raise some good points, that certainly counter the more common view of completely condemning trolling.
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Filed Under: practical jokes, trolling
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No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
We've seen time and time again that groupthink destroys organizations. Yet once again, we see people infatuated with the idea of minimizing or denying the contributions of people with different thoughts.
So no, it's not a practical joke. I spend my time here typing away because the issues are important enough to me. I want there to be a free and vibrant press that's supported by the populace, not by some foundation or an arm of the government. I want creators to have the freedom to control their work and not have it snatched by a mob.
So quit belittling those who disagree with you and dreaming that it's all some practical joke. No. We're not joking when we say we think you're wrong. We really mean it.
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Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
We've seen time and time again that groupthink destroys organizations. Yet once again, we see people infatuated with the idea of minimizing or denying the contributions of people with different thoughts.
So no, it's not a practical joke. I spend my time here typing away because the issues are important enough to me. I want there to be a free and vibrant press that's supported by the populace, not by some foundation or an arm of the government. I want creators to have the freedom to control their work and not have it snatched by a mob.
So quit belittling those who disagree with you and dreaming that it's all some practical joke. No. We're not joking when we say we think you're wrong. We really mean it.
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Hold on, Mother is calling me...
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Re: Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
That's not why you've earned that label. Stop fooling yourself, it's been explained to you many, many times.
"I spend my time here typing away because the issues are important enough to me."
Then why do most of your posts depend on false assumptions and conspiracy theories which you never correct once proven wrong (your rant against underground clubs as though they were criminal organisations a few weeks back, for instance)?
Surely someone interested in honest discussion would apologise, correct themselves, and continue with the new facts in mind - or provide evidence if you still eblieve you're correct? A troll would disappear from the thread, wading in again with the same falsehoods as though nothing happened in the hopes of riling up people who hadn't seen the previous corrections. Why did you do the latter if you're interested in real discussion?
"We really mean it."
Then prove it. Supply citations, be willing to discuss and accept other ideas yourself. Stop whining about conspiracy theories, "paywalls" and other things to which you seem to hold you own definitions, unique among the English speaking world...
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
Your arguments are full of logical fallacies (when they are not twisted nonsense that couldn't be cut through with the jaws of life).
You don't respond to the questions raised.
You never back up anything you say with evidence.
You consistently use personal attacks.
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
This happens because dispute confirmation bias the pain of having to rethink a view and admit when you are wrong most people are open to having their views changed. So when they run in to some who so clearly isn't open to that change it can be confused for trolling because they find it hard to accept that some one can be so wrong in often none objective and factual ways and yet refuse to see it that it must be some one having a joke.
It's more comforting to think that such people are fake than that they are real and have a vote that means just as much as yours.
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That said I do think Bob is written by one of the Techdirt guy :)
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The Devil's Advocate is a form of trolling - you present an unpopular opinion and defend it even if it seems logically untenable.
Pranks and practical jokes are a form of trolling - you perform the unexpected and convince poeple of things that aren't true, forcing victims to wake up and pay closer attention to everything around them.
The Gadfly is a form of trolling - you challenge assumptions and force people to actually think about what they believe.
Baiting is a form of trolling - you poke at peoples' sensitivities, forcing them to defend themselves over their very real insecurities.
The guy from Twelve Angry Men is a troll. Heath Ledger's Joker is a troll. Socrates is a troll. Voltaire is a troll. Nietzsche is probably a troll. Atticus Finch is a troll. Arius is a troll. Martin Luther is a troll. Martin Luther King Junior is a troll. James Madison is a troll. Thomas Jefferson is a troll.
The list goes on and on. Hosting a prank reality show is trolling. Starting a broad politicla movement is trolling. Redefining philosophy is trolling.
Trolling is poking things that don't like to be poked. Sometimes it's for lulz, sometimes there's a deeper goal.
You can respond to a lulztroll with anger, or with self-examination. You can respond to a legittroll with anger, or with self-examination.
Regardless of the intention, effective trolls hit a nerve. Better to learn a lesson from NarutoGoku69 than to dismiss MLK Jr. as a malicious rabble-rouser.
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Harrassment
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
If you were truly a thoughtful, sincere troll, then it should occur to you that when your jumping-off point is a classic fallacious attack/argument, the remainder of your arguments topple for lack of credibility (and any backup evidence).
