Court Doesn't Buy DOJ's Argument For Why Megaupload User Can't Sue To Get His Data Back

from the another-failure dept

Thu, Oct 4th 2012 4:12pm — Mike Masnick

Just as the Justice Department is celebrating its "success" in the Megaupload case, a court was rejecting one of the DOJ's more ridiculous arguments in an offshoot case, involving Megaupload user Kyle Goodwin, who just wants his data back, but can't get it because the DOJ shot first and doesn't want to answer any questions later in court. The DOJ has been trying to deny Goodwin his day in court against them, attempting to say that Goodwin should sue Megaupload itself or the hosting company Carpathia, rather than the US government, who actually took down the site.

The court, however, isn't buying it, and has said that a full hearing will be held. This doesn't necessarily mean that Goodwin will win in the end, but it's definitely a step in the right direction -- and represents yet another failure to add to the long list of failures in the DOJ's supposed "success" story.

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Filed Under: access, censorship, data, doj, justice department, kyle goodwin
Companies: megaupload

61 Comments

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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 4:14pm

Doesn't*
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lolzzzzz, 4 Oct 2012 @ 4:15pm

ohhhh BUMMMMA
thats what hollywood was heard saying just as this was announced , when its found the data the govt took was destroyed at request of hollywood you can be betting more lawsuits will creep up....
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 4:44pm

Clearly this court is a pirate apologist haven and it's all New Zealand's fault, right average_joe?
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Below_Average_Joe, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:07pm

Re:
Duuhhhhh, gonna catch me a pi-rate, and I'm a-gonna put him in this pot. This pot right here. Yeah-yeah! Yeah-yeah! That's JUST what I'm gonna do!
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:19pm

Re: Re:
Your meds need adjusting.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:20pm

Alright enough is enough people need to stop acting like shutting down MU was a bad move. It was good I mean it has stopped piracy almost 100%

*Trollsmile* Oh wait no it hasn't... In fact it's done maybe .00001% damage to the pirate world if that. There has been a goddamn flood of new host in the absence of MU.

I mean seriously shutting down a file host is just about effective as making high security file protection.. There will always be some 12 year old kid who's just a little smarter that will tear your security down to nothing and post it within a day or so of release.

If you ask the person making a security for a product if they can bypass it they'll always say of course. Full proof does not exist and only a moron will think it does.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:27pm

and represents yet another failure to add to the long list of failures in the DOJ's supposed "success" story.

That a motion to dismiss isn't get granted and the judge agrees to hold a hearing represents a failure? I'd guess that motions to dismiss are granted way less than half the time. When there's a doubt, jurisprudence demands a full hearing. But when you have nothing but straws to grasp at, this looks like a huge get.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:32pm

Re:
I hope this guy gets his stuff back, but sorry Mini-Me, Dr. Evil is still headed to an all-expenses paid vacation to the Super Max in Florence, Colorado.
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Corby (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:34pm

Re: Re:
Mini-Me, Dr. Evil may still be heading to an all expenses paid vacation to the Super Max in Florence, Colorado but Kim Dotcom is not going to be a visitor as he won't be extradited.
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Corby (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:37pm

Re: Re:
The Meagupload case will fail before Kim Dotcom is brought to tril http://www.decryptedtech.com/editorials/someone-should-tell-the-mpaa-dont-poke-the-bear
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:44pm

Re: Re: Re:
no u
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:45pm

Re: Re: Re:
Unless I miss my guess, he's quoting from an old Warner Brother's cartoon. Bugs Bunny, in fact. Substitute "rabbit" for "pirate".

Of course, in that cartoon, the rabbit kicked the critter who was saying that's butt.
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Below_Average_Joe, 4 Oct 2012 @ 5:45pm

Re: Re: Re:
Side Effects May Include...nausea, vomiting, headaches, heartburn, hair loss, diarrhea, dry mouth, water retention, painful rectal itch, hallucination, dementia, psychosis, coma, death, halitosis, lung cancer, mental retardation, brain tumors, paralyzation, sleep loss, internal bleeding, internal combustion, a sudden craving to sniff your carpet, an addiction to cocaine, heroin, PCP, speed and Windex, bone weakening, claustrophobia, acne, playing Everquest II, regular PMS, making Jesus cry, the inability to use proper english in an online environment, homosexuality, AIDS, an urge to stab your spouse, inability to breathe oxygen, urge to watch the Chinese version of Friends, migraines, diabetes, deafness, and of course, the inability to speak properly.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 6:34pm

What kinda scumbag calls himself an annonimous coward?
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 6:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Hasenpfeffer!
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 6:51pm

Re:
What kinda scumbag calls himself an annonimous coward?

