When A Mouse Requires An Internet Connection, You're Doing 'Cloud' Wrong
from the so-many-options-for-the-hardware,-so-few-for-the-users dept
In a situation eerily similar to "always-on" DRM schemes, Razer mouse and keyboard purchasers are finding their high-end peripherals bricked by software that requires an internet connection to function.So, why would a mouse need an internet connection to be usable? Well, it's supposed to be a feature, but it's behaving more like a bug. A forum member at Overclock.net explains the problem with his new ~$80 mouse:
This really took me by surprise. Just bought a new Naga 2012 mouse, installed the software and get greeted by a login screen right after. No option to bypass it to use the software to configure the mouse, set the options, sensitivity, shortcuts, macros etc.The idea behind this unfortunate requirement is to save your gaming preferences for supported mice and keyboards to the cloud so the next time you're at a LAN party (assuming your LAN party lets you "dial out," so to speak), for example, you would just log in and retrieve your settings, rather than start from scratch on a new computer. Unfortunately, the execution is all effed up.
So I go ahead and create an account and try to log in. Nothing. Try several more times, and still nothing. Try to make new accounts with different email addresses and it still wont work.
Finally call Razer who tells me the activation server is down, and I wont be able to use the mouse until it goes back up and will only be able to use it as a standard plug and play mouse til then. I ask about a workaround to use the mouse offline and they say there is none. Supposedly once the mouse is activated on the computer offline mode will work, but it needs to upload my profile and activate my account first and since their server is down its not going to happen. I ask for a supervisor to confirm this is the case and ask again for a workaround to use it offline. He said sorry theres nothing they can do, tells me the call center is closing and hangs up on me.
I'm pretty shocked Razer thought it was a good idea to do this to customers. Nowhere on the box does it say anything about needing an internet connection to "activate" a mouse. If the servers go down in the future, anyone who buys this mouse is out of luck.
Synapse, the software driving the cloud setup, has both an online and offline mode. Unfortunately, you can't access the offline portion until you've registered your new hardware. This is a problem, especially when the company forcing you to create an account before you can use your mouse can't keep its servers up. Furthermore, if you're away from your own computer (with its offline settings synched) and without an internet connection, your mouse becomes useless again. And it's not just spotty internet connections that cause a problem. It's also other software.
If you work somewhere that has a network behind firewalls, chances are even though you can download the Synapse software, the firewall may also block you from activating and using the software as well.As for Razer's suggested workaround ("standard plug and play")? No one spends $80 for a "plug and play" mouse (or over $300 with the keyboard -- which also requires a connection and an account). The FAQ for Synapse (required going forward for Razer's products) suggests that once your setup is complete, moving between online and offline modes will be a "seamless experience." The definition of "seamless" seems to vary from person to person.
If your connection drops out for any reason, the Synapse software will make a habit of locking up on you while it transitions to offline mode. During that time your settings may revert or possibly not be saved.Google disagrees with Razer's definition of "seamless" as well. Searching for "Razer Synapse" autosuggests the following, which hardly inspires confidence.
Reviews of Razer hardware requiring Synapse haven't been too kind either (at least not to the software). Here's what the person shelling out nearly $400 for just a Razer keyboard has in store for them:
As of this writing the Razer Synapse driver software is easy to download and frustrating to use. Conceptually, it's great: download Synapse and create a free Razer account, then customize your peripherals and your settings will be saved to Razer servers automatically, meaning you can take your Razer gear anywhere and simply download Synapse to have access to your custom configuration. In practice, Synapse runs slowly and sports an unintuitive interface.Fun stuff. All this hassle for a "seamless experience." Min-Liang Tan of Razer had this to say in defense of the Synapse software (via a Facebook post):
Most frustrating of all, during testing Synapse had a hard time reliably detecting Razer peripherals; while testing the DeathStalker Ultimate I had to install Razer Synapse three times across three different PCs, and each time I had problems convincing the software that I had in fact connected our review keyboard. I was able to solve the problem on all of our test machines by either rebooting the PC or reinstalling the software, but it was always a headache.
We invented onboard memory for gaming mice many years ago and called it Synapse to allow gamers to bring their profiles with them on the go. However, we realized that we ran into another issue where we had to keep increasing the amount of memory onboard to provide for more storage and this resulted in higher and higher prices for gamers.First off, it would appear that Razer's products don't work perfectly well out of the box, seeing as they require activation and a registered account before settings can be tweaked. They make work as well as much, much cheaper plug-and-play peripherals but people don't buy Razer devices with the intention of using them like a $10 Kensington vanilla mouse. Second, claiming additional functionality is a bit rich when the software itself is too flaky to guarantee this additional functionality. "Limitless memory in the cloud" is only as good as the software connecting it to the user and, so far, it looks like Synapse 2.0 isn't getting it done reliably.
We then invented Synapse 2.0 where we could provide almost limitless amount of storage for profiles, macros, etc in the cloud as opposed to being limited by physical memory.