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Trolling is simply attention seeking
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Trolls
My recently retired dad is a very very subtle troll and a master of getting people to think . Years of teaching in a high-school will do that to a guy. He was loved by his students for his sense of humor. Best known trolling he did was that no matter what you middle name was, your middle initial was always abbreviated as "J.". When you were asked to come get your test results he would call you by your "full name" and ask you to approach the bench.
It's that type of trolling that should be condoned. It's the type where everyone, including the subject, can laugh.
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
And when you clearly point out that you are not troll and highlight valid points then you normally just get the :
Don't fee the trolls.
Too many stupid people on the web unfortunately.
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Re: Re: Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
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I think it is similar to psychology, a lot of people (especially parents) practice some form of it but how many are really even the least bit effective at it let alone good?
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Re: Harrassment
This was the worst of the worst trolls too. He was very arrogant, thought nothing of others, was into child pornography, suggested he screwed a two year old (and gave advice on how to do it since it is medically impossible) and only behaved when admins were on the servers. The guy was in his own little fantasy world. It was a creepy experience I never want to have again. I still shudder just thinking about it.
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Rules for Life
2. When you lose, refuse to back down. Be more obstinate.
3. Follow the three R's: Respect no one, respect no cause, and take no responsibility for what you are doing or saying.
4. Remember that not giving in to what people want is usually a wonderful stroke of genius.
5. Learn the rules so that you can play in the gray areas without being banned.
6. Blow every little thing out of proportion and call people names.
7. When you realize you've made a mistake, blame someone else.
8. Spend some time creating constructive posts every day. This will confuse people.
9. Change is for the weak, unless it is funnier.
10.Remember that silence is never the answer until you are bored.
11. Live a good, honorable life. That way if people find out who you are they won't believe it is you trolling them.
12. A loving atmosphere is the best place to troll. They never expect it.
13. In disagreements with respected people, discredit them with grammar or spelling errors. Bring up any slightly opposing viewpoint they have ever had.
14. Make sock-puppets, but use proxy servers for them. It's a great way to drive people insane.
15. Be gentle with no-one
16. Once a year, introduce someone else to the fun of trolling. their need to prove you wrong is greater than your need to laugh.
18. Judge your success by how ridiculous other people sound responding to your arguments.
17. Remember that the best fun is one which
19. Approach trolling and sock-puppeteering with reckless abandon.
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Sure you can get people who are both but surely a troll is someone who knowingly sets out to agitate others with misinformation or just generally winding people up, but they actually are aware that they are wrong and just taking the piss.
To often though the person who is labeled a troll is just an idiot who don't realise they're own ignorance.
Some trolls are quite funny and I would say are modern day practical jokers.
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Re: Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
No boB, its not because you have a different opinion, its because you are batshit crazy and some of the shit that comes out of your mouth is sooooo far out of reality it appears, to humans with normal id's, that you must be fucking around.
Now.... we all have done it. We all have been a troll at one time or another. Its fun to fuck around sometimes. But you... you are consistently outta this world with your comments.
This comment was a well thought out one. Probably one of your best.
" I want creators to have the freedom to control their work and not have it snatched by a mob." - Sooo close boB. See batshit crazy. No one "snatches" it away. There is no mob. This is why you get called a troll. No seriously boB.
There is no gang of ppl with pitchforks and torches running around to content creators snatching their works from them.
"I spend my time here typing away because the issues are important enough to me." - Us too. Difference is we base our opinions on facts whereas you base it on shoulda, coulda, and feelings.
"So no, it's not a practical joke."
I dont agree either. When I troll, I know I am being an asshole. Sometimes PPL just dont deserve my time, but deserve to be fucked with. People are assholes... period.
Everyone has it in them.
See ya boB. I had more but gotta go back to work.
I am not joking when I say you are batshit crazy. I really mean it.
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Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
Are you completely out of your fucking mind? How many Techdirtbags have claimed that a judge rendering an unfavorable decision:
1. Doesn't understand the law
2. Has been paid by the AA's
3. Is in the pocket of X?
How many Techdirtbags claim that the DoJ, FBI. ICE, etc operate at the direction of the studios/labels?
Demonoid's seizure is claimed to have been a "gift" to the US due to an upcoming state visit. Megaupload's takedown is sworn to be payback for SOPA's demise. You people are the most paranoid, conspiracy lunatics I've ever come across and now you have the temerity accuse others? You've been wearing that tinfoil hat so long you don't realize its still there.
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Then we have the trolls like my dad. He's taught chemistry for years, and is a well respected individual in the community. He teaches to make you think for yourself by priming you with humor. If he "trolls" you, it is a term of endearment.
