Why Is The UK Blocking Access To Sites Without Any Hearings?
from the extremely-questionable dept
We already wrote about the UK court letting the BPI decide what sites the court would order all UK ISPs to block access to, but as more details come out about the process, the scarier it is. As Duke noted in our comments, the whole process lacked any sort of due process:For those interested the full judgment is here: EMI Records Ltd & Ors v British Sky Broadcasting Ltd & Ors [2013] EWHC 379 (Ch)The Open Rights Group (ORG) in the UK has quite reasonably expressed its concern about how such blockades are likely to stifle speech, especially when there is no one allowed to argue against the blocking.
The law is a bit worrying (I haven't read it in that much detail but I think it goes slightly further than previous ones) - the main concern is that, again, there was no hearing, no defence, no cross-examination of evidence etc.. Without seeing the witness statements I can't be sure, but I think the judge just accepted everything the BPI had to say at face value.
That's not justice - not in an adversarial court system.
We are concerned that these orders are not protecting speech, are overblocking forums and discussion, and are prone to error as the actual block lists are private.It amazes me that anyone thinks it's reasonable to shut down a site without any sort of due process in the form of an adversarial hearing, in which multiple sides can be presented. The opportunity for widespread abuse and the stifling of free expression is massive.
Furthermore, users and the public interest have not been represented in the processes
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Filed Under: blocking, censorship, due process, file sharing, hearings, uk
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"But you haven't even heard my statements yet."
"I said 'Guilty!' Case closed. Send in the next infringer."
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"But you haven't even heard my statements yet."
"I said 'Guilty!' Case closed. Send in the next infringer."
This *should* be flagged as funny, but since it basically represents actual reality, I'm giving it the correct "insightful" vote.
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Then we find them guilty.
Followed by the trial.
After which the evidence of their guilt is presented; all other evidence is declared invalid.
But, you say why have the trial since you have already loped their head?
Simple, we can not lop the head of an innocent person so we hold the trial to find them guilty. That way we never lop the head of an innocent person.
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As for the block order, the plaintiff's were required to present evidence, and the judge was required to consider the request using a broad standard before he could even issue an order. This hardly sounds like "[the] UK court letting the BPI decide what sites the court would order all UK ISPs to block access to"
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But you still have to at least invite them. If you notify all the involved parties and nobody shows up or files a motion, fine... but is that truly that what happened here?
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"I have considered the applications on paper. I have already informed the Claimants that I did not require them to try to serve the applications on the operators of the Websites. My reasons for so directing are the same as those I gave with regard to the operators of TPB in Dramatico v Sky at [10]-[13]. So far as the third reason is concerned, the evidence on these applications satisfies me that it would be equally impracticable and pointless to try to serve the operators of the Websites."
Nope. The judge simply declared that it was pointless to even TRY to serve the websites.
But perhaps here's why:
"i) IFPI investigations into KAT indicate that the website's operators have changed its domain registrant details repeatedly over the last five years, shifting the relevant addresses between France, Lithuania, Serbia, Spain, Ukraine and the United States in that time. The most recent domain registrant has an address in Belgrade. When further investigated, those details have also been found to include false addresses and aliases. Likewise, the website appears to have repeatedly shifted between different service providers, and in the past three years has moved between various ISPs in France, Germany, Luxembourg, Poland, Romania, Spain, Sweden and Ukraine."
I do think they should have made the effort to try again, for due process reasons, but I no longer think it would have made a difference.
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I hope that not many share that simple view, it is worth it to follow proper procedure and safeguard ALL protections against abuse, going through shortcuts is the easiest way to fall prey to bad people.
Just look at what kind of people IP laws have been promoting lately.
Patent trolls, free speech censorship, copyright trolls that are using the tools given to protect something to abuse it and they do it with impunity, just look at how Youtube is being abused by people who don't even hold the rights to any of those works yet still go around claiming they own everything, that is clearly abusive behavior, that is what no safeguards means, it means people can start abusing the system.
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It is just as likely that the sites keep moving to stay online, it probably has nothing to do with not wanting to be found (that is your opinion). The judge seemed to assume these new sites were doing that too, but it's interesting that no one bothered to check this and instead just assume.
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True, but it is a very bad idea to suspend basic legal rights just because someone is in hiding.
The next case won't involve hiding because of infringement accusations. It will be much more serious.
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The judge shouldn't even be seeing the case. Leave content blocking to the Chinese. The Internet should be dumb pipes.