We wanted to avoid raising prices to gamers for higher memory space onboard (think about it like having to buy bigger and bigger hard drives as opposed to having all your storage on the cloud) and provide a much better service for our users.
Synapse 2.0 is NOT DRM. Our products work perfectly well out of the box without Synapse 2.0. Synapse 2.0 provides ADDITIONAL functionality of almost limitless memory in the cloud as opposed to taking away functionality (which is what DRM is).
We recognize that gamers will want to be able to use their gear without an online connection, and that's why Synapse 2.0 has an OFFLINE mode. Basically you have to register, create an account, save your initial settings and if you so prefer, you can stay in offline mode all the time without going online.
I realize that we have had issues with the activation server, and we're making sure we get that sorted out.
Third, while it's true that Synapse has an offline mode, it's completely unusable until everything else has been connected via registration. It would be preferable to have a choice before all the extra steps (register, create account, save settings, etc.), rather than be forced to utilize the online version first. (One helpful user of Overclock.net has helpfully posted a real workaround that allows Razer purchasers to use their peripherals and preferred settings, rather than settling for plug-and-play limitations.)
Last, if internal storage is so expensive, why are competitors able to keep their peripheral prices in line with Razer's while still offering the same options and functions? If the price is an object, why not give users the option to store their settings on something else equally portable, like a USB drive?
And then there's the data harvesting. This post at Overclock.net goes on at great length about Synapse's terms of service even though there's nothing really unusual about them. Razer wants as much data as it can get ahold of, much like any other company or online service. The difference here is that registration is forced, with the device pretty much held hostage until the purchaser jumps through all the hoops, hopefully dropping lots of usable information along the way.
Registration for computer hardware is nothing new, but for the most part, people could just indefinitely delay the process if they so chose, or eliminate it completely. I've installed hard drives, DVD writers, printers, etc., all of which asked me to register and voluntarily hand over personally identifiable information. Whether I did this or not had no effect on my usage of these products. Sure, anyone can fill out a form with a bunch of fake information, but Razer will still collect usage data and specific computer information from every computer it comes in contact with. Bringing your mouse with you to a LAN party and downloading the Synapse to access your settings just gives Razer more data to work with.
While some people are referring to this internet-connection-required aspect as "DRM," it really isn't. What it is though, is a consumer-unfriendly choice. If your customers are going to shell out $300+ for a keyboard, wouldn't you think they deserve more than one badly implemented "option?"
Perhaps its Razer's lack of an online help forum that has shielded it (until now) from the complaints of Synapse users. Sure, it has an email address for technical support, but most people probably consider that a last-ditch option at best and a customer service black hole at worst.
Bottom line: people loathe software that requires internet access to use. Pushing Synapse going forward doesn't necessarily make Razer a bad company, but the insistence that users log in and register first certainly plays right into its desire to collect information on its customers. Compounding this misstep with a party line that basically states "Synapse is great and works great" is a large step in the wrong direction. Razer claims to crafting a better user experience, but perhaps it should actually listen to its users, rather than telling them what they'll like and getting defensive when users express their displeasure.
Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.
Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.
While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.
–The Techdirt Team
Filed Under: cloud computing, drm, hardware, internet connection, mouse
Companies: razer
Reader Comments
Subscribe: RSS
View by: Time | Thread
[ link to this | view in thread ]
...for no good reason
In this case, if you buy this mouse to use with one gaming computer that never leaves your house... you still have to register it to get it to work properly. WTF?
All they needed to do to avoid this problem is to provide an option to store settings locally *or* upload them to the cloud for portability. This is not hard, and the fact they don't offer this capability makes their attempted justifications of the software as being for the benefit of the user self-evidently BS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Love my Logitech G510 and G500. I was considering trying some Razer other products, but I think I'll just stick with their mousepads (until they need a internet connection too).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
If it does limit resales, it is DRM. If it doesn't, it's just fricken stupid.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
DRM Mouse........
The Mickey Mouse of Mice !
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I got burnt good by 'Square Enix' on a game called Supreme Commander 2 - the box I bought (yes, bought a physical DVD) said NOTHING about it requiring an internet connection to play...
Normally I have one, but I bought a game BECAUSE my internet was out for a weekend - that REALLY annoyed me. I won't buy a game from them anymore - once I did get internet, it required me to download another Gig of data - the DVD had like 2 GB free - WTF?
It wasn't a patch - it was content you HAD to download to play the version on the DVD - it really annoyed me bad.
Last time I get burnt with that - it's just the principle.
Glad I read this though - my old Razer's about dead - I need a new mouse, guess what I will NOT be buying.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
What does this tell you about DRM?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
http://www.cyborggaming.com/prod/rat7.htm
instead of razer. I have mates that have razor items and havnt had this issue(thank gawd!) and love the produce, normally im a logitech man myself.