Internet trolls are a very bad thing. I think some of the reason is that they lack the capability to realize that other people exist on the other nodes of the line. Most of them have a deep psychological and emotional trauma. From a psychologist's standpoint, I really can tell you that it is a huge problem. Some of them are outright dangerous. My point is that there are many many layers to it, the further you go, the more sour it gets.
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Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Re: Trolling is simply attention seeking
Yes they would. I've seen cases where they don't stop until someone of authority brings the wrath of an entire community upon them. The problem isn't feeding their ego's, it's getting them to shut up. To put it as one of my friends had said "There is troll-lol'ing, and then there's *sighs annoyed* trolling"
You can jab and jibe making all parties laugh (including the person you're trolling) , but you can also keep going not knowing when to shut up (annoying everyone from hearing you).
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Example:
In College, my Philosophy professor was a massive troll, an intellectual troll. He did many things to our class but the biggest one was on the subject of race and equality. He (An african american) setup a debate where the class must choose two sides in the topic "Are black people inferior to white people". One side debating in favor of it, and one against it.
Keep in mind that most of our class (myself included) were liberal, white and very PC individuals who were horrified at the prospect of arguing that any race was inferior to another.
To up the trolling a notch, he allowed students to pick sides freely... and the side that won the debate would get a 10 point bonus to their next exam. He also picked a side himself. Being a master at these types of discussion, he placed himself on the side arguing that black people were inferior...and that side eventually won that particular debate. Mainly because the students on the "black and whites are equals" side relied too much on emotional arguments that didn't hold up to further scrutiny. That and due to the fact that most of the class was on that side, there wasn't much focus in their debate strategy.
Most trolling is not like this, but it is an example of how trolling can be used for intellectual and educational purposes...in addition to amusement for the troll.
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Re: Rules for Life
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Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
I don't know, do you have a figure? It's certainly not 100%. I know plenty who haven't, so why do you leave them out of your ranting?
"How many Techdirtbags claim that the DoJ, FBI. ICE, etc operate at the direction of the studios/labels?"
There's plenty of evidence to support that claim, and the responses from people like you tend to be fact-free personal insults rather than valid opposition (see above). Again, why do you ignore those who don't do that, but still disapprove of their tactics? Inconvenient to your assumptions?
"Demonoid's seizure is claimed to have been a "gift" to the US due to an upcoming state visit. "
Evidence is welcome to the contrary, if you have it. Until then, the timing seems suspicious to say the least.
"Megaupload's takedown is sworn to be payback for SOPA's demise."
Evidence is welcome to the contrary, if you have it. Until then, the timing seems suspicious to say the least.
"You people are the most paranoid, conspiracy lunatics I've ever come across and now you have the temerity accuse others?"
Prove it. You have access to my entire posting history - where did I personally do anything like that? Citation, please.
"You've been wearing that tinfoil hat so long you don't realize its still there."
Citation, please.
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Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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"Trolling" doesn't mean what it used to mean.
Self proclaimed "trolls" aren't funny, they aren't original and more then likely they aren't really trolling they just claim such so they aren't taken seriously.
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Re: Performance Art
"Trolling" defined: A refined subset of "Performance Art"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Trolls can probably decide whether what they do is practical jokes. In this case I probably agree that it is. After all, with most physical practical jokes, the recipient doesn't tend to see the funny side. Tripping people up, pulling their chairs out, covering them with ink ... all practical jokes to the joker, all as welcome to the recipient as trolling.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
It rather is the token of a weak mind to no be able to discuss ideas without making it personal and calling names on people of a different view.
...all conspiring against you.
So the readers here are no longer all "freetard" and "pirates" ? Is it an upgrade or a downgrade to "conspirationist".
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It's become a throw away method for dismissing anyone that doesn't agree with you: You are just trolling me.
It's sad, because it's become another brick in the wall of entrenchment that people here seem to hide behind.
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Re: Re: Rules for Life
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Re: Re: Rules for Life
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There's a semantic split here
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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If someone clearly gets stressed by your trolling, you should probably stop and apologize. A good troll knows where to stop, a bad troll tests the limits if peoples' sanity.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
OK, your turn.
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
Like...pirate apologists?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
You don't need to be "convicted" of something for it to have influence.
