Blowback From Publication Of Gun Owner Data Continues -- Threats, Lawsuits And Rejected FOIA Requests
from the men-with-guns-protecting-journalists-from-men-with-guns dept
The battle over the privacy of gun owners continues in New York. Last week, the Lower Hudson Valley Journal News secured the names and addresses of gun owners in two New York counties, publishing the information as an interactive map and framing the "story" as a public service -- information people would "want" to have following the Connecticut school shooting.Needless to say, this drew the ire of gun owners, along with others who felt the Journal News had crossed a line by publishing this personal information. In response, the names and addresses of various Journal News personnel were posted and the paper found itself dealing with angry phone calls and comments, along with anonymous threats and mail coated with a mysterious (but apparently, non-toxic) white powder.
Somewhat ironically, the Journal News has now hired armed security guards to protect its business and employees.
The Journal News of West Nyack, N.Y., has hired armed security guards to defend its offices after receiving a torrent of phone calls and emails responding to the paper's publication of the names and addresses of area residents with pistol permits.Now, the paper is finding itself stymied by public officials in its search for more gun owner data. Putnam County officials have announced that they will refuse the Journal News' FOIA request, which it had begun compiling before the backlash began. After receiving an "onslaught" of calls demanding that the county not release the data, Putnam County Executive, MaryEllen Odell, has decided to withhold the requested information, earning an ally in State Senator Greg Ball.
RGA Investigations, a private security company, "is doing private security at on location at the Journal News as a result of the negative response to the article," according to a police report first obtained by the Rockland County Times (Nanuet, N.Y.) and shared with POLITICO. The guards "are armed and will be on site during business hours through at least January 2, 2013."
"I'm proud to stand with Putnam County and proud that Putnam won't be releasing its pistol permit records," [Ball] said in a statement. "The asinine editors at the Journal News have gone out of their way to place a virtual scarlet letter on law abiding firearm owners throughout the region and I thank God that Putnam County has a clerk with the guts to stand up and draw the line here."Ball has also stated that he will introduce legislation to restrict gun permit information to prosecutors and police. A public press conference is scheduled to announce this refusal, but there's a good chance this move won't stand up in court, should the battle head in that direction.
[Putnam County Clerk Dennis] Sant said he was happy to protect law-abiding gun owners in his county.
"There is the rule of law, and there is right and wrong, and The Journal News is clearly wrong," he said in a statement. "I could not live with myself if one Putnam pistol permit holder was put in harm's way, for the sole purpose of selling newspapers."
Putnam County officials, who say they will refuse a newspaper's request to release the names and addresses of residents with pistol permits, would break state law by withholding the data, a state official said.The Journal News will likely appeal the denial, which would then be heard by the Putnam County government. A second denial would route it to a judge for a formal decision. In the meantime, the Journal News is sticking to its proverbial guns, claiming the info dump was in the public interest.
The opinion, of state Committee on Open Government Executive Director Robert Freeman, came after an announcement Tuesday by state Sen. Greg Ball and two Putnam officials that they would refuse to release the data requested by The Journal News of White Plains, which sought the records under the state Freedom of Information Law
Freeman said, the law is clear. "The name and address of any gun licensee are public," he said.
In other bad news for the paper, it has just been named in a defamation lawsuit filed by a local business, which claims that the Journal News piece which named it as a gun owner caused "customers and clients of First Impression LLC to cease doing business, causing damages in amount to be determined."
The filing runs only two pages but is loaded with adjectives.
The two-page, bare-bones Summons With Notice accuses the newspaper of "falsely, maliciously, recklessly, slanderously, libelously and irresponsibly publicly stating in the interactive website www.lohud.com that plaintiff First Impression LLC is a licensed handgun owner."So, it looks as if the future holds quite a bit of court time for the Journal News. It also looks like this fight over gun owner data isn't going to end anytime soon.
The thorny question still remains: did the Journal News have the right to publish gun ownership? Certainly, the First Amendment grants it the freedom and the fact that the information was gained through legal channels seems to make that "right" argument unassailable. The Journal News was well within its rights to post the information, no matter how irresponsible its use of the information was.
Unfortunately, the many people who opposed the Journal News' actions (which includes people on both sides of the gun control debate) have been vocal enough that government agencies are beginning to arbitrarily withhold requested information, stating a sudden (and unlikely) concern for protecting the privacy of gun owners -- whose permits are a matter of public record. Allowing government agencies to reject FOIA requests because they don't like how the information is being used or are worried about public response is a big step in a very wrong direction. Even worse, grandstanders like Sen. Ball are looking to further restrict the dissemination of information by limiting access to gun ownership data to prosecutors and police. Even if this particular restriction seems logical, the simple fact is once this protection is granted for certain data, the system is opened to abuse by other entities and agencies looking to keep as much info as possible under wraps. This will result in more restrictions and limitations and less actual freedom of information.
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Filed Under: data, guns, journal register, journalism, ownership, public information, transparency
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In Florida
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Just one step away from being on the 6 o'clock news themselves.
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mental
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But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
You MUST own a gun - it's the law!: "KENNESAW, Ga - Several Kennesaw officials attribute a drop in crime in the city over the past two decades to a law that requires residents to have a gun in the house.
In 1982, the Kennesaw City Council unanimously passed a law requiring heads of households to own at least one firearm with ammunition."
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Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
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after all, they are not taking anything physical off these people, is this just like copyright, if you take / steel a song, you are not taking anything physical off them, so no harm done.
Don't you play the "name and shame" game all the time masnick, I have seen you post many articles where you list a bunch of people who did or did not do something !!!
Is this the new double standards for you Masnick ?
Ahh, I See, it's ok for you to do that kind of thing, but you also like the fact that when you feel it's ok that Governments will seek to censor people and 'hide' this information.
Which after all, SHOULD be made available, who owns a gun in your street is important information, it's free speech.
So have you always been two faced Mr Masnick ?
Are the people who own guns feeling shame, are they ashamed that they own guns, and if not, WHY are they worried if their names are made public ?
Why are you supporting Government censorship Masnick..
I thought you put yourself up as the champion of the world when it comes to these issues..
Seems that is not true, you are only a champion when YOU are affected, any other time you simply don't care..
I thought you had ideals, I thought you wanted to use this web page to promote and support those ideals.
So why have you switched camps ?
So now your on the other side, you've changed sides (I guess you'll change back soon)..
It's not a good look Masnick.
It's sickening that you will accept or reject Government censorship, and sell out your ideals when it suits you....
oh well at least your readers (and rabid fanbois) have short memories.
They will forget, but most will remember the real reasons why your here, to server yourself..
But at least we know you have no real goals, no ambition, or solid attitudes to issues..
But if you can sell a few more T-shirts and crystal balls, selling out to your fans is all worth it..
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Re: mental
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That statement really bothers me. A state senator proudly standing by as a FOIA request is denied. I'm sure many can rally around him because gun control is polarizing, but a state senator should be forcing compliance with laws.