This is beyond rediculas though, do these people not even think of people who have to travel often(like me!) - yes a gaming mouse isnt always needed when i travel but i like my damn keyboard and mouse, and i WILL bring those buggers with me(honestly ive actually left some items behind FOR my KB/Mouse hookup on my laptop before - yes i know a laptop has a KB, but try coding on one compared to a kb your comforable with haha).
Razor, in the only way an aussie could honestly say it - dickheads, how about thinking first? It doesnt hurt much after you get useto it, and i promise you in the long run it will actually become usefull!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This looks like a means of forcing users to give their data, and I would want to know what else the razer spy ware sends.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I couldn't get any help from support so I returned the mouse. This was my second experience with a Razer mouse. The first one had similar problems with their software (the Synapse 1 software) and it would frequently stop detecting my mouse, revert settings, and take 10-20 seconds to detect after switching modes.
I'm done with Razer as a company. Logitech has never done me wrong.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: ...for no good reason
I don't expect Google to install a datacenter in my house so I can access its services when my internet drops.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This is just incorrect
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Note to Razer: if you really want to be clever about it, give the option to save settings and prefs to a flash drive, or cache them locally and complete the upload later.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
If you cant store all the user data in 512k, you have more problems than you ever imagined!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This is just incorrect
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
more on board memory in their hardware? Well, what do you need to store in a mouse? DPI settings and key bindings for all the extra buttons seems to be just about it. These should take up a couple hundred bytes if you are doing it right. Even if you wanted profiles for 100 games, that should fit on a 1 MB flash chip, and flash chips of that capacity are as cheap as well. chips.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This is just incorrect
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Honestly?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Used to have one
If it is any consolation, Razer customer support commented on my review and said they were taking my criticisms into consideration. Bottom line, I probably would have bought a keyboard too as I was in the market for that as well. After my experience, I simply avoid their product. Logitech G500 is fine by me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Used to have one
If it is any consolation, Razer customer support commented on my review and said they were taking my criticisms into consideration. Bottom line, I probably would have bought a keyboard too as I was in the market for that as well. After my experience, I simply avoid their product. Logitech G500 is fine by me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
What possible settings do you have? lets say, 18 pre-sets(i know more than it has but hey work with me here), plus DPI, scroll rate - can anyone think of more.
so 18 key pre-sets, 2 key combinations, each key is what , worstcase scenario 1kb(this is amazingly over what its required btw).
so were looking at 18KB plus DPI/Scroll, lets be REALLY generous and say there's another 2kb there. 20KB
20KB.
ill let this sink in once more
20KB.
im sorry i have to ONCE MORE
20KB. I honestly think i could program this for under 500 bytes - but i havnt worked with that sort of storage for a long time.
Are they "honestly" trying to say that onboard storage is that expensive that they are required to use an always on connection to support their mouse settings?
You could multiply my own base calculations by 100 and still burst the data upstream in bugger all time, definatly NOT requiring an always on connection.
My next question would be... what are they transmitting to their servers???
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
If it is any consolation, Razer customer support commented on my review and said they were taking my criticisms into consideration. Bottom line, I probably would have bought a keyboard too as I was in the market for that as well. After my experience, I simply avoid their products. And yes, I bought Logitech.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Honestly?
(yes yes i know there are some very rare circumstances that it can be bigger, but trying to give this story some reason to have a laugh!)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Used to have one
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
the long story short is that gaming forums have known how stupid this DRM is and are basically boycotting Razer products. I hope they realize what that means, since gaming represents 90% of their business.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
I will Never buy razor again, the older ones were awesome, the new ones, not so much
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Could be worse, you could prefer a trackball mouse.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
While I think people are making a mountain out of a mole hill in this case I do hope that Razer resolves the issue by recoding their software to not require registration on the cloud to use some of the advanced features.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
You can't use/program the thing unless you are connected to the internet. Once you set-up you remote while connected to the net, then you can use is, but any change to the remote, needs to be connected to the internet.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Also, they could have an app pre-installed in the flash memory that runs itself when plugged into another machine. There are such apps out there already.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Excuses, excuses
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Is it just me, or is Techdirt getting a bit tl;dr recently?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Have you?, way to compare apples to oranges. The Harmony remote doesn't phone home or collect usage information to send back to Logitech.
" but any change to the remote, needs to be connected to the internet."
Wrong, you any change you make to a device you own(ie. replacing a TV,DVD, etc.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Last time I checked my USB stick never needed no special software to store stuff on it.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Google disagrees....
I can already hear yet another company crying out very loudly against Google's autocomplete feature...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
I personally own a One and have purchased a few of the lower tier options for family as extremely well received gifts.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: ...for no good reason
The point is, people are OK with internet access if it's logically used and/or necessary and kept to a minimum. One-time activation to receive updates and online support for a product? Fine. Constant internet connection required for a multiplayer-only game? Fine. Activation required for a non-networking peripherals or a single player game that should be playable offline? Bad.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/mice-keyboard-combos/wireless-gaming-mouse-g700
It has more buttons, in a easier to use format, uses a standard AA rechargeable battery (and comes with an eneloop battery to boot). Recharges on a micro-USB (and functions as a wire-mouse while charging. Been very satisfied.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Synapse is awful. The Logitech Gaming software is world's above it.