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090422/2213024614.shtml
"Judge In Pirate Bay Case Appears To Have Ties To The Copyright Lobby"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090506/1029274770.shtml
"Pirate Bay Judge Accused Of Conflict In Another Case As Well"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090520/0411254949.shtml
"Person In Charge Of Determining If Pirate Bay Judge Is Biased... May Be Biased"
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090520/0411254949.shtml
"Swedish Judge In Charge Of Determining Bias Of Pirate Bay Judge Removed... For Bias"
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Re: Re:
Ok, I'll poor ink on your suit as you head into work, rig the office chair in your cubicle to fall the moment you sit on it, and do it day after day after day like a common troll to see how long it takes for me to get fired or for you to send in a report.
The true art in trolling isn't merely practical jokes I might add. My father used it daily on his students to great effect through his subtle dry humor trolling. Funny thing is, most of his jokes made you think a bit to get the punch line has been brought aware to an issue. Most people who have taken sociology or philosophy in college have witnessed a troll teaching.
The art requires you to not only to evoke a reaction, but also to raise social problem awareness. Now admittedly, some trolls raise the awareness of the problem of trolling quite inadvertently. That type of trolling is where it should end.
My favorite troll of all time is truly my father. He never lets up until either my mom or I give him a look. One of the things I warned my wife about was his quick way of picking on you for the smallest science mistake. I was in another room and I was in earshot of my now wife and my father talking.
Dad: "So how do you like that pop (soda for you New Englanders)"
Wife: *sort of searching for the right words not suspecting a thing* "I don't know, it's sort of water based, I don't like it all that much"
Dad *mocking teasing scoff* *me pausing listening to his response*: "Well you know Mae, all pop is water based"
Every once and a while he will ask her how the water based pop tastes when he sees her drinking Rootbeer or any other soda pop. We all still chuckle about it.
So really the point is, yes there is an art, yes it raises social awareness, and can be more fun if you can get your "victim" to laugh with you about it.
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90% of the ranting is about people who want to consume media the way they want to (on demand, with pause, etc), or having access to the media at all (Game of Thrones, etc)
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
The trolls duking it out here are in mating season for trolls. They are fighting it out over a female troll that only exists in a virtual world It is actually quite common to see these battles for superiority in the grand forest of Internet. One alpha troll trying to outlast the others in a grewling battle over superiority for the right to mate with the imaginary unobtanable female.. If you spot one of these, take heed and observe very closely, but do not get in the middle of it lest one of them gores you with a long pointy stick with mysterious markings forming some sort of trollish language yet to be decrypted by mankind.
I've actually run into people with the denial problem. The internet trolls that live in denial tend to be extremely socially devient. They seem to forget that real humans are on the other side of their machines communicating. Since this certain subgroup of internet trolls can't see the human they talk to, they get descebsitized from being polite and commonly descent towards other users.
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Re: Re: Rules for Life
or a sociopath
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Re: Re: Re: Rules for Life
llortamai, let me explain. These type of people who steal the lunch money are real life trolls. Look at how a bully acts. Now look at the chart.
Bully: Gets kicks off of picking on others who can't help themselves
Devient Troll: If you laugh at that entire chart that's the first comparison.
Bully: Never backs down no matter what.
Devient Troll: Refer to taking a shit (number 2) and 10.
Bully: Has a deep psychological fear of those victims and misdirects that fact by getting others to join in on the bullying.
Devient Troll: Number 14
Bully: Keeps banging away recklessly without knowing the consequences of their actions (recent trends indicate they end up being shot by their victims)
Devient Troll: number 3, number 7, number 9, number 19
"I could certainly see how an oversensitive douchenozzle wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone pushing you and stealing your lunch money and some words typed on the intertubes that you could ignore"
The fact that you use the meme "intertubes" tells me you're a douchebag 12 year old kid whose parents dont give a shit about and abandond you to the internet to distract you from them adding to the surplus population population (to which you are masterbatimg at that thought by now) that is you. It is a clear indication you are someone who thinks he knows what he's doing on the Internet and cares nothing for others. You'll be forever alone living in your parent's basement wondering when the bouncing bed noises will stop at night. Good luck dude, you're a devient troll.
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Re: Re: Re: Rules for Life
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Re: There's a semantic split here
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Trolling has been around since before the Internet even came around. I just recently recognized that my step-dad and his father were IRL trolls. I just never had a term for it. Now I do, and it's easier to call them out on it.
The whole time I was growing up, I knew they were 'trolling'. I just didn't know how to point it out without getting in trouble. Now I just look em dead in the eye and tell em to quit trolling.
