The French Pigeons Are Revolting -- And That's Good
from the more,-please dept
One of the reasons the copyright lobby has been able to get so far with Net-hostile legislation like SOPA/PIPA and treaties like ACTA and TPP is that the companies affected adversely -- both big Internet players and smaller startups -- have failed to make their voice heard effectively. That's finally starting to change, as Google ramps up its lobbying efforts, and Net entrepreneurs start to get organised.
But in Europe, things still have a long way to go in terms of providing a digital perspective on legislation and treaties that can counterbalance the powerful lobbying machine of the old media industry there. That's what makes the following story about a revolt by French startups against a proposed tax rise, reported here by David Meyer on GigaOM, rather remarkable:
Arguing that there would be little point in being an entrepreneur in France anymore -- particularly with the UK offering a much better deal just across the Channel -- the startups organized themselves into a largely online movement called 'Les Pigeons', or 'the suckers'.
Now, admittedly this was a fight over money, rather than policy or anything more noble, but the point remains that for the first time, French entrepreneurs came together to make the government change its mind, and succeeded. If nothing else, that creates a precedent for them to do the same in the future when they might wish to persuade ministers not to bring in particularly harmful legislation, or support damaging treaties. As Meyer comments:
They were set for a street protest this weekend, but yesterday they met with finance minister Pierre Moscovici…and won.It's quite refreshing to see European startups flexing their political muscle. Now if those in Germany can just do the same in their own fights against counterproductive freelancer taxes and crazy ancillary copyright proposals, we can call this a trend.
Here's hoping.
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You know the internet is more an agent of commerce than anything else at this point, right? I would imagine you look at the traffic figures once in a while.
Once the internet became a tool of commerce it was only a matter of time before it became regulated.
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Nobody's saying that the internet shouldn't be regulated in any way. What's said is that the regulations proposed by the likes of SOPA are harmful to both commerce and free speech, have disastrous unintended consequences, push the agendas of a handful of corporations at the expense of smaller innovative players, will do little to stop the problem they're supposedly designed to stop and that the problem itself is better first addressed with business rather than legal or regulatory measures.
Sadly, that's too complicated for some people to grasp.
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And that is why it is actually you that uses strawmen on a daily basis.
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The one who uses strawmen on a daily basis is you and those like you who attack Paul on a daily basis.
There's a difference between opposing legislation that addresses piracy and opposing bad legislation that does nothing meaningful to address piracy. Although I doubt the difference is one you're feeble mind would notice. Your the "with us or against us" type. Which is sad.
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Legislation will never "address piracy". Why wouldn't you oppose legislation that won't do what it's supposed to do?
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They want all the social benefits, they want all the government handouts, support, backing, retirement money, social medicine, and all the rest that comes with it...
but they don't want to pay for it.
In extreme cases, you end up with Greece, where the government has provided some of the best social programs around and the most generous support for it's people, and has the highest levels of tax avoidance you can imagine.
France has hyper high unemployment, a huge problem with non-integrated immigrant populations, and no way to back away from social programs that are strangling the economy. These guys don't want to pay, but you can be sure they will visit their government provided doctor when the get teargas in their eyes.
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Even Britain - which was less affected than mainland europe - suffered the equivalent of the 9/11 attacks every day for two months. When you consider how the US reacted to just one such event (in a much larger country) you might begin to appreciate the effect it has.
The lesson that europe learnt then was that a nation has to pool resources to look after those who are in trouble - because tomorrow it might be you.
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Some Americans are happy to spend several times more than every other country on the military but refuse to ensure that their own citizens have basic access to healthcare. It boggles my mind, but thankfully my own health isn't beholden to their interests.
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Charity ceases to be charity when you have a gun pointed at you.
Scale...
Would you say that the Amish in the US have a fairly stable system of community? I think they do. The entire community helps when there is a need. If you need a barn raised, everyone pitches in. If someone is sick, they are cared for.
It is a sound and successful society. Now try doing that on a national or global scale. Can't be done. The numbers don't work.
This is the same when trying to compare any EU country to the US. The population and even the geography make any comparison like apples to oranges.
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I have this mental image of Hitler or some other dictator type saying "YOU... WILL... HAVE... EMPATHY!".