Sure, this time it's holding back a list of private gun owners, but next time it could be info on surveillance drones or which members of the UN Hillary Clinton wants investigated.
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Of course that was towards the end. Perhaps you didn't get all the way down there before writing this comment ?
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Except you are taking something from them: their privacy, and quite possibly their safety.
The rest of your rant is just crazy-talk. Maybe in the interest of the safety of your neighbors, Mike should publish your email/IP address.
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Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Cowards don't like being publicly outed as cowards.
And if they're not cowards, absent a threat (which the paper has got) then why do they feel the need to own a gun, as if they were about to be under seige?
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No matter which side of the gun control issue you fall on, you have to recognize these people are huge hypocrites for hiding behind guns while calling out others for owning them.
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
That's why the "everyone needs to be armed" talk makes me nervous. If everyone feels they need to be armed either (1) they feel unduly threatened or (2) the country really is that dangerous and it's time we either stay inside to avoid all the threats or move to another country.
If my safety depends on carrying a gun, it's not a place I want to be out and about in. I don't plan to move to another country, but I will avoid going to places where everyone is armed because that implies you can't trust anyone around you and you need to be on guard constantly. That takes too much energy. If there are potential threats everywhere, I'll lessen my exposure to them. It's easier than feeling like I might need to pull out a gun at any minute.
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I personally disagree with him on that point, so my complaint is the opposite of yours. I have no issue with the FOIA, but I do have an issue with irresponsible use of said data. I believe the Journal's act was simply to get publicity and to sell papers.
Having lived in NYC for many years, I know how difficult it is to get a CCW. I my current home state, it was not that difficult, and I am a proud, law-abiding gun owner, and a firm believer in the 2nd Amendment.
I was also pained by the tragic event in CT, and am disgusted that someone could do something so horrible. However, that has not changed my mind about the 2nd amendment, nor have I even given a thought to giving up my guns.
I feel that the Journal's attempt to vilify law abiding gun owners was completely pointless, and was designed to play to the fear that many Americans now have about guns. The fact that they are completely ignoring is that someone pulled the trigger. Had the perpetrator of the act in CT used a baseball bat or an axe, I doubt the Journal would have created a map of all homes where baseball bats or axes are owned, because that wouldn't sell ink-stained paper.
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Have a happy day!
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"The Journal News was well within its rights to post the information, no matter how irresponsible its use of the information was.
Unfortunately, the many people who opposed the Journal News' actions (which includes people on both sides of the gun control debate) have been vocal enough that government agencies are beginning to arbitrarily withhold requested information, stating a sudden (and unlikely) concern for protecting the privacy of gun owners -- whose permits are a matter of public record."
Not entirely sure where I stand on this per say but, I do however stand by the notion that transparency is as transparency does.
More good than harm comes from transparency and truth. Don't want folks to know you own a gun? Don't fucking buy one.
This information is public record. Don't get yer panties in a wad because some geek knows how to drop a spread sheet into Google maps.
Nigel
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Why don't you do all of us a favor and cite even one study that backs up this assertion.
We'll wait.
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Security Guards armed with the exact same "Assault Weapons Of War" that the Journal News is against.
The so called "threats" according to the local police are not actionable under the law.
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Congratulations!
You just staged a clear demonstration of why some people (e.g., the state of Arizona) believe there should be no registration requirement to own or carry a gun.
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Re:
Reading comprehension: -2/10 (2 points deducted for getting post author's name wrong.)
Period/ellipsis usage: 4.0848583e+17/10
Notes: While AC's enthusiasm for discussion is to be admired, his grasp of the subject matter and, indeed, other minor but important details, needs improvement.
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Re: Re:
I personally disagree with him on that point, so my complaint is the opposite of yours. I have no issue with the FOIA, but I do have an issue with irresponsible use of said data. I believe the Journal's act was simply to get publicity and to sell papers.
I disagree with how the information was used and how the paper chose to frame its info dump, but like it or not, it was well within its rights. The danger I see is that the paper's actions will result in greater stifling of information at the hands of the government, above and beyond any damage it caused to the reputation/safety of gun owners by posting the information.
Despite how I feel about the paper's actions, the last thing I want to see is it being pointed to as an example of "too much freedom" by politicians with the power to restrict information that should be publicly available. The newspaper was well within its rights to publish the date. Being "within your rights" is very definitely not the same thing as "being right," as the Journal News actions have proven.
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
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Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
It is an open invitation to thieves. Want a gun? Just wait for everyone to leave at 12345 easy stolen handguns way,somewhere USA. Then break in and take all the guns and ammo you can carry.
Publishing the information puts my family and my property at risk!
A newspaper putting the information online is much different than the information being available at a courthouse.
I would welcome them to break in while I am at home. I am pretty sure they wouldn't be leaving on foot.
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
That Newspaper has really crossed the line.It was wrong of them and in really bad taste to do what they have done.
Watch this Paper go down rather quickly !
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In my personal view, Illinois actually got that one right -- it's information that does not need to be public.
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"stating a sudden (and unlikely) concern for protecting the privacy of gun owners -- whose permits are a matter of public record."
I disagree with this sentiment. having to register a firearm is a compromise to the second amendment of the constitution one I and even the NRA agree with but just because the government is requiring you to register a firearm so that it can then better keep the peace, does not make this information public. this act would be like the paper being able to request and get all the social security numbers or sexual orientation of every citizen then publish it. foia request are to facilitate government transparency not to violate the privacy of citizens. this type of information should only be available with a warrant or subpena just like everything else in the ever shrinking domain of what is considered private. the government is not entitled to privacy its citizens are!
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Adjectives vs. adverbs? :-)
I presume you're talking about the surfeit of adverbs?
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Re: Re:
Well the first problem with your 'logic' is that if I don't purchase a firearm I won't own one will I?
However, what you have really said is "If you don't want your name and address published, please feel free to by a weapon off the street and unregistered."
That will help secure hand guns and ensure that only responsible people own weapons. Well, maybe not!
Then of course the other side of it is that by publishing the name and address information of legitimate gun owners you tell the thieves where to find a cache of weapons and ammo. Thus allowing those who do not complete background checks (and even training in many states) to obtain weapons that will almost certainly end up being used for crime.
Brilliant idea you have there.
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Publishing the information puts my family and my property at risk!
I'm actually in favor of protecting people's privacy, which is why I want more limits on what private companies can collect about people.
What I wanted to point out in this thread that if having a gun is a deterrent to crime, then letting people know you have a gun is supposed to be a deterrent as well. Therefore, you shouldn't be at risk.
But I don't really buy the idea that having a gun makes you safer and I don't really believe everyone should have guns, so I can see why people who own guns are afraid that they are at risk if people know they have guns. Guns can attract risk rather than deter it.
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The moment they publicly provided that information, they ceased being journalists and crossed the line ...
This is also going to result in an increased crime wave in new York City as criminals start targeting these gun owners and breaking into their homes while they are not there. It will also result in an increased murder rate.
