The Fact That The US Intelligence Community So Readily Admits To Fantasies Of Killing Ed Snowden Shows Why They Can't Be Trusted
from the scary-shit dept
We've mentioned things in the past like former NSA and CIA director Michael Hayden "jokingly" talking about how he'd like to put Ed Snowden on a "kill list" while simultaneously suggesting that the NSA should be a part of determining who to target. While some would dismiss this as a tasteless "joke" it seems like he's not the only one in the intelligence community with such thoughts. We just recently noted that reporter Steven Levy, who spent over two hours interviewing NSA officials, had said that they appear to have a real and passionate hatred towards Snowden.Now, Benny Johnson, over at Buzzfeed, has been able to get a bunch of intelligence community and military officials to comment anonymously, but on the record, about how much they want to kill Snowden, often including full descriptions of how they'd do it -- and the fact that they don't see any reason to support things like basic due process. The quotes are chilling.
“In a world where I would not be restricted from killing an American, I personally would go and kill him myself,” a current NSA analyst told BuzzFeed. “A lot of people share this sentiment.”While it may be understandable that those still on the inside of the intelligence community and the military have this emotional reaction to Ed Snowden, it actually helps to demonstrate exactly why the NSA cannot be trusted. NSA officials like to talk about all of the training everyone in the intelligence community has, and how it's "in their DNA" to protect the Constitution and the American way. The NSA official in charge of dealing with the Snowden leak even told Levy that if there was any abuse of the NSA's data, there would be "lines at the Inspector General's office here, and at Congress as well--longer than a Disneyland line." And yet... here are lots of those very same insiders who clearly are overcome with an emotional, rather than logical, response to the situation. They appear to have no problem tossing aside ideals like freedom, due process -- or even the 4th Amendment which Snowden was trying to restore support for. And instead of all that: they just want blood. They want to kill. They don't want a trial.
“I would love to put a bullet in his head,” one Pentagon official, a former special forces officer, said bluntly. “I do not take pleasure in taking another human beings life, having to do it in uniform, but he is single handedly the greatest traitor in American history.”
[....] “His name is cursed every day over here,” a defense contractor told BuzzFeed, speaking from an overseas Intelligence collections base. “Most everyone I talk to says he needs to be tried and hung, forget the trial and just hang him.”
[....] “I think if we had the chance, we would end it very quickly,” he said. “Just casually walking on the streets of Moscow, coming back from buying his groceries. Going back to his flat and he is casually poked by a passerby. He thinks nothing of it at the time starts to feel a little woozy and thinks it’s a parasite from the local water. He goes home very innocently and next thing you know he dies in the shower.”
Do people like that sound like the kinds of people you can "trust" to not abuse their power? Do they sound like people you can "trust" to not spy on people they don't like? They've already admitted that they're willing to kill someone they don't like just because they don't like him.
The article is chilling not just because of what these employees of the American public are openly discussing doing to someone who sought to inform the American public -- but because it shows the lengths they will go to to trample the American ideal and the Constitution, which they took an oath to uphold. They are directly admitting that all of that, all logic, all reason goes right out the window when someone pisses them off.
And that's the very reason why the NSA needs to be reined in. The people working there seem to be bloodthirsty and emotional, prone to lashing out and dismissing the very basis of the Constitution. After hearing those statements, I don't see how anyone in the NSA can possibly claim that the American public can "trust" them not to abuse the system. They appear bloodthirsty and eager to abuse the system.
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Filed Under: death threats, ed snowden, emotions, intelligence community, killing, nsa, surveillance
Reader Comments
The First Word
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So, what you're saying is...
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Re: So, what you're saying is...
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Would the hatred and death wishes would be anywhere near as strong if the target were an Edwina Snowden?
Damn straight they wouldn't.
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Re: So, what you're saying is...
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No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
"Google's CEO went to Abu Dhabi this week and preached. He sermonized about Google's exceptional virtue -- its indifference to profit and supreme trustworthiness. His speech should have been shocking. Except that delusional self-righteousness is now routine at Google."
http://gawker.com/5491756/six-delusions-of-googles-arrogant-leaders
Where Mike sez: "Any system that involves spying on the activities of users is going to be a non-starter. Creeping the hell out of people isn't a way of encouraging them to buy. It's a way of encouraging them to want nothing to do with you." -- So why doesn't that apply to The Google?
04:07:50[f-50-5]
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Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
Gov't should protect The People against corporate power, and historically HAS with anti-trust and regulation.