Also, I have an epic. In wireless mode, it often freezes up when using that 'additional functionality'.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Normally, you bring your OWN computer to a LAN party. (At least the ones I participated in during the 90's.) The idea behind a LAN party wasn't to just have a frag-fest with all your buddies in the same room, but to also show off your modded case and brag about your computer specs.
I guess I purchased my last razer mouse. Logitec, here I come...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
- No internet needed
- No software/background process needed to switch
- No need to alt-tab out of yer game
I suspect this might be a case of a pointy haired boss going "We have to do something in the cloud!"
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: This is just incorrect
DPI switching is done via hardware buttons that don't need the internet.
The software is next to useless even without the internet activation. A third-party macro program like AHK is superior in nearly every instance.
I agree with the notion that Synapse is terrible, both in concept (internet activation) and execution. But there's not a solid alternative to the Naga (12 thumb buttons plus 6 standard buttons), and it IS a high-quality device.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Yet another example
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
At the request of his pointy haired boss, Dilbert wrote the "code" to make internet connection a requirement. Dogbert then finds a way to make you pay a "monthly maintenance fee" to the company to "access" your own profile. Leaving Catbert, while twitching his tail in excitement, to pronounce: "Looks like it's going to be a rainy day, in the Cloud."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Dumbest...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
It's just a syntax error
I don't use cloud if I can help it.
Another gripe around this:
Home broadband routers/firewalls that require an Internet connection to configure them. This is SO brain-dead that I think someone should get an award from the Internet security version of the Darwin Awards.
I used to configure network equipment BEFORE installing it. Through the handy little serial port connection that isn't being provided any more. Avoids all the pain and stress associated with a router that INSISTS on being at IP 192.168.0.1 regardless of what subnet it is sitting on. I remember some equipment that used to let you set its address with hardware selectors. Why, yes, thank you, I would like to reconfigure at least one node on my network to accomodate your skinflint marketing department's wishes.
Thanks for the rant. That felt good!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I agree this is like ransomware. No mention of internet connection required til it's out of the box. If I had bought one, it would have been taken right back without hook up once it was discovered that online was required.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Sure, maybe the "cloud" option provides better service... but only if it's an option not the default as you suggest.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Again, I understand why they hold the info centrally since it's updated with additional models,command sets etc, but it should be cached locally and it isn't (at least not in a useable form).Are you sure? Since you're connected to their central server when using the software I'd be very suprised if they couldn't at the very least tell what devices you have configured. Perhaps they don't keep it, but they can damn-sure get it on connection if they choose.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Remote command sets don't really change that much generation to generation and manufactureres tend to use similar sets on later equipment, which is why the old "number code for manufacturer" multi-remotes worked even on later equipment (with maybe some errors for new features. More than that on the remote you can create them manually... except you can't without the internet connection.
So if Harmony decide to do it another way and stop supporting the server, or if they go bust, or even if their database suddenly becomes incompatible with your model remote due to a schema update demanded by some "improvement" they've made, the next time you change out a piece of equipment your expensive multi-remote turns into an expensive brick when it should be (and in fact is) capable of supporting any command set.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
1. Once you have setup your remote there's no need to connect again unless your going to be adding a new device or deleting one. The last time i need to connect my remote to the internet was five months ago when i added my WDTV Live.
2. There's probably ten's of thousand devices on that database and it's easier for them to add,and change entries then create a never ending files for download. One device i bought over two years ago had the wrong info for the control over the device, one phone to the customer support and they made the change to support it and now anyone the got the same device would be getting the new control info.
My harmony one controls my ac, clock radio, av receiver, tv, cable box, wdtv live, and xbox 360
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
Where do they get their produce, the local supermarket?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
It's possible they've stopped including on-board storage and are relying on Synapse 2.0's cloud storage non-feature for new devices. If that's true I'll probably stop buying their products.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
and this:
cannot both be true.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Used to have one
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
However, there is an argument against my point. I was unaware of this until I did a little research today: Logitech has a mouse with a similar form factor to the Naga. If you can get the same functionality and quality without the bad software then the choice to purchase a Naga despite Synapse gets much less attractive.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The rest of what you say is mostly true and there is indeed a valid reason for an internet connection and that it works in this way is a great feature, but the fact remains that it should not be mandatory for basic functionality.
If manual config worked locally as you suggest I wouldn't have a problem because then the remote would learn and work if I choose to spend the effort teaching it for as long as devices use IR remotes. As it stands however Harmony, and not I, have control of how long I get to use my device for and that is wrong.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
Don't really care if they know what type of devices or who the manufactures are, just don't want them tracking what I'm using it for or how many times i use said devices. Since its been very long stretch in between connections I highly don't there tracking anything. If they had me connecting every couple weeks for no reason then you might have a point. I agree that they need a backup and cache type of option but it hasn't been a back breaker for me. If another company designed a remote with the same type of style, options and added the backup / cache I would consider purchasing that product at appropriate time.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: What does this tell you about DRM?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Too complicated
I see this sort of thing sometimes, some piece of hardware that makes me have to either waste all this time or have the skills to hack into the Pentagon just to install the stupid thing. I won't be buying that sort of crap anymore.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Really? Interesting, yet dumb move razer....