One that can't spell?
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Annonimous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 6:58pm

Re: Re:
One that can't spell?

I rezent that.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:02pm

Re: Re: Re:
No, it won't.

He's going to jail.
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Mike Masnick (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:05pm

Re:
Doesn't*

That too.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:13pm

Its kind of sad how obvious the Megaupload thing was planned in tandem with SOPA/PIPA.
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Greevar (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Based on what? New Zealand courts have all but sent Dotcom home with his property and company. They've already apologized to him for the grand overreach in due process and violation of several of his rights. He's about as likely to go to jail as Charles Manson is to get out.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:19pm

Re: Re: Re:
As they said the copyright cartel poked the bear. They aren't going to like what happens if they keep doing it.
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smooth, 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:35pm

5 in 1?
Megaupload offline = DOJ won

Now they're just trying to have it go away. They don't really care about the data, or Kim, they just wan to get out alive.
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Violated (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:39pm

Damage
Good luck to Kyle Goodwin and the EFF when they represent the hundreds of thousands of other people who have lost access to their own files due to the FBI and DoJ.

I can't see this one ending well for the FBI/DoJ when it is simply the case that they can't withhold innocent third party property. Taking out one corporation and harming a large part of general society should not be happening.

I think the Judge in this case can only make one ruling which is to reunite people with their files. It would then help to point out that those who cause damage get to pay for that damage even if it is the US Government.
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Corby (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Kim Dotcom will not be extradited and if is not extradited then there will be no court case and he won't be found guilty and sent to jail. All the ILLEGALITY with regards to illegal search warrant, illegal raid, illegal transfering of data from NZ to the US and now the illegal spying etc. will add weight to ensure that the extradition will be refused. The US DOJ can scream and shout, spit and spat all it wants to get Kim Dotcom extradited but it wont help them.
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Corby (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 7:55pm

Re: 5 in 1?
But Megaupload will not be going away when Megabox takes off in the next few weeks it will be another thorn in the side of Hollywood that they will so desperately want to remove which they will not be able too. All this publicity that Meguapload that is generating will no doubt ensure that Megabox becomes a success.
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Ninja (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 8:06pm

Where do I donate to help him get a freaking good defense and smack the DOJ back into their place?
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Digitari, 4 Oct 2012 @ 8:15pm

Re:
Careful there the NDAA is still in effect and that's "aiding the enemy of the state"
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Overcast (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 8:43pm

SO.... see what this says is:

YOU MUST be BIG MEDIA in order for your content to matter. See; megaupload gets taken out because of having 'copy-written data on their servers illegally'.

Ok fine; but what of the data there that was copy-written and/or the LEGITIMATE property of the uploader?

This is a clear message from the justice system:

If you are BIG MEDIA and someone is even possibly stealing your data, then you get your way - NO QUESTIONS until the court case; properly seized, taken down.

However; if you are a small developer, artist, or musician and was using megaupload to distribute your content as you see fit; then UP YOURS - you have to sue to get your content from the BIG BAD "JUSTICE" system.

So if you aren't big media; don't bother making content; the law won't protect it, it might actually seize it, but maybe... that's just again to protect BIG MEDIA from the small guy being competition, huh?
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 9:37pm

Re: Damage
"I can't see this one ending well for the FBI/DoJ when it is simply the case that they can't withhold innocent third party property."

Actually, I would love to see people actually trying to claim their property. It would be really funny to see who tries to collect pirated stuff.

I am also wondering how good a claim people have to "ownership" of the content. What is on Mega should never have been more than a backup at best, so the "owners" would likely have to show that they have an original copy to start with, or some other proof of ownership. I am not clear that they can show true ownership of anything.

There is also a very good argument that, in the data storage world, the stuff is but 1s and 0s, mixed in with other 1s and 0s. Without Mega's in house storage system, there is no simple way to separate the stuff out. It would require an incredibly high cost per user to try to extract the information, which may or may not be in one of many servers in one of many data centers, and may or may not be able to be proven to belong to any one user.

