Bank Calls Customer Over Detected Bitcoin Transactions, Asking What They Were For
from the so-much-for-privacy dept
One of the key reasons many people support Bitcoin is that it's supposed to be anonymous, like cash. However, Sean Percival today wrote about how he received a phone call from his bank, because "they detected Bitcoin related transactions," and they asked him if it was for personal use or business. And, no, it wasn't because of some concern about fraud. Percival clarified that it was just about Bitcoin, and said they wanted to know about "a spike in activity" with merchants like Coinbase. He later confirmed that it was not even from the fraud department. Percival does not name the bank, other than to say that it's "one of the biggies." It will be interesting to see if this becomes a regular thing, and whether or not it'll become yet another path for government officials to try to track Bitcoin usage.
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Filed Under: banks, bitcoin, sean percival
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I imagine it's because of fallout from Bitfloor. They probably received some regulatory flack from that so they put new policies in place to put extra scrutiny on anything remotely Bitcoin-related.
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You can see the forms and their FAQ's here:
http://www.fincen.gov/forms/bsa_forms/
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Re:
It wasn't the fraud department that called him, so... no.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Oct 23rd, 2013 @ 1:54pm
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'Did you make that transaction?.
Note they should not be asking what it was for. Similarly the law should not be entitled to ask what a transaction was for without some evidence it was for an illegal purpose, and they can get a warrant.
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It can still be noteworthy, even if it's not a surprise.
Unlike the internet
Why make baseless insults and assumptions like that? It makes you look clueless.
the financial ecosystem proactively guard against people abusing their system and (potentially) breaking the law
Do you think that makes it okay to pry into how people spend their money?
You people
Who is "you people"?
have this perverse idea that everyone should look the other way and claim it's not their problem.
You should stop making assumptions. You know what it makes you look like. No one said that people should "look the other way."
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Re: Re:
It can still be noteworthy, even if it's not a surprise.
I guess that's one of the "eye of the beholder things"
"Unlike the internet"
Why make baseless insults and assumptions like that? It makes you look clueless.
The level of responsibility enforced upon or assumed by internet players is a joke. And any attempts by those players to assume more responsibility or lawmakers to require it are met with the shill screams of grifters and freeloaders.
"the financial ecosystem proactively guard against people abusing their system and (potentially) breaking the law"
Do you think that makes it okay to pry into how people spend their money?
I don't think asking people to explain abnormal transactions is unreasonable. When I was building my own house, I used wire transfers to pay various contractors and suppliers several times per week. I was told by my bank that no further transfers would be allowed until I explained what was going on. So I did. Case closed.
"You people"
Who is "you people"?
Techdirtbags. Thanks for asking.
"have this perverse idea that everyone should look the other way and claim it's not their problem."
Please Masnick. You pretty much made your career excusing pirates and grifters claiming that any enforcement is the sole responsibility of law enforcement and the operators of these sites cannot be responsible for the misdeeds of their users. Try making that argument in the banking world. The degree of money laundering would make 1980 Miami look like a flea market by comparison.
You should stop making assumptions. You know what it makes you look like. No one said that people should "look the other way."
Willful blindness is the fig leaf that almost all of the grifters rely on. They know what is happening but look away because it would squeeze their cash flow to have to examine and act on unlawful activity going on under their very noses.
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You're clueless, you always have been, and your comments on "internet players" are doubly ironic as you seem to go out of your way to post insulting misleading comments trying to convince us internet players of... something.
It isn't... when it's asked by the fraud department. If they don't think it's fraud of some fashion, they have no right to ask you how you spend your money. Suddenly making tons of wire transfers may be suspicious activity of fraud due to the sudden large expenditure. The fraud department will check with you (as they did with me when I had a sudden cash withdrawal in Las Vegas even though I'm nowhere near there.). No fraud department, no issue.
"Techdirtbags", stay classy.
You know, your argument would be alot more poignant if it didnt seem that law enforcement was willing to make up laws and break all forms of established legal procedure to go after these "grifters". It would be even better if regulatory capture didn't allow people to abuse the system in the first place, then maybe there wouldn't be so many "grifters" in the first place. Maybe you should go back to the prohibition and learn a thing or two.
Knowing something exists does not make one willfully blind. This has been debunked from you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
The end.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
Whether this is noteworthy is highly debatable.
You're clueless, you always have been, and your comments on "internet players" are doubly ironic as you seem to go out of your way to post insulting misleading comments trying to convince us internet players of... something.
By internet players I mean the large companies that operate the in that ecosystem. Not you in Mom's basement. Seriously? "us" internet players? Don't make me laugh.
