Barnes & Noble Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires

from the ebooks:-where-'buying'-means-'renting-for-an-indefinite-period' dept

Tue, Nov 27th 2012 11:42am — Tim Cushing

DRM rears its ugly, malformed, malignant, cross-eyed head again. Despite the fact that, as Cory Doctorow so aptly put it, no one has ever purchased anything because it came with DRM, an ever-slimming number of content providers insist on punishing paying customers with idiotic "anti-piracy" schemes.

Combine this "malware" with digital distribution that sticks the end user with an unfavorable license rather than, say, an actual book, and you've got another ready-made disaster. The Consumerist has the details on yet another paying customer dealing with DRM stupidity. It starts off with this physical analogy.

[I]f reader Synimatik had bought a paperback book a few months ago and picked it up to read now, the book’s pages wouldn’t magically glue shut just because the credit card she normally uses at the bookstore has expired.

Obviously, no one would expect a physical book to be subject to the whims of the publisher or the store it was purchased from. A sale is a sale, even if many rights holders would rather it wasn't. But, Barnes & Noble doesn't see it that way. Sure, you can buy an ebook from them, but you'd better keep everything in your profile up to date if you plan on accessing your purchases at some undetermined point in the future.

Yesterday, I tried to download an ebook I paid for, and previously put on my Nook, a few months ago. When I tried, I got an error message stating I could not download the book because the credit card on file had expired. But, I already paid for it. Who cares if the credit card is expired? It has long since been paid for, so the status of the card on file has nothing to do with my ability to download said book. I didn’t see anything in the terms of service about this either, but it’s possible I missed it.

This is just one more reason to either not buy ebooks, or strip the drm off of the ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY on all your devices without having to purchase multiple copies for no reason and have access to something you already bought when you want it.

Nice work, B&N. Driving another person away from your offerings with your amnesiac point-of-purchase system. No one's purchase should be invalidated once the payment has cleared. Barnes & Noble got its money but its customer is out both money and a book. Does B&N really wish for its customers to root their devices and strip the DRM out of their purchases just so they can enjoy them at their own pace? Shouldn't the company be catering to its customers rather than treating them like thieves who can't be trusted even though they've already paid?

If this was a one-of-a-kind experience, we could chalk it up to "live and learn." But a whole lot of living has gone on and the only lesson anyone's learning is the most efficient way to remove pesky DRM idiocy from their purchased "licenses" in order to turn them into actual, useful goods.

Thank you for reading this Techdirt post. With so many things competing for everyone’s attention these days, we really appreciate you giving us your time. We work hard every day to put quality content out there for our community.

Techdirt is one of the few remaining truly independent media outlets. We do not have a giant corporation behind us, and we rely heavily on our community to support us, in an age when advertisers are increasingly uninterested in sponsoring small, independent sites — especially a site like ours that is unwilling to pull punches in its reporting and analysis.

While other websites have resorted to paywalls, registration requirements, and increasingly annoying/intrusive advertising, we have always kept Techdirt open and available to anyone. But in order to continue doing so, we need your support. We offer a variety of ways for our readers to support us, from direct donations to special subscriptions and cool merchandise — and every little bit helps. Thank you.

–The Techdirt Team

Filed Under: drm, ebooks, failures, nook
Companies: barnes & noble

147 Comments

If you liked this post, you may also be interested in...

Reader Comments

Subscribe: RSS

View by: Time | Thread

Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:49am

Geez. This is definitely new(s) to me. I have a ton of books I purchased for/through my Nook. And all of them with a card that already expired.

All I can say is thank goodness that my hatred of DRM led me to download the DRM-ed copies the moment I bought them and then using a deDRM plug-in available for Calibre (and made especially for Barnes and Noble purchases) removed said DRM and now PERMANENTLY own the copies I legally bought and paid for. But, I know for a fact my mom hasn't done this, so I will definitely have to log in to her account and download the books and remove the DRM on her behalf. Which means two three. 1) More work for me and 2) Barnes and Noble has officially lost two paying customers and 3) I will make it a point to mention this to every single person I have recommended a Nook too.

ongratulations B&N. You have easily lost ten customers today, all of whom easily purchase at least a dozen books or so a month on their various Nook devices. And all of whom you will NEVER get back. I'll make it a point to find alternative sources for ebooks for myself and all those I know. And by alternative sources I mean legal ones who DO NOT pull this kind of crap on their customers.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:56am

In my workplace, I'm one of three people who use an e-reader (all of us are Kindle lovers). A fourth person randomly came up to me during lunch sometime last week and asked me about e-reading and what I recommended, since they're curious about it. I said, get the Kindle, it's the best e-reading device, but NEVER under any circumstances "buy" a book from Amazon et al. My reason? They have a nasty reputation for remote deleting the content off of your device and for rewriting the definition of the word "buy".
To this day, the only e-books I have paid for was that Humble Bundle from a few weeks back. They are the only e-books I feel safe in purchasing, because they're DRM free. I know for a fact that, barring a simultaneous crash of hard drives all around the world, I have access to the files forever.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Divide by Zero (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:56am

Hey, copyright maximalists. You know how you love the word theft, or stealing, even though they are completely inappropriate? This is a case where it IS theft, plain and simple.Taking money from a customer and then refusing to hand over the product is stealing, and should be punished as such.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
E. Zachary Knight (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:02pm

Re:
Check out Smashwords. They have a large collection of books and they are DRM-free.

From their about page:

What is Smashwords� position on digital rights management (DRM)?
We think DRM is counterproductive because it treats lawful customers like criminals. Consumers value non-DRMed content and there's a growing body of evidence that digital content producers who have abandoned DRM are enjoying greater sales. Many buyers of ebooks resent DRM because it limits their ability to fully own and enjoy their digital book. At Smashwords, we only publish DRM-free works. By the same token, we strictly discourage illegal pirating of an author�s works.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
:Lobo Santo (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:05pm

Re: the 'T' word
No, I think the word "theft" is entirely appropriate here.

B&N stole a legitimately purchased book from a customer.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Peter TB Brett, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:14pm

Re:
Check out Baen Ebooks. Lots of 100% DRM free and reasonably-priced e-books. :-) Baen are definitely one of the good guys in the realm of digital publishing!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:14pm

I'd not have a DRMed product in the line of ebooks or music, ever. Too many horror stories like the above, the Amazon rule juggling/buy definition, authorizing servers going off line, and the schemed on agreed artificial price boost that in some way tries to say an ebook is as valuable as a physical book.

I can easily find download sites that deal with no DRM in an ebook and with no cost at all. So what is the reason I should put up with my purchases vanishing after having paid for them again? Storage on hard drives comes at pennies per megabyte and doesn't magically disappear.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:15pm

Monopolies are wonderful it allows you to produce nothing and be completely obtuse about your customers and clients, you don't need to pay attention to what they want or need because you are the only one with something and so the tools in management keep rolling out bad services that nobody wants or care and the people who try have very bad experiences which contribute to the early demise of those services, then those same managers get scared about other services that actually are better and provide things that they should have but didn't.

