Zero Tolerance Nets Two 11-Year Old Boys Juvenile Criminal Charges For Bringing A Toy Gun To School
from the because-punishing-fakes-keeps-real-guns-out-of-schools dept
Zero tolerance weapons policies at schools continue to be ridiculous. Between Pop Tarts bitten into gun-like shapes and drawings of guns being treated as severely as the real thing, schools enforcing these policies (forced on them by the government's decision to tie funding to weapons policies) have slid into cartoonish parody of discipline.
In news that should come as a surprise to almost no one, two eleven-year old boys at a Flint, MI school were arrested and charged after bringing a toy gun to school. (via The Blaze)
Two Doyle-Ryder Elementary School students were arrested Wednesday after a “toy gun” was found at the school.The boys are now facing charges of disturbing the peace being brought by the county prosecutor. His statement seems to indicate he's filing charges as part of his ad hoc "scared straight" program rather than as a result of any danger they posed to their school.
The two male students were arrested on disorderly conduct charges about 8:45 a.m., Feb. 5, at the school at 1040 N. Saginaw St., according to a Flint police report. The boys were released to their parents.
Leyton says whether it's a real gun or a toy gun - this is still a serious matter.Because fake guns are real guns in the eyes of the school and the county prosecutor. And any child that can't see the difference needs to have it "brought to their attention" via criminal charges.
"It's always your concern that a young person can get his hands on a real gun and bring it to school. There is no reason to bring a gun to school. Bringing a gun, even if it's a toy gun, to school causes all sorts of chaos and I think these youngsters need to be brought into the courthouse and we need to get their attention so that's what we're going to do," he said.
No one involved in this incident seems to know exactly what sort of gun was being wielded by the students. Police called it a "toy gun." Superintendent Larry Watkins "believed" it was a BB gun. Prosecutor David Leyton simply described the gun as "orange and plastic." He also noted it was "inoperable."
Here's where the story diverges a bit from the usual "boys will be boys and play with toy guns and schools will overreact" narrative. According to the prosecutor, this is why the "gun" ended up at school.
Genesee County Prosecutor David Leyton says one of the boys had a dispute with a teacher and thought he would teach the teacher a lesson.I wonder if Leyton will see any irony in that statement as he prepares to teach these two students a lesson. If this is true, I don't necessarily have a problem with Leyton filing charges to address the threatening behavior (and not the supposed "gun"), but he should understand that he's perpetuating this mindset by doing so. So many people think the only way to reach people is to threaten them -- whether it's the boys with their "gun" or Leyton's hauling them to court.
Behind this slightly-more-ominous-than-most narrative lies the same old zero-tolerance thinking. (Note how much of each story is devoted to discussion of the "gun," as compared to a discussion of the students' motivation.) A gun is gun, even if it's plastic, orange and inoperable. An inoperable weapon can look exactly like an operable one, but an orange plastic gun doesn't look like a weapon -- it looks like a toy. Which is what it is. Yes, the chance that a student could get ahold of real weapon should be a concern, but overreacting to fake guns doesn't somehow prevent the worst case scenarios from ever happening. It just makes life more difficult for students who actually comprehend the difference between the fake guns and real guns.
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Filed Under: michigan, school, zero tolerance
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Yes, because using the full power of the law against weak, defenseless children for some child's play seems very honorable and right. I'd be ashamed in his place. In fact I'd have told the school morons to go fuck themselves and grow some skin while threatening to prosecute them for their own childhood "peace disturbances" that most certainly happened before they grew to be disgusting adults.
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Q & A
Who instituted this Zero Tolerance rule?
Why is a non-violent action being treated with prosecution rather than counseling?
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Re: Q & A
Needless to say, it's a nice hearty mixture of confusing correlation and causation and "magic thinking" (ie, the voodoo approach) and has generally been debunked every time there's a serious look at it.
But yet it endures in the form of Zero Tolerance; a fact with irritates me about as much as the "War on Drugs" and "War on Terror" does.
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Time for actual gun control laws
Since everybody is dead afraid of guns and this fear causes more and more damage, there are basically two ways out:
Ban them from private life, or make everybody including children wear them by default. While I have no doubt that the NRA would suggest the latter, it makes more sense to me to do the former as I don't see the point in making it too easy for children to make life-or-death decisions.