What the monkey. Sorry for going off topic...which is a terrible name for clothing store.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20090525/1542304998.shtml
"Swedish Judge In Charge Of Determining Bias Of Pirate Bay Judge Removed... For Bias"
Removed from the case sounds like being disciplined to me. The judge didn't recuse herself, as we saw the NZ judge do in the Dotcom case when there was even the slightest hint of a tangentially related comment.
If you follow the link in that story, it takes you to:
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/second-judge-removed-from-pirate-bay-case
which doesn't even fit your expansive view of a piracy apologist site. This was covered elsewhere as well. Are you denying that it happened?
Why is it so important to you that it must be a conviction or disciplinary issue? You make wild accusations that Techdirt is a piracy apologist site. You support that Kim Dotcom is the epitome of evil based on nothing but accusations. You support kicking people off the internet based on nothing but accusations. Why do only pro-copyright supporters get the benefit of due process and skepticism when accusations are good enough to codemn someone of piracy?
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Re: Trolls
I ended up losing a few years of data on my Facebook because of a forum gaming troll getting out of hand.
(please skip the obvious of having info on Facebook, you know what I mean. I never expected it to get that out of hand).
I troll when I am bored. Plain and simple. I want to see the creative things that come out...the memes....the pics....the silly banter.
There is one guy on our server that will make even YOU into the Futureama Fry meme (Not sure if Trolling, or really stupid).
I can't help but smile, because it's like seeing how the human brain is capable of so much on that smart/stupid line. Very fascinating. Some brain surgeon should get on that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
What? I never said that. I thought it was very appropriate that the 3 strikes HADOPI cases were being referred to the prosecutor in order to take action. Though it seems that whenever due process is applied, the denizens of Techdirt still snivel. And due process is a duty of the judicial process. You have no right to due process from your ISP. You will soon find out as US addresses shown to be chronic infringers are throttled to a snail's pace.
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Yes, most humans will accept statements from people being genuine, and the rest is assumed to be trolling.
When, in fact, there are 50 more shades of what the speaker is trying to accomplish.
On a message board, it's difficult for the listener to distinguish the intent of the authors words. That is why most people, when presented with text that is different from our own ideals in a fashion that is argumentative, the author is automatically shoved into the trolling bucket.
If there is someone with a different opinion, the best way to be heard is to present your side of the topic in a non-threatening, non-name calling way, and see how the conversation changes.
I think that is why most of what is said around here is us vs them mentality. The art of effective communication is essentially hosed because the art of debate is gone.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
It was probably wise for a new judge to be assigned to maintain the appearance of judicial impartiality, but pre-existing membership in an organization is hardly the sort of charge of corruption and influence by the AA's taken as gospel around here. Should a judge who is a member of the ACLU or EFF be removed from a copyright case? How about membership in Planned Parenthood or a pro-life organization or even a Catholic judge hearing a case involving abortion?
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Re: Re: Re: Rules for Life
If someone follows the above list they win a VIP trip to smackjacket status, I really don't have time for their excuses. Act like an ass get treated like one!
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However I've been on the receiving end of 'trolls' who seem to go out of their way to make somebody butthurt. The tactics they employ are highly malicious and dirty, I fail to see how anyone else could be judged for their behaviour.
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Re: Re: There's a semantic split here
It takes both parties listening to what is being said.
For example, if there is a person that is standing in front of you, looking at the ceiling, screaming at the top of their lungs their point of view, they are not engaged in conversation. They are so emotionally wrapped up in their own message that all they do is just stand there and scream.
That's not trolling. Unless they have decided to CHOOSE that method of presenting their viewpoint. Now they are trolling.
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Bloggers trolling their own comments - yes!
http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2001/08/45872
The editor of then-fashionable Linux Advocacy site Linux Today trolled his readership. Linux Today never really recovered. George Tirebiter just went too far, too long. If he'd kept it to the very occasional jab, he'd probably have gotten away with it.
Everything has been thought of once, the problem is to think of it again.
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I would give you details on how to do the troll countering like that and how to spot them, but if I do he will just start using proxy and sock puppet methods to answer back.
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Trolling has been around since before the Internet even came around. I just recently recognized that my step-dad and his father were IRL trolls. I just never had a term for it. Now I do, and it's easier to call them out on it.
The whole time I was growing up, I knew they were 'trolling'. I just didn't know how to point it out without getting in trouble. Now I just look em dead in the eye and tell em to quit trolling."