Like Barnes and Noble here and Disney streaming service which told its customers that anybody who bought anything from their rental/streaming/sale online service can apply for a refund.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57552205-93/disney-to-shutter-little-known-movie-streami ng-service/

People don't want a refund they want what they paid for.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Real Michael, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:18pm

"DRM rears its ugly, malformed, malignant, CROSS-EYED head again."

While I agree with the gist of your article, I don't think it's appropriate to use 'cross-eyed' as a negative connotation. People who are cross-eyed usually cannot help their condition, whereas parasitic corps exploiting their consumers can.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
gorehound (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:19pm

I will be one of the only people here who will say that every time I read this kind of News I end up laughing.l do own a lot of books.Like 303 vintage pulps, over 1,000 paperbacks, and around 300 hard covers.
My books are all original and paper.They now range in value from around $5 to $1200.I have an Appraised Collection of $16,500 and the Appraisal was done very Conservatively.
My Son will get my library and he loves it.

your ebooks are worth nothing, can not be willed, can not be resold, and can be either deleted or made not to work.

So go ahead and have a cry...........I will be sitting on a goldmine that just keeps going up in Value.

Sorry but I do have a big hate for Electronic MAFIAA DRM BS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

out_of_the_blue, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:20pm

So don't buy those readers.
You've agreed at time of purchasing those gadgets that you're an idiot who should be fleeced. First Law Of Capitalism is that it's criminal to let suckers keep their money.

"It has long since been paid for, so the status of the card on file has nothing to do with my ability to download said book." -- A common flaw of spoiled brats these days is compulsion to contradict sheer facts. Obviously it does matter regardless of what one believes or read or didn't read.

Also shows basic ignorance of this point of Fundamentals Of Rational Copyright:

) ... digital data is even less"owned" by the purchaser than with physical media, not more.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:27pm

Re:
No, the correct term is actually fraud, although theft is a close second.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
agalvan (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:29pm

Cognitive dissonance
I wonder if those who support B&N's actions also support the premise "Intellectual Property = Property."
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Zakida Paul (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:32pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
Yeah, the consumer is to blame. What a complete moron you are.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sneeje (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:34pm

Re: Re: the 'T' word
"Licensed" you mean.

/sarc
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:37pm

Re: Re:
Much appreciated. Thanks!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sneeje (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:37pm

Re: Cognitive dissonance
Well, the bottom line is that it either is or it isn't. If you want to argue that infringement = theft, then you need to acknowledge that digital goods purchased by consumers are now the property of the consumer and subject to first sale rights, etc.

But of course those who believe digital goods are the same thing as physical objects don't want to acknowledge this inconsistency.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:44pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
No, when you purchase a physical copy of the book, you own it. Why should the same not apply to your digital stuff just because the method you paid for it with has expired?

I wouldn't expect my books to become unusable merely because my giftcard wan out of credit. Nor would I expect my e-books to do the same. It's bugfuck crazy on the scale of Cthulhoid entities.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gwiz (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:46pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
A common flaw of spoiled brats these days is compulsion to contradict sheer facts. Obviously it does matter regardless of what one believes or read or didn't read.

A common flaw of OOTB is a compulsion to be a dick, even when it appears he more or less agrees with an article and has to resort to attacking the victim.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gwiz (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:47pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
A common flaw of spoiled brats these days is compulsion to contradict sheer facts. Obviously it does matter regardless of what one believes or read or didn't read.

A common flaw of OOTB is a compulsion to be a dick, even when it appears he more or less agrees with an article and has to resort to attacking the victim.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:54pm

Re:
And can all be lost due to a single match.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 12:58pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
'"It has long since been paid for, so the status of the card on file has nothing to do with my ability to download said book." -- A common flaw of spoiled brats these days is compulsion to contradict sheer facts. Obviously it does matter regardless of what one believes or read or didn't read.'

OK, you got us. It should be "should not matter" instead of "does not matter". Although, come to think of it, the author of that comment may have meant the LEGAL ability rather than the ACTUAL ability, in which case they would be correct.

In any case, since the person did purchase the rights to a copy of the book and is being denied the ability to download the book, this is probably fraud if not theft. Or at least breach of contract.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:02pm

It's so you can't resell...
If downloading wasn't blocked to accounts not linked to a valid credit card, then someone could 'sell' their account safely.

Riddle me this: I pay for it and use it often. It's mine and mine alone, but I can never resell it. It grows more valuable every day without me doing anything and I couldn't be happier with this arrangement. What am I holding?

It's not an e-reader, that's for sure.

It's my library card.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:15pm

Another reason why I'll be sticking with paperback and hardback books for the rest of my young life.

I could adapt and use new technology, as a software developer you'd expect me to. But nope, not when I know they can pull crap like this to effectively steal my money.

I'd rather risk breaking or losing the paperback books then let them take a book away from me that I already paid for.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:16pm

From the ever-helpful NOOK FAQ:

Why do I need to enter a credit card to download my NOOK Book?

To access your protected purchases, you must have an authorized credit card on record with Barnes & Noble.com. It does not necessarily have to be the credit card you used to purchase your NOOK Book(s).

Translation: You need a credit card to download your NOOK Book because we said so.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:27pm

Re:
More like to determine whether you are alive or not, so your inheritors cannot get your books.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Guy From V, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:29pm

DrivethruRPG is another great DRM-Free ebook seller.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Keroberos (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:33pm

Re:
The reason for this is because--for some retarded reason--your credit card number is used as the encryption key for B&N's DRM, and it has to be a valid credit card. If your card is expired their system can't use it as an encryption key and therefore, you cannot download any books that you have previously paid for. Solution (which I found within less than a minute on google): add your new credit card as your account default and re-download your books. While I hate DRM and will never buy a DRM'd e-book, this isn't as big of an issue as everyone is making it out to be.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BentFranklin (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:39pm

DRM and forever downloads are different things. One is a stupid restriction, the other is a benefit. True, she was denied her benefit for a crappy reason, but that isn't because of DRM.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:51pm

Did you read the fine print?
"Ability to download licensed works only available during the first 90 days of license, or 3 downloads, whichever comes first"....

Or something similar, I'm sure it's in there... just like all those 'download it now' software 'licenses' that only allow one download, don't allow re-starting failed downloads, or re-downloading after a system re-install....