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Uh, no it doesn't. Drugs are illegal yet can be had on every street corner in America. Why would guns be any different? Gun control is people control. You ban guns, only criminals will have guns. And guess what? Criminals are criminals because they don't obey the law. Why do people not seem to understand this?
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Mind you we don't really want guns either so there is no demand for the supply.
The problem America has with guns is the mentality, there are many countries out there with easier access to guns but with far lower incident rates.
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Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
If we don't have guns, are we supposed to use harsh words?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
That's news to me. Citation?
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source: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/vt01.asp
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
In that sense, everyone was part of the "militia", but as the militia did not always exist in fact, that's sortof a meaningless thing.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/311
"The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States..."
It's part of the law passed during WWI to justify the draft. Mostly it remains as a curiosity.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
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'Mostly it remains as a curiosity.'Just like benjie
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
>
> That's news to me. Citation?
The Oxford English Dictionary.
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Bullshit. You didn't check anything.
The OED not only gives definitions in terms of the current vernacular, it also addresses historical usage. The OED does in fact define what "militia" meant when the US Constitution was written.
This is why a copy of the OED looks more like an encyclopedia than a dictionary.
Perhaps Adams, Jefferson, and the lot didn't realize that future Democrats would go all "Orwell" on them.
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
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Stop, or I'll say stop again.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
If we don't have guns, are we supposed to use harsh words?
GET A LOBOTOMY PLEASE Bengie
'to protect the USA from foreign invaders'
What fucking drugs are you on benjie darling?
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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
See, you just did.
Stands to reason, the people who like guns like guns. Having a problem and being a problem are very different. Gun culture wouldn't seem like a problem if you were part of it.
But the purpose of doctors is not to kill people, I imagine we would be screaming for "doctor control" if it was. Guns are tools for killing things. Yes, there are responsible users but there are too many accidents, impulsive responses and loopholes not addressed by current laws.
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Guns are tools for protecting me and my family's lives from meth-heads who have broken into our house.
Why should one person's fear of what someone MIGHT do be a basis for liberty? Zero tolerance is the Authoritarian way of limiting liberty.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Reality check: the way self-defense with guns works is primarily by killing people. In particular when you expect them to carry a gun as well.
More people are killed by policemen with guns than by terrorists, and almost never anybody goes for jail with that.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Try telling that to anybody who's ever inflicted a non-fatal gunshot wound on a home invader, see what kind of answer you get.
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Yes, guns can kill the scum that is breaking into your house, but...
Meth-heads did break into our house in AZ, not hypothetical...had to fire at them to stop them. No one was hit, but sent them running (Self-defense without killing, dickhead)...police were 10 min away, caught them the next day after they terrorized a different family (police described them as armed, meth induced robberies, 3 in total).
What, no counter argument to "fear of what someone MIGHT do as a basis for liberty?"
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I live in this S*it hole called Brazil, we have strict gun control laws here and do you know what happens? Only the law-abbiding citizen is unarmed. Every other scumbag has guns and we have no means of defense.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
I think you're putting way too much stock in "what makes the news".
Your comparisons don't really make sense anyway. We don't decide how to deal with something based purely on how dangerous it is, but also on how beneficial it is. If we could easily get by without ladders and there were thousands of people falling to their deaths from ladders, you could make a strong case for banning ladders. As it is, there are a lot of jobs we need ladders for, so there are warning stickers, OSHA training, etc. to try to keep people safe, and then we accept that accidents happen.
The debate about guns is whether we need them, or whether they're beneficial enough to outweigh their harm. And of course in this country the 2nd Amendment has to be taken into consideration as well.
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Exactly!
Two criminals held up my brother at gunpoint demanding his wallet, before he even had time to reach for it they shot him. Using his legal concealed carry gun he was able to defend himself and returned fire. The two criminals are behind bars for a couple decades and my brother is alive.
The police are minutes away, when seconds matter that is just too far to rely on them for your protection. Every human has the right to defend themselves against harm.
Before anyone argues "but gunfights in the street, wrong!" remember the police return fire to criminals too and is no different. Allowing one group to defend themselves and forcing another to be defenceless is wrong.
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Because they expected him to carry a gun.