Empathy by force is not empathy at all. Having your level of empathy set by your income levels and by government law doesn't seem like empathy at all. It's almost more of a slavery to support those who cannot (or worse will not) do for themselves.
"Some Americans are happy to spend several times more than every other country on the military but refuse to ensure that their own citizens have basic access to healthcare."
Some americans dress up in women's clothes and appear on Ru Paul's drag race. I don't use them as a general measurement of people's sentiments, however large your broad brushing may be.
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Except that I am one (god save the Queen!).
Another failure, angry man? ;)
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but they don't want to pay for it.
Wanting the advantages without the downsides is common to humanity - not just a peculiarity of "socialism". The problem afflicts rightwing regimes just as much - although in different ways.
Actually "social" medicine - as you put it - is rather more efficient than the alternatives - UK healthcare consumes only half the proportion of national income that US healthcare does - and provides better outcomes for the bulk of the population.
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Social medicine also doesn't work when too few people are paying the bills. Just like the old "RtB" stuff that Mike spouts here, get a very few people to may for the majority of people to get something for free causes problems. Those who are paying get upset because they are paying, and start to come up with ways to avoid paying.
What happened in Greece (and to a lesser extend in many Countries) is that that enough people figured out how to avoid paying tax, so the tax rates were increased to make up for the shortfall, which in turn encourages more people to avoid paying tax, and so on.
In the UK, example, you can see corporate tax rates around 25% and personal rates upwards to 60%. That's insane. Avoidance is pretty much a given.
The great results are nice, but if you cannot afford them, it is meaningless.
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If you want to talk about insane, that's a good starting point.
"Just like the old "RtB" stuff that Mike spouts here, get a very few people to may for the majority of people to get something for free causes problems."
It's lucky that every employed person pays up in most countries then, isn't it? Your information on healthcare in other countries seems just as accurate as your assumptions in other debates - half-truths, assumptions and corporate boot licking to the last.
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"It's lucky that every employed person pays up in most countries then, isn't it? "
Remarkably false. In most countries with exemption levels often set above the minimum wage, in most countries many don't pay at all - or even are net collectors of government money.
As an example, they are in process of raising the minimum "no tax" amount in the UK to almost 10,000 pounds a year. It's not a ton of money, but a significant part of the population avoids paying tax as a result.
Remember too that you have citizens under 18 not paying tax, a large percentage of the retired not paying tax and collecting government mandated pensions, and the like. Look at the US, where Romney made the 47% famous. It's a real issue.
So when more of the citizens are net collectors of government services, and a few are net payers, the net payers work hard NOT to be net payers. In the US, it's offshore accounts, in many European countries it's outright tax avoidance and a cash only black economy.
"Your country pays out more tax money per capita than any other country on healthcare, yet fails to ensure that its citizens have access to even basic coverage."
You don't know what "my country" is. Sad. I am not in the US. That said, you clearly didn't read my previous post. The issue for the US is legal / liability / insurance, which drives up the prices. It doesn't hurt either that the US is the rich market, often paying the freight for poorer countries to get medication at lower prices.
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Why do idiots point out that people on min wage do not pay tax when they cannot afford to do so but conveniently forget that those who can afford to pay their fair share do not?
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What happened to everyone doing their 'fair share'? Why should I have to give up half of my salary and others who are working pay nothing? It seems that just because I have more than you of a particular thing, it shouldn't mean you won't have to tow your share of the load. A flat tax would solve all issues. everyone pays the same percentage. No loopholes or exceptions. now THAT sounds fair.
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And don't give me that out of touch Tory bollocks response of "people should look for better jobs" because there will never be enough 'better' jobs for everyone on min wage which means that most people will always get left behind.
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I was raised so poor I had to work as a teenager just to put food on the table for my family because my mother and father's wages paid for the apartment and utilities. Don't cry to me about trying to live on minimum wage. Been there and done that.
What ever happened to step up and do your part?
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Which is of course impossible - that is why the expression exists.
Seems to me that you are in denial of the fact that the progress you have made is not entirely down to you - you depend on others.
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I have options because I refuse to let others decide my fate, either economically or socially.
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Most people claiming welfare are low earners who need a bit of help putting food on the table and paying extortionate rent, or those with genuine disabilities who are unable to work. The Daily Mail and other right wing publications would have you believe that anyone claiming benefits is a sponger.
