FBI Admits That Obeying The Constitution Just Takes Too Much Time

from the oh-the-horrors dept

Thu, Jun 20th 2013 6:14am — Mike Masnick

While much of the news coverage of FBI Director Robert Mueller's Congressional hearing this week focused on his admission that the FBI has used drones domestically, there were some other points raised, including his "defense" of the broad surveillance techniques that appears to amount to the idea that it just takes too long to obey the Constitution and go through the proper procedures before getting information:

Testifying before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Mr. Mueller addressed a proposal to require telephone companies to retain calling logs for five years — the period the N.S.A. is keeping them — for investigators to consult, rather than allowing the government to collect and store them all. He cautioned that it would take time to subpoena the companies for numbers of interest and get the answers back.

“The point being that it will take an awful long time,” Mr. Mueller said.

Well, shucks. Having some amount of oversight, someone in a position to make sure that the data requested is legit would just take too long? It seems like Mueller maybe has been watching too many episodes of 24. First off, it does not take an "awful" long time. Law enforcement has regularly been able to go through legal processes to get a wiretap or subpoena other information very, very rapidly, especially when they make it clear it's an emergency situation. But the fact is, it's unlikely that most of these searches are such a timely emergency that they need the data now, and can't wait an hour or so until an employee at the telco can retrieve it for them.

Mueller later made some outrageous claims about how long it would take the telcos to respond to a request for information following the standard procedures in an emergency.

“In this particular area, where you’re trying to prevent terrorist attacks, what you want is that information as to whether or not that number in Yemen is in contact with somebody in the United States almost instantaneously so you can prevent that attack,” he said. “You cannot wait three months, six months, a year to get that information, be able to collate it and put it together. Those are the concerns I have about an alternative way of handling this.”

Mr. Mueller did not explain why it would take so long for telephone companies to respond to a subpoena for calling data linked to a particular number, especially in a national security investigation.

He didn't explain it because it wouldn't take that long -- especially with the telcos who generally have a cozy relationship with law enforcement and a "how high?" response to the "jump!" command from the government.

Yes, I'm sure it's more convenient for the government to not have to wait an hour or so to get this info. And it's more convenient not to have to wait for a telco employee to make sure the request is legit and to retrieve the info, but we don't get rid of our Constitutional protections because of convenience for the surveillance state. The whole point of the rights of the public against such intrusions is that we, as a country, have made a conscious choice that surveillance over the population is not supposed to be convenient. It's supposed to involve careful checks and balances to avoid abuse. It's a shame that so many in our own government don't seem to recognize this basic point.

Mueller also admitted that the goal is to collect as much data as possible to "connect the dots."

“What concerns me is you never know which dot is going to be key,” he said. “What you want is as many dots as you can. If you close down a program like this, you are removing dots from the playing field,” he said. “Now, you know, it may make that decision that it’s not worth it. But let there be no mistake about it. There will be fewer dots out there to connect” in trying to prevent the next terrorist attack.

Again, this is an anti-Constitutional argument. It's an argument that says any violation of privacy and civil liberties is okay if something collected might possibly be useful later. But that's not how we're supposed to do things in the US. We're only supposed to allow law enforcement to collect the dots if there's evidence that the dots show some law being broken. Furthermore, we've already seen that having lots of dots actually makes it harder to connect the dots. Since Mueller is one of the folks who has claimed that today's system might have prevented 9/11, he ought to know that the 9/11 Commission never said that an absence of dots was the problem leading to the attack, but rather the failure of existing agencies to actually do anything with the dots/evidence they had. Collecting more dots doesn't make you any more likely to connect them. In fact, it's much more likely to send you on a wild goose chase -- including some that will potentially infringe upon the rights of innocent people.

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Filed Under: constitution, fbi, nsa surveillance, robert mueller, subpoenas, surveillance

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Sneeje (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 4:37am

Let us not forget...
...the importance of specific "dots" is also subjective. If investigators are looking through portions of your life, no matter how good a citizen or human being you are, they will find something they could decide is relevant when seen in the context of other "dots".

Meaning, the reason there are supposed to be a great deal of barriers to collecting "dots" is because the greater number of "dots" they have, the more likely they will find one that subjectively fits their analysis objectives, even if you have nothing to do with the type of crime or scheme they are looking for.

We are all human, we are all guilty of imperfection and that basic fact alone should demonstrate that data collection without a predicate scheme and probable cause is fundamentally wrong.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:29am

You talk up spying all day long in congressional hearings,
and all he gives you is a light beer !!!
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horse with no name, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:36am

yet they are correct
If a crime can be committed in a second, but justice takes years, are we not giving the benefit of the system to the criminals? Are we not making it easier for them to commit those crimes, as long as they change methods from time to time to avoid the time it takes for the legal system to process through a warrant?

Technology allows it, we need to accept that police need to be on at least an equal footing to the criminals, or justice will almost always lose.

As a side note, Mike, it's enough with the moderation already. If you don't like my comments, that's fine, but censorship? I didn't think that you had it in you. I have plenty of comments from the last few days (all valid) that did not appear on the site. Are you now down to censoring people because you disagree with them? Are you perhaps confusing multiple people are a single person, and blocking various anonymous commentators to try to swat one fly? It seems perhaps that you have lost the plot and fallen for the very tools of evil you rail against.

Censorship sucks, and it sucks worse when someone who opposes it thinks it's the best solution.
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ChurchHatesTucker (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:39am

Scope
If you're looking for a needle in a haystack, you don't start by collecting all the haystacks.
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johnjac (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:40am

Connect the dots to create a terrorist
How much of this dot connection effort is put toward preventing terrorism, and how much of this dot effort is put to finding future suspects for the FBI's fake terror plots? How many of the '50' PRISM prevented terrorist plots were real and how many were cooked up by the FBI?
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Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:41am

Logic that show 'The government has only been successful at preventing terrorists attacks, only by violating constitutional rights' is the same logical arguments that could show I have been successfully detering terrorists attacks around me because I'm awesome.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:41am

Re: Scope
im in ur haystakz steelin ur needlz
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:43am

Re:
Whew! We need at least SOMEONE around here to be awesome.
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Wig, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:51am

Prevent or punish?
As I see it, trying to prevent an action that would be against the law by starting the investigation before any unlawful act takes place, is always going to conflict with the rules for a criminal investigation, because that is supposed to happen after a crime was commited.
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Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:52am

Re: Scope
It sounds stupid (because it is) but if you were asked to collect 10 needles from 20 haystacks, all you have to do is put all the haystacks together and you can say you've collected them.

Does it help you if you need hay without needles? No.

They want to collect all the data so that they can say,
'at least there was a statistical possibility that I could have found it in the data'. It gives them a defense for when they fail, a way for them to avoid personal accountability and push it away from themselves onto something or someone else. If they don't want the REAL responsibility though, they should find something else to do.
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DannyB (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:52am

Police work is always easy in a police state
Dear FIB: Police work is always easy in a police state.

In a state with a constitution guaranteeing freedom, police work is harder.
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Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:54am

Re: Prevent or punish?
That's why plotting and planning the crime is a crime in itself.
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Lord Binky, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:54am

Re: Prevent or punish?
That's why plotting and planning the crime is a crime in itself.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:58am

'so many in our own government don't seem to recognize this basic point'

got nothing to do with recognising anything. it's to do with expecting, as a matter of course, to be able to get whatever information wanted, from whatever source, from whoever as soon as possible with the least, if any at all, wait period. the first thing is, if it were one of those saying this is ok, there's no need to tread carefully because they're only ordinary people, that was on the receiving end, there would be all hell let loose! everything bad is always fine when it's someone else on the receiving end.
this whole issue is not even about terrorist attacks or anyone else executing an attack of any description on anyone. it is all about having total control of everyone that is not in a powerful position in either business or politics. in other words, if you are just a 'joe soap', you've got no right to even have rights! if you are above 'joe soap' level, you're fine and can get away with almost anything unscathed!!
the horrendous, cowardly attacks on 9/11 were just that. although every nation has to remain vigilant, i think the 'in case of terrorism' is wearing a bit thin as an excuse for locking everyone, everywhere down all the time. there may be other attacks. i certainly hope to God there are not but to take the steps of prevention to the lengths they are at the moment, is making the people more afraid of their own government. it appears that terrorism has won because governments are doing the terrorists job, making everyone too afraid to do, go or say anything in case it is misconstrued. in other words, they are terrified!!
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Anonymous Howard (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:04am

A present for Mr. Mueller

Also, maybe moar dots could have saved WTC 7 from spontaneously collapsing..
Justifying everything with 9/11 is getting old
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:06am

Pesky laws are always getting in the way.