We know we paid for something.... we just may not be able to get it, or recover it in the event that we lose it for some reason...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:54pm

Re: Re:
They also have a revolving selection of free ebooks, the Baen Free Library, that generally consists of the first book of various series. Not really relevant but Baen is pretty awesome that way.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:56pm

I have never bought an e book, I have hundreds of e books, sometimes I buy the hardcover version of one of the e books I have. I do wait until they are in the 10% bin though.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:57pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
So, do go on. Where did it state that once a consumer's credit card expires, all purchases made with said credit card would mean fuck all and all property involved in said properties would be confiscated?

It wouldn't happen with physical books; why the hell would it apply to e-books, you dickhead? Rational copyright, my ass.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gnudist, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:58pm

Re:
Well, most ugly people don't choose to be ugly either....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
GrayGaffer, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:58pm

No access to purchaed e-stuff if credit card has expired
Until recently, Apple App store would not allow free updates or cloud restoration for this reason too. Only with the latest iOS 6 update does it just do the download without asking for password.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Kevin Burton Smith, 27 Nov 2012 @ 1:59pm

What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
I'm curious if there was any follow-up, or if there's been something left out of the original story. I have plenty of books on my Nook purchased with a credit card that is now expired, and all of them work fine.

As I understand it, you need a valid credit card attached to the B&N (or Amazon, or iBooks) account to download anything, even a free book or a previously purchased book that's been removed from the Nook and archived on B&N's servers (which is apparently the case here). If the current card is expired, attaching a valid card should do the trick, right?

Or doesn't it?

Unfortunately, we're missing the full story. Did the conveniently anonymous user even attempt to contact B&N? What was their response? Seems to me this isn't even a DRM issue at all, but an accounting one.

Perhaps even an accounting issue that could be resolved. As it is, though, this little piece -- and the obligatory feeding frenzy of heated commentary -- seems more concerned with self-righteous outrage than resolution.

Perhaps a little more journalism and a little less ranting next time would be in order. And might even prove useful to those of us who don't want to lose any of our e-books.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
minijedimaster (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:06pm

Re:
That crappy reason for preventing the "forever download" IS DRM. Their DRM system is tripped when the CC on file expires, thus preventing further downloads of previously purchased products.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:15pm

Re: Re:
Insurance will pay for them
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:18pm

Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
What if she doesn't have a credit card anymore? She's out of luck and has to apply for another one?

A lot of people are now ditching credit cards all together.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Kelly, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:23pm

Wait. If you buy something and the money is taken from you but you don't get the product, isn't that theft?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Infowars, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:25pm

Re:
The reason? It's called a SWAT Team.. That's the reason..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jakerome (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:28pm

Re:
Just an FYI. The books already downloaded weren't disabled. It's just that when the customer went to download the books again he was prevented from doing so.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jakerome (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:30pm

Re:
How is this insightful? Listen what B&N did is crappy. But nothing was deleted off the device. The customer was simply not allowed to download copies of books he already bought. That's a shitty policy. But it's not at all the same thing as remotely deleting content from a device.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Keroberos (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:33pm

Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
No, no follow-up. Just the typical anti DRM ranting with no information.

Don't get me wrong, I hate DRM as much as anybody here. I just hate it for the right reasons--this is not really one of them. The problem I have with B&N's DRM is that it uses your credit card number as its encryption key--not a very good idea, and can create situations like this.

The person in the article is an idiot who spent more time bitching on the internet than it would have taken to solve the problem in the first place.

The solution to this problem is to add a valid credit card to your B&N account--a solution that can be found in less than a minute on any search engine. If that doesn't work it's a customer service issue. But they didn't follow through with that--so crappy journalism on the part of The Consumerist. It's like blaming B&N about not being able to download your books because your internet connection was canceled and you haven't gotten a new ISP yet--that's not their problem.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Keroberos (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
Debit cards work too. And a credit/debit card is required to download books from the Nook store--it's in their terms of service. As much as wish that they would change it--that's the way it is.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:40pm

Re: Re: Re:
but they are still gone.
with digital storage and offsite storage, my house can get leveled, burnt to the ground, and then paved over, and I won't loose a book, photo, or video.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:56pm

I think this may explain all the books disappearing on fictionwise that BN just bought.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 2:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
... until some guy you've never met, in a company/government agency you know nothing about, decides that your files, or the service they are being stored on, are/is illegal in some way, shape or form, and then suddenly they go 'poof'!

His collection can be lost due to a single match, yours can be lost due to a single mouse click; there's not nearly as much difference between the two as you seem to think there is.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
New Mexico Mark, 27 Nov 2012 @ 3:18pm

Re: Re:
And that's the key to this incident.

A more correct analogy than the glued paperback would be that I burned my first purchased copy. The store has a policy of issuing free replacements for purchased books, so I ask the store for a replacement copy of the paperback I already bought, downloaded and burned. The not-very-bright store clerk checks my account and sees that my credit card has expired, so refuses to give me another copy.

Admittedly this is bad programming (or bad specifications), but not so much a DRM issue.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
The Real Michael, 27 Nov 2012 @ 3:31pm

Re: Re:
True. But people with disabilities really can't help it. A student who used to go to one of my schools was cross-eyed and, from what I heard, would sometimes stumble over himself. Pretty sad, actually.

Regardless, back on topic, B&N just became another business to avoid. I mean, who wants to purchase something knowing that it could disappear at some random moment in the future? Not good.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
mal, 27 Nov 2012 @ 3:49pm

Re:
1600 books... "conservatively 16k" "goldmine" BWAHAHAHAHA

my best laugh of the day. Can I get your appraiser to come round and do my books.. better yet they can come round and I'll sell them for half their appraisal.

I'll still be ahead 500%
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Milton Freewater, 27 Nov 2012 @ 4:55pm

Re: Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
"The solution to this problem is to add a valid credit card to your B&N account"

No, the solution is to jailbreak the files you bought.

I get what you're saying - the author seems confused about how clouds work. If you forget your keycode for your storage facility, that's not the storage facility's fault.

But what they're REALLY upset about is being told they have to keep their property at a storage facility instead of at their house. I think that's fair. It's your stuff. Don't passively wait for somebody to give you permission - just take it home.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 5:43pm

Re: Re:
Considering he specified first run (as in first edition originals), I'd rather believe him than you. How many first edition hard cover originals do you have work $1200?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 5:47pm

Re: It's so you can't resell...
Yep, and my wife uses mine all the time to download new books she wants to read. For free! OMG!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 5:49pm

Re: Re: Re:
No - your analogy is not more correct, I'd say it is much worse. Why do people waste time with analogies anyway? Why not simply address the issues without the need for lengthy discussions about how somewhat similar occurrences might or might not be handled. Analogies have no relevance and are possibly just an attempt to divert the topic.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 5:52pm

Re: Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
Here, have a condom. If you're going to act like a dick, you might as well dress like one.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Alana (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 7:26pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
It's okay to admit you have an addiction.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 7:27pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
However, the digital version can be copied and stored in multiple locations far more easily and cheaply than a paper one. This makes it far more resilient.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 7:53pm

iBooks and Google Play
This is why you should only buy e-books from Google Play and iBooks. Neither Apple nor Google have been as anal to invalidate your purchase when you're credit card date expires. I mean what does Barnse and Nobel do with your books if you bought their e-books with a gift card???
[ link to this | view in thread ]
That One Guy (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 8:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Fair enough, as far as digital goes it is drastically easier to back up by having multiple copies like that, so digital does indeed win in that respect.