In the past 5 years, they've gone downhill and I've since moved over to Logitech. Super happy with the g700. its more than I need out of a mouse. I was just lying to myself when i thought I needed Razer gear, although I don't game as much anymore...That's a whole nother story :P
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mindless misdirection
That's completely a red herring.
The underlying problem here is that the problem is USELESS unless you can phone home to the Logitech mother ship. Unlike a normal remote, you can't just configure it yourself.
You are forever dependent on some server at Logitech Corp somewhere. That is the essence of the cloud. If the cloud goes away so does the usefulness of your device or service.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
No, you can't. You can use the device as if it were a cheap mouse without the software, but that's not using it as intended.
The hardware is only one component of the complete device. If the hardware is of high quality but the software is not, it is not a high quality device.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Besides the registration issues (it's not the first time their registration server has been down, remember it being also down first time i used my mouse about a year ago) and until very recently the auto patcher forcing OS reboots on every single patch (what is it? still the age of windows 95?), i just find the whole "settings in the cloud" on hardware devices to be a feature only useful to a tiny fraction of consumers on very limited occasions while having far to many downsides for everyone else
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sue them for violations of MM Warranty Act
Remember though, no class-action. That pays lawyers more than hurts a company or gets customer satisfaction. Take them to small claims for maximum damages, you stand a much better chance at getting proper and just compensation, especially since most lawyers are not allowed in small claims court in most jurisdictions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You do need an internet connection to setup on configure the Harmony.I have owned the Harmony One since September of 09, since my initial setup and configuration I have only needed to connect my remote to the net six times till now. Those times i have connected have been to add new devices, change channel info(channel numbers & Icons). I'm not a big macro guy and my setup is pretty simple. It sucks that when you tried to connect you had issues, stuff happens but once your setup your basically done, and not required to keep connecting to the Internet like Razor products. I agree there needs to some sort of backup/cache option I just don't see it as critical as others might.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
On the other hand, locking customers out of using their hardware for no reason at all is pure stupid.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Resale...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
RAM cost
This thing is saving HOW MUCH data for Key controls??, something is wrong here.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Really?
That much storage costs about 5˘.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Mindless misdirection
"
The whole discussion over the Logitech Harmony is red herring within red herring squared. Their solution is not perfect and I don't think they are making it to be one. I'm no expert but i have owned Philips(they also had software for palm) and Marantz learning remotes close to a decade ago and harmony's solution to the issues that plagued those system blew them out of the water. The Philips remotes are the most tragic as you could design your own UI for those remotes. Many made some spectacular UI's for those remotes, that you could freely download and many people tried to maintain device databases but it was an extreme cluster f**k.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: ...for no good reason
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
I have (and still do) on a daily basis. I do not use Synapse and never have. Other than "saving my profiles to the cloud" there is zero functionality that Synapse provides that is not also available either through free third-party programs or native Windows functionality.
I can create macros. I can save profiles. I can remap all the buttons. I can swap DPI. And I have an accurate and responsive device that provides a much better experience than a "cheap mouse without software".
The ONLY functionality that is not available without Synapse - cloud-storage profiles - necessarily requires an internet connection and an account, rendering the complaint about online activation moot.
You are just plain wrong. I know it's hard to admit that sometimes, but you are.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Buy an IR transceiver from an open source project :)
Here is one, there are others.
http://www.irdroid.com/
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Like the Razer, the Harmony does not work as it should unless you have an internet connection, which makes it a valid conparison. There's no reason for that no matter how you slice it. Like the Harmony it appears that you can't use the Razer "offline" mode (for remote read using the remote once programmed) without an initial internet connection and there's no good reason for that on the Harmony unless you happen to have a device newer than the last production run - operating systems seem to manage just fine for example including "default drivers" for most devices. The remote ships with a CD - how hard would it be to include the latest DB at time of production run on it and update that with the internet connection?
Is it as intrusive? No, I agree with you there, but it's the same principle. Bottom line is that I got the remote as a gift and in operation I love it, but if I were spending my own money on it they wouldn't have a customer because of this feature, which was the point of the article.
