MTP's David Gregory Does Journalism, Some Citizens Want His Arrest
from the welcome-to-the-stupid-show dept
The ripple effects from the Sandy Hook tragedy continue to present themselves. When something so horrific occurs, it's not difficult to understand over-the-top reactions, but that doesn't mean those reactions shouldn't be kept in check. We had folks rushing to blame videogames for what happened, despite all evidence to the contrary. We even saw how social media and media-media combined to rush to judgement on the wrong suspect and the wrong related Facebook "likes". Now, one new ripple is that David Gregory is under investigation.The moderator of Meet The Press found himself the subject of a D.C. Metro PD inquiry over his prop use of high-capacity rifle magazines during an interview with an NRA representative. The inquiry being one thing, there's also a completely misguided White House petition floating around asking for the immediate arrest of Gregory.
David Gregory is not above the law; he is a journalist, and must be held accountable to the same law as every other person.I admit, it's difficult to know where to begin. Let's start with MTP's use of the magazines as props. It turns out that the show's producers might make the dean's list for dumb this year. They did indeed get permission to use the props on the show, but they only got permission from the ATF, not local law enforcement, where those magazines are illegal. Stupid, but that kind of thing happens in show business, I suppose.
DC High Capacity Ammunition Magazines - D.C. Official Code 7-2506.01 (b) No person in the District shall possess, sell, or transfer any large capacity ammunition feeding device regardless of whether the device is attached to a firearm. For the purposes of this subsection, the term large capacity ammunition feeding device means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition.
We The People demand that he be formally charged for violation of this law on "Meet The Press."
Now, dealing with the petition itself. It's just pickles that someone from Boise, Idaho is so whole-heartedly concerned with Metro D.C. gun laws that they need to start a petition to get the White House involved. Either that, or people are having more of those over-the-top reactions to a tragedy I mentioned earlier. Not to mention, as the linked article notes, attempting to get the Obama administration involved in any of this is simply futile.
The drive to lock Gregory up still needs about 15,000 signers, but in the mean time, let's clear this up. Although the White House could certainly apply political pressure to the D.C. government, it has no direct purview over the Metropolitan Police Department's investigations. To boot, Gregory held up the magazine as an example of the kind of ammunition used in the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newton, Conn., and in the wake of that carnage, President Obama has moved toward making gun control a key issue in his second term. So, yeah, demanding that the White House clap David Gregory in irons is kind of dumb. Let's instead focus on the real villains, like CNN blabber Piers Morgan. A petition calling for his deportation back to the United Kingdom has garnered more than 82,000 signatures.Now there's a petition I can get behind.
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Filed Under: david gregory, free speech, guns, journalism
Companies: nra
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On the other hand, we can fucking tune to another channel, and get his show shitcanned due to low viewership...
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Says the guy who thinks criticism is only allowed for... who exactly? And better tone down on the rhetoric, "attack" is laughable.
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This one is easy
You don't enforce the law just because it's the law. You enforce the law because it fulfills the purpose of the law. And you don't enforce the law when it's stupid to do so.
Did David Gregory (or really the producers or assistants who got the clip for him) acquire the clip for illegal purposes? No? They even filmed a sequence of the show and used it as an illustrative device? Wow, doesn't sound like David Gregory or anyone on his show violated the spirit of the law.
The blind, equal application of the law only works if the law is written with a thousand caveats that no law enforcement officer could remember, much less apply in the course of his duties without a lawyer present, and even that's iffy.
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Re: This one is easy
I'm concerned about fairness, and that one side doesn't get a pass that the other side wouldn't get.
That said, they probably should let him off with a warning, or slap on the wrist at worst. Contacting the ATF did show a good faith attempt to comply with the law, even if that attempt failed. (If you contact the IRS and they give you bad tax advice, you are still financially liable for your own return and may later have to pay back taxes and even interest, but you likely won't get thrown in jail for tax evasion.)
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Re: Re: This one is easy
1. NRA rep says "We have decided that the Government should legislate as we really don't need to have 30 bullets in one clip when we are hunting deer".
2. NRA rep says "what? Bullets don't kill people, look I have 30 bullets in this clip and no one is dead, it is people that kill people".
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If the government can selectively enforce laws based on the political viewpoints of those potentially violating them, the first amendment may as well not exist.
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It's not the political viewpoint that is important. It's the intent and the use.