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and they will also change the URLs and IP addresses - rendering the blocking pointless.
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Exactly.
If you believe you can chooses to suspend due process whenever you decide it "makes a difference," you are not operating a fair, just system.
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Due to the way this law was written (iirc it comes from the WIPO Copyright Treaty), the claimants can be anyone (but tend to be big copyright owner groups), the defendants are the ISPs - not the site operators.
As to why the site operators weren't enjoined, the judge discussed this in the TPB case (relevant part here). Basically; 1) The law doesn't require that they be there, 2) it would be impractical to do so (to find who they are, where they are, etc.) and 3) they probably wouldn't be interested in defending the cases even if they were.
Personally, I don't find those convincing reasons not to try, but then I'm not a High Court judge.
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It is obviously wrong to do away with the very thing that protects as all.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KangarooCourt
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The judgment limits blocking to only foreign sites? Where did you read that?
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Freedom of speech and due process
1. I hope "adversarial hearing" means a full and proper trial, with the requisite burden of proof, rules of evidence and procedure. Any lesser standard is unacceptable.
2. Governments should not have the power to suppress the flow online traffic. As long as a website is legal wherever it's being hosted, it should be visible everywhere. Dumb pipes, that's all.
3. Suppressing content without due process is the new normal. Governments and corporations around the world have decided that respecting the rights of those accused makes fighting copyright infringement too much of a hassle. It started with the DMCA and got worse from there. It may yet get even worse.
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Re: Freedom of speech and due process
Why else would there be a "secret" list so we can't see exactly what they've blocked?
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Re: Freedom of speech and due process
You mean like how medical marijuana is legal in some states and it is legal to mail it to states where it's not? The postal service is dumb pipes, right?
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Re: Re: Freedom of speech and due process
- Ted Stevens, rip
Does the USPTO have financial interest in companies which would benefit from selective delivery? ie: slower delivery (or none at all) of mail items depending upon who the sender is.
Is there more competition in the delivery to residence market than there is in the ISP market?
The postal service is a government run service and therefore subject to rules and regulations levied upon it.
ISPs are private business subject to the rules and regulations of ... the FCC I guess, although that is rather meaningless at the moment because there does not seem to any rules that they follow.
The analogy is horrible - and it did not include an automobile.
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C Blockers
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Intellectual property is our most valuable asset.
Its more important than human life.
Its more important than free speech.
Its more important than anything else.
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Say No To Socialism
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/03/25/850793/-BOTHERED-BY-PESKY-GOVERNMENT-PROGRAMS
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This censorship way of thinking leads directly to the walled garden approach to a country's Internet accessibility. Evil prediction: each country will not allow foreign based opinions. (its inevitable in a time of war (on terror?))
As for censorship of porn or copyrighted material that never just happens. Its NEVER just about porn or 'the children'. Along with the porn a censoring body will include whatever controversial site requested by the ruling party. We are talking about, normal human nature, an irrevocable force.
Not quite off topic is my personal evaluation of whether a site is 'telling me the truth as they know it'.
Does your site allow cuss words like shit, fuck, asshole and the like? If they don't they are censoring the responses plus whatever else that pisses them off. Do you allow links to what some would consider disgustful photos? (sorry, wont be giving an example here) Same answer as above.
An easy measurement is if you allow (or delete like many manufacturer forum sites do) dissenting commentary. ANY site that prohibits free and uncensored speech is suspect. (some children sites excepted of which I expect to be locally enforced and not by some government agency list)
If this post makes it... thanks (again) Mike for providing an uncensored environment that evaluates the technological implications of our modern day environment.
The abuses of present copyright law is becoming legendary in that even the declared by the Library of Congress normal fair use items are still subject to take-down requests.
Adrian Lopez: you said almost everything.
Due process is hard and difficult to do in reality but this is why we hire professional attorneys and such. The expectation that these jobs be easy is beyond comprehension. (way, way, waaaaay beyond)
More importantly what percentage of the USA GDP (Gross Domestic Product) is lost to copyright madness?
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You didn't think that it was reasonable to shut down a site with an adversarial hearing either.
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Never thought I'd live to see the day...
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Religion
Now imagine it in Japan with Japanese officers and a Japanese prosecutor, all to show the US how much of a "true believers" they are in IPR-Protection. These blocks are what the UK does to express their unquestioning Belief.
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Re: Religion
That "R" is a pirate noise, it must be removed
land of the fee
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