This kind of control strikes me as a general corporate disease of imagined control and my guess is that if wireless/cell networking were a ubiquitous "given", that the Logitec requirement would be just as intrusive as the Razer. The "user convenience" arguments ring hollow when there are easy ways to do it without the always on connection and when "user choice" is removed.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Diplomatic Pressure
So it's four more years of undemocratic behind-the-scenes dealings. I hope you're all happy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
But back to the point, guess how many of those 19 boxes I bought I've ever opened? Zero. None. Notta. For all 19 of those games, I'm still running the copy I pirated. They have no bugs, no DRM, and no steam (yes I know that's repetitive since steam IS DRM, but many people don't see it that way...) I never have a game magically disappear because some dumbass running a cloud server doesn't THINK I bought it. I never get kicked off multiplayer because I have singleplayer cheats enabled (I'm looking at you, ME3 - and yes, I only have cheats enabled that don't effect multiplayer anyway, i.e. all items in stores, etc.) And yet, I still support games and the companies who make them, with my wallet - I just don't support the asshats they outsource their DRM to.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Diplomatic Pressure
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This is just incorrect
Reading comprehension ftw.
He is mad because his expensive mouse operates as a regular pnp mouse WITHOUT the advanced features that make use of the hardware he bought.
Are you trying to make this sound like a good thing? What's wrong with you?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This whole fiasco doesn't surprise me that much--being a lefty, I bought their Lefthanded Deathadder a while back. The mouse itself is great for a low-end gaming mouse..but the driver has a rather critical problem in it. For some reason, (at least for me, anyway) it craps itself if you try to take the simple measure of swapping the functions of the LMB and RMB. (I'm weird, I guess--I'm a southpaw, but have used right-handed and ambi mice so long that I'd rather use the 'standard' LMB/left-click, RMB/right-click setup than the supposedly 'lefty' reversed setup). This might not be a problem, except that half the games I own bother to check the Windows setting for reversing the buttons, and the other half apparenty go straight to the mouse driver--and it's highly annoying trying to rememeber which game does which. Support response was BS on what's pretty obviously a driver bug--at one point they were insisting I needed to send the entire mouse back...*on my own dime*.
Frankly--I'd just about beg Logitech to make a lefty gaming mouse, so I'd be able to wash my hands of Razer entirely--I have Logitech gamepads for PC and console, and more than a few of the ambi mice I've had to use were Logitech, so I know their stuff *works*. But I want something designed for the hand I use to game with, not just some ambi..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Logitech had this beat years ago with...
But, but, but, but....how do we make cross-licensing deals using overbloated software ala Packard-Bell era deployment strategy?
You don't, you become as irrelevant as you should be based on poor decision making.
While Logitech isn't a perfect company either, and I myself have encountered some rather funny excuses from them...nothing this dumb has rolled down their pike to date.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Return the mouse
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Hey Razer, get a clue.
- The user may not want to install the synch software on his system. Don't force it. Install the drivers and the local software only. Or have the software be in a local-only mode, your choice.
- If the synch software isn't there (or is disabled), save locally.
- If the user doesn't have an account, pretend he's not connected and save locally.
- If the user has an account but isn't online, save locally.
- Save locally FIRST. THEN check to see if he's enabled the synch, is online, and has an account. If all are true, THEN synchronize.
The online synch should be a feature ADDED TO your peripheral software, not the other way around. If you can't learn that, you need to not be in business.
Please note: I was actually interested in buying a Razer mouse until I read this. (Oh, and I just received a bit of extra disposable income.) Now? Not. (I'm sure I'll find something else to spend it on. When you get down to it, I'm actually pretty happy with my $25 Logitech wireless.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Memory? Expensive? Are they mental?
What will a few profiles for a peripheral take? A couple of kilobytes, if that??
So, what, chips which can store at least a few kilobytes are a significant part of the BOM now?
You find more storage than that in a novelty electronic toy from McDonalds, or one of those joke birthday cards which sings/plays music when you open it.
We'll just gloss over the fact that USB sticks, with hundreds of thousands of times more storage than this, are basically free in capacities of 2GB and under, shall we?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I've used logitech ever since I was able to afford my own stuff and its never failed me. Always very ergonomic and well priced.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
They're not alone...
Madness beyond belief.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
I really don't understand this with a Mouse, I don't think their software engineers get the use for these type of systems. It isn't necessary with hardware...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
New Razor software
Rest assured neither I nor my coworkers will be using their stuff if they insist on mining our data to use a mouse.
You would think their business model would work well enough selling the most expensive peripherals available without abusing their customers privacy...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
If you do modify your mouse, just don't ever connect it to the internet... which might allow you get the updated drivers to not have to rewire your mouse in the first place... yea, buy two. One for online use and the other for offline use because... piracy!
Oh well, at least your mouse won't get the red ring of death... yet.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Go for the easier option?
Users then end up with a mouse/keyboard that doesn't need to wait to transition to offline, and yet end up with profiles they can carry with them between machines.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This is fixable
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Can Be Helpful
[ link to this | view in thread ]
if it's already so expensive...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
So, obviously, you don't own, nor have ever owned a Rev. 1.0 G15 where:
1) the "soft plastic" coating breaks over time in warm climate zones and goes all sticky, requiring you to purchase 99% isopropyl alcohol to strip the entire surface back to the base plastic.
2) Where the paint on the keys rubs off so you can't see the lettering.