Pertaining to the last paragraph, how many times has that ever stopped them without a group effort? Now in my father's case, if I, my wife, or my mother ask him to stop he does. But there are those who don't stop and are only out to troll for shock value and replete the same behaviors over and over. Most trolls I come across do actually stop when asked. But for the many who keep on going, you cannot stop them without being really harsh. My point is that it gets very old very quick.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
And pre-existing or previous membership in lobbying organizations is something we talk about all the time around here. TD covers the revolving door politics of Washington all the time. TD covered Judge Beryl Howell's previous lobbying for RIAA when she started rulling on copyright cases.
Yes, judges should recuse themselves if there is something that points to bias. Are there judges that are members of the ACLU or EFF ruling on copyright cases? Care to cite an example, or are you making wild accusations again? Yet we don't see judges recusing themselves when they have the appearance of a bias being pro-copyright. Having religious affiliations (also, a lack of religious affiliations is seen as a religious affiliation) is considerably harder to avoid, but I think judges (in general) have managed to maintain the appearance of not being influenced - and when they haven't, yes, they should be removed from cases.
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Re: Re: Trolls
You have to live with my father for 25 years to get how I feel about that type of troll-lol'ing. I completely agree there ^_^ The beauty of it is you can be smart and troll someone intelegently so that it makes their brain flutter for a moment. But I always make sure that the person I troll ends up laughing. If not, I apologize to that person....which reminds me, i have got to say "water-based pop" to my wife. I haven't said it in a while.
We get a chuckle and a playfully funny "shut up" out of my wife every time my father or I even mentions "water-based pop"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/08/judge-sides-with-porn-p2p-plaintiff-setting-up-le gal-showdown/
When she gets slapped down, are you going to try to squirm out from your comments and say the stories are not coming from reputable sources?
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a proper troll can work without anybody but possibly other skilled trolls catching on to what they are doing.
I have dont this on many tech forums, drive people to do and say things that get themselves banned...without it ever really appearing I did anything to set it off.....
I will admit to blatant trolling as well at times, because, some assholes really really just need somebody to troll the fuck out of them at times....(and because it can be fun to annoy idiots.....)
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Online trolling I use misdirection of the topic and/or if the troll gets too personal/harmful/justmean.
In the gaming community, it doesn't stop until someone is banned or it escalates too far.
Eventually, everyone just agrees that they are tired of beating each other up, and stop posting for a while.
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We actually started an offshoot forum after the original message boards were shut down in 2004 I think? There was a pack of 10ish of us that whittled down over the years to 4 of us.
Some went back after Comedy Central opened up the new boards. I got into World of Warcraft about that time.
Anywho, it wasn't until this very last shut down and people flocked to our board that I understood how deep the troll cave can get. I have had my share of WoW forum trolls, but these people have issues.......
Reminds me of when Jack Sparrow and Barbossa dueled:
"So what now, Jack Sparrow? Are we to be two immortals locked in an epic battle 'til Judgement Day and trumpets sound, hmm?"
"Or you could surrender."
*clangclangclang*
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After I got back from the hospital, my step-dad and his father walked into the living room where I was laying on a foam mattress in front of the TV with a bunch of pillows. They look at me and said things like "Oh, you think you are living the life, ehy? We should make you go out and feed cows right now. Get up, get dressed!" and "I think you only broke your arm because you are jealous of your baby sister."
It took me a while into my adult life to understand they were trolling me. Up until that point in my life, I had never run across people that behaved like that. It was scary and confusing.
I guess that is what makes it so easy for me now to observe the conversations people have, and participate in a fashion that runs along the funny streak.
One of our funny ones was...I would always ask when we were going somewhere..."Who's going to be there?". His response was always "George Harrison".
I was almost an adult before I ever learned the answer to that one.
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Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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Re: Re: Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
I can honestly say that I've never intentionally trolled. I just don't see the fun in it.
However, there have been many (and will be many more) times when I've said stuff that ended up to be braindead, or said something motivated by anger that put me in a less than flattering light.
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I don't like this subject
That said, "troll" is an oft overused label applied carelessly and with intent to berate and belittle those with minority opinions on any given thread/topic. (key word: opinions)
Be sincere, be truthful, hold to your opinions only until it is proven to be untenable. You can even be nice if you really want to but you should probably try, even if it's hard, to be respectful. Other people are smarter than other people. Learn or burn.
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Prank vs. Prank
A couple keeps trolling each others and show it to the whole world.
Each video with a million views from what I could see.
