Court: Fining Jammie Thomas $9,250 Per Song Infringed Motivates Creative Activity
from the really-now? dept
This is hardly a surprise, but similar to the Joel Tenenbaum case, Jammie Thomas-Rasset (the other person sued for copyright infringement for using a file sharing system), has lost again. The appeals court (8th Circuit) has ruled that $9,250 per song infringed is perfectly reasonable and that the judge in the case, Michael Davis, erred in calling for a new trial after the initial jury verdict (the first of three). There were a number of procedural issues here, and it's worth pointing out that Thomas-Rasset herself more or less asked the court to bring back this first verdict and focus on the Constitutionality of the damages amount. So, the whole mess with the three separate district court trials sort of gets swept under the rug. However, the court simply isn't buying Thomas-Rasset's claim that the statutory damages are unconstitutionally punitive and a violation of due process. Basically, it says that the fact that statutory damages are completely out of whack with actual damages doesn't matter, because the point of statutory damages is that they're disconnected from actual damages on purpose (because, in theory, they're put in place because actual damages are difficult to assess).Given that, the court then takes the statutory range (basically $750 to $150,000 -- upper limit is $30,000 if not willful) and basically says, "well, $9,250 is at the low end of the range, so it's fine."
We conclude that an award of $9,250 per each of twenty-four works is not “so severe and oppressive as to be wholly disproportioned to the offense and obviously unreasonable.” .... Congress, exercising its “wide latitude of discretion,”... set a statutory damages range for willful copyright infringement of $750 to $150,000 per infringed work.... The award here is toward the lower end of this broad range. As in Williams, “the interests of the public, the numberless opportunities for committing the offense, and the need for securing uniform adherence to [federal law]” support the constitutionality of the award.Because of this, it argues that crazy copyright statutory damages somehow automatically "motivate the creative activity."
Congress’s protection of copyrights is not a “special private benefit,” but is meant to achieve an important public interest: “to motivate the creative activity of authors and inventors by the provision of a special reward, and to allow the public access to the products of their genius after the limited period of exclusive control has expired.” ... With the rapid advancement of technology, copyright infringement through online file-sharing has become a serious problem in the recording industry. Evidence at trial showed that revenues across the industry decreased by fifty percent between 1999 and 2006, a decline that the record companies attributed to piracy. This decline in revenue caused a corresponding drop in industry jobs and a reduction in the number of artists represented and albums releasedThe court then accepts as fact (a) these highly dubious claims that the record labels are in trouble and it's all due to copyright infringement online and (b) that such awards actually act as a deterrent. The truth is both of these statements are factually incorrect. The record labels are in trouble because they failed to adapt to a changing market. And awards of many thousands of dollars for infringing on a single song don't act as a deterrent at all. They just seem so far away from any sense of reality that they actually make people respect copyright even less.
I've long been a believer that the RIAA and the labels sued Tenenbaum and Thomas-Rasset for just a couple dozen songs, but then kept making the point that they were really sharing over a thousand to defend the ridiculously large awards. If that's the case, then they should have sued over all of the songs -- because you can't defend against that which you weren't sued over. In this appeal, Thomas-Rasset more or less tried to use a variation on that argument to prove the insanity of the $9,250 number, pointing out that if she had been sued over 1,000 songs, then she would have owed $9.25 million, which just seems obviously ridiculous. Unfortunately, the court makes a weird statement to avoid that logic:
The absolute amount of the award, not just the amount per violation, is relevant to whether the award is “so severe and oppressive as to be wholly disproportioned to the offense and obviously unreasonable.”Is that really true, though? The court seems to be saying that it's only the total amount that matters, and not the amount per violation. But that makes no sense. Since the question is whether it's "disproportioned to the offense" then, um, the offense itself is important. Yet, here the court is arguing "24 songs or 1,000 songs, doesn't matter -- just the total amount matters."