Why don't we just make law enforcement agencies exempt from obeying the law?

/sarcasm
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:06am

Re: Connect the dots to create a terrorist
I imagine that's classified information your representative would have been privy to had they not ducked out early and missed the meeting.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:09am

Re:
"successful at preventing terrorists attacks, only by violating constitutional rights"

Bank robbers could claim they prevented banks from stealing money.
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Marc, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:10am

Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
Mr. Mueller is correct with regard to obtaining records from telephone companies. Telephone companies are receiving hundreds of requests for telephone records by subpoena or search warrant everyday. Depending on the amount of information and type of information, the telephone company takes anywhere from a day to multiple weeks to provide the information to the government agency requesting the information. The writer isn't writing this article based on fact, but their own opinion. Please do some research and use some common sense.
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Sneeje (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:16am

Re: Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
Ummm... you need to take your own advice. Common sense also dictates that if the need is great enough, Tel Co's will prioritize exactly the requests under discussion here so that they will not take such time.

Why are you assuming otherwise?
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Grover (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:17am

Re: Scope
Not when you have an NSA supermagnet! By the way, Mike, well-written article!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:19am

Re: Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
"Telephone companies are receiving hundreds of requests for telephone records by subpoena or search warrant everyday. Depending on the amount of information and type of information, the telephone company takes anywhere from a day to multiple weeks to provide the information to the government agency requesting the information."

Perhaps the volume of requests speaks volumes as to the nature of the problem. If the telco delays are taking weeks, perhaps that's because the request(s) is(are) out of line.

FBI creating it's own "crisis" to justify it's massive spying programs. Releasing the details of the requests that are taking so long would clear that up.

A government that operates in secrecy deserves no trust, and NO assumption of common sense.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:24am

... a warrant can be obtained in minutes, afaik. If there is a problem with how fast a company responds to a subpoena, then the solution is to introduce laws limiting how long you have to respond to a warrant/subpoena/whatever, not remove the requirement to get one in the first place.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 8:39am

Does all this spying need to be offset by cuts elsewhere?
I suggest cutting the congressional retirement fund in order to maintain their "balanced budget". Seems they only care about the deficit when it suits their narrative.
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Lowestofthekeys (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 8:57am

Re: Let us not forget...
I thought Ed Snowden expounded on this, saying that the range of surveillance is dangerous because it lets them build a record of what they consider to be "suspicious" activity.

At that point in time, it wouldn't matter if you were innocent or not because like you said, they'll use the information fit their analysis objectives.
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Brandon Rinebold (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:04am

Re:
I think a more accurate comparison is issuing a subpoena for *everything* about *everyone* at *any time* for investigation of *anything*. It's not that they're not getting court approval for this. It's that the court they're using is rubber-stamping something that negates the entire purpose of the courts' involvement.

I don't blame the 3-letter agencies here as much as the court that ruled on this incredibly over-broad order in the first place and keeps renewing it every time it expires. The 3-letter agencies and police are expected to try to do everything they can to ensure they have everything they might possibly need to find criminals. It's the courts' job to keep telling them 'no' when they try to (or do) violate our rights.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:15am

Inconvenience
A trial is an inconvenience and take agents away from fight against terrorism, so why don't we just through people in jail if they are accused..... What happened to that law?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:16am

Re: Prevent or punish?
Oh, I was unaware that conspiracy to commit is no longer a crime. Thank you for informing me that my knowledge of the law was in error.
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ahow628 (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:21am

Due/do
It is called due process, not do process.
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That One Guy (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:21am

Re:
You mean officially? That would take too much work, easier to just continue doing so unofficially.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:24am

Re: Let us not forget...
What they are referring to with 'connect the dots' isn't more evidence in a large case that needs to be worked out by people, they are talking about more data for deep learning. They are talking about using the same techniques places like google use to make searching and the internet as a whole more personal to the user to predict and track where crimes and attacks could happen. By matching patters. Sounds like minority report, right? Problem with that is that it isn't perfect, and will show plenty of false positives and the fact that unsupervised training of an ANN is still something in heavy research. Oh also it's still friggin unconstitutional... and the notion that more data leads to better results faster is debated.
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That One Guy (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:24am

Re: Inconvenience
Guantanamo bay anyone?
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MojoBox, 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:36am

Mueller than proceeded to throw a tantrum about eating his vegetables and was then sent to bed with no desert.
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Rich Fiscus (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:50am

I keep looking through the US Constitution for the execptions the government keeps using to justify all these 4th Amendment violations but I just can't seem to find them. Maybe somebody here can help me out.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Maybe I'm missing it but I can't find where it says "unless it makes government employees work harder" or "unless something bad might be prevented." There is, however, a specific reference to security. Specifically it covers personal security which is the entire point of this amendment (and really the entire Bill Of Rights) to begin with.

The entire point of national security (or law enforcement) is to provide for the people's security so by definition any other security concerns are secondary to that goal. By extension anything that reduces personal security, as defined by the Constitution, also reduces national security.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:51am

Re: Let us not forget...
Yes. In fact, this sort of problem is inevitable. Humans have a deep-seated need to find patterns in noise, and will invent them when they don't exist.

Anyone who's stared into a TV displaying static (yes, I'm dating myself) knows this: you'll see shapes in there. They don't exist outside of your mind, but you'll see them nonetheless.
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RIAA, 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:51am

Can you imagine how long it takes, trying to make sure people we sue aren't actually grandmothers? And now you also want us to make sure that said grandmothers are alive? Imagine the moral horror if our operations were impeded, trying to sue the RIGHT people!
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:55am

Re: Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
That's odd. Our local police have stated a number of times that it takes 1-3 days for the telephone company to respond to subpoenas. In emergency situations, they can get a response in a matter of s few hours.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 9:57am

Re: Re:
The 3-letter agencies and police are expected to try to do everything they can to ensure they have everything they might possibly need to find criminals.

Not quite. They are expected to do everything they can within the law. If they are making requests that they know is beyond the intent of the law on the off chance that a court might play along anyway, then I fault them for that.
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Randy, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:05am

Under Oath
I was watching a 1930's movie the other night. One bad guy was very upset with another bad guy who had "spilled the beans" The bean spiller replied, "I had no choice, I was under oath" Boy, how things have changed.
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RailroadMike, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:18am

"Mission Accomplished"
I bet the people involved in the 1934 "Business Plot" the attempted Coup De'tate of the US government are screaming from their graves. The goal back to destroy democracy and turn the country into a Fascist State like Bentio Mussolin's Italy. "Mission Accomplished'.
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Bob, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:20am

Snooping
Here's the way I see it; All of this data collection on us common folk is like a virus in your computer. As with a virus.....it often collects data and is used for a purpose for an un-warranted activity....National Spying and not some Corporate Spying for a dismal product. Regardless what the Govt is doing is a form of Terrorism in it's own way as we are now in more fear of our own Govt than we are for the Terrorists they are claiming to protect us from.....I now feel threatened from my OWN GOVT!!!!!!!!
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IC, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:23am

ok
Mr Mueller: terrorist don't communicate by phone or the internet anymore. They send telepathic messages....any idea how to tap into this new technology?
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ThomasJ, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:31am