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In truth I give to charity because I CHOOSE to, not because i am required to.
If you gave me support because I said I was in a bad way, would you want to know that your charity is going to a deserving person or cause? Or do you give every beggar on the street money? When I pay my taxes, where does it go? Is it really being put to good use? I have no idea because there is no accountability. Let me choose who and how to help those in need.
I also have a mentally handicapped brother that I care for. So that argument is out the window as well.
Before you go assuming anything else, please consider how much you know about who you are talking to. I am not opposed to charity. I provide it on a daily basis.
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It sounds fair to the wealthy - but it isn't. "From each according to their ability - to each according to their need" is fair. Plus of course everyone forgets that in most countries a substantial proportion of tax revenue comes from indirect taxes (sales taxes, VAT, fuel duties etc) - that are effectively flat. In fact the poor often pay more of these because they are more likely to smoke or to drink cheap alcohol - where the proportion of duty is higher.
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10% of $10k is $1K. Live life within your means. If you make minimum wage, live like it.
There are people currently on welfare who have more cash and benefits than those making $10/hr. They have free food, paid daycare, health benefits, transportation, internet access, cell phones, scholarships and grants for college, the list goes on. And all of this without contributing $.01 to the pool. They can't get off of welfare because they would have to give up all of those benefits.
It's no different than a drug dealer giving out free samples on the corner. The trick is to get them hooked and then you have 'em.
If you say we should have those benefits for all, then how do you propose to pay for it? Ask Greece how that's working out for them.
Rail against the rich all you like, but understand it's just jealousy disguised as outrage. If you had the money, you would hold onto it like it was your offspring. Money isn't the root of all evil, envy is. They have something you want so you make laws to steal it.
To paraphrase a famous messiah... There will always be poor, you can help them whenever you choose, you will not always have me. Consider what you have and give thanks.
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If this is true it just demonstrates the evils of means testing - something I have always opposed. Everyone should get the benefits - then the money should be recovered from those that don't need them (such as myself) through taxation.
Of course in might also not be true - in which case I would say that - envy is bad - but envying those who actually have LESS than you do - well that is the worst form.
If you say we should have those benefits for all, then how do you propose to pay for it? Ask Greece how that's working out for them.
Greece's problems are caused by rich people dodging taxes and by the government choosing to break its promises to ordinary folk ahead of breaking their promises to international financiers - who caused the problem in the first place.
To paraphrase a famous messiah... There will always be poor, you can help them whenever you choose, you will not always have me. Consider what you have and give thanks.
That did not justify selfishness - it just says that giving to glorify God is also worthwhile.
He also said some other stuff like "sell all that you have and give to the poor".
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I think the issue is that the comment was misleading at best.
In case you were unaware, this 47 number includes:
- people who paid payroll taxes making use of write-offs and credits afforded them via congressional approval which resulted in reimbursement of their Federal income tax, not FICA or Medicaid. (Something that Romney said you would be stupid to not take advantage of)
- active military personnel
- retired people
The 47 number does not consist 100% of net collectors of government subsidy. That number is much less, I think I saw it estimated at 18. But why bother with details when one can simply toss around bogus numbers attempting to drum up votes.
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He might stand a better chance of convincing almost half the population if he were to provide details about his plan. So far, what has been alluded to does not survive scrutiny by either "side of the aisle".
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Nobody suggests that the 47% are getting government handouts, only that they are NOT contributing to pay for any of it either. They are at very best net break even, and more the most part, net negatives.
The effects are the same, 53% of the people paying for 100% of the tab.
Imagine the screaming if you went out to dinner with friends, and every other person was charged double, and the rest went home for free?
Imagine if you were in a bar, and they charged you double for your drinks because you are well dressed, and gave the bummy looking people free drinks?
The point is there: When too many people are either getting a free lunch or just not paying for lunch, the declining numbers that are paying get upset. They get overtaxed, and that is an issue.
Just today, Coca Cola Hellenic of Greece announced they are effectively leaving Greece as a company, to list their shares outside. They join many other major companies moving their head offices out of Greece to avoid insane tax burdens that would be placed on them to try to save that sinking ship.