The court also said that Judge Davis shouldn't have ordered a mistrial, as he did over faulty jury instructions in that original jury trial. The issue was over mistaken jury instructions, concerning whether or not "making available" is infringement. The RIAA was hoping that the court would also confirm their highly questionable theory that merely "making available" (i.e., putting something in a shared folder) is infringement itself, rather than the view of many that you have to show something that actually violates one of the rights under the Copyright Act (distribution, reproduction, etc.). Making available is not one of those rights, but the RIAA and copyright maximalists like to pretend it is, and they were hoping the court here would say it was. Instead, the court punts on the issue, saying that because it can handle the main issues at hand without having to deal with the making available question, they'll skip it, thank you very much:
But because the verdicts returned by the second and third juries are sufficient to justify these remedies, it is unnecessary for this court to consider the merits of the district court’s order granting a new trial after the first verdict. Important though the “making available” legal issue may be to the recording companies, they are not entitled to an opinion on an issue of law that is unnecessary for the remedies sought or to a freestanding decision on whether Thomas-Rasset violated the law by making recordings available.Thomas-Rasset's attorneys have made it clear they plan to appeal, though there's no guarantee that the case will go anywhere. It appears unlikely that there will be any sort of circuit split between this case and the Tenenbaum case, as both seem to be heading in similar directions (though somewhat different paths). And, as I've said before, both of these cases were the wrong ones to fight for a precedent on. In both cases, you have clear examples of "bad actors" -- who not only infringed, but knew they were infringing -- and who then took steps that make it easy to portray them as bad actors in court, whether it was trying to blame others or outright lying to the court. Both Thomas-Rasset and Tenenbaum should have settled their cases long ago. There are important Constitutional questions about statutory damages for copyright, but these two make bad cases and they're making it easy for the courts to put in place dangerous precedents that guarantee that copyright law gets no respect from the public, and that damages are wholly outside the realm of reasonable.
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Filed Under: actual damages, copyright, file sharing, jammie thomas-rasset, statutory damages
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After the limited period of exclusive control has expired
REPEAL THE SONNY BONO COPYRIGHT TERM EXTENSION ACT.
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The court then accepts as fact that (a) these highly dubious claims that the record labels are in trouble and it's all due to copyright infringement online and (b) that such awards actually act as a deterrent. The truth is both of these statements are factually incorrect. The record labels are in trouble because they failed to adapt to a changing market. And awards of many thousands of dollars for infringing on a single song don't act as a deterrent at all. They just seem so far away from any sense of reality that they actually make people respect copyright even less.
They failed to adopt to a changing market? LOL! That's code for pirates ate their lunch and willfully violated their rights. Ever the apologist, Mikey. You blame the victims. The court of appeals knows better than to blame anyone but the pirates, i.e., the intentional wrongdoers. Funny how your pirate logic doesn't ever hold up in court. Rather than blame the party that did no wrong, they blame the part that actually did something wrong. Crazy.
And please, stop claiming that you know for 100% sure that these damages don't act as a deterrent ("don't act as a deterrent at all"). Rubbish. I don't let my kids or friends pirate at my house because I worry about such damages. I suspect others do as well. Only an apologist would claim that it has no deterrent effect whatsoever, and then offer zero proof to back it up. That's working backwards (your specialty!).
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Court completely ignored looking at the damages
The court also seems to have put a lot of weight on the labels' claim that she shared 1000 but they only sued on 24 against her. She was found guilty of sharing 24 songs. It is completely improper to consider that she was "only" sued for 24 but she could have been for 1000. This fact is irrelevant to the question of the constitutionality of damages.
Kudos to the labels I guess - their misinformation campaign was leveraged to great success here. They got ridiculous damage multipliers affirmed with shoddy facts that should never have been admitted or considered by any court.
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Re: After the limited period of exclusive control has expired
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And I thought you only did it because of moral reasons -- at least that's what you were claiming this morning in a different thread. Yet here you are flat out admitting that if the statutory damages risks were lower, suddenly your morals would change and you'd let your kids file share?
Ha!
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I don't worry about it. So we're now tied 1 to 1 on "proof" without anything else to back it up.
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That's partially what the court said. You left out the inconvenient parts:That they're "out of whack with actual damages doesn't matter" because they are about more than just private injury--they're about the public wrong and the public interest, and they're meant to deter others from committing the same wrongful acts. Truth sucks, I know. Don't blame the messenger (and don't skip over the parts you don't like).
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It motivates me...
Knowing that the courts will occasionally defend the rights of the hard working creators is more than enough to spur me on to start writing again. Maybe even singing.
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Those laws were repealed (eventually) for the same reasons these will be.
a) They didn't work.
b) They brouight the law itself into disrepute.
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Re: It motivates me...
Cool, can't wait to check you out on MySpace.
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And I thought you only did it because of moral reasons -- at least that's what you were claiming this morning in a different thread. Yet here you are flat out admitting that if the statutory damages risks were lower, suddenly your morals would change and you'd let your kids file share?
Ha!
I expected one your minions to make this point. And I already had planned my response. You guys are too obvious. I had house-guests last week. I gave them the code for my wifi, and I told them to please not download/upload/stream/make available anything copyrighted. Why? Because I don't want to face that kind of liability and because I think it's wrong. I tell my kids not to infringe because it's wrong and I don't want the liability. Sad try at a "gotcha!", Mike. Really. The liability is but one factor for why I don't permit it in my house. This stuff isn't hard.
Now, why haven't you actually addressed my points, like about how you have no proof that it's an effective deterrent? Unwilling to admit you made that up?