3) Where the back-light flickers for no reason.
4) Where the fancy LED Game Panel screen develops lines through it and never had enough support, so there were virtually zero functioning apps for it.
5) Where the software is so bloated it actually required 5 or 6 separate processes to run in the background to support the keyboard and,
6) where, over time, some of the keys, not being mechanical, just cease to function at all?
My friend bought a Rev. 2.0 G15 after he saw mine, but before the problems really became inherent. His died well before mine did. So, I don't see how you can laud Logitech and their "no frills" hardware, when the produce some of the crappiest quality stuff with all the supposed "bells & whistles". Maybe your budget $20 Logitech keyboard works, for now, but their "gaming" products leave much to be desired.
As a side note, all the paint is coming off my G5 Laser mouse, it's "soft plastic" coating degraded jsut like the keyboard, and my Z-5500 5.1 speakers crackle randomly.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Legacy driver
It doesn't have the connection requirement. Works on my Naga just fine.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
There's a difference between a few personal settings on a mouse, and 500,000 AV device settings.
"What about allowing the option, but also allowing you to download"
Word to the wise, you must be connected to the internet to download stuff. Again, why would you download a 500,000+ entry database just for your half a dozen devices?
Not that I'm defending Logitech here. I'm an antenna technician and AV installer, and personally, the Logitech Harmony software and install process are a joke. Installing these in the field is painful, since the presets for devices in the Harmony database are sometimes incomplete, so features have to be manually programmed (like the "music" button on a Foxtel/Austar remote. But your argument is simply impractical.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
*bought
Bought = purchased with currency
Brought = transferred from some place to another on one's person
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Steam is a service. There's a difference. Sure, Steam pass on 3rd party publisher's DRM, but they are required to or those publishers wouldn't release their games on Steam, and the community would be worse off for it.
I suppose you could make the argument that you can't play a Valve game without Steam, and that's probably somewhat valid, But Steam is an integral part of Valve's games, and Steam itself, does have an offline mode.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
...except I ran into this same exact issue with a Logitech mouse about two years ago. My solution? I returned it and bought a generic M$ mouse instead. No fuss no muss.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
It's you.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
Distract some people with the idea we are saving them so much money, and pray they ignore its a smokescreen.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mamba 2012
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re:
My old rev 2.0 G15 had some of the mushiest, least tactile keys I've ever felt on a keyboard. I'm currently using a cheap Dell keyboard that came with the computer that it's currently attached to and it gives a considerably better typing experience. At least that revision did something about the hilariously dim backlighting of the original G15, but the quality was diminished in every other conceivable way.
The original G5 was okay, with one notable exception that made it virtually unusable for games: the scroll wheel was a complete pile of crap. When mine was just outside of the return period, it started double and triple triggering, which made selecting weapons in FPS titles incredibly difficult. After a while, it began to trigger at the slightest touch. To make matters worse, the wheel button was so hard to press that half of the time doing a middle-click would cause you to jog the wheel.
I would put it down to me getting unlucky and getting a bad mouse, but I know two other people who bought a G5 and they had the exact same issues with it.
That being said, I have been pleased with my Z-2200 speakers. I also have a fairly recent trackball from them that has proven to be a solid performer (and it doesn't have any scroll wheel issues, like every single one of Logitech's gaming mice seem to quickly develop). I also have an old Logitech Elite keyboard that I've beaten the hell out of (after retiring it from normal use I used it as a shop keyboard, so it's been moved a lot and suffered an accidental drop or two) and despite that I haven't had any issues with it. Logitech is great as long as you stay far away from their gaming products.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This is just incorrect
Needless to say I went back to the legacy drivers for all three of the Razer mice my family uses. I've been a customer since the Razer Bloomslang and if they don't get rid of this cloud nonsense and restore offline always reliability to their drivers, I'm switching companies for me and my family. It really is that simple. I can't believe I even have to take the time and write a post about a mouse.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This is just incorrect
If so, then yes, that's the one I use. There's also third party software once can use to interact with the mouse. Either way, I agree with John's assertions. Having to utilize either of the methods I've mentioned negatively affects the perceived quality of a product out-of-the-box.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Flash memory
I tried to get a patent for this through the company I worked for at the time, but they said it was not worthy of a patent. However, after reading this article, that would solve the problems of having to "activate" the mouse and of storing the settings "in the cloud". But then the mouse company would not get to play Big Brother with its customers, either.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Also, Corsair peripherals FTW. I didn't even bother installing the software for my M60 for about two months, because I rarely use many key bindings and the hardware DPI adjustment/Sniper mode worked perfectly straight out of the box. When I did install, it took five minutes.
Razer, you fail it. Go back to designing overpriced gaming laptops with pointless extra features, everybody loved those... oh wait, you need Synapse 2.0 to use all the features on the Blade UI too... :D
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Flash memory
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Bad choice
[ link to this | view in thread ]
An Alternative Method
[ link to this | view in thread ]
An Alternative Method
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Response to: joe on Feb 13th, 2013 @ 12:10pm
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Sue them for violations of MM Warranty Act
well this sounds like something a company like Razor would like to know about and would fix down the road.