I think all the court said was that this needs a hearing, not just a direct dismissal. I don't think it's saying they don't believe the DOJ or some sort of slap down, just that there is enough here to be worth actually looking at.
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saulgoode (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 9:52pm

Q. Where do I donate?
A. http://supporters.eff.org/donate
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dennis, 4 Oct 2012 @ 9:57pm

Re:
"If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn�t. And contrariwise, what it is, it wouldn�t be. And what it wouldn�t be it would. You see?" Clear as
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techflaws (profile), 4 Oct 2012 @ 10:15pm

Re: Re: Damage
It would be really funny to see who tries to collect pirated stuff.

Not as funny as seeing you actually trying to proof that people only uploaded pirated stuff.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 10:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Damage
"Not as funny as seeing you actually trying to proof that people only uploaded pirated stuff."

I didn't say "only pirated stuff". Stop trying to push my argument into a bizarre absolute. That just sucks.

By your standard, I am assuming that absolutely nothing on Mega was pirated, so it's all good just to give it back, right?

Stop being a jackass.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 10:53pm

Re: Re: Re:
*Resent

If you're going to speak English, at least learn to spell correctly!
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Oct 2012 @ 10:58pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Damage
The majority of stuff on there was not 'pirated'. This has been shown in many studies not undertaken by the MPAA.

Megaupload also had tools for, and deals with, the major studios to take their stuff down and Megaupload was never even high on their priority list as a result.

Hopefully megabox is the final nail in the RIAA labels coffin.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Oct 2012 @ 1:48am

given the complete and utter fuck up that the DoJ has made over this whole case, will the name(s) of the person(s) actually responsible for the fiasco ever be released? will they ever be held accountable?. if not, what the hell is the point of having any sort of legal system anyhow?
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 2:28am

Re:
He is a former BSA lawyer.
Think a smaller cartel cashing in on copyright and making people miserable.
He had help and those names are easy to find, look where the cartels donated lobbying money.
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That One Guy (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 4:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
*Whooosh!*
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anon, 5 Oct 2012 @ 5:45am

New Zealand
Any legal entity around the world will be looking much more closely at what Hollywood is demanding and I think help will be limited from now on, especially if by the end of this case New Zealand has to compensate Kim Dotcom in the Billions, and Hollywood just walks away not accepting any responsibility for there actions.
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anona, 5 Oct 2012 @ 5:59am

Re: Re: Damage
The problem is that it is not the court or the people who have the responsibility to prove they have the copyright to the material they own, it is up to those claiming it is illegal to prove it, you know innocent until proven guilty.

If anything all that they can do to give this data back is to open mega again for a few days or weeks so that people can get there data back, I see this happening in the near future actually, and this will be a major failure for Hollywood as they will be the ones responsible for the cost.

This case could be the one Hollywood has been dreading, this could be the bear that you do not poke. This could be the last time New Zealand discusses any special actions on there side of the world for any claims by Hollywood.

In the future, I hope, Hollywood will have to take any case to court before any actions can be taken against a torrenting or file sharing site.

New Zealand and others are not going to accept Billion in losses just to support illegal actions on behalf of an entity that walks away at the first site of being held responsible.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Oct 2012 @ 6:16am

Re: Re:
Do you have the rights to be making those sorts of references? I hope you've licensed those Austin Powers (c) characters. Otherwise, you'd be a pirate.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Oct 2012 @ 7:15am

I'd just like to point out that this was a complete success if you consider that all the DOJ was after was the shutdown of the site.
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David (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 9:29am

Who else?
Who else can this guy sue to get his data back. He has to go after the folks who have it. Otherwise the results are nil...
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 9:53am

Re:
I'd just like to point out that this was a complete success if you consider that all the DOJ was after was the shutdown of the site.
Yes, and I'd just like to point out that the Iraqui invasion of Kuwait was a complete success if all they were after was to set fire to a bunch of oil wells.
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Tunnen (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 9:56am

Every time I see people talk about this case and how users want their files, I can't help but think what would of happened if this was a Bank instead.

Imagine you have a Bank, that a lot of people had accounts in. The President of the bank is accused of fraud by the government, so the DOJ/FBI come in and take over the Bank. They freeze all accounts, lock up the building and say that no one is allowed in. You now have a landlord (Carpathia) that wants to be paid his rent or to be allowed to rent the building out to someone else or even just to have someone pay the utilities bill, but the justice system won't let them. You have the users that want access to their money but are told they can't because they might possibly have some money they obtained illegally mixed in. Somehow, I think the situation would have been handled a lot differently.
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average_joe (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 10:11am

Re:
That a motion to dismiss isn't get granted and the judge agrees to hold a hearing represents a failure? I'd guess that motions to dismiss are granted way less than half the time. When there's a doubt, jurisprudence demands a full hearing. But when you have nothing but straws to grasp at, this looks like a huge get.