That's all been nearly dismantled, though, by loony "libertarians" who end up being pro-fascist, "privatizing" what used to be public commons. Gov't should be set against corporations, most particularly large ones, to harass and limit and see that they're actually honest, not just claiming to be. It's just another separations of powers as in the Constitution, setting one power group against others in order to protect We The People from unlimited power in a "free market". You can be oppressed by economic tyrants too: Techdirt runs items on it every day! But you can't make exceptions for ANY power center and let it grow without limit or regulation, not even your precious Google.
Just be consistent on the principle that ALL power is inherently bad, it's the KEY point to the freedom and fairness in civilization.
Libertarians are sneaky traitors in the class war who coax the poor into giving up all their weapons until like taking on helicopter gunships with bare hands, defeat is certain.
04:17:03[f-290-3]
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Re: Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
What we need are fewer simpler laws, but WE NEED THEM ENFORCED. We had laws that made the crash in 2000/2001 illegal, and the only one that got hung was the one that pissed off the NSA. Joe got what he deserved, the problem is no one else did. The same with the 2008 housing crash. How many of the Corporate officers in charge of the corporations involved got thrown in the klink? 1 I believe. He wasn't a top level officer.
What needs to change is the way we vote for our representatives in government, how long they stay, and what jobs they can take after serving their single stay in office.
We need to also put and enforce limits on who, how, and where Lobbyists can ply there trade. Corporations should not be allowed to fund any political cause, and should not be allowed to create or support any PAC's.
And on the subject of PAC's, they should have the same limits as lobbyists, and they should not be allowed to endorse specific candidates.
Also, many good candidates have been ruined by last minute slander campaigns. The laws against this are never enforced. This needs to change.
Remember the 4 boxes. The Soap Box, the Ballot Box, the Jury box, and the other box.
Also, We should break up the corporate media networks. They now control what we say and what we hear. They've turned this country into a really big stupid flock of Sheep, including you.
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Re: Re: Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
/pedant off
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Re: Re: Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
@ Anonymous Sneaky Libertarian, I agree with your stance on this for the most part, it's just that there's no such thing as a free market. It's constantly being distorted and segmented by corporate interests, monopolies and oligopolies. The rest, though, I agree with.
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Re: Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
Yes, the government is almost always the greatest locus of power around in a society, so should be regulated the strongest... but it's by far not the only such loci.
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Re: No one can be trusted with power. You're tacitly implying: gov't bad / corporations good.
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These NSA employees are PSYCHOPATHS. They don't deserve our trust. They haven't earned our trust. We shouldn't HAVE to trust them, under the Constitution. The Founders set up a system with check and balances for exactly this reason.
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Wow
The FBI needs to find this guy, buy him a ticket to Moscow, get him a passport, a syringe, and then arrest him for platting to kill someone.
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Re: Wow
And really? The **greatest traitor**? Not only overly dramatic, that line alone indicates someone who I want nowhere near my country's intelligence mechanisms.
Citizens who reveal abuses of governmental power to the public are practically the diametric *opposite* of traitors in my mind; in my books doing so is a heroic act... particularly considering the extremely grave consequences of putting egg on governmental faces in such a manner.
In Snowden's case, he's almost certainly sacrificed a life in the country both he and I was born and raised in and (if quotes like these are any indicator) quite possibly his *life* for the public good. It's quite unlikely that he'll be able to spend time with friends and family any time soon.
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Re: Wow
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You can't Trust...
Secrets are great for hiding things... good for dictatorships, but bad for a free people.
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the VERY INSTITUTIONS/people who have the most extreme powers and capabilities to ENFORCE THE LAW, are advocating breaking the law -and actually breaking the law- in a non-trivial manner for petty revenge fantasies...
um, did it occur to those einsteins that when they establish the illegal/immoral practices they have, that NONE OF THEIR LIVES ARE SAFE FROM ALL OF US ? ? ?
they have dispensed with law and morality for their convenience; how long before we turn those same 'principles' (sic) on them ? ? ?
fuckin' 'tards...
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Response to: blaktron on Jan 17th, 2014 @ 8:32am
No one has the right to take the freedoms, rights, life of another human being, period.
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The fact is they have already done this on foreign soil. The only thing stopping them from doing so here is a willing administration. The military has already shone they have no qualms with killing anyone, including American citizens, without trial.
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Who watches the watchers
A law for thee, but different for me.
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NSA's power base
The NSA is a military-run organization. That is, the guys who are in charge of it are military generals, admirals and the like.