Reality is there, you just have to look for it.
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Interesting, because everyone gets government handouts.
"The effects are the same, 53% of the people paying for 100% of the tab."
This is simply not true. To reiterate ... the 47 number includes those who have paid their payroll taxes (Fed, FICA, Medicare) and diligently completed their 1040 in accordance with IRS regulations authorized by Congress - resulting in complete reimbursement of the Fed portion of those payroll taxes. Note, the FICA and Medicare portions of the payroll taxes were not reimbursed. The fact that Romney has stated a person should take full advantage of these writeoffs and credits further discredits your claim.
Fact is, the majority of those within this 47% number have indeed contributed to society to claim otherwise is rather brazen and to claim they are "takers" makes the accusation even worse. Maybe you would like to tell our overseas military personnel that they are not contributing enough. Possibly you would like to tell corporations which receive subsidies while paying no tax about their civic duty. I understand there are many millionaires who are within the 47%, you concerned about their contributions?
If you have an issue with the way Congress writes the tax law then you should take that up with them, but to wag your finger at those who fill out their forms in accordance with the law is simply stupid.
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The US spends roughly 10 times as much as Mexico on Health Care...
And on average, people in the US only live about 3 years more than people in Mexico.
The US pays more than double what European countries pay for Health Insurance, and they ALL beat the US out in terms of life expectancy.
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If you have a very few people who are wealthy enough to pay the bills for the majority then you need to ask where they got their money from in the first place - odd are they didn't get it directly from the sweat of their own brows!
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Why don't the tech industries complain more?
They see the old, bloated, media industries sitting around being paid for doing almost nothing and they think " I'd like a bit of that, better not to rock the boat too much because in a few years time I could be in their shoes - and they look rather comfortable."
It's the same reason why mistreatment of younger boys by their elders continued for so long in British public schools. The younger boys didn't complain because they knew that in time it would be their turn.
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Re: Why don't the tech industries complain more?
In EU it is almost entirely damage control at the moment. The cookie-directive is making 80+% of the danish ministries sites illegal 8 months after the law came into force and the number is likely to be higher for most others with less intimate knowledge of it...
Apart from that, IPRED and its ilk is still pushing laws in a bad direction and some of the cybersecurity-laws are complete insanity and far worse than what the USA faces!
I thank France for HADOPI since it has become a standard for how things are not supposed to work. Its price, its level of intrusion on people and its lack of complete compliance with EU law and international treaties are very hard to justify even if it removed 100 % of the illegal traffic in France!
It has basically made 3 strikes laws far more toxic than it was before and it has made politicians aware of how the level of intrusion given to law enforcement is
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Mike, there's more to this story
First, they are protesting against some tax increases. In France, there are two closes-but-different statuses. You have the micro-entrepreneur (some kind of start-up), and the self-entrepreneur. Micro-entrepreneurs are getting ridiculously low tax rates, and that causes many problems, especially with micro-entrepreneurs who can't compete. Also, companies even tend to, instead of directly hiring someone, ask him to set up an self-entrepreneur scheme, and abuses are frequent. Plus some other problems. So the goal was to bring tax rates for self-entrepreneurs closer to the rates for micro-entrepreneurs.
The second part of the project was to raise taxes for ultra short-term hit&runners who just want to make loads of money by setting up a company and selling it asap for money. The rate was raised, but with many exemptions, especially if :
- You earn no benefits.
- You don't sell your company right after founding it, the tax rate on the sale decreases quickly for each year you keep it and manage it, to reach some very low point quite fast.
- You reinvest the benefits into other small companies.
So basically, the only one hurt would have been the ultra-short-term oriented hit&run speculators.
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Obligitory
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
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Off Topic
How about the USA's own "counterproductive freelancer taxes"? The marginal rate I pay on every nickel I make on the side is close to 50%.
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It would be nice if this were the case for all those calling themselves places of worship. I'm sure many do provide for the less fortunate but there are those who line their pockets and build monuments to themselves - and that is abhorrent. Churches alone can not be relied upon to provide for all the less fortunate, there are many charities and yet their combined efforts still fall short.
Government workers making more than private sector? Obviously you are not talking about the wall street banksters or the CEOs sitting on each others boards giving each other raises and bonuses.
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