POTUS
We have a POTUS who in on record as saying the Constitution is outdated and needs to be modernized. Therefore, there is nothing surprising in his underlings willingness to ignore the Constitution or bend it to their own means.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:32am

Re: Re: Let us not forget...
And they don't have to find you doing anything illegal - they only need to find a way to discredit you as a person. This means catching you in a lie, or taking a statement out of context - anything that might damage your character in front of a jury so they'll be prejudiced against you.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:38am

I have always known we have been spied on by Yahoo, Google, Microsoft and the likes, but when internet service providers allow access to my information for government use, I say enough. I am now using email that is encrypted and search engines that are https secure with no tracking cookies or recording of ip addresses. Such as Ixquick search. I will not continue to make money for internet service providers, your information is how they make their money, by using their tracked , unencrypted email and search engines provides them with a product to sell. I am taking this away from them. This is the one area in my life I do have the power to control and effect consequences to those who bite the hand that feeds it, and so can you..
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john smith, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:41am

The Constitution and the FBI
It would behove the members of our FBI to have in their coat pocket a little 47 page copy of the US Constitution / the Amendments & the Declaration of Independence ... It woulkd be something to read once a week in its entirity while employed by the US government.
The Constitution is not too hard to follow and live by.... It does restrict Givernment, but allows the people to prosper. It was intended that way. The Democrats have always hated this.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:47am

takes too long to obey the law or enforce the law??
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Ian, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:50am

Mr Mueller hurts his own credibility
Mr Mueller says is agency cannot wait 3-12 months to get permission to check out a telephone call. Wait a minute if he needs a warrant there are Judges available (FISA) 24/7/365 so there is no way a genuine need cannot be handle expeditiously. By throwing out clearly incorrect statements that it would take 3-12 months he loses total credibility for himself and his agency.
It's "trust" in Gvt which is the "loser" here. Mr Mueller obviously thinks we should "trust" him with all information, but his statements show he "lies" so he is his own worst enemy.
He needs to quantify the "real" delay which might be from say (my guess) an hour or so, to 24 hours at most and explain why this is not acceptable and quantify the number of "incidents" which would have taken place were such a delay in force retroactively.
Snowden is no "hero" IMHO and so far I cannot see that he has "leaked" any info which wasn't already in the public domain for reasonably informed people. But the words of Mr Mueller and others in Gvt are really undermining confidence in "Gvt" and creating a widening loss of "trust".
This lack of credible leadership is very worrying.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:54am

fuck you
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Milt, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:54am

Spying
In barely four years in office, five jihadists have reached their targets in the United States under Barack Obama: the Boston Marathon bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square Bomber, the Fort Hood shooter, the Little Rock recruiting office shooter. In the over seven years after 9/11 under George W. Bush, how many terrorists reached their target in the United States? Zero! We need to ask, �Why is the Obama Administration failing in its mission to stop terrorism before it reaches its targets in the United States?� Yeah it�s working!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:56am

Re: yet they are correct
Never mind that a warrant can be obtained after the fact
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Judge Dread, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:57am

Re:
Yeah
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:59am

Re: Re: Inconvenience
United States of Guantanamo
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:01am

Re: Under Oath
lol

Hollywood != reality
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:02am

Re: POTUS
citation?
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:07am

Re: Spying
"after 9/11" ..... crucial qualification, also let's ignore the credible evidence of impending activity leading up to that fateful day.

Not sure what the comparison is supposed to show, maybe it is a dog whistle.
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Jeff poole, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:07am

FBI say's respecting the Constitution takes too much time?
All this really got started with the 9/11 attacks, and the subsequent Patriot Act. At the time there were many call against the Act, saying it was too prone to abuse. Seems they were well founded.
The thing that the 9/11 attacks sought to do was to change us into something other than what we were. To take away the freedom that our Constitution gave us. If we allow this mindset so prevalent today to continue,the terrorists will have succeeded. We will no longer be the America that we were before the attacks. The longest lasted constitutional republic ever created will have succumbed to a few religious zealots trying to force their misguided will upon the greatest nation ever to exist on this planet.
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John, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:08am

Re: Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
I don't doubt it. What does that tell you? There are far too many subpoenas being issued. If the feds can get this information in violation of the 4th Amendment, then what do you suppose the lower courts are doing? First, we could cut back on the senseless subpoenas being issued.

If that doesn't satisfy you, then we can establish a system of priority. Suppose the following:

Tel Co: Sorry FBI... It will be at least 3 days before I can get you that information.
FBI: I don't have 3 days; I need this now!
Tel Co: Well X County Constable was first in line with 25 subpoenas related to the recent Jolly Burger theft. Constable said it is really important because the suspects got away with $50 and 2 cases of meat.
FBI: I don't care about the Jolly Burger theft. By the way, how did he get 25 subpoenas issued related to that minor theft.
Tel Co: Since word got out that you all were usurping the Constitution, these magistrates have been handing out subpoenas like crazy. I'll get you the requested information when I'm done working the JB theft. Have a nice day!

I seriously think we could legislate around this problem. Upon a proper showing, imminent threats to national security would be given top priority. Problem solved. Next excuse, Marc?
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LVDave (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:12am

Re: Let us not forget...
yup.. Posters here seem to forget that in the minds of these NSA/FBI officials, there ARE no "innocent people".. In their minds EVERYone is potentially a terrorist, and if you happen to believe strongly in the Constitution, limited government, you ARE a terrorist.. It pains me no end to believe/state this, as I love this country, but fear the government FAR more than I do some possibly imaginary islamic terrorist...
As far as I'm concerned the government is rapidly showing it IS a terrorist...
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LVDave (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:16am

Re:
Don't worry, Obama and his ilk have that on their to-do list....
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Michael Davis, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:17am

There is nothing unconsititutional
They have to get a warrant from a FISA court judge to view your information. Yes the telecos are required to hold the information in their databases,but the governmet can not access it without a warrant from a FISA court judge.
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Vincent Clement (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:18am

Re: Spying
You could at least put your comments in quote and cite Tom Cotton.
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Jeff Brodhead, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:25am

Bummer
"They're gonna need some more FBI guys, I guess."
~~Dwayne T. Robinson (quote from Die Hard)
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jack, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:32am

Its time people in the government were held accountable for Subverting the US Constitution. From the Commie president to the FBI. They all think they are above the LAW.
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Wayne A. Biszick, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:33am

An inconvenient truth
Our constitution is not designed to be ignored for conveniece by anyone. It contains the rules for life in the United States.
If the director of the FBI finds it is too difficult to do his job within the confines of the constitution and that he has done his job outside of the constitutional requirements he has just confessed to criminal behavior and should be immediately fired, prosecuted, and immprisoned. I am not a lawyer but in my opinion, this sounds like treasonous behavior and should be dealt with accordingly. I am tired of hearing good reasons for our government to do horrible things. It has reached the point where every person should listen to or read governmental rhetoric with a very cynical approach. My first question is, what is the hidden message in any communication from those whose sworn duties include protecting and defending the constitution of the United States. I am unable to find much protecting and defending or preservation of the Constitution going on out there. We need to put stronger strictures in place for any elected person that fails in their sworn duty to do the preserving, protecting,defending, and/or enforcing the of the Constitution. There is no greater crime, in my opinion, and the maximum punishment we can devise would suit the crime.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:36am

Re:
And you have just become of interest to NSA, by trying to avoid surveillance.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:40am

The definition of Terrorist is being broadened.
Originally, a terrorist was one who committed an act of terror (e.g. a public bombing in which casualties were random individuals).

Then it came down to people who plan an act of terror (or can be goaded into such by undercover agents) but before the act was imminent.

Then it got down to people who talk about maybe committing an act of terror when they're particularly punchy or drunk.