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Wish I could upload my used car.
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Re: It motivates me...
Let's hope the courts will stop doing that then. If they do they I'm off to buy some earplugs!
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Then the change in amounts doesn't make a difference. It doesn't act as a deterrent because you already admit that you don't do it because you think it's wrong.
So, it doesn't act as a deterrent and you were lying.
Now, why haven't you actually addressed my points, like about how you have no proof that it's an effective deterrent?
Because we have centuries of history that show the increased enforcement has never, ever worked as a deterrent for copyright infringement. Never. There's no proof of it. Every time enforcement increases, you get a very brief decline in the activity until it picks right back up again at the previous pace.
I didn't make that statement out of nowhere. It's every single bit of research on this subject.
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You don't even think about wtf you are fighting for...it's all vitriol coming down from trained mentality. Either way I dream of an actual republic establishing itself in this country soon enough, democracy is a joke.
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according to you mike, since murder, rape and pedophiles still continue to do these things, against the law, and they KNOW it is against the law, but has no effect on them what so ever, we should eliminate the law then?, according to your logic?
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Just proves that your courts have yet to learn the lessons of the Bloody Code that draconian punishments intended as a deterrent don't work.
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Just in case you haven't figured it out yet...
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Re: It motivates me...
For gosh sakes NO!
The dogs just stopped howling from the last time.
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stop claiming that you know for 100% sure that these damages don't act as a deterrent
At what point is a deterrent effective? If it deters one person from doing something, is it effective? If it fails to deter one person from doing something, is it ineffective?
And for what it's worth, I believe Mike's point is that if you chase down Kazaa users, the public moves to BitTorrent. If you chase down torrent trackers, they will move to file lockers. If you chase down file lockers, there's always the sneakernet. In essence, you are playing whack-a-mole.
You might consider it a deterrent because it drives people away from Kazaa, but I do not consider that a deterrent because those same people just go somewhere else like torrents, file lockers, etc.
Honestly, I'm amazed that people like you will defend ends-life-as-we-know-it level fines for something like this. Yes, Jammie Thomas deserves punishment, but over four to forty years worth of median household income in the US? You do realize that the law being used against her was originally designed for people who were engaging in commercial copyright infringement for profit and that she was not a commercial operation and she was not doing this for profit? How can you be okay with this kind of outcome?
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The problem is availability. Look at Steam and Netflix, do they look like they're in trouble like the old gatekeepers?
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Re: It motivates me...
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Sooo.... your saying you would pirate but your scared you will be caught and fined, NOT because you have respect for the copyright system.
Alright way to go.......
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Re: Re: It motivates me...
I sing all of the time in the shower and I'm certainly whistling now. That has nothing to do with whether anyone is paying me.
But it takes work to put on a good show and it takes money. Top artists often rehearse for months before getting to the stage. New artists often practice even longer. The rich can always self-fund these as follies, but the average joe can't work on big art full-time without revenue.
When I hear that copyright is being enforced, I know that the decision will help spread out the costs more equitably and probably also bring more revenue. That means more artists can devote more time to creating. It's not just a hobby but it's a job.
That's why I'm singing.
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So, it doesn't act as a deterrent and you were lying.
I don't want people in my house to infringe for more than one reason. The fact that the damages are so steep is why I'm especially careful to warn house-guests not to do it (my kids already know better). If there were only the wrongness of it, without more, I wouldn't be so adamant that house-guests not infringe on my wifi. So no, it's not a lie. The damages are a deterrent for me. I personally am proof that your theory of absolutely no deterrent effect ever is wrong.
Because we have centuries of history that show the increased enforcement has never, ever worked as a deterrent for copyright infringement. Never. There's no proof of it. Every time enforcement increases, you get a very brief decline in the activity until it picks right back up again at the previous pace.
I didn't make that statement out of nowhere. It's every single bit of research on this subject.
Centuries of history show that enforcement never, ever, even in the slightest works as a deterrent. LOL! Citation needed. Give me a break. I love how you pretend like these things are crystal clear and that there's no other possibility and that what you're saying is the gospel truth without any variations whatsoever. Do you really believe this nonsense, or are you being intentionally disingenuous? I suspect the latter. But please, cite your proof positive that absolutely positively every single time no other possibility on earth enforcement doesn't act as a deterrent. Not once, not ever. Never, ever. I'll await this proof that must have been handed down by God personally, that's how perfect it is. Sheesh, you're a piece of work.
I know you have no such proof. And I know you're too dishonest to admit it. You do realize that there exists no infallible studies, right?
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Sooo.... your saying you would pirate but your scared you will be caught and fined, NOT because you have respect for the copyright system.