It isn't... when it's asked by the fraud department. If they don't think it's fraud of some fashion, they have no right to ask you how you spend your money. Suddenly making tons of wire transfers may be suspicious activity of fraud due to the sudden large expenditure. The fraud department will check with you (as they did with me when I had a sudden cash withdrawal in Las Vegas even though I'm nowhere near there.). No fraud department, no issue.
It was not the fraud department. Since you apparently have never made a wire transfer, you may be unaware that you (at least a consumer account holder) must personally go to the bank and fill out a form and identify yourself. That's because once the money is transferred, it's gone. The personal appearance part is what guards against fraud. They wanted to know what I was doing, so I told them.
"Techdirtbags", stay classy.
Obviously the shoe fits in your case.
You know, your argument would be alot more poignant if it didnt seem that law enforcement was willing to make up laws and break all forms of established legal procedure to go after these "grifters". It would be even better if regulatory capture didn't allow people to abuse the system in the first place, then maybe there wouldn't be so many "grifters" in the first place. Maybe you should go back to the prohibition and learn a thing or two.
There are grifters because the consequence of illegally monetizing the creative output of others is pitifully easy. I don't know why you mention prohibition, entertainment isn't illegal. You can entertain yourself pretty well by simply paying for it. Try it some time, you cheap fuck.
Knowing something exists does not make one willfully blind. This has been debunked from you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
Oh please. If you seriously believe that Grokster, Isohunt, Kim Dotcom and others don't simply turn a blind eye to the illegal use of their services, then you're a bigger rube than I initially suspected.
The End
I somehow don't think so.
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Don't mistake your government for some caring benevolent entity. Don't confuse "law" with "ethical". That beast is not your God, it's not your father. It serves its own predatory interests and people like you are on the menu.
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Alright everyone, lets practice the correct answer
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"You people have this perverse" - Exactly who is "you people"? No fukwit... if I want to transfer 5k to someone to go buy a car/motorcycle/whatever its nobody's fukin business. Its absolutely priceless the hoops you have to jump through to get an actual error resolved so I don't think this is a loving protecting mother sort of thing going on.
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Re: Alright everyone, lets practice the correct answer
Someday the law of averages will catch up with them I guess.
-C
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Re: Alright everyone, lets practice the correct answer
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What sort of bank calls their customers and asks them what they intend to do with something they bought? That's just weird.
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While it hasn't come out yet, it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that the NSA is slurping up transaction data too. After all it is "3rd Party" information (and it is more hay to search for needles in).
I am quite certain that the banks want to destroy Bitcoins, they are a threat to their business model.
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I don't get it
I don't mean transferring dollars/euros/yen to/from a broker (like Mt. Gox) - obviously they can see that.
But once you have Bitcoins in a wallet, how can they tell if there are transactions to/from a wallet stored in your computer/phone/whatever? I can't imagine how this is even possible. Unless the wallet itself is stored with the bank? (Who would do that?)
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Re: I don't get it
Because the Feds have cracked down on cash deposits into Bitcoin, Coinbase is now the easiest method to buy and sell Bitcoins.
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Re: Re: I don't get it
So - the bank doesn't really know about _Bitcoin_ transactions - it knows about transactions between the bank account (in dollars) and a Bitcoin exchange.
That's totally different from what is implied in the original article - that banks (any bank) can detect when people exchange Bitcoins with other people.
I don't think that is practically possible. (I think it is theoretically possible, with a huge amount of computation, but not something trivial every bank can do.)
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Re: I don't get it
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And another Sheep rolls over...
Just tell the bank whether it was a legit transaction or not then be about your business by telling them its none of theirs.
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Big government has gotten way to intrusive into what is your private business and anything they can remotely claim might have a tie to drug or terrorism is enough for them to want their nose in.
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I think the summary is misleading
If a US person does any kind of international wire transfer using a personal account, the bank is going to ask about it. I think they're required to under money laundering laws.
I suspect this is all that happened here - the guy transferred dollars and got asked the usual questions (same questions he'd have been asked if he bought a house via international wire transfer).
Bank: I have to fill out paperwork about your transaction about...umm let me see...says "bitcoins". Personal or business? Etc.
Nothing out of the ordinary here.
(Personally, I don't think banks should be allowed - let alone required - to snoop this way. But I suspect this has nothing to do with Bitcoins in particular. Just the usual nosy snooping Feds, "Know Your Customer", etc.)
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Re: I think the summary is misleading
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Ever since, I've been waiting for a bank to ask me that question again...
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Bitcoin question
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Re: Bitcoin question
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