And terrorists got expanded to people who have agendas that might lead to a terror strategy. (Environmentalists, Occupyists, Anonymous)

Then terror got expanded to acts that don't kill or injure but embarrass or inconvenience.

Now terrorists is expanded to any counterculture group that might subvert the mainstream and step outside the public's comfort zone.

And now terror includes brandishing a banana or a finger while playing let's pretend. Or having activities or ideas that are unpopular. Street art is right out.

Denn heute erh�rt uns Deutschland
Und morgen die ganze Welt.
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Ellen Anderson, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:43am

Constitution
"Well, shucks" right back .... and first of all, I get so annoyed with the sensationalist headlines that are misleading. Anyway .... do you know how long it actually takes for the FBI to get a subpoena issued and served? Then how long the person/company served has to comply? And how much longer after that it takes to get on a court docket to hear the case if the person/company doesn't feel the need to comply? This author seems to suggest that it is not okay to bypass the Constitution on one level, but it is okay to circumvent procedure on another level.
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donnaca, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:45am

fbi ignores
everyone is a terrorist to our protectors - usama triggered fear like none other - mccarthy to a lesser degree, perhaps.
We now have the israeli model that was long being sought.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 11:48am

Re: yet they are correct
"If a crime can be committed in a second, but justice takes years, are we not giving the benefit of the system to the criminals?"

We are giving the benefit of the system to the innocent. It's called innocent until proven guilty and it's called the Fourth Amendment. It's better to let a few guilty men go free than to imprison or infringe on the rights of one innocent man. The government cannot be allowed to become the perpetrator of crime against innocent people.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:02pm

Re: yet they are correct
we need to accept that police need to be on at least an equal footing to the criminals, or justice will almost always lose.

If the police are actually on an equal footing with criminals, then justice has already lost. To level the playing field means that we need to allow cops to engage in illegal an unethical behavior, just like the criminals can.

For overall justice to prevail, we have to accept that police powers must be carefully constrained and that some determined criminals will be able to escape justice because of those constraints.
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:05pm

Re: "Mission Accomplished"
Yes. There is no form of government that business loves more than fascism (business is right there in the definition of it, even).
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:09pm

Re: There is nothing unconsititutional
the telecos are required to hold the information in their databases

No, the government is collecting and holding this information in their databases. And, in my opinion, that is unconstitutional.

They absolutely can access this information without a warrant. They're just pinky-swearing that they're not doing that. Also, getting a warrant form the FISA court means absolutely nothing in terms of ensuring that the access is constitutional.
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That One Guy (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:10pm

Re: There is nothing unconsititutional
The FISA court? You mean the one that has never told them 'no' on any of their requests, and is therefor worse than no court at all, as it allows them to claim that there is a check on their power when there clearly isn't, that court?
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Bobdobalina, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:13pm

This FBI guy needs what I call a good ass whopping, so many people are blind or refuse to see the Truth. It's all in the Bible of what's to come. Also with NSA and FBI and Big Brother saying *It's Preventing Terrorism*, it's just a curtain. Terrorism is a bunch of bullshit, they just say that because it's their only excuse to keep you form knowing why the Real Reason behind is. Sucks that Martial Law is in our Life Time, but all you can do now is stick together and be smart.

There needs to be a Revolution every 100-150 years - Ben Franklin
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YesNoYesOk, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:25pm

Re: yet they are correct
What is a criminal?
LAW MAKES US CRIMINALS! So lets pass laws to make us all criminals so we can just skip to the end of this "AGENDA" and live peacefully behind bars.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:30pm

when did we decide that kgb tactics were useful against our citizens? first they tap and gather info on anybody that may have remotely been connected to an organization, flag people as possible terrorists, and run programs hoping to trap and trick some into committing crimes so they can arrest them.. i give as example of my latter point, the statements made about the bombing suspect after the marathon bombing in boston. the fbi stated that they were in contact with a "friend" of the older brother. they stated he was interested in joining a terrorist group. they set said person up by giving him a fake bomb and telling him to detonate it near a bar.. he shows up and they arrest him after he does as THEY told him.. this is by definition entrapment. they contacted him. they lured him in. they "armed" him. they gave him the "target". then arrest him? how has no one caught on to this.. why did they contact him to begin with? because he called someone in his home country? not even.. he signed up at a website set up by them. that gives them the right to proceed entrapping him? from start to finish THEY are responsible for what happened. i would not even be surprised to find out that the bombing of the marathon was supposed to be another entrapment scheme.. they just lost control. the funny thing is that none of it would have happened if they hadn't started using such methods to begin with..
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 12:39pm

Beautifully said. Refreshing and true.
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Ben (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:01pm

Re:
Specifically it covers personal security which is the entire point of this amendment (and really the entire Bill Of Rights) to begin with.

The entire Bill of Rights? I'm not sure if the 10th applies
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
Although that closing phrase "or to the people" might qualify it. Just nitpicking.
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Bergman (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:10pm

Re: Connect the dots to create a terrorist
That would be fascinating to find out.

Something I'd find equally fascinating, is to learn how many successful terror plots of recent years were FBI-inspired that got away from their handlers?
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DavidC, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:12pm

Constitution in the way
That's how Obama feels and why he is trying to destroy the US Constitution. Fly your FBI drones over the White Hosue as the two biggest threats to the US are living there now!
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Jeremy, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:19pm

Then he should RESIGN. If it is too much "trouble" to obey the Constitution/RULES then he is a CRIMINAL. PERIOD.
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yourefuckingstupid (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:21pm

Re: yet they are correct
Your argument about criminals' ability to commit crimes quickly is horse shit, and the rest of your comment is nonsensical babble.
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Malor (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:25pm

Re:
Actually, the rules are set up so that the government can set up a wiretap instantly. Once upon a time, they could get permission from a court retroactively, but they're not even bothering with that anymore.
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dixiedog44, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:33pm

Gosh, it seems that this whole administration just does not care about or have time to consider our constitutional rights ... kind of like the Nazis!
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:37pm

Re: Scope
Maybe you do
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:40pm

Re: Constitution in the way
I disagree. As the most powerful branch of government, Congress is the biggest threat.
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hien, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:45pm