These gun owners were not criminal and this was nothing more than a political statement designed by the owners and editors of this newspaper to "shame" them and embarrass them.
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But this goes against one of the reasons people are encouraged to get guns -- that they are safer with them.
The gun industry has not been telling people to get guns and keep them a secret so they won't get stolen.
If your house is at risk of being broken into because you own a gun, what does that say about the risks of owning guns?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Things get more complicated though when you take randomness and uncertainty out of the equation. A criminal who is looking for something specific, or knows for certain what they can get from a place and the risks involved, the likeliness of things change.
A criminal looking for a handgun, and who knows X person has a handgun permit, and thus a handgun, is something very different from random criminals performing random crimes. Advertising this specific information is like advertising which homes have thousands of dollars in jewelry or electronics: it attracts criminals looking for guaranteed returns on their efforts.
Though, even considering all that, -I- wouldn't have been so bothered by this kind of information getting out about me. But that's coming from someone who lives in rural Indiana, where it'd be more strange to not have a gun or three, let alone be judged by people for having one, like it seems these people in NY are experiencing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
You can also find out who owns expensive cars. And you can gauge neighborhoods to guess what residents might have which is worth robbing. You can even look up how much people have paid for their homes, so you get a general idea of their incomes.
I'm open to discussions about privacy (starting with putting significant limits on what companies can collect), but the idea that people with guns are now at greater risk of being robbed goes against what the gun industry has been telling people, which is that owning a gun increases your safety. Let's just say the portrayal of gun owners as victims goes totally against the image the gun industry has been trying to sell.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
I can't disagree though that certain groups on both sides of the debate, not just the gun industry, often get hyperbolic when discussing gun ownership and gun control. I'm against gun control, but describing gun ownership as making you 'safer' without any qualifications on that statement is wrong.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
I think a big problem is that the gun industry's traditional market, hunters, has been declining, and other countries restrict gun ownership, so to keep up demand, they now try to sell more guns to US citizens for protection. That attracts a different gun owner than the ones who used to own guns primarily for hunting.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
And guns are effective tools for protection, and are often used for that very reason. But an unqualified statement that they make you safer is intellectually dishonest, as in the wrong hands, or when handled carelessly and recklessly, guns can be incredibly dangerous.
But the opposite side of the debate tends to be just as hyperbolic as the gun industry. I've seen people describe guns as doing things that realistically would take explosives to accomplish. The likelihood of being involved in a gun accident is extremely low, as is a mass shooting. And a vast majority of gun related crime takes place in dense urban centers, often in areas where there's embedded criminal culture and organized crime, and equal odds that it will involve criminals on both sides of the gun.
Both sides go to extremes to paint the issue as black and white; its not, and people shouldn't treat it that way.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Surely you are not talking about the US that has one of the biggest gun related accidents, homicides and suicides in the world.
America Is a Violent Country
In 2012 less than thousand gun fatal accidents occurred, but 12 thousand people killed each other with it.
Now we just need to compare gun ownership, with criminal activity and death rates in the maps to see how it all fits together.
Using GIS one can see that clearly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DChomicides.jpg
http://www.raidsonline.com/
https:/ /en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_mapping
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Do you have an SSN? you are screwed.
Do you ever gave a credit card to a store? you are screwed.
Do you ever got busted for anything? you are screwed.
Do you have a phone number? you are screwed.
Do you have a driver license? you are screwed.
Are you employed? you are screwed.
Are you going to complain about all those other databases too?
If you are so afraid, you should change your name. Just like any other victim of violence would probably have to do it in order to stay safe in the future.
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Re: Adjectives vs. adverbs? :-)
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
But that is not what happens is it, you own a gun, the other guy start owning a gun and doing it in larger groups, one guy with one gun will not confront 10 guys armed unless he is suicidal.
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Re: The paper is clearly using the information to instigate hate crimes.
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
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http://free-license-plate-search.org/37/
If your worry is about what databases can show about yourself, well, you will find it hard to hide anything about yourself online or otherwise from anyone, the guns owner database is the least of your concerns.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
True, but I was thinking of those who buy handguns to carry as concealed weapons.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
I have had two occasions where carrying a gun kept me from being robbed, and in one of those situations I had a knife pulled on me, and it was three on one. So, for me at least, carrying a weapon prevented two robberies and probably preserved my health in one of those incidents.
Now I am not advocating everyone carry a firearm, certainly not everyone has the right temperament to carry a weapon. However, for those who do have the right temperament, those who practice to keep their skills up, or who have had other training in firearms, carrying a weapon can certainly be a deterrent to crime.
Thieves are opportunists, they look for the easy mark, the person they believe has something of value, but won't put up too much of a fight, or at least that they will be able to overpower.
I have seen a few news stories recently where gas stations had robbery attempts and the clerk either had a weapon and shot the offender, or simply attacked the offender rather than just handing over the money.
Some would say that is stupid, and it certainly is not the least risky choice, but many robberies have shown, just because your passive and do what you are told doesn't mean you will live or not be hurt.
Bottom line is I STRONGLY disagree with your assertion that having guns attracts violence. That is like saying owning a car causes accidents. No, it really doesn't, the person driving the car is the real risk. The same is true with weapons.
I am wondering how many people you know that carry weapons, probably a lot more than you think. Certainly most of the people I work with or am social with have no idea that I am carrying two handguns. It is not something I advertise, and it shouldn't be advertised.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
As for mass murders:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of _rampage_killers:_School_massacres
Just a quick scan of wikipedia stats and entries show that mass murders are high profile, but very rare, occurances, and that they happen about as often in the Americas as they happen in Europe.
And I've seen that "America is a Violent Country" chart before. Yes we're violent, but our crime has been dropping drastically over the past 20 years, even as gun ownership has been increasing over the years. Also I don't believe any country, (save for Mexico, which was omitted from that chart) has the same history of organized crime that we do.
Heck, I believe most of all of the US cities with the highest crime and murder rates are famous to one degree or another -because- of its history of crime. Chicago is famous for prohibition era mobsters. LA for 80s drug lords. New York has been known for its criminal element going back to the 1800s.
Speaking of which, that raidsonline site is very interesting. You can practically map out city limits of many places based on the density of the crime listed in those areas. Seems to be kind of incomplete though. Either that, or places like Indianapolis have far lower crime rates than I gave them credit for. But its a good start for finding out where and why these sorts of things happen.
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I think it's more like an ethics discussion here. It was not ethical of the newspaper to publish the information. In my own opinion. They deserved the backlash (not the threats though).
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Re: Congratulations!
Oh Noes! They'll steal my car!!!!11!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Younger folks are certainly attracted to guns. Again, my nephews like to go out and shoot targets... they just don't want to kill a deer or rabbit. (Actually I think it's the dressing of the animals they don't like).
Certainly protection is a valid reason to own a weapon, though I have to admit that I don't see many ads promoting the purchase of weapons in print or over the air (gun magazines are probably the exception here). My point is, that guns aren't promoted like say alcohol or even condoms.