It is under the jurisdiction of the Department of Defense.
Their employess, for the most part, are also either ex-military or current. Contractors are usually also aligned with the military, and the mind set of 'kill the enemy' comes from that mindset: "Shoot to kill anyone who doesn't look friendly."
So, they're thinking in combat terms. Not that it makes it any better, but more understandable.
However, I do agree with the statement that anyone thinking about killing fellow Americans should be subject to discharge immediately and not allowed to ever hold any kind of security clearance in the future.
This is not Russia, from what I can remember. We do have laws to govern our behavior-even though the NSA seems to thumb their noses at them.
They'd best behave better or else face a Congressional hearing on what they've been doing. For real.
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Protip:
Do NOT nurture that feeling for months until it develops into an obsession.
And most importantly, always remember that "I want to murder that guy so much I've started drawing up plans for how to kill him" is not the sort of thing you should mention to a reporter.
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Re: Protip:
Sure, you may find yourself in a situation that requires you to take a life - but in such cases that implies necessity for some concrete goal (for example, keeping yourself un-perforated by a knife). Desiring someone's death for the end result of simply that is... not something I want in my public servants.
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Sounds like terrorist talk
Why are they still free and employed? I thought we had a 'War on Terrorism'?
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Nope: he's 30 (Now I'm feeling old...), so you'll have to wait until 2020.
And, hell, unless he does something massively inappropriate within the next six years or a really remarkably candidate arises... I'm seriously thinking I might write him in for that election. To my mind he's demonstrated an attachment to principles and a willingness to sacrifice from himself that I appreciate in a chief executive.
That it would make heads explode all up and down the NSA's ranks would be a nice bonus, too...
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Has 1984 been placed in Non-fiction yet?
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No. But, then, I'm not a violent psychopath.
And, even if I did say that at that moment of extreme stress, that's entirely different than saying the same thing months later to a reporter.
That you don't understand that is astounding.
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The NSA may be deserving of criticism, but, quite frankly, articles like this do nothing to foster constructive dialogue.
Jeez...
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urine idjit (or enn ess ehh bot)...
come the revolution, i know which side you'll be on...
traitor
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I count on it! Those are the moments when you learn something about what they are really thinking. A we've learned that here.
The point isn't that this is indicative of a plan to murder Snowden. The point is that this sort of thinking, all by itself, reveals a great deal about what is wrong with the NSA.
It also reveals that at least these particular people are incapable of behaving in a professional manner even when they are speaking to a reporter. Since these are people who are entrusted with extraordinary power, such a lack of professionalism is intolerable.
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People in this position should:
1. be mature enough not to act like hormonal teenagers
2. understand laws and the constitution
3. act with a much higher standard of responsibility in what they say and do than people who offhandedly say idle threats
If you want to make offhanded idle threats against someone who many regard as a hero, who has self sacrificed to start this debate, then resign your position of responsibility and make all the idle threats you want. Choose one.
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I know I've never thought such a thing, let alone said it. I would seriously worry about someone who, in a moment of stress, immediate expresses a desire to murder.
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I don't know about the kind of people you hand around with, but I've never had a conversation with anyone, let alone multiple people, using the sort of language quoted above. What they're saying a long way from normal angry responses. For you to not be even a bit worried about these people's attitudes say a lot about your own...
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Jan 17th, 2014 @ 9:27am
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But if you're saying this about somebody who just uncovered YOUR abuses of power to the public, then indeed, it does make you unfit for belonging to a government agency.
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Yes, he hurt *them* - the NSA, who may have to take a few for the team, aw shucks. I think they've earned that one.
Hurting "the intelligence community" != hurting America or it's security, necessarily. They used to do some good work, I'm not so sure any more if we all wouldn't be better off with some major restructuring. And that's how and why they are so butt-hurt about Snowden - they might have to do that and some fiefdoms wouldn't survive.
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Swear an oath to uphold the Constitution... nah, I'll pass
But like everyone is saying, if people at the NSA see nothing wrong with violating the 4th amendment, why not break the 6th amendment and any others that will help their cause? And like any other fanatics, there's no reasoning with them: Snowden is a traitor and he must die.
The other question is whether these people think he should be killed as a punishment for what he's done or to send a message to any other would-be whistleblowers?
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You finally understand why the insecure, the cowardly, the sadistic and inner-disempowered join bureaucracies and power organizations: to abuse those who choose not to join these "power institutions." It may not be in their individual DNA, but a lifetime of conditioned self-loathing shows anyway.