Alright way to go.......
Nope. I've already explained that there is more than one reason. I didn't say damages were the ONLY reason. It's not hard to understand. Do you think people always have one and exactly one reason for doing things? Sheesh you guys are desperate.
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Re: Re: Re: It motivates me...
Revenue from live performances is not affected by copyright enforcement on recorded music. What is your point?
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Can we crowd fund this?
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Simple logic.
If you have two reasons then by definition one is redundant. Do you unsde4rstand that?
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Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
No one ever sued me.
The difference? Jammie had a job and money in the bank. I didn't.
RIAA never sues anyone who doesn't have money to pay, or a paycheck to slap a lien on.
This is all about money, and only about money.
Fuck the Eighth Circuit and the whores who sit on it.
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Re: It motivates me...
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If you have two reasons then by definition one is redundant. Do you unsde4rstand that?
No. I don't understand. Because it's not true. A person can multiple reasons for doing something, some of which are sufficient, some of which aren't, some of which are necessary, and some of which aren't. What you're saying isn't logical at all.
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What's that say? That not even death will keep people from copying.
At that point, the rest of your comment isn't even worth ripping apart line by line.
And could you please get off your high horse. We get it, you're apparently morally superior to the rest of us (and you certainly act like quite the innocent when others insult you, I guess we'll just ignore all your slights about Mike and Marcus and everyone in general in such situations... because they kind of ruin your credibility when it comes to crying foul over cheap shots).
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Support Local & Indie Art !
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You oversimplify things, Joe. That's why you don't understand them. These aren't football games where "a win is a win."
"They failed to adopt to a changing market? LOL! That's code for pirates ate their lunch and willfully violated their rights."
And again, you didn't understand what you read. The changing market includes Spotify, for example.
You're just here to taunt. it might be time for you to go.
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One out of three ain't bad
If #1 and #3 justify $9,000 per distribution, they justify $1 gazillion billion. There is no need for minimum damages if minimum damages can never be invoked in the face of “the interests of the public ... and the need for securing uniform adherence to [federal law].”
The public good and the need for making people obey can be used to justify any and all actions, including shooting someone without cause.
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One anti-pirate sentiment
They don't motivate people to buy, however, which is the reason for the drop in revenues. That's a fatal flaw in the court's reasoning here.
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Re: Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
Carry on in ignorance, dear blogger.
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Argument has been invalidated.
Ignore the AC I am responding to everyone.
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Re: It motivates me...
As a writer, I must say, what you said is so insulting that I wish you were here right now, for I would hit you so hard that you would wake up in the hospital months later.
If you need the government to hold your hand so you can write, then you should just go to sleep and let real writers put stuff out there for people to enjoy.
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Works good for speeding, parking tickets, and of course the IRS. Keep wishing.
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Re: Re: Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
Like, say, announcing that the wrong presidential candidate got elected.
Nothing like that ever famously happened.
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RIAA deserves no respect
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Of course, that would just lead to more questions, like "why is one woman being penalized for the actions of hundreds or thousands of people?", and "if someone who downloaded from her was caught, would they be fined as well, allowing the company to collect more money than they claim was actually lost?"
It's a bit of a moot point, since these days it's service providers who are under attack rather than individuals, but still.
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This will cause everybody out of disrespect for the law to break the law. This is the bottom line, this will be the result from the Tenenbaum and Thomas-Rasset decisions.
Liberty for the people arise from actions such as these.
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Re: Re: Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
If we want to be picky about it and separate downloading and uploading, we wouldn't have this outcome.
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I understand that but for piracy, the companies that did nothing wrong wouldn't have been so devastated. Mike focuses on the victims and blames them for not adapting. The court and I focus on the parties that actually did wrong. I understand the need to adapt with the market. I think it's important though to lay blame on those intentionally do wrong.
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Re: RIAA deserves no respect
Don't know if you're joking or not, but I know people who say that and are truthful. This is your "deterrent" at work.
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Looks like a double edged sword to me - cuts both ways.
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Today's Fun Fact is about: zombies.
In most parts of the world, zombies are known for repeating "BRAINS" over and over. However, in Techdirt, zombies utter the more complex "ADDRESS MY POINTS". To date, leading zombologists have been unable to offer any insight regarding this odd behavior; however, the general agreement is that this particular subspecies still qualifies as "zombie". Just as traditional zombies never stop demanding brains no matter how many they eat, Techdirt zombies will never be satisfied no matter how many times you address their points.
This has been today's Techdirt Fun Fact. Until next time!
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If I were one of them, I would *totally* go to http://www.ubuntu.com/ and download an ISO. Over 600 megabytes of copyrighted stuff. Quite valuable too, over a million dollars worth (take a look at http://www.dwheeler.com/sloc/ to see how much).