However, as far as individual collections go, they are still just as equally vulnerable to being wiped out, which is what I was trying to point out.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 9:21pm

Re: Did you read the fine print?
Yes, I'm sure it's in there ... so I'll not even look before claiming it is and then pontificate about how people need to get real.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 10:02pm

Arrrrrrrgh, off to the bay of swashbucklin'!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 10:10pm

Re:
There's a simple test for this. If there was no DRM in this case, would the customer be able to download normally? If the answer is yes, then DRM is to blame.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:27pm

Re: Re:
"If your card is expired their system can't use it as an encryption key"

This sounds more like a bug in there software.

Of course they can use an expired card as an encryption key. It is an encryption key and has nothing to do with the credit card. B&N fail.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:27pm

Re: Re: Re:
*their
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 27 Nov 2012 @ 11:46pm

Re: So don't buy those readers.
So basically what you're suggesting is that because Barnes & Nobel customers, who were not even notified of the DRM, deserve to have their RIGHTFULLY PURCHASED E-BOOK's deleted because the credit card they used to buy their purchases expired this year??? Surely you jest.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 12:54am

more drm less customers
Prevent people who have given you money under the pretenses of a sale of an item from actually accessing or using it afterwards

Wonder why people resort to "stealing" a copy they *can* use

B&N, Amazon, etc can sod off
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 1:13am

Re: Re: So don't buy those readers.
The scary/facepalm-worthy problem is, he's not jesting.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Marcel de Jong (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 4:34am

Re:
I only grab free ebooks from Amazon. Perhaps not the big ticket authors, but still there are gems to be found.

Buy to rent is not my idea of good investment.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Marcel de Jong (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 4:49am

I think this case can't be compared to physical goods at all.

I know of no store that replaces your goods when you lose your bought item.

It's an added service that B$N offers, which is a nice thing.

While I do agree that it's stupid to tie it to a credit card, instead it should have been tied to the account.
But why should B$N keep offering the free download access if the client has lost access to said library?
Of course, in this case, the client can't help it that a credit card has an expiration date. But the client could've made his own backup copy of his library as well.

Who's duty is it to maintain the library of the client? The client or Barnes & Noble?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Niall (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 4:50am

Re: Re:
Still deprivation of paid-for services with no warning. That's certainly fraud, and given that 'copying=theft' is right up there with grand larceny, especially since it is potentially *actually* depriving the user of their 'property'. Just because it's not being deleted off their reader isn't relevant - once paid for, it's essentially cloud storage. If they have no requirement to download it within a certain time, then they cannot 'expire' it, especially for something as stupid as an expired credit card. It would be totally different if it were some e-book version of Netflix, where you couldn't access something in your queue after your card expires and therefore your subscription, but that would still be about a subscription expiring.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Niall (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 4:55am

Re: Re:
I suspect a SWAT team costs a lot more than individual losses due to 'piracy'. Which means then the corporatocracy can complain more about losses!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jedifarfy, 28 Nov 2012 @ 5:46am

Sigh. The DRM is linked to the credit card to prevent copying (which happens anyway). Go onto your account, add a credit card that is not expired, and read your book.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Niall (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 6:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So is Apophis a match or a mouse click?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Niall (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 6:23am

Re: Re:
And you shouldn't need a credit card to buy this stuff, let alone download it in the future.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ralph, 28 Nov 2012 @ 6:58am

Ridiculous
Articles like this just reaffirm my M.O. which is - if I want to have a digital version of something I just buy the physical version and go pirate it digitally; it's what I've done for every ebook and a lot of video games at this point.

Some may say this isn't moral and that two wrongs don't make a right, but when it's the only option we have to prevent them from walking all over our rights morals can't exactly come into it. When there's a legal method to buy something digitally and there's absolutely zero chance it will disappear with no warning, no explanation, and no recompense I will gladly walk the straight and narrow.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 7:59am

Re: Re: Re:
Since I bought my wife and I our iPods, we have never used credit cards unless they were gift debit cards. When the huge ammount Apple UDI's were hacked, we had nothing to worry about :-) We also use Google Play gift cards on our phones. But seeing how neither company take away your purchases when your credit cards expire, it's sort of moot to mention that.

The point is that the only reason we never use a credit card on mobile device app purchases.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 8:47am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Analogies have no relevance and are possibly just an attempt to divert the topic."
Analogy is what human culture is made of. Experiences happen in a context, not a vacuum. We make connections between events and ideas; we form expectations; we progress from passive reception to interaction. Now relax and have some nice tea and cookies.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 9:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
However, the digital version can be copied and stored in multiple locations far more easily and cheaply than a paper one. This makes it far more resilient.
I think this point is arguable, as well. The cost of maintaining and replacing digital storage has to be factored in. Have we reached the point yet where digital storage won't fail after a decade or two? A physical book lasts a lot longer than a hard drive, and its use doesn't consume any power.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
grayputer, 28 Nov 2012 @ 9:48am

Re:
If you like scifi/fantasy try baen books ( http://www.baenebooks.com ). No DRM, reasonable pricing, lots of free books, I get lots of my stuff thru them.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
pidgeon92, 28 Nov 2012 @ 10:53am

BFD
Just add a new CC to your B&N account, and re-download the file. This article is making mountains out of molehills.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
btr1701 (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 11:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> His collection can be lost due to a
> single match, yours can be lost due
> to a single mouse click; there's not
> nearly as much difference between the
> two as you seem to think there is.

He said 'offsite storage', not cloud storage. I'm not sure how some stranger can delete the files I have stored on a spare drive at my girlfriend's house-- which is connected to nothing-- with a single mouse click.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Wally (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 12:29pm

Re:
It's most certainly up to B&N to at least maintain record of your purchases. However, it's not about who stores what library as it is that with this particular DRM. It disallows the re-download of an item that's been purchased when the credit card you used to purchase said item expires.

I'm not going into how Google does it because my iPod is my e-reader. If I'm Apple's iBooks DRM only allows up to 5 devices tied into one iTunes account. e-books can be downloaded to one device at a time so all I have to do to transfer one of my e-books to say an iPad, I just delete the e-book from my iPod's memory and download it to the iBooks rack on my iPad. As much a hassle as it seems, as long as you've purchased that e-book from Apple's iBooks service, it is YOUR copy of a book. B&N not only disallows the use of your purchases from being transferred between your nook reader to another even if you own both, it delete any record that you ever purchased the book altogether.