Would you put glue on the hair gel of your man?(what man uses hair gel anyways?)
Would you throw a lobster in the shower and see your girlfriend running naked from it?
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I mean if those target don't consider the trolls to be their friends that means when you target your friends they are not your friends anymore and thus you are harrassing your ex-friends.
:)
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Re: Trolling isn't a joke-- you're just denying people disagree
No, bob, we don't think you're a troll. We think you're a shill. There's a difference between the two, but often enough the lines blur to the point that some ACs who post here can be considered shitrolls.
So no, it's not a practical joke.
I don't think it's a joke either; I believe that you are someone who has a deep loathing of fair use, libraries and innocent-before-guilty. You think that a publishing company that is penalised for violating its contract has to do with copyright laws and that agreeing with this action somehow means we want stronger copyright. You support the methods of John Steele because you're an independent producer... whatever the hell that means. I don't know; I have no idea of works you produce or if you actually produce anything at all. For all I know you could just be in this issue because you like to watch lawyers make money or something.
No, bob, you're beyond a joke. Nobody could be this persistently, obsessively obtuse and oblivious. You're bordering on the edges of menace.
We're not joking when we say we think you're wrong. We really mean it.
Who the hell is this "we"? Is it some collective like Torrentfreak's Anon whose only purpose is to gloat at everyone else, claiming that everyone will get their three strikes and they'll be up there mocking us?
You can take comfort, bob, in the fact that I believe you mean it. I believe you mean to be a psychopath devoid of any attachment to reality.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
That's because - stop me if I'm going too quickly here - I've NEVER made those claims. Those claims have been made by others, sometimes backed with citations, sometimes presented purely as opinions. I happen to agree with some of those opinions, partially agree with others (although I feel they overreach) and don't agree with the rest.
Unfortunately, your pea brain appears incapable of separating my personal opinions from those of others, so you attack a strawman based on claims I've never made and opinions I've never held.
On the other hand, YOU are making the claim that the opinions held by others here are wrong. I'm simply asking you to cite the data on which you're basing that conclusion.
"Unless your citation consists solely of your observation of "suspicious timing"- which isn't worth a bucket of warm spit."
I stated an opinion based on the evidence currently available to me. Unless you have more/alternative evidence (in which case, cite it), my opinion is just as valuable as yours. We can discuss it if you wish, but you've already shown yourself unwilling to do anything other than reject the opinions of others because they don't match yours. Pathetic.
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I've been saying that for a while, and where I expect people to get mad at me for saying it =P
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Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
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As you suspect, the answer is not very long. However that's not the point. In that example you would, presumably, classify what you were doing as pranking or practical joking. I would call it harassment or trolling.
My point is those on the receiving end of the nastier trolls have a different opinion of what's going on that the perpetrators. One action, two names. Both cause hassle for someone else for your own amusement.
And with each there are levels - if you switched my mouse around occasionally or used dry humour like your father it is on a very different level to causing physical damage or similar with practical jokes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rules for Life
First, it was meant as a joke. I use llortamai when I want people to know that a troll is coming (read it backwards). When I want to do some serious, more subtle trolling I pick something else or go AC. What you see above is not my usual MO. I do introduce others to trolling, and I do go on the occasional 'bully' kick, but on the whole I just look for the active trolls in a community that get people's panties in a bunch, copy their style, and add something so far out there that no one is sure if I'm a troll or deep cover. I have a fantastic time doing it too. I'm not one of those sad sacks that sits on the internet all day looking for someone to troll. I come out twice a week or so during breaks from work or while I'm waiting on my wife to get home. It's a hobby, the same way some people build model airplanes or play an instrument.
I actually enjoyed your list comparing my original list with bullying. I don't agree with all points, but there were some very good, thoughtful responses there that we should debate sometime. Here and now is not the place, but I'm sure if you keep coming here you'll see me again.
As far as your comment about me being a 12 year old: For someone who claims to be a bit of a troll whisperer ("downing" them) I'm surprised you went there. That usually just enrages people or sends them to troll under a different name. They aren't taken down, they're momentarily displaced. Once in a while you'll find one that will point out that just because that's the way that you choose to live your life doesn't mean it is the way the rest of us live. Sometimes you'll even find one that is gracious enough to apologize for any noises you might have heard last night (although not the really deviant ones that make the weirdest noises).
What might really surprise you about someone like me is that while this list was a joke, I live by rule number 11. I give to charity, volunteer, and I am generally very kind in real life.