I understood the point you were trying to make, but not downloading or uploading anything copyrighted is flat out impossible. In today's insane copyright regime, everything is copyrighted by default, with very few exceptions (like really old stuff or things produced by a few governments). Your wording was sloppy.
You should have said "please not download/upload/stream/make available anything copyrighted unless the copyright owner gave explicit permission". And even then you have a problem. Say I use your wifi to read a blog which has a picture of a cute cat. Said picture happened to be copyrighted, and the copyright owner never gave explicit permission (either because it was copied without the copyright owner's knowledge, or because the copyright owner simply does not care about silly legalities and does not care if people copy the cute picture). I just downloaded a copyrighted picture without explicit permission from the copyright owner.
So, a better one then: "please not download/upload/stream/make available anything copyrighted, unless you have an explicit or implicit license or can say it is fair use or [insert other limitations and exceptions to copyright]". And then the house-guest gives up using your wifi, because the house guest would have to be a lawyer to know whether he has a valid implicit license, whether the one giving said implicit license had the right to do so, whether one of the many narrow exceptions to copyright applies, and so on.
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In this court order we've taken something greater then her half her life time earnings. But since congress has not changed the damage calculation since the 80s its becoming a big sore spot. Sadly no congress critter is willing to make a change other then perhaps Ron Wyden I don't think anything will change for a while.
The kinks in the armor will really show when we get internet savvy reps from more then a handful of states, but I doubt that will happen for a good 20 years.
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I didn't unsde4rstand it either.
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Not true.
When I go to the NBC.COM site, I feel that I have license to watch the content they provide. When I got to YouTube, I make the good faith assumption that they have the rights to distribute the material.
If I went to a site called "pirate movie download den", I can be pretty sure they don't have the rights. When in doubt, air on the side of caution.
You don't need to be a lawyer to have common sense. It's pretty comical to think otherwise.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: It motivates me...
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if sharing is so bad
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OK, guide me through the world I live in. I go to one torrent site and they have very strict rules for uploading. Nothing on any label that objects to their music being shared, nothing by any artist who objects. I've uploaded there and I'm very confident that the music I get at their site is OK to share and distribute.
The other sites I go to don't have rules, but I see a lot of the same music, so I know they have music that I can legally download.
HOW DO I TELL WHICH IS WHICH? Are average music consumers really expected to keep up-to-date lists of all the no-downloading-allowed labels and artists? Seriously?
I think what you're saying is that "free" should not be a legal distribution model. And you also seem to be saying that content that is legally uploaded and downloaded from a site like Pirate Bay is somehow tainted because not all of their torrents are OK with the RIAA/MPAA/porn producers, etc.
You don't seem shy about reiterating your arguments. Please respond.
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Re: Re: Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
Specifically, in the first trial, the jury instructions were such that she was to be found liable for infringement if the jury believed that she had infringed the reproduction right (by downloading) or the distribution right (by making available). Evidence was presented in favor of both. The jury found that she infringed, period. In the second trial, the erroneous "by making available" was removed from the definition of distribution, but the instructions and result were otherwise pretty much the same. In the third trial, whether she had infringed was not at issue, so it's irrelevant. And in the appeal, the court made very clear that it was not going to weigh in on whether making available is really an infringement of the distribution right.
So to me, regardless of whether making-available is distribution, it seems pretty evident that she was on the hook, and got pounded for the downloading just as much as the distributing.
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Re: Re: Re: Using her numbers, at one time I would have been subject
Yes, there may have been one or two songs I downloaded that I didn't upload, but that happens when you're the last to grab the second album from a one-hit wonder band.
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At the time of the start of this period of (alleged) decline (1999-2006), five of the six major labels had been convicted by the Justice Department of engaging in price fixing. Perhaps some of this (alleged) loss in revenue was owing, not to piracy, but to the fact that the record companies had to cease their criminal activities.
Also, coincident with the start of this period of (alleged) decline, members of the RIAA chose to prosecute their fans. Speaking for myself and handful of friends, I can safely say that this contributed to this (alleged) decline in revenues -- at that point I swore off purchasing anything from RIAA-represented labels, after nearly three decades of building a collection of thousands of albums, over six hundred CDs, and over 60 concert videos on VHS.
Maybe in your eyes they did nothing wrong, but their behavior was sufficiently egregious for many music fans to stop supporting the industry.
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Re: if sharing is so bad
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I have but a single, very simple question for you: does there exist a single person in the US that will choose to not pirate something that they would have pirated had Thomas only gotten a $111k fine? How about a $55k fine? A $27k fine?
And if you're feeling generous, here's a second question: does there exist one single person who will pirate something today because Thomas did not get a $444k fine? $888k? How about $1.8 m?