Guns are promoted, outside enthusiast magazines, mostly through games, which I don't think are done by the gun industry. So I don't really think the gun industry is putting a lot of advertising behind the protection aspect. Now if you walk into a gun shop and say you want a weapon for personal protection you most certainly will be shown a variety of weapons for the task at hand. However, guns are not promoted to the general public like liquor, food, drugs, or even condoms.
I believe younger people are attracted to guns because they are a symbol of power and control. Certainly, that was enticing to me at 8 years old and that was a VERY long time ago. I believe that is what my nephews are attracted to as well, though I certainly don't think any of them would ever point a weapon at another person, they have been properly trained and supervised for years..
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Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
I have owned weapons for more than 40 years and I have carried a weapon for more than 30. I can assure you that I am no coward, nor do I think I am about to be under siege! However, I have had two occasions to pull my carry weapon for self protection (though I have never had to fire it).
You obviously know nothing about people at all, least of all the average gun owner. Yes, I carry a weapon for self protection. No, I am not 'in fear' nor am I a coward. Yes, carrying a weapon has probably saved me on at least two occasions. No, I have never pulled my weapon to threaten anyone who did not already threaten me.
As the AC posted earlier:
"Why don't you do all of us a favor and cite even one study that backs up this assertion.
We'll wait."
Well, we are still waiting.
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Re: Re: Congratulations!
I hate to burst your little bubble, but thousands of cars are stolen every day. If they could be hidden in a pocket and carried with you or stored in your little 5th story NYC apartment that might not be true, but alas they can't.
On the other hand, telling thieves where they can find something they would otherwise not know about, that is far more valuable to them than a stolen car, does make my home, and my family a target.
Please let us all know when you would like to come join us at the grown up table and have a real discussion.
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Guns are the attack weapon of choice. The most obvious reason is they don't require physical interaction with the target and, to reduce contact even more, can work from a distance.
Why would attackers be worried about physical interaction? The most obvious and likely answer is that they're scared. They're scared about personal injury or they're scared about the physicality of manually inflicting an injury on another person. Either way, using a gun is far more cowardly than walking up to them and punching them in the face.
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So they tell people they need guns for defense against criminals even though most crime doesn't involve guns. Those guns get stolen, resulting in a massive black market. So now criminals do have guns. So people buy guns to protect themselves.
Self defeating, unless you're the gun industry.
To all those people who habitually carry firearms - would you still carry them if you didn't believe you had to? Would you carry them for the sake of carrying them?
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Sorry, that is a pathetic argument. We can debate all we like about whether or not you deserve privacy on anything you own - but claiming that your gun shouldn't be registered just because someone might FOIA you is ridiculous. Guns should be licensed/registered (even if the info is only available to law enforcement). But then, I don't buy into the gun 'religion' any more than the average Republican buys into Islam.
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Not what Mr Applegate is spinning, however...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
My father owned guns, served on the front lines in Vietnam, and earned a bronze star. He also saved my son from drowning at clear risk to himself and worked tirelessly to feed the homeless every year.
You can shove your bigoted "coward" argument up your dumb, ignorant ass.
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Look, it's one thing to not like guns and the people who use them in violent attacks against others. But, to denigrate an entire population of people as cowards, for doing nothing more than legally owning a gun, is asinine.
This particular commenter used this same argument (cowardice) in the comments on another article. It was just as ridiculous then as it is now.
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I do not see any great push by the gun industry as a whole to tell you you need a weapon for self protection. Please cite valid research to back up your claim. For the most part the 'gun industry' targets gun enthusiasts, it doesn't market guns to the general public, like say alcohol, drugs or even condoms are.
"To all those people who habitually carry firearms - would you still carry them if you didn't believe you had to? Would you carry them for the sake of carrying them?"
I don't believe I 'have to'. But as stated elsewhere due to a previous job and after carrying a weapon for more than 30 years I have had two occasions to pull my carry weapon for personal protection.
So the answer to your question is: I don't believe I 'have' to carry a gun. I most certainly will carry a gun, just like I carry a wallet, cash, knife, keys... I have carried for more than 30 years, it is just like a comfortable pair of jeans. I feel odd if I don't have it. No, I don't expect I will need it, and I don't carry it with one hand on the trigger at all times. But I am prepared and it has saved me on at least two occasions over the years.
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"Well, you'd better not use a computer at home then, or a mobile phone, or thieves will know you have valuable electronic equipment!"
The point is a gun and ammo is much more valued by thieves than a computer, or a car, or a mobile phone! Therefore the information about who might have them is also more valued.
"but claiming that your gun shouldn't be registered just because someone might FOIA you "
No one ever claimed that. What was said is if you aren't going to protect the information then you will encourage people not to register their weapons. Don't be so obtuse.
I am afraid yours is the pathetic argument. "I don't buy into the gun 'religion' any more than the average Republican buys into Islam"
There is a statement that says it all, you have zero interest in facts and truth. you just want to believe whatever you do regardless of any facts. Welcome Mr. Zealot.
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I have 30+ years of life experience carrying a handgun and more than 40 years owning weapons and being an avid hunter.
Have you ever even seen a gun? Have you ever been around responsible gun owners? Do you even want to know the truth?
Let me answer for you: No, No, and No.
If you would think, for just a minute it would be blatantly obvious that publishing where the owners of weapons are puts everyone at risk.
Frankly, as far as personal protection goes, bring it on. I will shoot them when they break in, assuming of course I am at home. Of course if they wait till I leave, then break in and steal the more than 20 weapons and boxes of ammo I have in my house, that will not put me at risk, but it will certainly put hundreds of others at risk with weapons that are no longer registered to the 'owner' of the gun.
Don't call me out for spinning when I am only telling you what life experience and in fact history tells us. The fact that it is not convenient to your version of the truth does not make it any less a valid point.
You are the one without life experience or any valid cites to show you have the facts on your side. So who is spinning again?
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Not surprising
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I think you are missing the point. I am, indeed, safer carrying my weapon, as I have stated elsewhere. However, when you publish my name and address, and the fact that I am a gun owner, you are putting my family at risk, and you are also sending an invitation to criminals, want guns, look here.
They won't break in while I am at home, they will wait till the house is empty, then they will break in and steal all the guns and ammo they can carry. Of course that won't be used against me, it will be used against others who more than like do not carry firearms.
If you are at risk of having an accident because you own a car, what does that say about owning cars? Does it mean cars are dangerous and should be banned?
Believe me you are much more apt to die in a car crash than even be involved in a gun related robbery. So should we ban all cars? Perhaps we should ban public transportation too?
I carry a concealed weapon because if I don't conceal it I am breaking the law. If it weren't against the law my weapon would be holstered just like a police officer's weapon, for all to see. I have nothing to hide, but I do want to protect my family and my property.
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Too bad the entire public doesn't always carry. Law enforcement would have a much harder time bullying the public, especially in a situation where they're (literally) surrounded by guns and everyone is looking out for one another.