Waving an illegal clip around to make a point is significantly different than buying an illegal clip for use in a gun.
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Having C4 explosives is dangerous regardless of why you possess it, so that analogy doesn't work.
Having a clip without a gun is harmless. A clip without a gun (or even bullets) can't go off accidentally. Explosives can.
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Ha ha. What country do you live in, with such a reasonable police and judicial system? Certainly not America: http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/guns/2012/may/14/miller-injured-vets-guns-stolen-dc/
Nor the UK: http://www.prisonplanet.com/man-arrested-faces-5-years-in-jail-for-reporting-firearm-to-police.html
Did David Gregory (or really the producers or assistants who got the clip for him) acquire the clip for illegal purposes? No?
The law contains no provision that the prohibited items be used for illegal purposes. Mere possession of the item is, in and of itself, an illegal act. And, for the record, I think that's stupid, and I disagree with that law. But it's undeniably clear that, assuming the magazine was real and not a "dummy" prop (empty sheet metal, for example), Gregory broke the law. And the reason I'm crying "hypocrisy" on Gregory even though I don't agree with the law is that, if I was in DC, and I was stopped for a traffic violation, and the officer saw the same magazine on my passenger seat, I would get ZERO leeway because it was "for educational purposes" or what have you. Gregory is only getting as much leeway as he is getting because he is famous, which highlights the "laws for Us and laws for Them" nature of American justice.
It has been reported that the producers asked the DC police for permission and had it denied. If that's true, then someone willingly broke the law.
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> evenly in every scenario, but that makes them lawfully
> stupid, which is tantamount to evil in my opinion.
Wow, so equal application of the law to all citizens is evil?
Yikes.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: This one is easy
So, the above comment seems to be simply pointing this out - while the same law has technically been broken by the guy with the magazine on his front seat and the guy using a prop to illustrate a point on national television, they are clearly different circumstances that need to be treated as such (even if the end judgement turned out to be the same).
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> in the face, and I should be punished if I do so unprovoked.
> But, if said punch is thrown in self defence or to stop
> another crime, then it would be wrong for me to be stuck
> with assault charges,
That's because the law specifically allows for self defense. It does not allow for possession of a high-cap mag for purposes of a television show.
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We have laws that allow for self defense because that comes up a lot, so it's an obviously necessary exception, but it's impossible to have laws that account for every exceptional circumstance that may arise. It's impossible to predict what those exceptions would need to be in every scenario. And it would be morally bad to simply enforce the law as written if the purpose of the law is not being fulfilled in its enforcement.
The purpose of the banning of the possession of a high capacity magazine is to prevent people from using them in a weapon, more specifically, to kill multiple innocent people.
If a reporter possesses such a magazine, but not a gun to use it in, and not for the purpose of using it at all, and not for the purpose of killing people, and not for the purpose of killing innocent people, then the purpose of the law (preventing the deaths of multiple innocent people by guns with high capacity magazines) is not served by charging the reporter for that possession.
Certainly confiscate it. Certainly give him a warning. But the people calling for his arrest and prosecution are doing so out of either political spite or lawfully stupid motivations.
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What if he or the station don't own that magazine? What if they obtained it legally from a gun owner IN ANOTHER STATE, where it's legal to own such a thing?
And what if the magazine is now back in the hands of the legal owner? Where does that "law" stand now?
IMHO, on pretty shaky ground.
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> exceptions would need to be in every scenario.
There ARE NO exceptions when it comes to hi-cap mags in DC. Unless you're in law enforcement (which is provided for in the law), you're not allowed to possess them FOR ANY REASON. Doing a TV show isn't an exception. It's a prohibited use.
You may not agree with such an overly strict law-- I certainly don't-- but it *is* the law, and media people have to obey the law just like everyone else. At least theoretically, if not in apparent practice.
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Re: This one is easy
Unfortunately, there are sometimes "mandatory minimums" and somesuch that prevent them from exercising common sense upon the law. In which case Gregory should go to jail/be fined as an example of the stupidity of unnecessarily strict laws, and be proud that his unjust punishment will spur politicians to get the law changed.
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Re: This one is easy
> got the clip for him) acquire the clip for illegal purposes?
First, it's not a clip, it's a magazine, and no, they're not the same thing.
Second, it doesn't matter why they acquired and possessed the magazine. Doing so for ANY REASON is a crime in DC, and DC has a zero tolerance policy on such things. If they would lock up Joe Citizen for it (and they would), then Gregory shouldn't be treated any differently. Zero tolerance is zero tolerance.