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Heck, even most stubborn people will admit that as long as the government exists, and taxes and revenue also exists, there must be some kind of Revenue Service, something Internal to the government that exists to make the tax system function (in theory)
SO people do support those laws, far beyond their occasional grouching when one or more of them has some kind of effect on them personally.
Other laws, like the prohibition of alcohol, are so disrespected and disliked by people they get the laws overturned.
Still others, like the prohibition of some narcotics, are more or less ignored by vast swathes of otherwise law-abiding citizens and even ignored by some law enforcement organizations.
the point stands.
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If you had a brain of any kind, you'd realize that if they laws don't solve the problem, then you haven't properly assessed the problem and taken care of the reasons that people are compelled to such things. In other words, if laws don't stop the behavior, then you're doing it wrong.
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You say to your kids not share copyrighted works using your wifi...
How do you ensure this? Your avatar here on this site is itself copyrighted! How do you ensure your kids don't share anything? (Oh wait a minute...that's how you do it. The ONLY way to ensure your kids don't share copyrighted works is to ensure they don't share ANYTHING at all!)
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Just to let you know...I fucking hate you. I hate you, I despise you, I absolutely loathe you and wish you would just drop dead this instant.
Here's why.
You are using rape in your argument callously.
Two of my sisters were raped. As kids.
So when I see that someone just casually uses rape and paedophilia as part of their bullshit argument, (because rape and paedophilia have absolutely no connection with copyright laws) then my blood boils.
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I'll have to disagree with you here, at least in regards to alcohol. I don't drink myself, I think its immoral to drink a substance that will impair your ability to make rational decisions.
AND because I don't want to wake up the next morning with a headache and memory loss.
I have both a moral reason and a practical reason here.
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No. You don't.
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FTFY joey
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That would be err on the side of caution. Just so you know.
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Of course you won't find it neatly filed away under "Copyright" as both the name of the law/concept are a relatively new innovation with a new stated goal.
Among other things some Roman emperors forbade unauthorized images of them be made and sold. Each one that tried that failed and the market flooded with busts and other goodies portraying the Emperor's likeness flooded the empire. Given that manufacture or these things often brought the death penalty with them and not a fine that may seem surprising but all the emperor did was to create a market for these things where none existed before. Remember, too, that almost the only way of avoiding one of several horrific deaths the Romans kept on hand for executions, was to be a Roman citizen then you'd have the relative mercy of being beheaded instead of all the other agonizing alternatives the Roman's kept on hand.
Remember, too, that the Emperor was a God and worshiped as one in Rome so he'd expect his orders to be instantly followed whether he was sane or not.
That you can't read or research history doesn't surprise me nor does not being able to find what Mike could quite easily.
Other places enforcement didn't act as a deterrent are easily found too. Poaching by hungry peasants on the local baron's hunting preserve was never stopped by enforcement. Ever. Thus far the criminalization of marijuana complete with deterrence hasn't had much in the way of deterrence value and far more to do with taking up and creating an artificial demand for more prison cells. Oh, and increasingly violent activity by suppliers of an otherwise mostly harmless substance is criminal but not, for the most part, the use of the drug itself. It has far better uses as a medicinal agent. So much for the automatic increase in enforcement married to a decrease in whatever activity supposedly it's designed to deter just isn't there. Actually the best case against your view about that is the rise of Christianity given that it flourished and spread widely, even as Christians were being killed off at an increasing rate while adherents to the religion increased.
I'm not staying up all night to prove you're no historian or even a candidate for becoming one. It just isn't necessary. There's no need for Mike to "believe" that the historical evidence he has is anything but fact. It's historical fact.
And you are a moron.
I just hope that you'll make a better lawyer than your research skills indicate here because you're simply hopeless at researching history except to enter into your own style of "confirmation bias". Then again, lawyers have to do research as well so I guess you'd be well off my list should I need a solicitor one day.
You are right on one score. There is no infallibility here. Increased enforcement can work for a short time period...short, before the activity being deterred returns to a normal level or even slightly higher. There may fallibility there but the mass of the evidence agrees with Mike.
As for being a piece of work, have a good long look in the mirror. You'll see one there while you shave. If you shave.
Please try not to trip over your ego on steroids on the way out the door and fall flat on your face into your ignorance.
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No - actaully it is still you that is confused. There may be many potential reasons for an action - but only one can actually be active in any given situation.
Of course you might argue that a number of weaker reasons might add up to provoke an action that wouldn't have happened otherwise. However in that case they cannot be properly called reasons since they would not be sufficient on their own.