Imagine two cops try to stop someone on the streets for one of those Constitution-violating stop-and-frisks but he refuses, so the cops start to threaten him. Suddenly, they find themselves surrounded by at least a dozen armed citizens. They'd have no choice but to back off since they'd no longer have the monopoly of power on their side.
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I do feel strongly that the NRA is at least partly responsible for recent bad events. Why is only the US subject to this amount of killing? But hey-ho, it's your kids and your 'freedoms'...
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"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
Possible argument can be made that the government is infringing on the right of the people to keep and bear arms due to these lists being kept and the way they are or can be used.
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Back on topic, it is quite telling that the publication hired armed security for their office. Why not a security force trained in hand-to-hand combat or equipped with tazers? Did this security carry high-powered assault rifles or did they simply have sidearms? I hate when people say that a simple handgun couldn't stop a madman with an assault rifle. It's like they believe the guns themselves fight it out instead of the people using the weapons. Also, most times, all it takes to stop the madman is a show of force (not even the firing of another weapon).
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Oh yeah, that's right, there isn't. All the baddies out there that will invade your property, steal your possessions and kill your family all have guns. Guns they appropriated through non-legal channels that gun control laws do nothing for. Yeah, cowards indeed. I'd call you trolls, but wouldn't want to insult the trolls that harshly.
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You know people in a particular area could be well armed but you don't know who. You could be taking your life in your hands by just stepping on someone's lawn.
THAT is a good thing.
Conversely, knowing who all of the easy targets are is a bad thing. It's bad for the people that you now know are less able to defend themselves.
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(note: these are not "gun owners" these are "pistol owners", it does not list owners of rifles or shotguns etc)
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Another aspect of copyright run amok
When every worthless scrap of paper has a default copyright on it, the concept of "private papers" disappears.
Some data should remain private. Data about me kept by corporations should not be shared or sold. The same should be true of governments.
We are clearly missing some data privacy laws here.
Not everything is a summer blockbuster and should not be treated as such.
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Only gun control laws that totally ban weapons can have any effect on non-legal channels. When an item is banned, the supply of it goes way down because there are no legal manufacturers. When the supply is way down, it's much harder to appropriate illegal firearms.
But banning firearms is pretty much out of the question because of how tightly people cling to their firearms.
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I certainly hope that no newspaper is stupid enough to start publishing such information.
Once again, the concept of "private papers" is completely lost in the modern reflex to treat every worthless scrap of paper as something that requires copyright protection.
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And is that what the newspaper article said?
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That's the problem with the people fixated on the weapon du jour. They have absolutely no imagination. They can't think their way outside of a wet paper bag and see how things might project into the future.
You need to be able to do that in order to implement any sort of effective counter measure. You also need to do that in order to craft measures that a large minority will resist.
Pretending that the NRA is a "corporate" lobbying group sounds great in your little echo chamber but probably doesn't accurately reflect reality.
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If it's available at the courthouse a thief can get it too. Or you're saying you don't mind if the smart thieves know you have a gun as long as the stupid or lazy ones don't?
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Really!?! Well here is a little more 'enlightenment' for you.
If you count all gun violence against 75 countries we are like number 10. However, more than half are suicides, so if you look at only homicide rates we are more like 15th. So it is not "only the US".
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
The reasons for violence in America have a lot more to do with society than with guns. Kids are not properly raised or schooled, and society turns a blind eye to problems in the mental health arena, gangs, drug use...
Look at Timothy McVeigh his attack on the Federal Building in Oklahoma City "killed 168 people, including 19 children in the day care center on the second floor, and injured 450 others" and he never fired a shot.
If you want to solve the problems of violence the US you aren't going to do it with gun control, there needs to be a change in society, in the way we find, report and treat the mentally ill. In what we accept as reasonable actions from people, but the most important problem to solve is probably the drug problem, as that results in a lot of violent crimes simply to support the habit, and by gangs over turf...
Guns are only a symptom of a much larger and more invasive set of problems. Only when we solve those problems will America be less violent.
The NRA is no more responsible for resent events than I am. Society is responsible. Society failed to properly identify and treat, restrain... the threat that was the cause of the latest shooting. The problem is there are very few that will admit that, because it is much easier to vilify gun owners and the NRA than it is to look at the real issues and problems and what it would take to solve them. That would take real work and be hard, much easier to go on a witch hunt and vilify guns and their owners.
That, incidentally, is a problem with most Americans, they are always looking for the easy out, the path of least work. Doesn't matter if it is right or wrong, just so it look like we have done something, that is all that matters.
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Where do you get that? I just read the article and I have no idea where you got anything about hate crimes. Did you notice the part where the reporter who wrote it owns a pistol?
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What makes you think most gun owners only have one weapon?
Do you only have one plate to eat off of? Only one cup to drink from?
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Right. It's the fact that law says it's public that makes it public.
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Why is this ironic?
It seems that if you are a gun person, you view this as being "outed". Why should anyone be ashamed because they are law-abiding citizens? I certainly don't view those red dots negatively.
If you aren't a gun person, you view this as "wow...there are a LOT of guns all around me huh?"
Coincidentally, the Journal News story is more consistent with the latter than the former. Which would explain why it's not ironic to hire armed guards when you essentially receive a fake anthrax attack in the mail (what do you THINK mail full of powder is supposed to be, huh?)
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Silly gun owners
Dont think for a second if the shit hits the fan like it did in New Orleans... they wont be bringing you water and food, they will be looking for those nice law abiding citizens that were stupid enough to register, or applied for a permit to carry, they will be looking for your guns.
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His argument was asking whether the reason people feel the need to own a gun was that they were scared. That's not ad-hominem.
Whereas "My daddy owned guns and he could swim and work with the homeless so your argument isn't true"...is ad-hominem.
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He didn't say people couldn't or shouldn't own guns. His comment asked, in slightly antagonistic but not technically inaccurate terms, why they felt the need to own and carry firearms when considered that the threat is perceived to be far greater than it actually is.
Cowardice, taking the first definition that comes up, is "where fear and excess self-concern override what is socially deemed as right and courageous". I would say that someone stealing some DVDs from your house getting shot is an act of cowardice by the holder of the gun.
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No, Andrew Norton said gun owners are cowards, which is ad hominem. Sneeje gave an example of a gun owner performing a courageous act, thereby disproving the claim that gun owners are cowards. Not ad hominem. I don't know how you could even mistake that for ad hominem.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
I'm not saying that guns should never be carried. There are of course instances where being armed would be a sensible precaution to take. I would say that the massive ownership of firearms in the US inherently makes it more likely that guns will be used. As more people purchase firearms to defend themselves, the instances of those weapons being used incorrectly will also increase.
Using your own instance, you say you have carried a gun for 30 years and only drawn it twice. (I'm in no way forming an opinion of whether you personally should carry a gun here, btw.) But what if the gun ownership levels where you work were 1 tenth of what they currently are and always had been, would you have been likely to start carrying your gun in the first place? And wouldn't a can of mace and a personal alarm be just as effective at deterring attackers in many instances?