A lot of otherwise innocent people-- hunters from Virginia and Maryland,
for example, who inadvertently leave a shotgun shell rattling around their
floorboards** when they drive into DC to work after a weekend out in the woods-- have been caught up by the rigid and mindless enforcement of these idiotic laws and had their lives ruined, and no one says boo about it, but the moment a big time liberal member of the media elite runs afoul of the same law, suddenly it's pooh-pooh, don't be silly, he didn't mean any harm.
Didn't Mike run an article at some point in the last year about our two-tier justice system? High and low court or something like that? Well, here you have a prime example.
Average Joes have been victimized for years by these idiotic laws. There's
no reason Gregory should get a pass for *intentionally* violating them just
because he's a pro-gun control celebrity. Is it silly to arrest him for just having an empty mag in his hand on his TV set? Sure. But no more silly than the hundreds of other arrests that have occurred to no-name people just going about their lives that no one ever heard about. If we're going to have these stupid laws, and if we're going to engage in that zero tolerance idiocy when enforcing them, then everyone should be subject to it equally. If that means Gregory has to take one for the team and serve some time to wake people up to this crap, then so be it.
**Yes, until recently possession of even one bullet in DC was a crime.
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You are Assuming That There Actually Was A Magazine.
As yet, there don't seem to be anything more than unconfirmed rumors. Accounts seem confused, and they include claims that the Washington Metro Police Department told NBC what it could _show_ on television. Obviously, that is incorrect. If NBC chooses to film a segment in Virginia or Maryland, and avoid bringing contraband materials into the District, for example, that is none of the Washington Metro Police Department's business.
http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/cops-nbc-told-dont-use-gun-clip-85497.html#ixzz2G Bpyl8k7
http://www.politico.com/story/2012/12/cops-probe-nbc-gregory-on-gun-clip-85481.html?hp=f2
http://www.politico.com/blogs/politico-live/2012/12/nra-wont-back-cut-in-bullet-capacity-ceo-says-15 2703.html
An obvious question which arises is, how would the studio get a real magazine. They couldn't just order one through the usual theatrical supply channels. If they tried to get a police permit to buy something, and were turned down, their reflex response would not be to get it through black market channels, but to make a fake. The occupational hazard of television newsmen is that they are really actors, and now and again, they forget that they are supposed to be journalists, and start faking things, using all the standard tricks of the theater and movie studio. That is much more plausible than their having a black-market weapons connection.
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Re: You are Assuming That There Actually Was A Magazine.
He said it was on air. He confessed to the crime on national television.
> An obvious question which arises is, how would the studio
> get a real magazine. They couldn't just order one through
> the usual theatrical supply channels.
Actually, the could. The magazines that shoot blanks in Rambo movies are the same as the ones that shoot real rounds.
> That is much more plausible than their having a black-market
> weapons connection.
And even more plausible is that they just had one delivered from one of the neighboring states where they're not illegal.
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Re: Re: You are Assuming That There Actually Was A Magazine.
Look at it this way, a halfway decent props man does a quick Google search, pulls down and prints off some pictures; and then he takes a block of wood, say a chunk of two-by-four, cuts it down to rough dimensions with a radial-arm saw, and then begins sculpting it with a Dremel Moto-Tool, slaps on some suitable paint, and he's got a faux magazine good enough for the TV host to wave around, in maybe half an hour, which is probably faster than a courier service can deliver from Northern Virginia. And that's quite apart from the time spent finding a reputable gun dealer willing to ship across state lines without the paperwork being in order. When people find themselves in difficulties, they fall back on their core skills, and these people are craftsmen, not drug dealers.
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(*) This is not the same situation as that applying to construction tradesmen. Construction tradesmen can get paid to make useful objects-- buildings-- through craft methods, rather than mass-production. For someone who makes, say, furniture, the situation is much more difficult, because mass-produced furniture can be imported from China. And the same thing applies even more forcibly to things which are smaller and lighter. Very often, theatrical backstage work, of one kind or another, represents an opportunity to do craftsmanship at a level which is not required anywhere else for a given class of objects. This includes tailoring/dressmaking/costume, jewelry, metal-smithing, musical-instrument-making, pottery and glassmaking, armoring, cabinet-making, hair styling, makeup, etc. Even an automobile stylist gets to make extravagant things like "bat-mobiles" on the stage, which are non-starters in the real-automobile business. Read the two Star Trek memoirs (Gen Roddenberry and Stephen Whitfield, _The Making of Star Trek_, 1968; and David Gerrold, _The World of Star Trek: The Show The Network Could Not Kill_, 1973) to get an idea of what backstage culture is like. Again, there is no direct evidence about where the "magazine" came from, but, as I see it, in terms of external appearance, a magazine is just a box, with a few details added. You don't have to carry out the internal spring, or anything like that. As a design project, it is extremely minimal.