information send to fbi
information send to fbi about healh care , court and police by yahoo.comments.While much of the news coverage of FBI Director Robert Mueller's Congressional hearing this week focused on his admission that the FBI has used drones domestically, there were some other points raised, including his "defense" of the broad surveillance techniques that appears , what fbi goig to do about it? chapter fbi vs polices, court, and health care nures and doctors.FILE HEALTH CARE: This project healing all lives living forever pass is about a country, people living at this country name this country is USA United States of America, it is place on earth. The American is group of people find out USA land, information date at U.S history book, people stay work at USA (chapter immigrant) become USA citizens. American citizens vote for American government year before 1900.American politic basic beginners start with bills of right, right to do , acceptation, agree, refuse, cancel , freedom of express, speech ,writing , human right, right for normal people work , school pass final exam lives living forever perfection year 1700 chapter beginning of USA , politic from to USA government apply to USA and citizens with in USA only ,citizens vote for USA government by USA politics politic mean rules , laws already pass by a lots of people think is right pass, (by investigation 2013 of public study and puplic reseach from fact writtenbabout U.S history at public U.S library and school ). U.S.A build health care to help U.S.A citizens, immigrants, and visitors to visit U.S.A. as year 2000 to 2010 u.s immigrants and U.S visitors travel to U.S.A with permission, acceptation , agree, bills of right , social security, green card, id , driver licenses pass,( by who authorize USA to acceptation immigration ? Chapter immigration, travel export and import passport code bill of rights.). USA immigrates and USA neighbors , new USA citizens find out insiders USA :insider USA to state to city to health care to royal health care :situation insider healthcare ,people metals, people are not smart, people no money call lawyers, people have no white house (politic bill of right )next to them, nurses and doctors insiders health care make U.S patients ,US immigrants and U.S visitors get line to drink medication, by investigation ,U.S patients ,U.S.A visitors don�t even know what kind of medication nurses and doctors insider USA give medication to them ,they refuse to drink medication by bill of right of USA , nurses and doctors insider make patients drinks medication , they nurses tell patients have to drink medication then lets patients go home after 10 day , months , years depend each patients. They (nurses, doctors insiders U.S.A commit bill of right from USA ,chapter human right do, don�t or refuse need correction the turn in USA . )The U.S court state is the sender people to royal health care ,the driver drives people to that place, know direction to health care service is the U.S police (police is evident know how to get to that health care place,20 people insider that cases are citizens victim, citizens of what courtiers? some speak Viet ,American, English , Japan , Chinese , Mexican , middle east languages ,suspects nurse and doctor are represent as working for USA as represent, the outsider are the outsider neighbors innocent visitor leave that health care place only ,the rest of people (patients )keep insider those health care places to drink medication everyday 2 time a day, patients have to drink medication patients don�t know what kind of medication that is and they refuses to drink medications , checking patients get line drinking medication by nurses ,nurse said people have to drink medication to healthy , people refuses drinking medication reason they don�t know what kind of medication nurses give( bill of right people have the right to do don�t , accept , agree , or refuses. the medication is weird ,people insider have to drink 2 time a day , .as this situation USA sigh bill of right to protect U.S.A innocents, court USA ,and police don�t know or knowing keep against USA go politic bill of right protect innocents citizens as fact with in this story as show . Interview with Nurses and doctor insider said it is o.k. if State doesn�t support nurse and doctors insider those cases how they nurses and doctors get money insiders to do those kind of activity with in insider USA. those activity are those turn in to USA to correction (correction mean get education about bill of right ) insider USA VS insider USA BILL OF RIGHT protect the innocents peoples pass .the outsider neighbors innocents interview with patients insider earth USA health care , do all of you drink medication everyday , they said nurses and doctor inside REPRESENT work for USA make patients drink medication, when patients become normal healthy they can go home by sigh of doctors lets them go home ,every day patients drink medication 2 time at lunch and night before go to sleep , medication visitors drink is ( e pill ) making people awake and get dizzy the other drink medication up to 3 or 4 different kind of pill 2 time a day . Who care for insider USA solving best solution for USA are unknown, all cases file USA insiders USA need correction chapter make patients insiders drink medications bill of right investigation by whom?.the interview talk to the nurses and doctors do you know about USA bill of right , people have the right to do, dont , or refuse (human right) ? people refuse to drink medication is the people choise as bill of right laws , nurses and doctors represent as working for USA dont event care as show, doctor said this is health care people have to drink medication until patients getting healthy they can go home , they keep make people drinking medication insider healh care service, doctor and nurses said if you want to complain ,talk to USA states lets nurses and doctors doing those activity insider USA.what action states ,white house and court of USA going to do about those activity?.the only free (go home) leave that health care right laws are USA visitors neighbors outside innocent pass stay outside guard outside .solving complete all cases health care on earth perfection pass normal healthy living live forever help all living lives on earth healthy normal pass sooner, economy making infinity perfection real money perfection normal all pass . As investigation by licenses pass perfection,USA mean call those insider USA citizens go home they pass already final exam , stay insider U.S.A homeland are the best, should not go out side asking ,borrow USA guardian neighbors outside for mone , foods, lighters, cigarettes .people do right earn right on the journey pass infinity perfection lives living forver worlds . (Daily lessons pass USA insider, earth citizens insider need to learn, to understand, as innocent stay insiderearth work right pass and earn right pass prizes.) they insider represent police go out driveblack and white car start from insider USA driving out side to parking lots u.s.a call outsideru.s.a neighbors innocent stay outside while buy cigarettes, beers, food, stay outside guardingoutside go (port import export open and close open the earth gate ,close gate I p all pass )(fix ,correction, perfection here gate, )insider USA ,insider USA call you mean ( neighbor outsider USA) go insider USA to get money, healthcare, shelters, housing, mean tell them get this people USA citizen stay outside asking for neighbors outside money they go out get that people mean the outsider neighbors guard outside , buy food , cigarettes, stay outsite , as the translation call right people insider do the right pass I p all pass ,they insider USA suppose to call insider USA those stay in font USA store asking for neighbors money and those USA insider give stuff for outsider for money go insider USA , they insider USA have meeting civil right movement (mean people have the right to go home to help own family insiders earth and USA ,solving complete .as situation as show, problems need to be correction or it going to spread all health care on earth , investigation parents start making children drink medication even they refuses not to drinks medication .because of those fact with in this files people think their is something going on with bill of right VS USA health care , suspect are nurses and doctor work insiders cases USA health care , victim are patients need right medication , do , don�t , or refuse drink medication human right , they also set that up represent as USA workers blame to USA government support USA healthcare commit human right do don�t or refuse to laws suit cases file from year 2000 to 2012 as least 20 people patients victims been making drinkmedication by nurses and doctors before let them go insider those health care places considerworking for USA , aim at USA government lawsuit to supreme court , national court ,to the senate, to bill of right court USA government and states support money for doctors and nurses do those kind of activity with insider USA (REASON cause and effect TO SUIT president of USA AND those people work for government USA out of offices go on vacation from year 2000 to 2016 support by states insider USA supports money to nurse and doctors to do it to citizens, immigrants, and visitors , mostly those moving outside and those support moving outside don�t have pass licensesyet not agree yet) ,also investigation think some USA parents do make children drink medication at home even children refuse to drink by bill of right ,its spreading as disease or virus people allon earth health care making patients drink medications been find out by investigation , it need correction or it going to spread to all earth people healthcare services need correction pass byinvestigation those file the writer send those files with in this stories to cancer society help livehealthy and normal , but email to that place don�t work , the write call them up lets them knowtheir website email don�t work to send email donation medication for living lives living normalhealthy, they said mail to them , get paper write information , stamp and mail to them withfull detail , name and address, by investigation it need a lots of time to complete by mail ,stamp and paper need money , visitors don�t have money to spent, cancer society should not expect visitors have money to buy stamp and papers to send information to cancer society help live living healthy and normal pass, mail take days to complete and send , email only need the American society address , it take second send to places, also free email help people send free email to places ,the writer send next email to American red cross to lets them know the medication help people living forever healthy normal complete successful pass right licenses with rules ,laws , the writer find out American red cross do not have email to send free donation medication to American red cross (medication healthy normal living lives live forever) they only have phone,and donation credit card to money to American red cross, by public study and information American red cross is health care on the top lists of American public health care so whyAmerican red cross have no email for citizens and visitors to contact , to question, answers,complain, comments and donation medication to American red cross that is somethinggoing on with old politic 45 years ago already 20 century American red cross ,2014 is 21century already why don�t politic don�t apply email to American red cross to contact, questionand answer? Nurses and people work for American red cross don�t said any thing about emailto contact American red cross as web pages as show online (internet) the investigator said those are something going on with old polity ,they American red cross haven�t update and upgrade new policy using email ,and high technology easy for user to contact, they take money put in their pockets as show considers as work for USA healthcare and USA GOVERNMENT , IF old government politic haven�t said a world about healthcare need email for people to contact question and answer, donation ,and information to American red cross all the workers at American red cross remain sciences. The writer call American red cross let them know about the medication help lives living forever healthy, normal pass only find out by this writers with copy right pass laws the medication claim by this writer is the founder find out medication helping all living lives living forever normal healthy perfection pass only been acceptation and approve by system all infinity living lives live forever pass normal healthy perfection right local education with proof, fact, data, information, sure , real , true , answer, direction , rule, law, permission , explanation and agree .., :A: call polices,government, military, teacher, citizens earth for help solving better solution I p allpass(all with in solution, get more points I p all pass right normal healthy educationreason try to solving better solution all pass pas fact as show benefit ) . B: solve yourselfto pass infinity normal perfection (yourself I p all pass own benefits). 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dixiedog44, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:47pm

Re: Re: yet they are correct
Gosh, Anonymous Coward, We have moved WAY past that and have given other cowards, such as Holder and H. Clinton the ability to perpetrate their evils upon our nation with no real fear of reprisal! Your comment, in principle, is justified, but if you do not realize that this right has been bastardized by the people that use loopholes to circumvent the original intent of the right, then you seriously need help!
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John Fenderson (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:57pm

Re: information send to fbi
Yow!