It's just that the rest of the modern world is looking at the US and they can't get their head around why they need so many guns. The constitution argument can be thrown up all over the place, but the 2nd Amendment as it was written is clearly a product of its time, and that still doesn't answer why are they needed. Fine, people have a right to carry arms (though only some arms, most are banned). But why do they feel they need to? It's a mystery.
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So when people complain that they are now at more risk because it has been published that they have guns, that doesn't mesh with the above arguments.
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But I have far right friends who toss out the "if everyone had guns thinking" to me all the time. Those of you here who have rational reasons for having and carrying a gun, fine. I'm not trying to change your approach.
But when I have friends telling me how safe guns make them and would make others, I know there are people out there who think like that. So I think, "If more guns make more people safe, how is letting people know you have a gun a problem?"
Again, I am very concerned about how companies like Google and Facebook are collecting and using info about us. So if you want to talk to me about privacy, I'm open to it. But if you want to talk to me about encouraging more citizens to get guns (as some of my friends are doing), I'm skeptical that it would make our country more safe.
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Yes, I have wondered if the illusion of having lots of gun owners is sufficient rather than actually arming lots of people. I'm not sure I buy the idea that it would work, but I would rather have lots of people faking that they have guns rather than actually having guns. A fake gun can't hurt anyone, so I am not at risk of someone hitting me with one.
I'd also rather go the other way and have everyone who has a gun be very visible about having them. If you carry a gun, I'd like to keep an eye on it. If people treated guns like cars, maybe we'd have a bit more control over how they are used.
I've lived in western towns where everyone has a rifle rack in the back of their pickups and rifles mounted in them. You know that they view those rifles as tools.
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http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2012/12/20/an-opinion-on-gun-control/
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In context, a well-regulated militia is a group of male citizens between 16 and 45 who train together, hold drills, and have a defined chain of command that they obey.
Most high school sports teams meet the criteria to be considered a well-regulated militia.
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The newspaper didn't advise people to go "get them", but you don't identify a danger to the community without expecting some sort of action to be taken.
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You might want to study either logic or latin or both--your call.
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Guess what, this is not a perfect world, and while I believe there are a lot of level headed people out there that could carry a gun and 'improve safety', I think the reality is there are also a lot of people that are short tempered and hot headed who would make the problem worse.
Sure if there had been someone, with the right mentality, that was armed at the school many deaths could have been prevented. However, there are no guarantees and things could have turned out the same or worse anyway.
My point is not that everyone should carry a weapon. My point is trying to go after guns will do little to address the problem. Sure it is the easy thing to do, but what were the real failures?
I imagine after all the investigation is done, much like Columbine, there will be many failures that had nothing to do directly with guns. There will be things that parents, teachers, therapists... should have noticed, but either didn't or they misread the threat or they didn't want to ruin a young boys life or???
If we as a country are really interested in stopping violence then we need to treat the disease (mental health, drugs, anger, lack of education...) not the symptom (the gun). Look at Timothy McVeigh, his attack on the Federal Building in Oklahoma City "killed 168 people, including 19 children in the day care center on the second floor, and injured 450 others" and he never fired a shot. Clearly, the problem is not guns. The problem is society is failing to address mental health, and other such issues.
Yes, a gun is a tool. It can be used for good or evil. That is really no different than anything else. But funny thing about tools, if you remove one, another will soon be found to replace it.
Privacy is a different issue, and I feel VERY strongly about privacy, that is why I don't have a Facebook page, am very careful about what I email...
There is a big difference between it being a matter of public record that I carry a weapon and putting up an interactive map that says "Go here to find guns and ammo".
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I am acutely aware of the dangers of online databases (My job deals with them all the time). That really isn't the point here. The point is the abusive use of the information, not that the information existed.
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Do you always keep your keys locked in a key safe? Are all of your important documents kept in a document safe?
Certainly all important information on your computer is encrypted. There are no lists of passwords taped to the bottom of your keyboard, in a drawer or a notepad file on your desktop?
You wouldn't have any jewelry that is not locked up securely in a safe bolted to the wall would you?
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Without a means to effectively defend myself, I would be at the mercy of anyone larger or stronger than I am, or who has the gun I lacked. Since I am not an idiot, if I were defenseless I would have no choice but to take precautions to make myself safe, or avoid any situation where I might be endangered. This would likely involve either hiding in my house or buying a gun. Anything else is stupidly foolish.
You might as well say that people who have insurance are cowards. After all, a brave person would just do without medical care if they get hurt. It's not like they're planning to break a leg, right?
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Women can't be in a militia?
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I would say less, since it didn't say gun owners are going to kill our children, or advise or encourage any action against them.
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Not just the right mentality, but also the right training.
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Nobody plans those things. Nobody expects to be the victim of a criminal. You never know if or when it will happen. So you take precautions. Just like insuring your house is a precaution. You don't walk into high crime areas, you don't give gang members the finger. None of this is a sign of cowardice.
Choosing to be able to defend yourself if attacked is just good sense. Having a weapon doesn't remove any options in the event you are attacked. But choosing ahead of time to be helpless certainly does remove options. You can choose to leave a gun in a holster and meekly submit to a mugger...but if the mugger decides he doesn't like leaving witnesses, and you never owned a gun, much less have one with you, what can you do? Run? People who make a living by physical violence tend to be physically fit. Fight? With your bare hands against a knife or gun? Not likely. Hide? How? Your attacker is right there looking at you.
In a world without guns, the strongest man is king. Anyone weaker than he is can obey him or die.
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If you believe that making something completely illegal stopped it from happening, I must point out that murder is completely illegal. And people are murdered every day despite that.
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Every now and then children kill other children with a single punch.
And yet...with everyone armed 24/7/365 with a weapon that is perfectly adequate for killing their fellow human beings, it's not Fight Club in the streets, nor do the gutters run red with blood. If everybody had guns, the results would likely be similar.
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If a large young man attacks and elderly man or a small woman with any weapon other than a gun, or even with his bare hands, and his victim does not have a gun either, the odds heavily favor the young man. Guns are the only weapon where physical fitness and size are irrelevant.
With a gun, a 100lb woman in a wheelchair is exactly as dangerous as the 280lb man who is expert in mixed martial arts and bodybuilding. Without guns, that bodybuilder will win every fight with that woman.
Only a complete idiot wants a fair fight when they are the victim of a mugging or rape. You don't carry a gun to defend against the criminals who also have guns, you carry a gun because it's the most effective self-defense tool, period.
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Without a gun, whoever is strongest is king. With guns, nobody is strongest. Equality rules.
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If it comes to light that a school shooting or other mass murder spree was made possible because the shooter learned where to get guns from thanks to a newspaper article...
...is that paper liable?
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However if I were a criminal and fond of keeping my skin whole, I'd take a look at the published map and go rob a house where there weren't any guns registered.
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Further with technology one could have a panic button that would braodcast the location of that person to the police.
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Any pawnshop or bar owner can have your entire life record in seconds.
You can find out the address of anybody just by looking up the Yellow Pages.