So not all forms of e-book DRM are a hassle. It's just B&N making things worse for their customers as usual.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 1:10pm

Re: Re: Re:
Truly in this case, the digital scenario adds a dimension that doesn't exist in the analog world. That of being able to get a replacement copy of a title you bought if anything happens to the copy you had.
In a sense it could be looked at as a free extra and so having a barrier like needing an current credit card on file is not the same as having anything at all taken from you.
On the other hand if that requirement does bother you, you can always replicate the service for free, yourself by storing copies of your purchased ebooks in the cloud.
You could have done so on Megaupload but for some reason that doesn't seem to be available any more.
Still, I'm sure there are alternatives.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 1:13pm

Re:
" I said, get the Kindle, it's the best e-reading device, but NEVER under any circumstances "buy" a book from Amazon et al"

Funny, I have a different make of ereader and do buy books from Amazon. I don't have concerns that they will reach out and remotely deleting the content as the DRM is stripped from said ebooks in the process of converting them to be read by my device.

It does feel weird, that my one reason for defeating DRM is to allow me to purchase content. Nonetheless, defeated it is and I buy what I want to buy.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 1:16pm

Re: Re: the 'T' word
"B&N stole a legitimately purchased book from a customer."

No, they did not.

They made it slightly more awkward for him to retrieve copies of titles he had previously bought if anything happened to the original copies that he had already downloaded.
They are all still there and can all be accessed if he jumps through a minor and cost free hoop. It's a dumb way for them to manage that system, but it isn't by any definition theft.

It's fine to mock copyright maximalists redefinition of words, just don't let yourself start believing your own redefinitions.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Tom Semple, 28 Nov 2012 @ 1:32pm

I don't think this is accurate
I find DRM as annoying as the next person, but I do not believe this information is accurate, based on my understanding of how the DRM works.

To read your B&N ePub with a non B&N reader or app, you only need to know the CC/user name on file�at the time you download the epub file from your B&N account (from their web site). A hash of the CC and user name (not including expire date) is baked in and the reading system (assuming it implements the UI for prompting for username/CC) prompts for these (and only these) when you open the epub. So it doesn't matter if the CC is expired or not. There's no authentication that needs to happen with a B&N server, Adobe RMSDK simply hashes the credentials you supply and if they match the hash that is baked in, the book will open (and it will remember this hash and open other books that use the same one without prompting). It doesn't 'call home' to see if the CC is valid or anything like that. If you can't open the book, it is because you didn't type the credentials in correctly (note the B&N user name is used not the name on the CC).

That said, once you download it you need to keep track of these credentials or you won't be able to open the book. But as long as you can access your B&N account, you can always download a fresh copy and note the CC/user name on file and use that.

It might also be true that a Nook device or app won't let you side load an epub if your CC credentials or user name has changed since you downloaded it. They may not see the need to implement the dialog to ask for these, with the (only usually accurate) assumption that they can just use the same credentials the device/app itself is authorized with. As far as I know, they're currently the only vendor that uses passhash form of DRM and so they may regard any attempt to side load something protected with this type as an attempt at illicit sharing between two B&N customers. Again, the workaround would be to download a fresh ePub from the same account the device/app is authorized with.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 3:48pm

Re: I don't think this is accurate
You're sort of right - I'm a B&N store employee, and it's true that you can't pull anything down from your B&N account if your credit card expires... ...until you put a valid one back on your account, at which point everything magically works again and you can redownload everything without paying anything else. Getting access to stuff you purchased in the past is contingent on you having the ability to buy more stuff at any time. It's a little annoying, and it's not how I would have set it up, but it's not theft.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2012 @ 4:45pm

This is exactly the reason I convert my ebooks into plain text. The process is automated however it's kind of slow.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
erik (profile), 28 Nov 2012 @ 11:37pm

Whose property?
One way or the other, DRM always ends up requiring that a particular piece of viewing equipment takes action against its owner.

This amounts to a very serious violation of the equipment owner's property rights.

It goes further than that. Since nobody will keep putting up with that kind of equipment, DRM also requires outlawing alternative devices.

And even that is not the end of it. DRM eventually introduces the requirement to have full and continuous root-level control over other people's machines.

DRM not only requires the own citizens to join up but it also requires bullying other countries into signing up to it. And all of this has to be enforced at gunpoint.

So, eventually, pushed to the extreme, DRM assumes that a sufficient number of people can be found who are willing to die for someone else's profits. That is obviously where the bluff will end.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Edwin Martin, 28 Nov 2012 @ 11:48pm

If it's bought with a credit card, it's insured, right?

I would complain to the credit card company and ask my money back.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Erik, 29 Nov 2012 @ 12:45am

Re: Re: I don't think this is accurate
Is the B&N content that incredibly interesting that people will continue to be willing to put up with that? Authors want to get paid and readers want a fair and convenient deal. If B&N likes to shaft the readers, they will succomb to the temptation to shaft the authors too. Sooner or later they will end up alone, with only few authors to sell from and rather few readers to sell to ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Erik, 29 Nov 2012 @ 12:45am

Re: Re: I don't think this is accurate
Is the B&N content that incredibly interesting that people will continue to be willing to put up with that? Authors want to get paid and readers want a fair and convenient deal. If B&N likes to shaft the readers, they will succomb to the temptation to shaft the authors too. Sooner or later they will end up alone, with only few authors to sell from and rather few readers to sell to ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Erik, 29 Nov 2012 @ 12:46am

Re: Re: I don't think this is accurate
Is the B&N content that incredibly interesting that people will continue to be willing to put up with that? Authors want to get paid and readers want a fair and convenient deal. If B&N likes to shaft the readers, they will succomb to the temptation to shaft the authors too. Sooner or later they will end up alone, with only few authors to sell from and rather few readers to sell to ...
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Mokane, 29 Nov 2012 @ 1:35am

This is what small claims court is for
Barnes & Noble has stores in almost every state. It's a simple matter to sue them in small claims court. They are clearly in breach of contract. If they get rapped with enough suits, they will end this practice. Let's not be distracted by digital diversions like downloading, DRM and licensing. This was a contract for the purchase of goods governed by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. The fact that the goods are in digital format is irrelevant. All sales are accompanied by an implied warranty of merchantability. Not being able to read a purchased book is clearly a violation of this warranty.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
What Haveyou, 29 Nov 2012 @ 2:19am

nice try
"I don't think it's appropriate to use 'cross-eyed' as a negative connotation"

You think being cross-eyed is POSITIVE?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ch, 29 Nov 2012 @ 4:05am

Huh?
Are you saying that because someone purchased a book from BN, BN now OWES him free hosting for the rest of his life?!