You know, paragraphs are a thing.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 1:57pm

Re: yet they are correct
"As a side note, Mike, it's enough with the moderation already. If you don't like my comments, that's fine, but censorship? I didn't think that you had it in you. I have plenty of comments from the last few days (all valid) that did not appear on the site. Are you now down to censoring people because you disagree with them? Are you perhaps confusing multiple people are a single person, and blocking various anonymous commentators to try to swat one fly? It seems perhaps that you have lost the plot and fallen for the very tools of evil you rail against."

[citation needed]

Though I assume because of your status as a hard core republican dinosaur, that you don't know how to use technology correctly.
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Warbreaker, 20 Jun 2013 @ 2:27pm

Re: yet they are correct
Superceding the rights of the populace in order to "protect" us better is exactly the sort of thing the Constitution was set up to prevent. At the end of the day, we're all innocent until proven guilty, and what you're advocating is the opposite assumption.
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btrussell (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 2:31pm

�In this particular area, where you�re trying to prevent terrorist attacks, what you want is that information as to whether or not that number in Yemen is in contact with somebody in the United States almost instantaneously so you can prevent that attack,�

Yes, because they have pilots on stand-by 24/7 ready to take out some more towers. No further planning necessary. Just one call and it is done.
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Ian Elliott, 20 Jun 2013 @ 2:35pm

Perils of Circumventing the Constitution
From The Culture of Ancient Egypt, by John A. Wilson, p. 124:
"It would be pleasant if we could say that Egypt, having discovered the inherent value of the individual man, went on to give the concept greater validity and more effective force within the state. We cannot do so...When, under the national perils of the Second Intermediate Period and the aggressive nationalism of the Empire, the disciplined unity of the state became more important than the rights and opportunities of individuals, the concept of equality and social justice was finally swallowed up. This is the story of a people who once caught a clear but distant view of the Promised Land, but who ended up wandering in the Wilderness."
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Rick, 20 Jun 2013 @ 3:04pm

I also feel that filing income tax returns takes too much time.
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CHAD LAUDERBACK, 20 Jun 2013 @ 3:09pm

law
WHO'S THE BIGGER CRIMINAL, WHO BREAKS THE LAW OR PERSON WHO HAS TAKEN THE OATH TO FOLLOW THE LAWS AND UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION AND BEING PAID BY ALL OF US. SO HE ADMITTED, TO BREAKING THE LAWS, JUST DON'T STAND FOR THIS, FIRE HIM ,SEND HIM TO JAIL . TAKE AWAY THIS KIND OF POWER , THIS IS HOW THE SS STARTED IN WORLD TWO, AND IF WE CONTINUE THIS WE WILL HAVE CIVIL WAR AGAIN.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 3:09pm

Re: information send to fbi
Holy run-on sentence Batman!

Wall of text crits you for over 9000. You die.

The end.
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CK, 20 Jun 2013 @ 4:38pm

Rights
I hate the Government for destroying my Rights, Liberty, and Freedoms..
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 4:43pm

If they are so great at dot collecting why can't they collect enough dot's to vote in a budget after 4 and a half years or find out what happen at Benghazi or why every detail of Benghazi was lied about. Why hasn't anyone been held accountable that was in charge, I see you must have ran out of dot's.
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JMT (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 4:51pm

Re: yet they are correct
"If a crime can be committed in a second, but justice takes years..."

In the context of the 'terrorism' we're told this surveillance is supposed to prevent, neither of these statements are true.

"If you don't like my comments, that's fine, but censorship?"

There are commenters that are far more deserving of being 'disappeared' than you, and they seem to be commenting just fine. I think you overestimate your impact on this site.
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horse with no name, 20 Jun 2013 @ 4:55pm

Re: Re: yet they are correct
[Citation]

Every comment I make, even one as simple as this is "held for moderation". Many of the comments I have made in the last few days have either not made it to discussions, or appeared in the discussions so far after the fact as to no longer be relevant.

Mike and team made a simple mistake of assuming that I am the same person as another anonymous who went off the rails, or decided to just take the chance to shut down all opposition for while. Either way, it's censorship, just on a small scale.
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WAL, 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:04pm

I'm just following leadership
Well, I'm just following leadership..that's a common motto amongst us enlisted soldiers of the military. If the higher ups don't have to abide by the Constitution, then you've already given subordinates all the cause they need to do so in the same regard, not follow their military oaths. These oaths don't really mention anything that of a King, a Dictator, or a tyrant..nope, they certainly don't. They all mention that of a president, and upholding the Constitution of the United States, defending it from all enemies foreign, and domestic (those enemies also include a president who fails to uphold their oath and abide the Constitution). It took me a long time to realize that the war starts at the doorstep of every American's home. It starts right when you walk out that door. The freedoms you were told you were fighting for are the very freedoms the government is trying to take away..and a government that believes they could get away with doing whatever they want, despite what they've sworn an oath to and what the Constitution says, which they've sworn to uphold but didn't..they don't care. So, I and countless others have all the reason to justify having the same conduct considering the government is not any longer for the people, but for themselves. And being military never separates anybody from being a person. They're not going to get away with abridging the freedoms citizens are entitled to have from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There will be a revolution, and people are going to one day all wake up to take this country back by removing you all either through voting, or by due force as they had to do in Greece. And yeah, if you don't believe it can't happen just because you live in the United States, well..you're absolutely out of your mind and have already sadly been brainwashed by the propaganda into becoming the perfect citizen this very corrupt government wanted you to be.
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WAL, 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:04pm

I'm just following leadership
Well, I'm just following leadership..that's a common motto amongst us enlisted soldiers of the military. If the higher ups don't have to abide by the Constitution, then you've already given subordinates all the cause they need to do so in the same regard, not follow their military oaths. These oaths don't really mention anything that of a King, a Dictator, or a tyrant..nope, they certainly don't. They all mention that of a president, and upholding the Constitution of the United States, defending it from all enemies foreign, and domestic (those enemies also include a president who fails to uphold their oath and abide the Constitution). It took me a long time to realize that the war starts at the doorstep of every American's home. It starts right when you walk out that door. The freedoms you were told you were fighting for are the very freedoms the government is trying to take away..and a government that believes they could get away with doing whatever they want, despite what they've sworn an oath to and what the Constitution says, which they've sworn to uphold but didn't..they don't care. So, I and countless others have all the reason to justify having the same conduct considering the government is not any longer for the people, but for themselves. And being military never separates anybody from being a person. They're not going to get away with abridging the freedoms citizens are entitled to have from the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There will be a revolution, and people are going to one day all wake up to take this country back by removing you all either through voting, or by due force as they had to do in Greece. And yeah, if you don't believe it can't happen just because you live in the United States, well..you're absolutely out of your mind and have already sadly been brainwashed by the propaganda into becoming the perfect citizen this very corrupt government wanted you to be.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:08pm