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Re: Re: This one is easy
David Gregory shouldn't be prosecuted and neither should any other citizen if it can be shown (as Gregory can with the footage from his show) that his possession was not in violation of the spirit of the law.
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Re: Re: Re: This one is easy
> neither should any other citizen if it can
> be shown (as Gregory can with the footage
> from his show) that his possession was not
> in violation of the spirit of the law.
And yet every other citizen *would* be prosecuted for the equally innocent possession of such an object. So if we're going to be prosecuting them, Gregory shouldn't get a pass.
As for the spirit of the law, the intent of the people who wrote the law and passed it is clear: possession of those magazines is prohibited without exception, for any reason, by anyone who is not law enforcement, regardless of whether they have a gun at hand in which it can be used.
The 'spirit' of the law is to ban them completely, and Gregory's behavior surely did violate that spirit.
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not more over the top than usual
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Re: not more over the top than usual
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What about "Zero Tolerance"
It's very simple. If he were anyone other than David Gregory, he'd already be in jail.
DC's code doesn't have a "David Gregory" or "Press" exception. Possession if prohibited. If you pick it up off the ground, you go to jail, it's that simple.
Even worse, the whole point of Gregory's stunt was to advocate that "large-capacity" magazines should be illegal. So he was willfully violating the law he advocates.
This enrages all freedom loving people who only want the law to be enforced fairly for all. No special privileges for the press.
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Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
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Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
No, it is NOT that simple. If you picked up contraband off the street and right away turned it in to authorities, they probably aren't going to arrest you. That would be silly. Especially if it's something like an ammo clip which is only dangerous in conjunction with a gun.
"So he was willfully violating the law he advocates."
That is demonstrably false. He sought permission, albeit from the wrong authorities.
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Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
"Land of the FEE, Home of the SLAVE"
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Re: Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
I'm going to use this phase elsewhere ... if you don't mind.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
I'm laying claim to that as mine, since Anonymous Coward cannot because (s)he is anonymous.
And anyone who uses it, use pay me a small licensing fee. 25˘ sounds good.
Now start coughing up those quarters....
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Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
http://www.prisonplanet.com/man-arrested-faces-5-years-in-jail-for-reporting-firearm-to-polic e.html
Whoops.
That is demonstrably false. He sought permission, albeit from the wrong authorities.
Funny. I called the DMV and asked them if it was okay to speed on the highway, and the person I talked to said yes, but somehow, the officer who arrested me didn't get the memo. Also: It has been reported that the producers asked the DC police for permission and had it denied. So the ATF said yes and the DC police said no.
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Re: Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
Ah. That changes things. If he asked DC police and they said no, he should be prosecuted. Although, given that his intent was only to make a point on a TV show, he should still only get near the minimum sentence.
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Of course, if you apply the "captain of the ship" principle... the producers are the ones who should go to jail, because they are the ones who TOLD him to hold that prop up...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
Maybe if it were a federal law, but this was a local law. The ATF does not have veto power over the city police's enforcement of gun laws.
"Of course, if you apply the "captain of the ship" principle... the producers are the ones who should go to jail, because they are the ones who TOLD him to hold that prop up..."
I don't know DC law, so I'm not sure if inducement of possession is listed as an actual crime. But even if it is, the guy is still responsible for his own actions, regardless of what his producers told him to do.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
At some point, those that give the orders need to face the music, too, ESPECIALLY when they give orders they KNOW lead to an illegal act.
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Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
Second, look at any of the number of people arrested a JFK or La Guardia airports. The airlines can legally transport a weapon through those airports on your behalf. However, if you take possession of the weapon for any reason (say, you missed your connection and the carrier handed your luggage), and then you hand the weapon back in to be checked, you are arrested and immediately jailed (this happens quite frequently).