Hence if you say "I don't pirate because it is morally wrong AND because I'm scared of being caught then there are only three possibilities:
1) the moral reason is the real reason - the threat is irrelevant;
2) the threat is the real reason the morality is irrelevant;
3) neither reason is sufficient on its own.
To get back to the original point. You can't claim that you don't pirate for moral reasons and at the same time claim yourself as an example of the effectiveness of deterrence.
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Right, they're swapping in school via flash drives/cell phones.
But please, cite your proof positive that absolutely positively every single time no other possibility on earth enforcement doesn't act as a deterrent.
Overreaching again, are we? He spoke about an deterrent to copyright infringement and given the constant whinings of your **AA buddies no law so far has managed to stop piracy.
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Then they stopped taking chances and letting artists grow and instead put all their eggs in the baskets they thought would be the next cash cow. That ended up homogenizing the product so much that it turned a huge portion of the market off.
The list goes on but it's late and I don't feel like researching the ones I can't get right without a little outside help, among those are laws, ya laws, passed that effectively started killing off the record store.
Things are never as simple as piracy done it. It usually entails shooting yourself in the face to try and save your foot or some such nonsense. As I said it's late.
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Are you sure?
Surely as a lawyer, you know that feelings don't belong in law (except in cases of crimes of passion, like manslaughter, but we're not talking about them).
As a lawyer, wouldn't you want to make sure? Especially about Youtube? You have a good faith assumption that it has the rights? Okay...then what about whenever its sued? Viacom sued because Youtube supposedly knew (somehow) that certain videos weren't authorized.
Is the average Youtube viewer supposed to do a background check on the video and uploader before they watch?
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There are reasonable steps you can take. Do you take them?
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It takes a bigger son of a bitch not to consider the argument, and instead to get caught up in details of the acts.
Pay attention to the guys argument, it's actually pretty compelling. Too bad you and your friends "report-censored" him again.
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That must be such a liberating feeling.
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Get off the net.
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One day I put in a blank VHS tape and recorded music from the satellite music channels (The ones that just play music and hardly have any commercials.) so I could listen to them later.
Hey! RIAA! I WAS ILLEGALLY COPYING MUSIC! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?!
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Speeding puts people at risk in cities, not as much on the open highway.
Parking Tickets, yeah, I agree with you on that one, unless the person is parking in front of a fire hydrant, then it's a safety issue.
IRS - What? Are you Mitt Romney or something?
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Prohibition didn't stop alcohol.
War on Drugs hasn't stopped the usage of Marijuana and other drugs.
So...
Guess what?
You're....
*Deep breath*
Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong! You're wrong! You're wrong! You're wroooooooooonnnnnnnggggg!
Ah, Dr. Cox, your song is never bad.
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So true. That's what "freetard" is about. If they could some would wan to make free illegal as it is lost revenue to someone. Those people have no higher values than making money for themselves, any other consideration such as freedom of expression can only be a perversion from "freeloaders"
Personally I can see a clear growth trend towards free distribution. Damn good stuff too.
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And you surely know they own the rights to all the content displayed there, right? Because none of those "content providers" ever provided any copyright infringing content, right? They can't be wrong, right? Viacom didn't sue Youtube over videos it uploaded itself, right?
You don't need to be a lawyer to have common sense. It's pretty comical to think otherwise.
Indeed. Since copyright has no common sense in it nowadays it's safe to assume you are clueless.
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And even those won't prevent you from infringing.
Aside the fact you are obnoxious, your world must be very boring and monochrome. I imagine you avoid making any kind of derivative work. Joking with a copyrighted work by using a few frames for fun? BLASPHEMY! Using the tune of an artist with self made funny lyrics? DAMN PIRATEY FREETARDS!
I pity your children. Except that they must be downloading stuff right under your nose or at least infringing without knowing. Ultimately, I pity you.
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/s
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"Too bad you and your friends 'report-censored' him again."
You are one despicable person to make such a fallacious accusation. How is collapsing the comment and highlighting it with bright text, that actually makes it stand out, censorship? Censorship would be if the comment ceased to exist or is rendered effectively impossible to access (like free speech zones). You're such an underhanded and dishonest person that you'll grasp at anything that you can twist to match your distorted point of view.
But what am I thinking? You people never actually participate in a civil debate. You just ignore the facts, dodge the question, and go straight to the ad hom attacks. You never actually address the argument with data-driven counter-arguments. You disregard that and attack the messenger in an impotent, but desperate, attempt to deflate the argument by discrediting the person making the argument. You do things like the prior comment where you insult the victims of violent crimes by using them as tools for your own petty agenda.
You disgust me.