I�m saddened and sometimes even really ashamed to be An American at times when our White House - is backing every Bill in Immigration legislation, And now
the way I�ve seen the United States in the last Fifty years going
downhill it�s one hell of a shame, Your Fuhrer Obama with his evil Empire and the U.S. House of Representatives all have been trampling on our �Constitutions Amendments one by one! and most of all The "First ,Second and now the Forth Amendment of our constitution and our " Bill of Rights�" and now this same Fuhrer that in the White House is everyday eroding are American position world wide by Spying on all Citizens as well as other Countries,
And getting his and our Noses into other Countrys problem wars and then Sending them Arms! Why ? Maybe it's just a Muslims way of #$%$ other Nations off big time� it�s our
economic, military position, as well as America�s influence World Wide is at stack and this needs to STOP!. This Buffoon at the wheel is desperately trying to conserve American power,
influence and our lower out total wealth for only his ideological Muslim reasons, he wants
this slipping to continue and I quote from a 14th century Byzantine
emperor as saying: �Islam had only brought evil to the world and that
it was spread by the sword.� Well guess what!
He also the architect and is doing it the very same thing to all the People of the World!
The Citizen of the United States will take back are Bill of Rights.
Dont let this Happen !
Pass this on to everyone!
Vote them all out Of Congress! Let them know that the Voters Rule!
Ant they have not done the will of the People!
Or have lived up to there Oath of Office they were to serve.
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R. Michael Rosensweig, 20 Jun 2013 @ 5:51pm

FBI cop out excuse
The FBI took the same oath as every service member, every judge, and every elected official, and every police officer in America takes when they join. If they weren't serious, then they should resign. It means what it means..But we all know from recent past that the FBI will violate their oath and just follow orders..ruby Ridge, Waco,Texas.. Both were a violation of citizens rights and many killed by them. No excuse for the murder of constitutional citizens..No gun laws are constitutional and need to be left alone and kept simple.. we the People are more able to protect ourselves and communities then the police and especially agencies are able to do. They need to stop enforcing unconstitutional laws and stop bowing down to fear mongering jackasses who call themselves leaders..It is a fear mongering media that have caused the assault on our rights..Not criminals in high places.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 6:39pm

Re: Let us not forget...
The worst part: they can change the rules any time they want AND interpret them as they please.
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Derrell Poole (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:01pm

FBI & Constitution
Have any of you ever read in the Constitution where the Federal Government IS authorized to have ANY type of a National police force? It ain't there!!! There is, however, the 10th Amendment, which says the Federal Government can only have the powers given to it BY the Constitution. (OH, Ouch Mr. Mueller! Now you Reeeeeally don't like it!) The Federal Bureau of Investigation is an ILEGAL organization! Who is surprised they find the Constitution inconvenient.

Oh, but we neeeeeeed the FBI. We need a national police force. We need a Civilian Army - according to Obie. (Yer right, Obie - its called the Well Organized Militia!) So did Hitler - until he decided he needed a Personal Police force (Remember? The SS took out the SA after that epiphany).

Do we? Do we need a National Police Force? According to the Constitution that was a power left to the numerous States! You can come up with all kinds of argument grounded in Security, Centralized Intelligence and efficiency, etc. The NSA keeps us safe by spying on us (what's a little freedom and liberty for Security as long as we keep it "safeguarded� from abuse... What was it Snowden called it? Turnkey Tyranny? Hmmmmm). The FBI catches criminals that cross State lines and international borders. The DHS protects our borders and keeps bombs off of planes (ROFLMAO!). The IRS steals our money (oh, yes, they ARE a police force!) FEMA builds Concentration Camps to hold who?

And the ATF! Well! We all know what they do! (Waco, Waco...)

Good Gawd! Do we also not know our own First Principles? YIKES! The Purpose of a JUST Government is to protect our individual liberties - NOT to take care of us and protect us. Get this Fellow Americans; the United States was not designed to be run by PROFESSIONALS!

The FBI doesn't like the Constitution, oh my! None of them like the Constitution, wonder why�?
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Rosa, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:14pm

FBI/Constitution
Dial 1-STOP-323-NSA now
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fuuuuuuq, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:20pm

lazy
so because you're not only evil, but also lazy the rest of the country has to pay for it? Hmm.. I dnt think so assholes.
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:31pm

Re: yet they are correct
So you want to read more milky wilky comments? Is that what gets your rocks off?

Ah, well. What else can we expect from Mr. Mancrush-on-John-Steele?
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bugmenot (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:53pm

Obama does what he wants - you die
Yes, the Obama Administration has created the most corrupt administration in US History. All of his Appointees are talented LIARS and are familiar with the Chicago Way. There is a reason that there are massive numbers of murders in Chicago and that Illinois is bankrupt with high unemployment. Democrats, the Mob, the Russian Mob, the Cartels - they are all the same.
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dexter, 20 Jun 2013 @ 7:59pm

FBI & Obozo?
They started with very different principles, but end up leading �Fools� down very similar paths. Two had Principles of the cultural and biological superiority. Two had Principle of nationalism. Three had Principles of fundamental Marxism-Leninism (Hope & Change & FORWARD). Four monitored telephone lines, read mail, and planted informers. One monitored e-mails, phone calls, and social networks.
THE GREAT PURGE � eliminates anyone who threatens his power (all five plus The Clintons).
Relies heavily on PROPAGANDA to support his cause, all five.
Newspapers, radio and art glorified achievements and did not acknowledge their failures, all five.
Writers, musicians, and artists spied on, all five .
Religion attacked (Government meant to replace religion) all five.
One Mulatto spent millions to seal his past and became �� the Biggest Con Man in History��, Ralph Nader, June 2013. Who did Ralph Nader name? And who did Putin choose?
Choose best answer: A) Adolf Hitler aka Schicklegruber, B) Benito Mussolini aka Duce of Fascism, C) Josef Stalin aka Joseph Dzhugashvili, D) Barry Hussein Soetoro, aka Barry Sutoro, aka Steven Duham, aka Barock Hussein Obama aka Harrison J. Bounel (died in 1981), and uses a Connecticut-issued Social Security # 042-68-4425 � a state Obama had never lived and has no association, E) Vladimir Lenin aka Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov
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Vince, 20 Jun 2013 @ 8:22pm

Really...
So inconvenience is now a basis for ignoring the law. GTK.
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techflaws (profile), 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:19pm

Re: Re: yet they are correct
I think you overestimate your impact on this site.

That was the understatement of the year.
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wgaffid, 20 Jun 2013 @ 10:42pm

Re: POTUS
i think you used tu letters tu many in your description of this person
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Robert, 21 Jun 2013 @ 3:01am

Easy or Hard
Here's a hint for all those corrupt three letter agencies.
Criminals, why do they do what they do because every other method just takes to much god damned time.
Upholding the law is never quick nor easy and it takes a whole lot of time and effort. Now that's a choice either be a criminal searching for the quick, easy and dirty method or be an upholder of the law, you method being slow, hard and clean.
Honour, integrity and pride of workmanship, don't come easy and that's what gives them their true value.
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:16am

FBI, following the Constitution
Guess they forgot their own Core Values:
Our Core Values http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/quick-facts

RIGOROUS OBEDIENCE to the Constitution of the United States; (caps are mine)
Respect for the dignity of all those we protect;
Compassion;
Fairness;
Uncompromising personal integrity and institutional integrity;
Accountability by accepting responsibility for our actions and decisions and the consequences of our actions and decisions; and
Leadership, both personal and professional.
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stormerF, 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:40am

Re: Scope
Especially when you know which haystack all the needles are in.
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:42am

Re: yet they are correct
If you want fast (yet not always correct) "justice" there are many countries in this world that has that, with Dictatorial Tyrant countries usually being the quickest to "implement" corrections on any who displeases them.

The USA was created so that the people are protected, because in all countries throughout history who quickly distribute their brand of justice many innocents paid with their lives. Study history - real history.

This country was founded on the radical concept that individuals have natural rights that cannot lawfully taken away or modified. That PROVING that the person being charged is extremely important, requiring: a reason for thinging they might be guilty of a crime, lawfully signed warrants describing the crime/item/area to be searched & specifically what looking for, lawful warrant for spying/tracking/serching/ etc, not incriminating oneself, representation, innocent until PROVEN guilty in a court of law to be judged by ones peers - remember the charges itself - against the person - is/are also being tried by that group of jurors; that it is not only guilt or innocence of the person but is the "law" one we even want in our nation (called jury nullification), etc.