I'm sorry if you are butthurt over a list buddy. However, it just proves that it did its job. It was a blatant, ham-fisted way to troll and by feeding me you got caught up in it. The only way to really kill off a troll for good is to ignore them entirely. Debating someone who has no skin in the game doesn't make a bit of difference. Sad attempts at making fun of someone who doesn't know you and doesn't care about your opinion of them isn't downing one. Eventually we just get bored and walk away to troll someone else.
I've kept this (mostly) civil to educate you on the real way to down a troll, and to show you that you are so very, very wrong in so many ways. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd like to have an actual debate on the list sometime. You seem like you are a really smart dude when you're not hurling infantile insults like a 5 year old whose feelings were hurt.
Remember, there is no actual debate with someone who is in troll mode. There is no shutting them down with reason and logic. Frothing at the mouth and hurling insults just makes me feel that I've done my job in riling someone up. The only way to shut them down is to get a large enough portion of a community to ignore them long enough so that they lose interest and walk away.
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It was just one tweet!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: No, trolling is worse. IT's a way to live in denial
And they think we drink kool-aid. LOL
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"I could certainly see how an oversensitive douchenozzle wouldn't be able to tell the difference between someone pushing you and stealing your lunch money and some words typed on the intertubes that you could ignore."
You also should have explained all of that list. You tried a good cover, but the fact is you are still a troll.
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I'll explain this calmly to you. People who were victimized to the point of being "butthurt" is a sign that they feel victimized and potentially traumatized by the ammount of trolling done. What a devient troll fails at doing is realizing there is a point to stop. It's more tantamount to bullying in most cases.
I was severely victimized by a devient troll at one point. I have seen the ENTIRE spectrum of trolls in my lifetime after it. If someone feels hurt or upset by your actions, is it not the right thing to do and stop in consideration of somebody else's feelings? Even if it isn't you, you can see how it effects the one person. Don't get me wrong, but there is a difference between getting a rise out of someone, and totally attacking them on a personal level just for fun.
As for netiquette, most people fail to read jokes or sarcasm in text unless it's painfully obvious. That is because you cannot see the body language of the person conveying the message. The type of trolling that causes traumatization is tantamount to being a bully. I've had a few patients in my time come in from such traumatuzation and after experiencing it first hand myself, I think that I have a better perspective on where to put my gaurd up.
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DataSheet, you raise an excellent point. I think those types of appologies are quite unacceptable. You made me think a bit about it and I have a good compromising thought on appologies that I think we could both agree upon. I am not debating your statement, I'm just trying to establish where I think the grounds of apologies are.
I didn't initially mean those types of apologies, but you are correct. Some do not stop and don't mean it. What I mean by "apologize" is coming to the realization that you hurt someone. Might not have been your intention to hurt the person, but you did. There are many ways to make a very genuine and sincere apology. As you pointed out (in context), most of the ones that continue to laugh at how traumatized you are don't really carry any sincerity.
It's when the apologies are given by a person who feels really bad about their actions, sympathize with the person they traumatized, and are sensitive enough not to continue on trolling are the ones that are sincere.
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The one thing I'm sure you've considered is that each person has his or own limits of the amount they can take. The only thing I can say is that if you troll without butthurting someone, annoying them and others to pieces, and generally give the person a chance to breathe about it, then you're a very awesomely wonderful troll.
The way I see it, the amount of traumatization someone receives is based on their psychological limit of being picked on. Translation: it's in the eye of the beholder. That means the person being victimized should be able decide for themselves when enough is enough and will express it. Now if you cannot recognize that when someone says they are victimized (note it has to be a genuine feeling of being victimized), and don't stop if asked in general, then the trolling would be considered at a bullying/harrassment level.
Just to be clear I quite agree with you. I felt I should add a bit to the collective thought at hand.
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You miss the point of trolling. Not only do you lack the capacity to comprehend the words written here, you seem to have a singular wit. Nobody is laughing with you and are more likely laughing at your stupidity. I hope that you not do this on any other topic discussions, you're just making a bigger hole for your grave for other trolls to laugh at. Maybe you do need a bit of psychotherapy yourself.
Don't give me the "I was only joking" bit, you thought yourself funny. You have the right to laugh at your own stupidity.
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What if I threatened you for real and I told you that it's free speech?
If you can't stand people complainin' about free speech, why don't you deal with it?! If you want others to respect you, respect them too.
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If you ask me, true anti-trolls don't ever use racist words because racism's what trolls use.
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