Yeah, how desperate does someone have to be that they're claiming a victory because there's going to be an evidentiary hearing on a collateral issue. Here's what they're all excited about: http://ia600206.us.archive.org/8/items/gov.uscourts.vaed.275314/gov.uscourts.vaed.275314.126.0.pdf

I hope he gets his files back too, but I'm not sure I understand how the government has even seized them.
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Scott, 5 Oct 2012 @ 10:35am

IMO
I think the US government is purposely fucking themselves so if they lose the MAFIAA would leave them alone.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Oct 2012 @ 1:58pm

Re: Re:
>I'm not sure I understand how the government has even seized them.

Going by how you constantly overlook how many times enforcement has fucked this case up we're pretty sure you don't understand anything about how the government has done this...
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average_joe (profile), 5 Oct 2012 @ 2:54pm

Re: Re: Re:
Going by how you constantly overlook how many times enforcement has fucked this case up we're pretty sure you don't understand anything about how the government has done this...

Rather than just being an angry asshole, why don't you say something productive? Can you explain how the government has seized his property when the government doesn't possess or control the servers the data is on?
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Oct 2012 @ 7:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, considering he wasn't specifically discussing the seized property but pointing out how YET AGAIN you refuse to even acknowledge all the fuck ups that have happened on the part of BOTH governments in the case, it's irrelevant.

Also, it appears he isn't being an angry asshole. He's just pointing out how YOU seem to ignore all the mistakes made in the case, almost like you're being a government apologist and doing so just to keep coming to this site and writing things like "sounds like Mike's just being a piracy apologists and just wants to make the government look bad".

It's pointless explaining things to someone like you. You'll ignore them just to harp on about something that isn't being discussed.

Don't you get tired of your holier than thou attitude? Or do you not realize that the angriest asshole of all on this site is usually you? I'm going to make it a point, from this day forward to take note of and save every single comment of yours that has an ad hom in it or is completely off topic, as well as ignores mistakes made by the government in favor of something like I "quoted" above. Then I'll come back and post all that up, so we can show the class who the angry asshole who refuses to acknowledge government mistakes is.

And please Joe, getting riled up about someone not saying something productive. 400+ comments in some of the Funniest/Most Insightful articles, half of which are YOURS and just repeats of "WHY WON'T YOU DEBATE ME?!?! RAWR!" Yeah, way to add something productive to the conversation. /s
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average_joe (profile), 6 Oct 2012 @ 9:16am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What fuck ups have I ever denied? All I said was that I don't think the prosecution is nearly as far off track as some are spinning it. Is the Megaupload website down? Yep. Is Dotcom being extradited? Yes. There's obviously been some collateral fuck ups, but the critics aren't explaining how the ultimate trial has been compromised. It's just anti-IP enforcement FUD from anti-copyright zealots who get super-excited when there's anything critical of the prosecution that they can use to discredit the whole thing. Only a pirate apologist would right article after article about anything that can be spun in Dotcom's favor. This is some of the most blatant apologism on the internet, hands down. Good God, all that happened here is the judge decided to hold an evidentiary hearing. Certain zealots are calling that a defeat for the DOJ. Give me a break.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Oct 2012 @ 11:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Hey, calm down there AJ. You might blow a gasket there, what with your angry and obviously emotional response.

Also, I don't think you know what "apologism" means. I'll give you a hint. It doesn't mean going, "Sheesh. Another mistake on the part of the government."

Pointing out errors in due process and mishandling of evidence, as well as rather ridiculous and overzealous swat tactics is NOT apologism. It's pointing out facts.

That you don't like it DOES NOT make it apologism. Nor does it make it so things are being spun in Dotcom's favor.

Seriously. Calm down. I know it's hard admitting you're wrong, or that you very much have some kind of bias with people pointing out government fuck-ups, but sheesh. Just say, "You know what? I agree, the government(s) have made some serious errors in the case. As a future lawyer, I only hope that the same standards they attempt to hold others to they be held to themselves. If not more so, seeing as how they are the ones who dole out justice." It's not that hard to say.