All you do is scream "PIRATE MIKE... PIRATE MIKE" over and over hoping that will make everyone suddenly respect your viewpoint. No, you just sound like a butt-hurt little child throwing a temper tantrum. It's not even clever, it's just boring and annoying. You're like the TV ads that everyone puts on MUTE. I don't even know why I'm wasting my time replying to you; you'll just come back with some snide insult to put me "in my place".
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A bit hypocritical on his part, wouldn't you agree?
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Don't forget too that when digital music downloads came around, the music labels lost even more because people could choose the songs they wanted to download instead of being forced to spend 15 bucks on a CD.
On top of that, the labels began shooting themselves in the feet by cutting out the Artist Development and Promotions departments. One author commented on this saying, "This is when major record labels started depending on one-hit wonders and bubblegum pop to push profits ignoring their own rich history and tradition." (http://www.digiave.net/piracy-didnt-kill-the-music-business/)
This is also the reason why there's very few bands that have seen long term success like the classic rock stars.
These execs don't realize that people can see that. Their consumers can see they're only in it for the money, not to provide a service.
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Hopefully you haven't sang the "happy birthday" song in public. That would put a damper on your copyright crusade.
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Everything is always someone elses fault these days and is lucrative to say the least. You can rob a bank or shoot a couple hundred people these days but if your mommy beat you or your daddy accidentally bumped your weiner while changing your diaper so common sense has no part in today s society, only money and laws regardless how dumb.
So sueing someone for $9k for each song they got from bittorrent or whereever seems about on pace.
I just wish our judicial system put as much effort and bankrupting penalties towards the real problems in this world. People can steal your bank info, steal your identity and ruin your life, rape your kids and put pics of it online, but man that is to hard to figure out however but someone shared a dollar song shit we gotta pulverize them.
If anyone believes this is acceptable, that basically sueing someone 9 thousand times the worth of the infringed work then maybe this country really has an untapped market for shrinks!
How come they did not go after the people who downloaded the song off of this lady? Why should they the less defendants the less the probability of any effective defense. Classic case of bullying is all it was. There is no way that at best the fine should not of been anymore then 100 times the loss! at worst case she should of been fined $2400. Oh but the legal offense cost that for just one hour, tough shit cost of doing business! Same thing the average working man gets told when he gets screwed by the phone company, a hospital or whoever we get told it would cost more to sue then what we would get back, same to these pricks. They should be forced to play by the same rules as everyone else, but unfortunately in this world big money wins everytime, unfortunate side effect of letting financial contributions into the political/legal arena.
Maybe, just maybe someday we will wake up and see that the "little guys" out number the big guys and if it were not for the little guys there would be no where as many big guys because of noone buys the shit they are peddling well you get the rest. Everyone sees some of these foreign countries on the news you see the people going crazy in the street, protesting the bs their government is doing, maybe it is about time we follow suit.
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Has piracy stopped or declined significantly from the past decade of lawsuits?
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And you simply accepted their word without question. Doesn't that make you an incompetent judge?
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"I contacted Thomas-Rasset's lawyer, K.A.D. "Kiwi" Camara about today's appellate ruling restoring the judgment from Thomas-Rasset's first trial. Would Thomas-Rasset press on to the only legal avenue still open to her?
Camara says yes, claiming that the appellate court misapplied the law.
"Because even the reduced amount of damages that we won is punitive, the court of appeals erred by failing to apply the Supreme Court's punitive damages cases," he told me by e-mail. "We will seek certiorari from the Supreme Court to correct that error."
Interesting
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The fact that they want to ever expand laws & regulations in their favor trampling our freedom and acting as a prime vector to implementing all means necessary to censorship makes them bullies against the public, not victims.
You may disagree with either or both opinions, fine. It will serve your argument to not flat out misrepresent them as you "tend" to do.
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Nothing makes me more depressed than seeing gleeful torrent users thumbing their nose at copyright.
I sincerely hope that you seek help immediately!
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It came from the movie Dodgeball: A True Underdog Story.
It's the logo of the fictionalised gym, Average Joe's.
https://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&tok=H5Ca8v2tP3s2xwokmSPeEg&cp=12&gs_id=96&xhr =t&q=average+joe%27s+gym&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&biw=1064&bih=480&a mp;um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=HcVQUNuuOoOKhQfXu4DgDw
If that doesn't work, just do a Google Image search for "Average Joe's Gym"
You don't have permission to use it as your avatar. According to copyright law, you need permission to use it. You don't. Therefore, you should now be subject to fines up to and including $150,000.
Hypocrite (and monster, for falsely using rape earlier).
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The Last Word
“Re: It motivates me...
If the only thing stopping yourself from expressing yourself creatively is the terrifying thought that someone, somewhere out there may hear you without ponying up, then you are leading a sad, pathetic existence and our culture would be better off without your contribution.