No, the police do not need to be on an "equal footing to the criminals" in the manner you are meaning. They are on an equal footing: training, weapons, technology, etc - but the USA is NOT a "police state" like Nazi Germany, China, Russia, etc where they (police, military, representatives, bureaucrats, guy next door make the decision of life and death, guilt or innocence - not LAWFULLY anyway. Nor do most Americans want that type of life here.

This is the ONLY nation where individual rights are PROTECTED by the supreme law of this land; the US Constitution and all the is in PURSUANCE THEREOF it. Where it is the peers who decide guild or innocence, not a cop, military, representative, etc.

Read the Preamble to the Bill of Rights, notice that it adds ADDITIONAL LIMITATIONS with FURTHER DECLARATORY AND RESTRICTIVE CLAUSES on the federal government to the US Constitution (Bill of Rights):

Congress of the United States begun and held at the City of New-York, on Wednesday the fourth of March, one thousand seven hundred and eighty nine.
THE Conventions of a number of the States, having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, IN ORDER TO PREVENT MISCONSTRUCTION OR ABUSE OF ITS POWERS, THAT FURTHER DECLARATORY AND RESTRICTIVE CLAUSES should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best ensure the beneficent ends of its institution.
RESOLVED by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America, in Congress assembled, two thirds of both Houses concurring, that the following Articles be proposed to the Legislatures of the several States, as amendments to the Constitution of the United States, all, or any of which Articles, when ratified by three fourths of the said Legislatures, to be valid to all intents and purposes, as part of the said Constitution
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:44am

Re: Re: Let us not forget...
Not lawfully
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:47am

Re: Re: Re: yet they are correct
Mine are held also. But I figure it is because I quote the US Constitution, laws that apply, even the FBI site itself. Don't forget, at this time they can be unlawfully shut down for allowing free speech, so I understand them being careful.
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That One Guy (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 6:49am

Re: FBI, following the Constitution
So, I'm not seeing a single value they actually still follow, way to stick to your core values guys! /s
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 7:13am

Re: Re:
Actually you are incorrect in this assumption: "It's the courts' job to keep telling them 'no' when they try to (or do) violate our rights."

They do take training concerning the natural rights of the people guaranteed by the US Constitution and state Constitutions (or did). They only have to know the Bill of Rights and apply it to what they are doing to know if what they are doing is lawful or illegal. They also take an lawfully required Oath that they MUST keep to actually meet the requirements of the position they are occupying - will post applicable laws.

But shortcuts bypassing pesky things like warrants, "I don't like this person's attitude so I am going to teach him a lesson", unlawful orders from "superiors" or "officers of higher rank", unlawful presidential orders - for which THEY can be/and have been held accountable (yes, there are precedents and yes, presidential orders can be and have been found to be unlawful), make it easier to do what is unlawful here because it is "easier" at that time.
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KBright (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 7:20am

Re: Re: Re:
Applcable laws to Oath, rights (besides the US Constitution and all that is IN PURSUANCE THEREOF which is the highest law of this land:

5 U.S.C. 3331, provides the text of the actual oath of office the three branches of our government, the military, all law enforcement, the heads of the States, all federal employees are required to take before assuming office.

5 U.S.C. 3333 requires the three branches of our government, the military, all law enforcement, the heads of the States, all federal employees sign an affidavit that they have taken the oath of office required by 5 U.S.C. 3331 and have not or will not violate that oath of office during their tenure of office as defined by the third part of the law,

5 U.S.C. 7311 which explicitly makes it a federal criminal offense for anyone employed in the United States Government to �advocate the overthrow of our constitutional form of government�.

18 U.S.C. 1918 provides penalties for violation of oath of office described in 5 U.S.C. 7311 which include: (1) removal from office and; (2) confinement or a fine.

The definition of �advocate� is further specified in Executive Order 10450 which for the purposes of enforcement supplements 5 U.S.C. 7311. An EO 10450 provision specifies it is a violation of 5 U.S.C. 7311 for any person taking the oath of office to advocate �the alteration � of the form of the government of the United States by unconstitutional means.�
Our form of government is defined by the Constitution of the United States. So according to EO 10450 and 5 U.S. 7311, any act taken by government officials who have taken the oath of office prescribed by 5 U.S.C. 3331 which alters the form of government other then by amendment, is a criminal violation of the 5 U.S.C. 7311.

18 USC � 241 � Conspiracy against rights: If two or more persons conspire to injure, oppress, threaten, or intimidate any person in any State, Territory, Commonwealth, Possession, or District in the free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege secured to him by the Constitution or laws of the United States, or because of his having so exercised the same; or
If two or more persons go in disguise on the highway, or on the premises of another, with intent to prevent or hinder his free exercise or enjoyment of any right or privilege so secured�
They shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and if death results from the acts committed in violation of this section or if such acts include kidnapping or an attempt to kidnap, aggravated sexual abuse or an attempt to commit aggravated sexual abuse, or an attempt to kill, they shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for any term of years or for life, or both, or may be sentenced to death.
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nasch (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 8:01am

Re: Re: Connect the dots to create a terrorist
Something I'd find equally fascinating, is to learn how many successful terror plots of recent years were FBI-inspired that got away from their handlers?

The FBI plots never involve real explosives, to prevent that kind of thing from happening.
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nasch (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 8:09am

Re: The Constitution and the FBI
It does restrict Givernment, but allows the people to prosper. It was intended that way. The Democrats have always hated this.

If you think this is a problem with Democrats and not Republicans, then you haven't been paying close enough attention.
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Anonymous Coward, 21 Jun 2013 @ 9:55am

Re: Re: FBI, following the Constitution
The FBI is like EA. Doesn't follow the core values. Still gets paid a fuckton of money for it.
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art guerrilla (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 11:36am

Re: Time to obtain records from Tel Co's
do you know who CAN'T get records of your phone calls ? ? ?
YOU ! ! !

that's right, i tried a couple years back, and they (windstream) were NOT going to give me MY OWN FUCKING PHONE RECORDS (i remember back in the day, where every bill you got had the listing of all the calls you made)...

i had to go up a bunch of levels *and* threaten a lawsuit to get *SOME*; and *finally* only got a list of records for specific days i requested...

what a sick fucking world, the ONLY person not 'allowed' to look at their own stupid phone records, is the person PAYING THE FUCKING PHONE COMPANY FOR THEIR PHONE...

dog damn how i hate the pukes; i'd throw all the phones in the nearest pond if SWMBO would let me...

art guerrilla
aka ann archy
eof
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art guerrilla (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 11:45am

Re: "Mission Accomplished"
funny that smedley butler isn't taught in our his story classes...
funny, that...
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ahow628 (profile), 21 Jun 2013 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re:
Being of a libertarian bent, I always interpreted that as meaning that things should be pushed to the lower tier of government when possible. Meaning, if the Constitution doesn't say the Federal government has jurisdiction, then you push it down to the States or lower.

Basically, always err to the people, not to the Feds.
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Joseph Ratliff (profile), 6 Jul 2013 @ 12:52pm

Re: Let us not forget...
And... two other items of importance here...

1. These "dots" could help connect you to other crimes not necessarily within the purview of the investigation they are running (even if you're completely innocent).

2. These "dots" help create "confirmation bias".
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Nov 2013 @ 7:16pm

Re: Re: Re: yet they are correct
Tanya Andersen. Google her name. Oh, wait, you won't, because you think search engines are teh evulz, and you won't believe anything that suggests copyright might be wrong.

Seeing how much you lie is a clear indication that you weren't spanked enough as a kid.
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jamie, 29 Nov 2013 @ 10:00pm

fbi and connecting call patterns to being a terrorist
ok -- yeah lets take a strategy that will call all telemarketing businesses a terrorist since they call thousands of numbers each day and the statistics of calling a criminal -- then again they are so annoying they could use some time in cuba
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