Court Says Police Can Install Cameras On Your Property Without Warrant If Your Property Is A 'Field'
from the because-that-won't-be-abused dept
We just heard some good news about the protection of the 4th Amendment with regards to cell phone data. However, we've also learned that some law enforcement officials apparently find getting warrants to read our email to be incredibly annoying. These LEOs shouldn't fret too much as they now have some good news of their own -- they apparently don't need a warrant to turn your property into a movie set if your property resembles an open field.That's the ruling from Green Bay, Wisconsin, where the fight against the world's mildest drug (marijuana) is apparently worth twisting the 4th Amendment into a giant pretzel.
U.S. District Judge William Griesbach ruled that it was reasonable for Drug Enforcement Administration agents to enter rural property without permission -- and without a warrant -- to install multiple "covert digital surveillance cameras" in hopes of uncovering evidence that 30 to 40 marijuana plants were being grown.This is in response to the two defendants in the case seeking to have footage from said surveillance cameras thrown out in their court case on unreasonable search and seizure grounds. Judge Griesbach made this ruling on the recommendation of US Magistrate William Callahan, who based his position on a US Supreme Court Case ruling that open fields were not covered under the 4th Amendment and didn't require a warrant. Perhaps ironically, this ruling was made in 1984, a time when the prevalence and sophistication of such surveillance equipment wasn't what it is today.
Still, I'm struck by two problems in this ruling (and the previous Supreme Court ruling as well). First, the two defendants in this case had fences and signs up around their property that said "No Trespassing", so I'm not sure if the definition of "open field" fully applies here. Secondly, even if you argued that it did apply, how is this exception to the 4th Amendment not completely throwing the door wide open for abuse? What, after all, constitutes an "open field"? Is there a certain acreage criteria that needs to be met? A certain number of trees or shrubberies? Rabbit hole count?
And this doorway to abuse has been opened all because police didn't want to bother to get a search warrant to put video equipment on private property.
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Filed Under: 4th amendment, privacy, surveillance
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Bye bye rights
That is its intended purpose. You have no more right to privacy.
Thanks 9/11.
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Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_fields_doctrine
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Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
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Open field = we can film cops in public
Oh this is gonna be fun to watch!
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Re: Open field = we can film cops in public
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Re: Re: Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
Regardless, am I the only one that gets annoyed at people using the courts as a measuring rod for whether or not rights are being taken away? The accusation here is that the government is taking away our rights, and people will justify it with court decisions that removed those rights. Here we have an accusation that rights have been taken away, and it's justified by saying that courts have never considered those rights to be rights or that it's OK that the rights were taken away. There isn't any discussion of whether the claimed rights are actually rights except an appeal to court authority, the same courts that are a part of the government who is taking away rights. It doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
> annoyed at people using the courts as
> a measuring rod for whether or not
> rights are being taken away?
That's a hallmark of this particular AC-- who is really Average Joe in stealth mode. As long as a court says it's okay, he thinks the issue is settled and really shouldn't even be criticized any more.
Had he been alive at the time, I'm sure Average Joe wouldn't have had a problem with the WWII Japanese internments, either, because, hey, the Supreme Court said it's perfectly fine to rip people from their homes, take everything they have, and imprison them indefinitely merely on the basis of their cultural heritage.
If the Court said it, it must be true!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
No, you're not the only one.
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Re: Re: Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
This current decision therefore has serious logical weakness and a successful appeal would seem quite possible.
Let's also not forget that the chief issue here is not whether the surveillance itself was a problem, but whether this surveillance can be done without a warrant. The mere presence of an illegal plant should have been adequate to establish probable cause, and therefore a warrant should have been easily obtainable. Why was it not sought?
Perhaps someone in law enforcement can explain to all of us why the use of a warrant is so undesirable, and what is the motivation is to skirt the clear and simple words of the 4th Amendment.
It would be easy for an outside observer to guess that the reasons are either 1) sheer laziness and paperwork dodging or 2) avoidance of a documentation trail which could allow other wrongful activity to be revealed.
Perhaps I'm wrong about that, but if so, I'd like to hear why.
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Re: Doesn't matter if it's a trespass.
> into an open field—whether trespass or
> not—is not a search within the meaning
> of the Fourth Amendment.
I wonder what would happen if the property owner(s) came across these government agents in the act of installing their devices-- perhaps having been alerted by some security equipment of their own-- and disarmed them and held them under citizen arrest for trespassing.
They may not have a legal expectation of privacy, but they sure as hell still have the right to exclude whomever they like from their land and if they catch someone trespassing-- even cops-- they have the right to arrest, detain, and press charges for it.
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'Weed' is a rather visible plant. Common sense says that if they see something that looks like it might be cannabis, then it should be easy to get a warrant to place the camera or take plant samples. Of course, I could also imagine needing THC measurements in places where it's legal to grow. However, we're talking the US which ATM has a legal minefield for hemp growers. ;)
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Re: Why put cameras on an open field?
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Either way, this is bad news.
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And if the evidence isn't thrown out, doesn't that imply the trespass wasn't illegal?