True, he should be entitled to read books on his ereader (drm'd or otherwise). If you want to mirror the paperback analogy, try this: if you order something from a store - do they have to store it for you indefinitely until you pick it up?

Most stores have a 30-90 day grace period, after wich you forfeit you item. It's a classical case of bailment, akin to leaving your suit at the cleaners for an extended period of time.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Richard Green, 29 Nov 2012 @ 5:11am

Re: Re: the 'T' word
Look up the definition of theft : http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9a.56.020

"(1) "Theft" means:

(a) To wrongfully obtain or exert unauthorized control over the property or services of another or the value thereof, with intent to deprive him or her of such property or services; or ..."

I think they did exactly this. Their control was unauthorized with the intent to deprive. Open and shut surely ?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BrailleLover, 29 Nov 2012 @ 5:17am

Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
I have never used a credit card for my Apple online/iPhone/iMac purchases, apps/books have ALWAYS been purchesed using iTunes gift cards that I buy at 7-11 or another store, I'm legally blind, so I get the store staff to read the code to me, & I redeem it right there on the spot, with App Store...
I also download tons of free books & apps, no problem.
I have close to 1900 physical books, I also pay no more than $5 for any of them, thrift stores & public library book sales are great for that!
I also have the most valuable thing any book lover could have..

A simple LIBRARY CARD!!

wow, what a novel idea!

In this age of commercialization & greedy corparations, I'll gladly keep my humble little library card..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BrailleLover, 29 Nov 2012 @ 5:17am

Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
I have never used a credit card for my Apple online/iPhone/iMac purchases, apps/books have ALWAYS been purchesed using iTunes gift cards that I buy at 7-11 or another store, I'm legally blind, so I get the store staff to read the code to me, & I redeem it right there on the spot, with App Store...
I also download tons of free books & apps, no problem.
I have close to 1900 physical books, I also pay no more than $5 for any of them, thrift stores & public library book sales are great for that!
I also have the most valuable thing any book lover could have..

A simple LIBRARY CARD!!

wow, what a novel idea!

In this age of commercialization & greedy corparations, I'll gladly keep my humble little library card..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
BrailleLover, 29 Nov 2012 @ 5:17am

Re: What's the Full Story, Morning Glory?
I have never used a credit card for my Apple online/iPhone/iMac purchases, apps/books have ALWAYS been purchesed using iTunes gift cards that I buy at 7-11 or another store, I'm legally blind, so I get the store staff to read the code to me, & I redeem it right there on the spot, with App Store...
I also download tons of free books & apps, no problem.
I have close to 1900 physical books, I also pay no more than $5 for any of them, thrift stores & public library book sales are great for that!
I also have the most valuable thing any book lover could have..

A simple LIBRARY CARD!!

wow, what a novel idea!

In this age of commercialization & greedy corparations, I'll gladly keep my humble little library card..
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Nov 2012 @ 5:46am

Re: Huh?
This ability of a store to host the books you bought is one that arises naturally from the digital environment and comes at no extra expense to the retailer.
Companies can either use that ability, deliberately choose not to use that ability, or go somewhere inbetween by adding unnecessary hoops for people to jump through.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Muzz05, 29 Nov 2012 @ 6:48am

DRM
How do I know if a book that I have "purchased" is DRM protected and how do I get the DRM off of it? I have 2 e-readers, a kobo and a kindle.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
jakerome (profile), 29 Nov 2012 @ 11:16am

Re: Re: Re:
I just went ahead and voted that as funny. Sounds like what a fake-Masnick would write for a few laughs on the copyright maximalists blog.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Fred, 29 Nov 2012 @ 11:30am

I have no words...
No, wait, I do have words.

WTH? So the solution is to buy an ebook, then pirate it to make sure you get to keep it.

Maybe we should just pirate the books first, then if we like it, we can donate the book price straight to the author? Cut out middle-men distributors like this one?

Someone tell me what to do here.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
newguy, 29 Nov 2012 @ 11:43am

ownership
You left your Nook somewhere; come back to claim it. The person who found it asks you to describe it, & for some ID. Do you say "I already paid for it!. Just give it to me!'? Digital info is effectively "left behind" whenever not in use. You're re-claiming it every time. There's undoubtedly a better way to handle this, but if all of your CCs are expired, you have bigger problems than this anyway.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Transmit, 29 Nov 2012 @ 12:00pm

Corrections
Corrections
"ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY"

ones you purchase so you can READ the book you BUY
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Overcast (profile), 29 Nov 2012 @ 12:26pm

Easy fix; support your local library.

I refuse to buy books now because of all of this - I just go 'pirate' them by checking them out and reading them FOR FREE at the Library.

And no, I don't need to make a copy, I can just check it out again later.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 29 Nov 2012 @ 1:40pm

Re: Re: So don't buy those readers.
If you purchase a hard copy of a book and lose it, you don't get to go back to the bookseller and pick up another copy for free. Same applies here. If we want to own digital copies in the same way that we own hard copies, with the same rights of transfer, etc, then we can't have these double standards.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
confused, 29 Nov 2012 @ 1:41pm

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Nov 27th, 2012 @ 11:49am
I do not have credit cards so i use prepaid credit cards and gift cards for my purchases on my nook. I have done it this way for the past few years and i know my prepaid credit cards have expired on purchases as i don't use the same ccards as better prepaids have come out and i will switch so why do i have access to my books since my card expired on me and have had no problems. I can understand your frustration but not how that happened to you. Did you ever download the purchase,did you archive then try to gain access again? I am just puzzled to this and are of course concerned as a nook owner and hope to keep from having the same thing happen to me.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Gnudist, 29 Nov 2012 @ 7:04pm

Re: Re: Re: I don't think this is accurate
Damn temporal anomalies.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
alberta ross, 30 Nov 2012 @ 2:14am

Re: Re:ebook theft
also most authors on smashwords offer their books in all formats therefore kindle readers can buy them and nook owners and those without readers can get versions fro computer reading.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems, 30 Nov 2012 @ 8:22am

Re: Whose property?
That is obviously where the bluff will end.
You have a shiny optimism that is refuted by thousands of years of human history.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Brett Glass, 30 Nov 2012 @ 9:18am

If people did not steal, this would not be an issue.
It is easy to imagine that someone could pass around an expired (and hence useless for other fraud) credit card number to enable infinite, free digital downloads of a book that ought to be paid for. So, if Barnes and Noble is to have a feature that allows you to re-download books, you can understand why it would have to be tied to a valid credit card.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
MahaliaShere (profile), 30 Nov 2012 @ 10:57am

Re: Whose property?
Customer unfriendly doesn't even begin to describe it.