License plates can be found online and so many other things.
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Mass murderers(which include other muders of more than 2 people) are also not that rare they jumped from 20 or so every year to 40 that is double the number, so the trend is up not down.
Quote:
That is what the "America is a Violent Country" tries to say, violence in America is a cultural thing, Americans like to kill others to solve problems, and seems almost irresponsible to arm culturally aggressive people to enable the bloodshed to continue unabashed. Would you give a junkie a job at a pharm factory?
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We're probably going to have better real time monitoring of everyone
And no, I don't mean government monitoring/tracking. I mean private company monitoring/tracking which can provide that info to marketers, insurance companies, prison builders, surveillance and security companies, etc. There's money to be made in anticipating everyone's every move.
People will have their guns, but private companies will know where those guns are and how they can be used. The gun companies don't even need cooperate. As tracking becomes more sophisticated, it will become harder to hide what you do. The privacy games will get very interesting as we move into the future. There are so many potential tracking devices on every street now that it becomes a matter of intercepting the data those devices generate and finding ways to use the info.
As I have always maintained, people who complain only about government are, I think, creating a smoke screen so that citizens are diverted from what private companies are doing. Private companies are the ones who can profit from all of that consumer data.
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Re: Re: mental
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
"You idiot! We've ALL got swords!"
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WTF How To Switch Lanes Like A Boss
Guy stuck in traffic pulls gun out of the window to make others let him pass. Probably a joke, but is it?
If someone pulled a gun on you wouldn't you like to know where such person lived so you could avoid that person as much as possible? or to know where to send the police too?
Man Shoots Dog Over Accident on Carpet
Candidate for next college massacre.
In a sense listing gun owners is like listing threats to others, just look at how many stupid people are on youtube doing stupid things with guns and you see it is nothing like self-defense or responsible use of guns.
Gun owners don't seem to take guns seriously these days.
Where are the videos of people showing good gun practices?
I know there are, but this myth that gun owners are all responsible must go away there are stupid people and many of them in America own a gun.
Those idiots are a threat to society, they endanger themselves and others and I don't see why they should be protected by any privacy, those should be exposed just like people expose pedophiles and violent criminals to everybody else.
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Re: We're probably going to have better real time monitoring of everyone
Knowledge.
How anybody is going track your self made gun?
How they gonna track anonymous currency?
Some people will be chocked that those things can also be used for illegal stuff and they will have to make a choice, allow some crime to happen or try to stop all crime and lose any bit of privacy they have.
This is a zero sum game, privacy or promise of total security you can't have both, in the past people didn't have to deal with this stuff, it was easy nobody had the means to track all things all the time, that has changed now.
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Re: We're probably going to have better real time monitoring of everyone
So if you wanted to monitor people who potentially could become threats, you could develop your own profiles, identify people who fit those profiles, and then figure out how to profit from that info.
What if, for example, a company ran detailed info on everyone who lived in your neighborhood or a neighborhood where you planned to live, and then, for a fee, gave you a safety number? You could find out which people around you are potential threats. You wouldn't even have to know their names, but you could get bulletins about how to avoid them.
Landlords can already run checks on potential buyers. Insurance companies identify low and high risk people and then quote them prices accordingly.
In other words, private companies are already profiling most of us in some way or another. The problem with the mass shootings may be that while people might be identified as particular risks, we don't yet have systems set in place to protect us from those people. But that might be coming in the future. Maybe the police won't be able to arrest someone who hasn't yet committed a crime, but there might be electronic barriers so that a potential mass murdered can't get anywhere near a school without it tripping an alarm in advance. Shooting criminals on the spot is a crude way to prevent crime, when there might be much more sophisticated technology available in the near future.
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Re: Silly gun owners
Police shoot the dog defending his homeless friend and don't even bother to check on the homeless.
When you have a gun people just chose to solve all those problems with bullets and it is specially true in the US.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
The US has a suicide rate half that of Japan, as a whole. The US doesn't have any more of a suicide problem than the vast majority of other western countries.
And I'd like to see where you got your mass murder rates, during what periods they happened, and the exact definition of mass murder that report uses. And either way, even if that rate of mass murder is accurate, it's a statistical zero. A rate of 20 or 40 a year is 0.0065 or 0.013 per 100,000 people. You're more likely to be struck by lightning.
And gun control doesn't change that. 2010 the UK had a spree shooting where a man with a double barrel shotgun and a bolt action .22 killed 12+himself and injured 11 others. Police consider it the worst shooting since Dunblane. UK has some of the strictest gun control laws in the Western world. China has been having strings of mass murders with axes and knives and bans personal gun ownership outright. An intent to cause harm and the inability to prevent these actions from coming to pass are what allow these events to happen, not simple access to firearms.
And I don't think that's true at all. "Americans" generally aren't violent, as a whole. It's a small subset that are violent in the extreme. Your comparison to giving a junkie a job at a pharm factory would be an inaccurate comparison; it's be more accurate to say you feel that since one person in a neighborhood is a junkie, the whole city should be barred from working in a pharm factory.
And regulating legal access to guns in order to regulate crime, especially organized crime, is an exercise in futility. Guns are easy to make; they're a 300 year old concept with most current guns being based on 100 year old technology. Before the DC handgun ban was ruled unconstitutional, a fifth of all handguns seized in DC were handmade. In WWII the Sten sub-machinegun was developed and is so simple and robust that a person can make one out of easily acquirable supplies and basic tools that most garages and many basement workshops have available. Just to give a little perspective.
A 'war on guns' will be about as effective as the war on drugs: not at all and completely counter productive.
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Stupid people who owns guns, the people who pull their gun for anything like trying to change lanes, you think those people should be in some sort of database to warn others about them?
The database in itself could be used to threaten gun owners to be more responsible, if anybody films you doing stupid things you end up in a public database.
Would that be immoral or civic duty?
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Re: Re: We're probably going to have better real time monitoring of everyone
How about this? The advantage of something like this is that there is monitoring, but you don't have to clear it with voters or politicians.
Oh God, Here Come the Private Security Drones
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Situations where guns means squat:
- If a mob is after you.
- If there are more guns pointed at you than you can point at them.
- If you are taken by surprise.
- If you get close enough to somebody who knows how to disarm you.
Here is a cool video:
Youtube: Systema Russian Martial Art M Ryabko knife disarming Toronto 2000
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
- Suicide rate: You are correct I was wrong.
- Mass murder(4 or more deaths in one incident): Figures can be compiled by plotting the data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics and CDC deaths databases.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/homtrnd.cfm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats /deaths.htm
You can also find counter arguments to it on James Alan Fox blog.
Quote:
Top 10 myths about mass shootings
And
No increase in mass shootings
Apparently it is unfortunate coincidence that a lot of them happened after 2000.
- Gun control effectiveness and objectives:
Quote:
You are correct it doesn't stop mass murderers that are effectively unstopable at the moment, but are also statistically irrelevant in your own words, what it stops is the other casual killings because of rage.