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The only way I see this video being admissible is if the government agents in question did not in fact trespass on the person's property.
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My question is how does that open field law affect me shooting, or otherwise destroying garbage that was abandoned on my property?
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1. set up a montor directly in front of one
2. play a couple of Disney movies, a bunch of MP3s, and a couple of porn movies.
3. notify the MPAA, the RIAA, and John Steele of the infringing copies made by the cops.
4. ????
5. profit!
;-)
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And now you know how any law school criminal procedure class discussion of the open fields doctrine begins.
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Isn't there an easier way?
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Re: Isn't there an easier way?
So not only are you mounting external devices on your toy copter, which will screw up its aerodynamics, you're also adding a non-trivial amount of weight. Both will significantly impact its ability to fly.
tldr: Turning a $50 toy RC copter into a surveillance drone is not simple, due to problems with those pesky laws of physics.
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Re: Re: Isn't there an easier way?
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Re: Re: Re: Isn't there an easier way?
Turning a cheap R/C copter into a surveillance drone isn't just easy. It's downright trivial.
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1b. Invent long range, high-definition MRI-scope
2. Target remote location
3. Record images of magnetic field
4. ??????????*
5. PROFIT**
* (watch people hiding in terror / running from flying ferromagnetic objects)
** (you can skip to this step at any point after 1b)
/trollphysics
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This is not my day.
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http://www.garyjohnson2012.com/issues/civil-liberties
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It's also a tragedy that we will incarcerate innocent people just to be certain that the guilty ones don't get away. This logic astounds me because if you take two seconds to think about it, the guilty person already got away because you convicted the wrong person and assumed your mission is complete.
Our entire so-called "justice" system is predicated on doling out punishment rather than solving social inequities that caused the crime to happen in the first place so that it doesn't trigger more crime. We're so absorbed into this penal system that we think it's more important to punish the wicked than it is to protect the innocent. Or worse yet, we believe the innocent can be better protected by violating those rights we hold self-evident.
This is wrong, very wrong. It is far better to let a criminal go free than it is to convict an innocent person while that criminal still roams free. We're not being "tough on crime", we're being dismissive of our fundamental rights. The police are breaking their oaths in order to make their job easier. I say that's just too bad. Their job should be hard. They should have to adhere to due process because it was put there to protect the rightful liberties of the people.
Temporary safety should never be a justification to tear down our fundamental liberties. If a guilty person gets away, that's fine. The police are not going to violate my rights just so they don't have to work so hard. These people took on a huge responsibility and they should damn well live up to it in all aspects. And they should be held to a higher standard than the rest of us because they bear that responsibility.
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Oaths
The Police officers need training on the U.S. Constitution. In fact, it should be required training. It was written so a twelve year old could understand it. Taking an oath to Protect and Defend the people, does not mean to injure the people by eliminating their rights.
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Re: Oaths
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Yet they have declared something that is obviously a search as not a search at all. On that point, I will absolutely claim that they've created an ad hoc exception.
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Fences
I would think the next step for these fellows would be to put up a high voltage containment fence and their own surveillence cameras.
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Re: Fences
You forgot the part where there's high powered shotguns pointing at various areas with warnings on said fence "trespassers will be shot"
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I have no sympathy for pot heads, but I have a deeply rooted love for the constitution. I hope that more judges and LEOs will in the future.
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I agree with that, and if the cops had installed their cameras in a public area, I wouldn't have a legal problem with that either.
Where the court goes wrong is when they say that trespassing to do it is fine and dandy.
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Gary Johnson 2012
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Wouldn't it be much easier and cheaper to just allow a light drug that's socially accepted? I personally don't use but contrary to "pot head" arguments I've seen, most people I know that use do so in a very sparse manner and for leisure only. What's the freaking difference between this, tobacco and alcohol? Sure there are the ones who abuse marijuana and end up being drooling vegetables but then again isn't it the same with alcohol? Shouldn't we treat addiction as a health issue rather than a crime?
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These are MY cameras now
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Fences
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Re: Fences
Although in theory, you could have a fogged greenhouse with a (natural) dirt floor, heh. Also in theory, there's ways to detect the compounds they emit besides the obvious 'smell test'.
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Wireless cameras
Hi-Tech bulb with miniature camera and infrared wireless transmission
The spy bulb is used as a normal bulb (110V-250V) with E27 adapter. The device involves a high definition micro color camera 600TVL and a radio transmitter module wireless 2.4 Ghz. It's equipped with a wireless receiver with audio output and standard video output that can be connected directly to a VCR, a monitor, or any device with traditional analog video input.
This spy bulb has 36 LEDs infrared of third generation for good recordings even in very low light. These special LEDs emit infrared light at high frequency invisible to the human eye, even in the dark.
The system includes an high-definition integrated camera with 3.6 mm optical and an angle of 90 degrees. When ordering, you can request the optics of 2.8 mm with an angle of 110 degrees to cover wider areas.
http://www.endoacustica.com/hidden-cam-bulb.htm
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