It would be nice if people actually cared about industry practices of companies they get their entertainment from. It would be nice if people picked up on the absolute disdain showed by publishers, their authors, retailers, and those in between.

Sure, it's all fine to say "I just wanna read the book, I don't care about anything else." And I get it, but there's a bigger world outside of one's own little wants. Years ago, I bought some bestseller paperbacks, completely unaware of industry practices. I was just happy to be reading. Then I got into ebooks, became interested and educated myself. Very rude awakening, to say the least.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
randi marshall, 30 Nov 2012 @ 11:04am

e books and barnes and noble
I had this problem with 1 of my ebooks purchased via bn.com. I logged out of my account and logged back in and the problem was solved. I believe it is simply a glitch in their systems that occurs from time to time. You have paid for the book it is yours and they cannot remove it from you if your credit card has expired. So if the writer has not yet logged out they should try that.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Andre, 30 Nov 2012 @ 12:34pm

Presumptuous
The headline implies that a customer's ability to read a book purchased from B&N ends when his or her CC expires. Now if a book on his device self-destructed or was remote wiped on his card's expiration date, that would be a legitimate DRM issue. If he no longer had the card, and customer service refused to provide a replacement copy, that would arguably be a legitimate DRM issue, depending on the TOS.

I hate DRM as much as the next guy, but articles like these tend to attribute any and all inconveniences with accessing content to DRM, when they could easily have more benign explanations. It could be that his invalid CC prevents him from using any of the services associated with his account. This is more of an issue with downloading than with DRM per se.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sam, 1 Dec 2012 @ 7:41am

Re:
Amazon have no such "reputation". In recent memory, they've done it to one person, once. And we never did find out exactly why, so they might have been perfectly justified for all we know.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Justin Alexander, 1 Dec 2012 @ 10:25am

Re:
Amazon at least gives publishers the option of NOT having DRM on their Kindle books. As someone who publishes e-books, this is one of the reasons Amazon gets preferential treatment from me. Unfortunately, I noticed while uploading Circle of Witches a couple days ago that they've stopped displaying this information in the Product Details.

We won the DRM battle with DivX discs and we won it with music. But computer games and digital distribution are shoving it back down our throats again.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Eric Welch, 1 Dec 2012 @ 12:14pm

ironic
I find it amusing and not a little ironic that those complainers who are righteously complaining about B&N and DRM are, unless they are on Linux, using a *licensed* operating system (this includes you Apple folks) that gives you the same rights as that ebook you are so afraid to download. You are forbidden to sell, rent, loan, or give a copy to anyone. Read the EULA you signed when you purchased your computer or loaded the OS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems, 1 Dec 2012 @ 3:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wait, so hard drives are indestructible?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
dennis deems, 1 Dec 2012 @ 3:04pm

Re: ironic
I tried & tried to think of a way in which an operating system is like a book, but nope, I got nothin.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Sarah Smith, 1 Dec 2012 @ 7:14pm

Purchased eBooks only yours until your credit card expires...
B&N changes this or I never buy another eBook from them. Ridiculous.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Balance, 1 Dec 2012 @ 10:18pm

Re: Re:
add your new credit card as your account default

What is the consideration in return for providing private, valuable information that is frequently misused? eg. marketing scams.

this isn't as big of an issue as everyone is making it out to be.

Actually it is - B&N is taking advantage of the fact that they control the book you supposedly own to force you to give them private information that they are not entitled to.

Ownership is, by definition, the right to control something and every time they reduce that control they are engaged in theft.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Tex Arcana (profile), 4 Dec 2012 @ 5:23pm

Re: Re: Re: the 'T' word
B&N aren't "copyright maximalists": they are simple extortionists, holding your legally paid-for material until you pay again. And either way, it's illegal, and morally reprehensible.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
AnotherPosterWithAnOpinion, 8 Dec 2012 @ 7:37am

You're not purchasing a book
I'm sure someone else has pointed this out, but I'm too lazy to look.

When you purchase a paper book you are NOT purchasing the written content you are are purchasing a container of the content. Paper. The content BELONGS to the author/publisher (the copyright owner). This is why it is illegal to make copies of it (generally).

ebooks are the same.

Unfortunately, between the "content" and the "reader" (the person) is a pile of poorly integrated technology and ill thought control mechanisms.

Apple, a few years ago, abandoned DRM completely. With iTunes I occasionally backup my purchased content. Further, If I wanted to I could put those songs on another device (non Apple) and they will play. Even prior DRM'd content can be de-DRM'd with a slight effort.

It is just a matter of time before Amazon and B&N remove DRM as well - or at least make their system idiot proof against their own idiots.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
AnotherPosterWithAnOpinion, 8 Dec 2012 @ 7:37am

You're not purchasing a book
I'm sure someone else has pointed this out, but I'm too lazy to look.

When you purchase a paper book you are NOT purchasing the written content you are are purchasing a container of the content. Paper. The content BELONGS to the author/publisher (the copyright owner). This is why it is illegal to make copies of it (generally).

ebooks are the same.

Unfortunately, between the "content" and the "reader" (the person) is a pile of poorly integrated technology and ill thought control mechanisms.

Apple, a few years ago, abandoned DRM completely. With iTunes I occasionally backup my purchased content. Further, If I wanted to I could put those songs on another device (non Apple) and they will play. Even prior DRM'd content can be de-DRM'd with a slight effort.

It is just a matter of time before Amazon and B&N remove DRM as well - or at least make their system idiot proof against their own idiots.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
fraunthall (profile), 10 Dec 2012 @ 8:21am

ebooks, drm and publisher greed
There is plenty of evidence to show that the cost to the publisher in distributing ebooks is extremely low, nevertheless, in the pursuit of egregious profits prices for ebooks are maintained at ridiculously high levels. I would be willing to bet the farm that the share going to authors has not increased in accordance with the extent of the rip-off. I, for one, refuse to buy ebooks from the usual suspects. Their desire to change the game to assert that a purchaser does not own the ebook he purchased is just par for the course from these scumbags. These guys must think they have the same entitlement to screw the public as the cellular telecommunications companies believe they have.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Qu Terry, 10 Dec 2012 @ 2:54pm