Third - Gregory's producers, at least, knew enough about the illegality to check with not 1 but 2 different authorities - DC Metro Police and ATF.
Fourth, Gregory was advocating to ban high-capacity magazines. Thus, he was willfully violating at least the proposed law.
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Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
> from the wrong authorities.
It's not false. They asked both the ATF and the DC police. The ATF told them it was fine (they were wrong and didn't have jurisdiction anyway) and the DC police told them it was prohibited.
They chose to go ahead and do it anyway.
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Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
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Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
We all agree David Gregory should NOT be prosecuted, and the law should be struck down as a violation of the Secondment Amendment just like every other DC anti-gun law, but we also think he and his management need to be publicly raked over the coals for violating one of the gun-control laws they advocate in the name of more gun control. Signing the petition is our way of doing that.
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Re: Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
That's not the impression I'm getting from some a of the comments here.
"...and the law should be struck down as a violation of the Secondment Amendment..."
Can you point to the section of the Second Amendment that discusses high-capacity magazines? Did they even have magazines in 1791? Don't think so.
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Re: What about "Zero Tolerance"
> advocate that "large-capacity" magazines should be
> illegal. So he was willfully violating the law he advocates.
And proving that those laws are useless. After all, if the DC law didn't prevent him from obtaining one, why does he believe that it will stop some psychopathic, drug-dealing, gang-banging barbarian from obtaining one?
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Please, Please, Please, Please, Please DO NOT deport Piers Morgan back to the UK.
Regards,
The Population of the United Kingdom.
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(By the way, NBC did contact DC police for permission and that permission was refused. They pulled this stunt knowing it was illegal.)
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It was a joke...
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Sincerely,
The rest of the internet.
PS: Fuck you, and the horse you rode in on, wait, no I'm sure he is a fine fellow he can stay.
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Yeah, it kinda was.
Lighten up, Francis.
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Now, the real question is, to where do we deport all our Congresscritters who have violated their oath of office to obey and defend the Constitution? And which country would want to take them?
:-)
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So Gregory & Morgan should both be prosecuted?
And if they want their expansive (and imo ridiculous) theory of Second Amendment rights to profit from people-killing weapons, and their (far more defensible) free speech rights to advocate their theory (in the face of most Americans' disgust), shouldn't they respect Morgan's own rights to free speech under the First Amendment, even if they disagree with what he says? Their own petition accuses him of attacking the Bill of Rights yet they want the First Amendment only to apply to themselves, not those they disagree with.
(I'm no fan of Morgan, who like John Lott and Larry Pratt of the Gun Owners of America (the interviewees whom Morgan insulted, see http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/morgan-rips-gun-nut-pratt-youre-unbe ) seems a thoroughly repellent human being. With any justice he'll be indicted in Britain for phone hacking soon.)
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Re: So Gregory & Morgan should both be prosecuted?
> want to prosecute Gregory for showing a prop that they want
> the right to own themselves without regulation?
"I don't like the law, but if it's going to be enforced at all, then
I want it to be enforced equally" doesn't strike me as inconsistent.
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Unless of course they were lying when they pulled that stunt and sidestepped Dodd admitting he bought laws and people demanded an investigation.
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This petition would get everyone in government arrested
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The law is for the little people
Nevermind that the law does give a "journalism" exception (Or any exception for that matter); David Gregory did a "heroic" thing and should not be punished.
Mr Geigner: will you be telling the peasants to eat cake next?
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Re: The law is for the little people
Sincerely,
Timothy "TIMMAY!" Geithner.
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Freedom of only the press
Further, anyone who knows anything about DC's laws and the Metropolitan police know that there is ZERO TOLERANCE for gun infractions and that all of them are non-intent crimes... which means it doesn't matter why you broke the law or if you knew you were breaking the law, it's still a felony and you still go to jail. Sometimes for weeks, in the case of our military members who make mistakes (like leaving bullets in their bags coming back from deployment!).
Seeing a smirking guy hold up a prohibited item on TV while in the same breath talking about how nobody should be able to have them... almost makes it worth the cost of arresting him. But I guess I would be happy with the maximum fine.
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Freedom
As Obama has circumvented congress and the American people to legislate by fiat, I can't wait to see how he will use Executive Powers to do it again for gun owners. And it will ONLY be the good people that lose their guns as we know how well thugs follow the law. Didn't we eliminate all illegal drug sales by more laws??
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