Threats over flatulence.
(northjsersey.com) Police: Teaneck man, 72, pointed gun at neighbor over flatulence (June 26, 2012)
Nothing happen there but it could easily end up the other way.
Quote:
POLICE: Troy man shot neighbor in face during argument over barking dogs
- Americans are violent:
Have you ever lived in Norway, UK, Japan, South Korea, New Zealand or even Canada?
If you want to experiment, you could try tracking the number of bans in American forums and other places to see how often an aggressive behavior(harsh punishment) is used.
European managed websites in general have rules but don't seem to punish every infraction with the most harsh possible way they could find, American forums on the other hand, oh boy! the zero tolerance kool-aid is strong there, but this is anecdotal, derived from personal experience only.
Aggression numbers also can be seen in the number of homicides inside a country. Jamaica is probably the place to go if you want to get murdered but if you are looking for a developed country with safe streets, the US is not it since most developed countries have a rates of less than zero, while the US has 5 murders for every 100.000 people.
That obviously is not counting the number of attempt murders, assaults and other stuff, which would increase that dramatically, maybe it is time to start looking at those numbers to see what is and what is not.
But one could see total crimes although it may be a bit off since countries like Russia don't seem to even have a database for those things.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes
Also wikipedia has a good table there that shows the "count" or number of homicides which is better than ratios I believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
The US is in an exclusive club of countries that have more than 10K homicides a year, Mexico and Brazil are in a league of their own with 20K+ and 40K+ respectively.
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Here's some info for you
Firearm & Gun Mailing Lists & Leads | AccurateLeads: Selects
City, Date Of Birth, Gender/Sex, Home Owner, Hotline, Household Income, Phone Number, Presence Of Child, Renter, State, Zip
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If a gun is too dangerous for these idiots, then what about the rest of us when those same people can vote?
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At best, I had said. This is a big country. Not everyone lives in Toronto.
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If the gun owners don't like having thier permit part of the public record, then they can move somewhere that keeps that info private. Or not get a gun permit.
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If you have a really, really lightweight car, yes. ;-)
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Re: Why is this ironic?
That being said, I find how these people on both sides acted and reacted are fairly shameful in the extreme.
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A bar owner and in fact a Pawnshop owner can really only pull from the BMV and Criminal records in my state.
I challenge you to find my address (or phone number) anywhere in the phone book. Go back as far as you like, I'll wait here.
Yes, I am very well aware license plates, and many other things can be found on-line. The point is there is a huge difference between someone logging in and looking up my information (presumable because they have my name) and all my information being published on an interactive map without any way to know who looked it up and all done without my permission.
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My point was that people don't always do what they should do, doesn't matter what your talking about.
To be honest if they get past my security system and my dogs, a safe isn't going to stop them.
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/01/04/law-enforcement-latest-critics-on-public-display-gun-own er-data-officers/print#ixzz2H779tV2i
Words have consequence and I find it funny how one amendment would SEEM to trump another when both should promote freedom.
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Interviewer: So, Mr. Jones, what are you going to do with these children on this adventure holiday?
Mr Jones: We're going to teach them climbing, abseiling, canoeing, archery, shooting...
Interviewer: Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible isn't it?
Jones: I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range.
Interviewer: Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?
Jones: I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm.
Interviewer: But you're equipping them to become violent killers.
Jones: Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute but you're not one are you?
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The more I think about it
And the more I think about it, the more I am pondering some tech solutions. The answer would not come from asking gun owners and gun manufacturers for cooperation, but by developing systems that provide protection to those who don't want to carry guns but still want to feel safe.
The advantage, too, is that those who oppose government monitoring might be less likely to complain about private companies doing it.
Here's one technology I can see being used by private businesses to begin monitoring more citizens. The advantage of private monitoring is that they don't have to wait until a crime is committed or have to obtain search warrants. If their intelligence data indicates the potential for a crime, there might be ways for private companies to keep an eye on people without running afoul of any laws. As I mentioned before, companies are profiling people all the time as it is.
Infographic Domestic Drone Use - Business Insider
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Re: The more I think about it
At Disney Parks, a Bracelet Meant to Build Loyalty (and Sales) - NYTimes.com: "Did you buy a balloon? What attractions did you ride and when? Did you shake Goofy’s hand, but snub Snow White? If you fully use MyMagic , databases will be watching, allowing Disney to refine its offerings and customize its marketing messages."
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Re: The more I think about it
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130103/07544121562/blowback-publication-gun-owner -data-continues-threats-lawsuits-rejected-foia-requests.shtml#c2319
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: But I thought the push was for everyone to have a gun
Secondly, I'd point out that repeated research has shown that people carrying guns are more likely to be shot that those who aren't. An example is seen here.
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Re: Re: The more I think about it
As I have pointed out a number of times on Techdirt, private companies are monitoring people already. All the complaints about government monitoring don't address that issue.
Gun control via monitoring may be one time when private companies can do something government can't because they won't be dealing with the politics. And if private companies can actually do something to identify people who might shoot innocent people and then prevent that from happening, there will be people who will pay to have that done.
The fight to prevent gun control via laws does open the door for gun monitoring via private data collection and use. I am imagine that the data gathering won't single out gun owners and only collect info on them, but if identifiable patterns develop which predict dangerous use of guns, that info can be used to target those individuals.
At any rate, do you see what I am saying? If you stop governments from monitoring citizens, but private companies do it anyway, it is being done. That info might not be turned over to government, but if it is turned over to private citizens who use it to protect themselves, it is being used.
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You have gun manufacturers, ammunition manufacturers, and military weapons manufacturers who make products that can kill people, whether or not they are used for that purpose. At any rate, they products are often marketed for as a form of self-defense.
But on the other hand, you have tech companies that are developing new forms of data collection, new forms of warfare which don't require killing people, and new products (like drones). These allow for self-defense that might prevent loss of life. Heading off a problem is better than having to kill someone to stop the problem.
So if you believe that business should be allowed to be work fairly unfettered by laws, you will see the new tech companies looking for ways to disrupt the old companies working in the same spheres. If new technology reduces the need for guns, bullets, and bombs, lots of people will be happy about it, though not necessarily those who want to sell guns, bullets, and bombs.
Yes, I know gun owners don't necessarily own guns for self-defense. But if those who don't want to own guns can find ways to feel safe without guns, then the market for guns stays as a sport market more than a self-defense market, which I think is what lots of people would like to see because it lessens the use of guns as weapons.
The push forward of technology may turn guns into something that is viewed along with horse ownership, something a group of people enjoy but not something most people think about purchasing.
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Public Record
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This info has already been online for awhile now
"... Cook’s post represents a welcome dose of skepticism vis-a-vis much-tossed-about claims that the Journal News has suddenly placed many, many people in danger."
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Here's a really good example of privatizing gun control
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An opportunity for private companies
If private companies can gather data on gun use, it is something they can sell. Better they do it than no one does it.
Lack Of Up-To-Date Research Complicates Gun Debate : It's All Politics : NPR
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