Dont tie up the courts over your tiny little mouse
[ link to this | view in thread ]
deathadder
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Razer mouse and Cloud
To everyone that wish to join the NAS cloud system let the Razer to connect 24 hours to your PC! Yes to use a mouse, with all these special feature we find it to hard to program a driver to run on your pc,,, so we thought make a cloud and if you have a internet connection you have 100% full access to all the feature and if you don't well your mouse is now a basic mouse with no software features and this we let you have for 80$
Hay maybe car companies can do the same what you want your ABS break system to work, sorry your car has no internet connection but don't worry the car breaks still work lol !
Last time I will be buying a NSA mouse... from RAZER if they don't update their software...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re:
>Digital Rights Management
>Digital
>Hardware
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]
It's probably cheaper than creating storage for more than just firmware.
Not too convenient, but I would have preferred simply having to install my mouse on every machine I use than having to rely on the internet.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
Requiring and Internet connection for some bloated, poorly written software for a FRIGGIN keyboard? Yet another web login to track and be concerened about for a FRIGGIN keyboard? Yet another Terms of Use agreement to be concerned about?
Then to really hammer in the last nail in the casket, they delete my thread in their official forums asking about it.
Now my concern is warranted and justified. Just makes you wonder what information they are tracking and selling. A company that exhibits this types of business tactics raises many red flags.
Yup, going back to logitech without question.
I really need to get back into the practice of reading 3rd party review sites before buying stuff again.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Created and account and necro'd a thread because i'm angry
[ link to this | view in thread ]
read above subject
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: This is just incorrect
That is the definition of DRM.
You sell it to your friend. He has to download and install the software. When your friend enters their data, it will show on their server as being two different people and block your friend from using all features of the mouse.
That is DRM because the full function is being blocked by a server gate keeper. It does not matter that you have to hook to the internet once. Once is too many times.
This software could just as easily be put on a dvd and included in the box. The USB port on the keyboard can easily store settings on a thumb drive. You do not need internet to do that.
The registration and activation is the DRM. Unless you do that, you can not use the product as intended, with all advance features that were already built in, in advance.
I refuse to download and register the synapse, as a result many of the features that makes this keyboard special is voided and extra dead weight. While I had to pay extra just to get a stinking basic keyboard which is not how it is advertised on the box. Example all 5 macro keys on left side of my keyboard are locked out. because of my refusal to hand private info over to razer.
when they were talking selling points about the keyboard on the back of the box There is NO MENTION of needing to download and register in order to unlock all features.
It is hidden on the side in small print. This is technically misleading advertising. because they fail to mention it on the back with all the other features they talk about since the synapse download is much of a feature as the fully programmable keys.
DRM is still DRM no matter what you choose to reword it as.
Once they stop supporting the server or your mouse/keyboard it no longer has full function THAT is DRM.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Razer Naga
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Razer Naga
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: That's it!
Few complaints, if it needs internet even if you Install the Tournament drivers that need no internet they still Access the internet potentially without proper consent.
I noticed issue installing drivers I was prompted for comparability with remote access / VPN.
Maybe a stretch but before Installing Driver Never had issue. Windows managed the mouse fine. But if you want to use the Features you pay for, you need razers software or some Third parties.
This is improper for a company not to maximize the potential of their product with shitty Customer support and cloud based software.
After installing Razer Drivers, the mouse freezes, you loose control of it and Even Blue Screens from Unplugging the mouse trying to get it working again. Usually it will come back auto but I've had times with Razer driver cutts out and than you can't control it so I have to have a wireless mouse just in case my mouse doesn't work is pretty bad.
But works fine with windows default drivers.
Good job razer, you look like a shit company for Corporate milking and throw the gamers under the bus.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Blue Screen from Razer
IT is bad software, Installing it caused a blue screen.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
how is this different than SW requiring initial online connect?
It can get worse -- I bought two sets of headphones for 2 different computers, but the online SW only recognizes 1 set of settings, so the 2nd computer+its headphones is a separate device requiring a separate license (which the SW doesn't support!).
Massively messed up and their online support was of no help.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re:
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: how is this different than SW requiring initial online connect?
2) Because there's a lot of reasons why you would want to use a mouse offline, especially when you've paid a premium for that mouse's advanced features.
3) Because in the 5 years since this article was written, not one decent use case has been suggested that required cloud communication for a damn mouse.
Your headphone experience is equally ridiculous, but that's just another sign of how silly this stuff is getting, not reason to excuse the mouse setup.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Re: Re: Re: That's it!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
razer peripherals are junk anyway
They have a great looking product line -- but all plastic made junk designed to be disposed of and replaced in a few years.
With their hype marketing, aimed at young new buyers, they are sure to pull in lots of suckers for years to come.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
[ link to this | view in thread ]