Hence, the reason why these organizations need serious civilian and civilized oversight.
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Yep I see it know, the government keeps getting creepier and creepier year after year.
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Snowdenistas are Far Worse
But what some NSA individual spouts in his off hours isn't policy. There are checks and balances on that individual, starting first with his own agency, with numerous regulations, FISA courts, Congress, regular courts -- and the media. Everything related to Snowden has proceeded exactly by the books -- lawful extradition requests -- even very late in the day giving him plenty of time to run. He was never forced to flee to Russia and had weeks before his passport was revoked.
Meanwhile, the Snowdenistas themselves spout violent nonsense and what recourse do we have against them?
The other day a Tor developer told me on Twitter "Congress should go die in a fire." Really? Where's all the pearl-clutching from Mike about that?
More chilling, Jacob Appelbaum said in his 30c3 speech in Germany that he believes (wrongly) that NSA data collection is "like" the British writs of assistance, and the early Colonialist rebels shot them over this. Really? What's that supposed to mean? And yet no one blinked an eye.
Assange and Appelbaum called on sysadmins to rise up, sabotage their computers and/or leak more classified files. This is coercive, and leads to reckless violence, including placing troops in harm's way and revealing agents who are pursuing enemies legitimately. Appelbaum says he thinks it would be ethical to leak all these names of what he views as representatives of some lawless state and is only barely restrained from some ethical journalistic notion that is increasingly threadbare.
All of that is much, much more troublesome than some guy from the NSA in a bar spouting off. These are anarchists willing to use lies, force, and sabotage to change a system from a liberal democracy to a communist commune.
And for all we know, to take up another hypothesis, these bar leaks may in fact be part of a psy war technique to create a climate of intimidation to force Snowden to come home, with Myasnick is them helping. Happy?
Jillian York proudly told everyone she heard some NSA guy say something like this (God knows why she was meeting him in the first place) and she reported him. Good little KGB-style informant.
I see what kind of country you'd make America, Mike Myasnick, with all this talk -- like the Soviet Union. No thanks.
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Thanks for the chuckle 'comrade'
Out of the four examples shown, you've got a 'current NSA analyst' talking about how if he could get away with it he'd kill Snowden personally, a 'Pentagon official' talking about blowing Snowden's head off, a 'defense contractor' talking about how Snowden should be killed without a trial, and the final one practically fantasizing about poisoning Snowden.
Still, the rest of your comment was quite funny, and the communist angle is always good for a laugh, given the red scare has been over with for a few decades now, meaning it's rather lost it's punch.
A few gems I noticed:
' There are checks and balances on that individual, starting first with his own agency, with numerous regulations, FISA courts, Congress, regular courts -- and the media.
Yeah, if there's one thing that has been made abundantly clear through this whole mess, it's that for the NSA and anyone who works there, there is no 'checks and balances'(or at least they don't believe there is or should be).
The agency itself lies like crazy to cover up abuses, or just categorizes them as something else, the few regulations that are even remotely public they've been found to violate extensively, to the point you almost have to wonder if they think it's a contest or something, the FISA 'court' might as well be just another branch of their agency, given they approve everything put in front of them, and only know what the NSA tells them, and as for the public? They wouldn't know, or be able to protest against, the NSA's actions were it not for Snowden.
'Everything related to Snowden has proceeded exactly by the books'
Well, except for that one time they grounded a foreign president's plane because they thought Snowden might be on it.
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Who are we compared to them?
We are not important enough to make a decisive move that would change the system. A system in which we as citizens are 'under'-served and controlled merely existing to provide for the very few.
For me real question lies within our capabilities and possibilities- if there are any? Or if we can give up now, continuing to have this conversation in the public sphere but without eliciting any meaningful results.
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NSA doesn't need to be "reined in" it needs to be destroyed, root and branch
These scum need to be put in jail where they all belong. They do not represent the interests of the US working class; they represent the interests of the tiny US capitalist class that seeks to run the world as if it was their very own piggy bank. There is no more despotic ruling class on earth than the US capitalist class; and there is no more despotic government on earth than the US Government. This is not opinion, it is fact, and the historical record will bear this out quite well - if one is inclined to review it. Unfortunately, most Americans are not interested in learning the truth about "their" despotic gov't, and they resent being told about it as well. They prefer to pretend not to know - just like the "good Germans" under the Hitler regime. This will all end VERY badly for the citizens of the US; they can look at photos of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Tokyo and Berlin in 1945 if they'd like to know what the future will be like in the US if the US working class continues on their present political trajectory.