But then again, this is you. You couldn't even make it a day without picking on Mike, despite saying you'd leave him alone. Although, in your defense, you weren't specific as to what constitutes leave him alone. Leave it to a lawyer to make sure he leaves himself enough wiggle room with his words to turn "leave him alone" to mean I will continue to insult you day after day, article after article. I just won't direct it at you, Mike.

Stay classy, AJ. And seriously, chill out. That vein in your forehead is throbbing obscenely. I could almost here your voice rising as I read what you wrote. You should definitely reign that emotional outburst in. Wouldn't want people to call you a hypocrite now, would we?

"Rather than just being an angry asshole, why don't you say something productive?"

;)
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Oct 2012 @ 11:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What fuck ups have you denied? Every time the topic of the Megaupload case gets brought you gloat about how Dotcom is going to jail - completely sidestepping all the procedural issues that are in the case. Every time you get asked about that you scream, "But but but fat boy is going to jail!"

Once, and only once, did you mention that "Oh, right, they failed to do things according to procedure, and because they uphold the law, that's pretty bad."

Yeah, your point isn't to talk about following procedure. You're just happy that the DOJ is willing to steamroll all procedure just to get their mitts on fat boy. It's not a loss for the DOJ, but you're delusional if you think it makes them look better. Based on the wrong warrant the case has already been pushed back, and with charges of illegal wiretapping under the orders of the FBI, publicly admitted by New Zealand, don't expect this to go down quietly.

"Angry asshole", haha, don't make me laugh. Pointing out your wilful stupidity is not being angry. If anyone's angry, it's you. You're mad because all the illegal procedures are being brought to light and your position of "But but but the LAW!" is looking pretty damn bad. But don't worry - I'm sure hurricane head will pop along at some point and venture to let you join the business of selling spit as Lowery's shoeshine.
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average_joe (profile), 6 Oct 2012 @ 12:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Again, you haven't pointed out any fuck ups that I'm denying exist, nor are you pointing out any way in which Dotcom's prosecution has been compromised. I'm as cool as a cucumber, angry-man AC.
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average_joe (profile), 6 Oct 2012 @ 12:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I haven't denied the existence of a single mistake. There have been many. I've seen any though that compromise the prosecution in the U.S. Sorry, but Dotcom's prosecution is doing just fine. Harping on collateral issues doesn't make the main show go away.
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Anonymous Coward, 7 Oct 2012 @ 5:13pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Damage
"Megaupload also had tools for, and deals with, the major studios to take their stuff down and Megaupload was never even high on their priority list as a result."

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

oh god, you made me laugh so hard, I almost passed out.

Mega was one of the best places to put your pirated files and get paid when people download them. Thousands of affiliates were working like busy beavers putting up everything they could, and then posting links in every pirate forum and chat board trying to drive people to click so they could get paid.

The system was so effecient that Dotcom himself was using it to launder money. It's amazing that you would ignore it!
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Anonymous Coward, 8 Oct 2012 @ 9:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Damage
If it was one of the best places, then why hadn't the industry enforcers used their own statistics which stated that Filesonic was far better and far more popular?
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Hephaestus (profile), 8 Oct 2012 @ 5:27pm

Re: Re:
Bugs Bunny?
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Hephaestus (profile), 8 Oct 2012 @ 5:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I have a question ... Is your true name Eric Holder?
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Anonymous Coward, 9 Oct 2012 @ 8:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
you're not a lawyer, are you? two points: the evidentiary hearing will be held very much against the express wishes of the DoJ, which fieled several motions against such a move. Hence, this is a defeat for the DoJ, no two ways about it.

secondly, that pesky little principle of due process is not just an optional extra. It is actually a legal principle, and multiple violations of due process by the prosecution may lead to a case being thrown out - this is a principle which applies both in the US and in NZ. In the US in particular, tainted evidence (evidence acquired by illegal means) is simply not permissible in court (look up 'fruit of the poioned tree'). More and more details emerge about the illegality of search warrants and the wiretapping of KDC's internet connection. So even if the DoJ actually has evidence to sustain a prima facie case (we still do not know even that much - the indicment certainly isn't and the DoJ has stonewalled several NZ court orders asking for the evidence), that evidence may no longer be permissible in and American court in particular. So to claim that the curent "mistakes" (of which there is quite a pattern by now) have no effect on the US case shows either wishful thinking or blissful ignorance of how the legal process actully works.
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