Thanks
I have heard of B&N ripping people off with their digital ebooks so I'm glad I got a chance to actually read your blog. Likewise I've been buying a lot more digital books from Amazon since their prices have been likely cheaper.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
yanassi (profile), 10 Feb 2013 @ 4:22pm

wow, almost bought a nook!
thanks. the nook was included in devices i was going to choose from to purchase. this information gave me pause, then i ask my wife who bought a nook confirmed the article. she told me had she known she would've avoided the nook. sadly, her nook was damaged during vacation and because she realizes she is forced to buy a new nook to read already bought books she became annoyed at the fact she paid for a book she doesn't own. future ebooks and devices will be bought, and nook will be avoided. good luck B&N, you'd better hope consumers don't learn this policy before purchasing a nook.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
yanassi (profile), 10 Feb 2013 @ 4:30pm

wow, almost bought a nook!
thanks. the nook was included in devices i was going to choose from to purchase. this information gave me pause, then i ask my wife who bought a nook confirmed the article. she told me had she known she would've avoided the nook. sadly, her nook was damaged during vacation and because she realizes she is forced to buy a new nook to read already bought books she became annoyed at the fact she paid for a book she doesn't own. future ebooks and devices will be bought, and nook will be avoided. good luck B&N, you'd better hope consumers don't learn this policy before purchasing a nook.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Chris Cousineau, 23 Feb 2013 @ 1:30pm

Nookbook
This isn't true. My CC expired, and I still had access to previous purchased books. I just couldn't buy any new books. Sure it wasn't Amazon?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
rlynn, 28 Feb 2013 @ 1:55pm

Lost Ebooks
I'm not too sure about Barnes and Noble, but what I do like about Amazon is I can delete books or just about anything off of it and reclaim it because all my purchased items are saved on Amazons cloud. That was a big plus for me in purchasing a Kindle.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
tattooed reader, 28 May 2013 @ 3:17am

really?
Ok guys lets see so with a paperback book you would be able to just walk in and take it from the store because you have a copy somewhere else? The ebook doesnt disappear its downloaded to your deviceuntil yiu remove it no limit or drm ... yhe issues you are all fussing over doesn't come up until you have deleted the book and are trying to re download. Still way more convenient than traditional books and you library is easy to carry and access wherever you go. Oh my god you have to have a current card on file that is never charged anything unless you make a purchase how terrible.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ryan Ferguson, 28 May 2013 @ 3:20am

Re: wow, almost bought a nook!
Hmm I'm on my 4th nook habe my library available on 4 devices simultaneously and never have had any issues you dont have to re purchase anything sorry your wife was mis informed but she can read on the free nook apps available on any platform yes even fire tablets and her pc ;)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
kntaki, 3 Jun 2013 @ 9:40am

download my NOOK Book
Why do I need to enter a credit card to download my NOOK Book?

To access your protected purchases, you must have an authorized credit card on record with Barnes & Noble.com. It does not necessarily have to be the credit card you used to purchase your NOOK Book(s).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Ted bates, 22 Oct 2013 @ 11:45am

Credit card purchase of Nook EPub Ebooks
Any company using your credit card for purchase needs an up to date card and expiration date. Barnes and Noble is not the issue as they like any other merchant can't have you pay for something unless the payment you are using is current and up to date. Go online to BN.com and log in and change your card to your updated one. That's how the systmem works!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 28 Nov 2013 @ 7:11am

way to go internet
A poorly written article that offers no proof and didn't even try to contact B&N to get the other side of the story. The quotes sound shady as well, like the end user was trying to do something more than what is claimed. Everyone is losing their shit now. Typical internet BS.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Kathleen (profile), 24 May 2014 @ 3:18am

Fix for books that became unavailable after card expiration
Good Morning,

I was researching why I could read one of my books on Nook, but not on my android after I downloaded it - although I was not sure this article would explain why, it did make sense that the card expiring would make your purchases unavailable on anything other than the original purchase location. I fixed my "unavailable due to card expiration" problem with accessing my e-books, by first, renentering my credit card on file info, then archiving the book, followed by un-archiving it - I can now read it on both devices again. Just thought I would share this fix...I am a happy camper again. Grins....
[ link to this | view in thread ]
samoo, 9 Jun 2014 @ 10:52pm

free ebooks
agree, my gf make me crazy to download books thats want to read and all of them for free also !!!!!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
David Lloyd, 13 Aug 2014 @ 7:52pm

DRM is illegal, but the courts haven't noticed it yet.
Copyrights are a temporary EXCEPTION to the principle that all information belongs to the public. In addition, taking property away from another person without due process of law is illegal, regardless of what laws Congress may have passed that say otherwise, because Congress does not have authority to give a power to private corporations that Congress itself does not have. I have had entire collections of properly purchased music deleted repeatedly since DRM first started appearing. The technology STEALS the property of citizens. This action is criminal, on the part of the software companies that distribute software capable of removing the property of US citizens without the direct involvement and supervision by a court of law. I demand that every company that has ever had a part in STEALING the property of US Citizens by deleting files from machines those corporations did not own, be held accountable for their crimes facing criminal charges and class action lawsuits that will finally provide some justice for the billions of victims of these corporate crimes, by putting every one of them out of business forever.

I just lost all of the purchased music from my cell phone SD chip backup, and I'm currently investigating who to sue. I owned all of the content on that chip. I bought a new phone, and I tried to transfer my files, but only about half of my collection transferred. Then my son-in-law needed an SD chip, so I copied the contents of the chip to my computer's hard drive, verified the copy was good, and I formatted the chip. Just now, I tried to copy an album I purchased less than a year ago to my new phone, and not only is the content of that album gone, but the only file of any kind still in that SD chip backup folder, is one classical music recording. I'm sure they would have taken that too, if they could have found a way to claim "ownership" of something that's been in the public domain for over 100 years. They stole the rights to thousands of books and movies from the public when they convinced Congress to extend the period of time that special rights are allowed from the long-standing traditional 23 years (renewable once by an author or an author's family) to 99 years. That transfer of property from the public to corporations was illegal. Congress did not have authority to take property from the public in that way, especially just to give it to private internationally held corporations. I demand Congress return all of the property they stole from the public. Again, I state copyrights are a TEMPORARY EXCEPTION to the legal principle that all information belongs to the public. (That's why our public library system was created: to prevent copyright considerations from interfering with the public's more important and basic right for free access to information.)
[ link to this | view in thread ]
davidbarcomb, 21 Nov 2014 @ 5:41pm

This is interesting
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JohnWaugh, 6 Sep 2015 @ 2:53pm

Previously PAID for books removed
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JohnWaugh, 6 Sep 2015 @ 2:53pm

Previously PAID for books removed
[ link to this | view in thread ]
JohnWaugh, 6 Sep 2015 @ 2:53pm

Previously PAID for books remove
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Author, 10 Jan 2016 @ 5:18pm

DMR
when you are the author, songwriter, musician, filmmaker, DMR is not stupid.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
TinyDancer, 7 Jul 2016 @ 12:08pm

Lost ebooks
I just tried to open a book that I purchased/downloaded in 2012 on my Nook and it will not release it without a credit card number. I am furious. I paid for the BOOK, it should be mine forever as a physical book would be. I emailed B&N and have not heard back. I am an avid reader and have several books I want to download to read BUT I am not going to purchase one more book from them if I find out I have been blocked from my purchases.
[ link to this | view in thread ]