Workers of the World, Unite!
Independent Workers Party of Chicago
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Re: NSA doesn't need to be "reined in" it needs to be destroyed, root and branch
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Yes, I think that it's worrisome that someone we're supposed to trust as beyond reproach would discuss any such thing rather than remaining entirely on the rational path, and I think that it should be held against them. But I don't know that it supports this article's stronger inferences regarding their actual willingness to kill.
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Re:
The point of the article seems to have gone over your head. Let me repeat at least the title for you: "The fact that the US Intelligence Community so readily admits to fantasies of killing Ed Snowden shows why they can't be trusted."
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I'd like Obama to
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Trust the NSA?
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Why Snowden Isn't Just a WhistleBlower
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This again...
That whole schtick, the 'Their actions put lives in danger!' was tried with Manning too, and in the end it proved to be a complete and utter lie, nothing more than an empty emotional argument to try and sway the public and judges against the whistleblower.
Put simply, no one who's been paying any attention believes you lot when you cry 'Wolf!' anymore, because you've proven that you can't tell the difference between a legitimate threat to lives, and one that threatens nothing more than your authority, pet programs and cushy jobs, and that you are willing to constantly lie about the second, by claiming it's the first.
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Re: Why Snowden Isn't Just a WhistleBlower
Got a reference for that?
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Wow...
Essentially what this article is suggesting is that no one at the NSA can be trusted because a few low-ranking analysts made comments (most likely in jest) which were quoted out of context in another article. Leaping to the conclusion that the entire organization is comprised of bloodthirsty, mentally unstable individuals is completely unreasonable.
And the comments for this article amount to little more than a juvenile circlejerk.
I understand that many of you live in your mother's basement and are angry at your own lack of motivation and the disappointment that you have experienced in your lives, so naturally, you take it out on the faceless government organization of the minute, but really- I expected a little more cognitive acuity coming from you, or at least the ability to recognize bad arguments and media sensationalism when you see it.
Shame on you Tech-dirt. All you are doing here is rabble-rousing and stiring up more negative sentiment toward the NSA for the sole purpose of generating traffic on your website and increasing ad revenue.
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Re: Wow...
Joking that you'd like to spray-paint someone's car, or that you'd like to replace their shampoo with hair dye, that's 'jesting'. Talking about how much you'd like to kill or see someone killed... that doesn't even come remotely close to 'jesting', and the fact that you think it does shows a lot about you(in particular likely background and/or current employment).
As for the 'low-ranking analysts' bit, copy/pasted from above comment to save time:
'Out of the four examples shown, you've got a 'current NSA analyst' talking about how if he could get away with it he'd kill Snowden personally, a 'Pentagon official' talking about blowing Snowden's head off, a 'defense contractor' talking about how Snowden should be killed without a trial, and the final one practically fantasizing about poisoning Snowden.'
The rest of the comment, where to begin... 'juvenile circlejerk', 'live in your mother's basement', 'angry at your own lack of motivation and the disappointment that you have experienced in your lives'.
Gee, now where have we heard that kind of 'argument' before? Oh yeah, when that hack and NSA cheerleader Mike Rogers was trying to dismiss criticism against CISPA by claiming that people concerned about the privacy implications were teenages living in their parents' basements, and so 'didn't count'.
It was an insulting, pathetic, and downright childish 'debate tactic' then, and it still is, and the fact that you resort to it says plenty about you, none of it good.
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LOOK AT OUR GOVERNMENT CLEARLY
Christs...believes the reason we are all having our problems is the fact we are not worshiping the rich...these Secret Societies only are for the rich...and they will protect people within their Societies...and the NSA is within the CIA which is part of the group..."The Skull & Bones"...and by the way your Mafia controls all of the Utility Companies...and part of that is the computers that you are on everyday...that is part of the communication systems...plus the Gas and the Electric Companies...so, what is new...any President that doesn't belong to these groups have to watch how they handle things believe me or they would be killed by them...just like JFK was killed by the group..."The Skull & Bones"...old man Bush belongs to it and so did Lyndon B. Johnson...who had a hand into that...so, just go along and do the best you can each day to know that our government is full of different kinds of people and they don't believe in Jesus Christ or God...we have to go along with the system as is...so, that is why a lot of people like us...who would ever do such a thing we would be going to jail for real...but, Snowden, is with the NSA which is part of the CIA...and that is why nothing is being done...
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The Last Word
“