In civilized countries, robbery at gunpoint rarely results in death because the criminal has little incentive to actually fire a gun.
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Citation please.
Unlike your statement, what has been documented is that violent crime has been dropping for many years while gun sales and concealed carry permits have been climbing. Correlation = causation? Maybe not. But what you can't say is more guns = more crime.
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I live in Brazil, (One might argue that this is not a civilized country, but that's another matter) a place where there are rather strict gun control laws (to the tax paying, law abbiding citizen, mind you) and People in my country get killed by robbers while being held at gunpoint all day. Hell, in my home city (Sao Paulo), our murder rate was higher than Iraq's when there was a war going on there!
In here, criminals are always 100% sure that neither their victim or a fellow passer-by will be armed to respond in kind. Add the fact that the police here is a joke... And you have all the crap ready to happen.
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Your thinking is as bad as those who want to ban guns.
Seems the only way some people can discuss an issue like this is to exaggerate their position. Sad.
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
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Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Guns are restricted in the UK, not outright banned.
http://www.marplerifleandpistolclub.org.uk/general/gunlaw.htm
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Re: Re: Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Hand guns are banned from private life in the UK
You said:
Citation? Stop making things up.
Guns are restricted in the UK, not outright banned.
Wikipedia says:
Gun politics in the United Kingdom: 1997 Firearms Act
Following the Dunblane massacre, the government passed the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning private possession of handguns almost completely. Exceptions to the ban include muzzle-loading "black powder" guns, pistols produced before 1917, pistols of historical interest (such as pistols used in notable crimes, rare prototypes, unusual serial numbers and so on), starting pistols, pistols that are of particular aesthetic interest (such as engraved or jewelled guns) and shot pistols for pest control. Under certain circumstances, individuals may be issued a PPW (Personal Protection Weapon) licence. Even the UK's Olympic shooters fall under this ban; shooters can only train in Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, or abroad (in Switzerland, in practice).[71]
162,000 pistols and 700 tons of ammunition and related equipment were handed in by an estimated 57,000 people - 0.1% of the population, or 1 in every 960 persons.[72] At the time, the renewal cycle for FACs was five years, meaning that it would take six years for the full reduction of valid certificates for both large-calibre and .22 handguns bans (because certificates remained valid even if the holder had disposed of all their firearms). On 31 December 1996, prior to the large-calibre handgun ban, there were 133,600 FACs on issue in England and Wales; by 31 December 1997 it had fallen to 131,900. The following year, after the .22 handgun ban, the number stood at 131,900. On 31 December 2001, five years after the large calibre ban, the number had fallen to 119,600 and 117,700 the following year.[42] This represents a net drop of 24,200 certificates. Comparable figures for Scotland show a net drop of 5,841 from 32,053 to 26,212 certificates,[73] making a GB total net drop of 30,041. However, while the number of certificates in England and Wales rose each year after 2002 to stand at 126,400 at 31 March 2005 (due to a change in reporting period), those in Scotland remained relatively static, standing at 26,538 at 31 December 2005.
Registration, confiscation, in other words, a de facto handgun ban.
Care to correct your mistake, or do you want to keep making things up?
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
Put down that poptart and step away from the blackboard.
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Re: Time for actual gun control laws
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That is a very tiny part of the problem. Far more people get killed by handguns one at a time than are killed in shooting sprees.
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As many have stated before. The criminals that use firearms to commit violent crime are not going to respect any law that prohibits firearms. They aren't walking into a store and legally buying those firearms from respectable dealers anyway. The best thing we can do is truly educate people decide to own a firearm on what it means to own that firearm and how to use it properly and safely. That will decrease the accidents. That will also make it more likely that the the properly trained, armed citizen will prevail over the untrained, armed idiot criminal as well. As for the big shooting spree events, we need to stop giving them so much press. Mention it on the news and move on. Stop dedicating all of the airtime to bring every breaking detail when something happens. And for God's sake drastically improve the access to quality mental healthcare so that some people can get help before their conditions degrade to the point that they take such drastic actions.
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At what point in this country does abusing the law translate to "scared straight"?
I'm okay with the school saying "no toy guns, boys. Go home and take a suspended day" but the prosecutor should be immediately fired for abusing his authority to get his constituents to toe a line that's criminally insane.
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Trends happen for a reasons but statistically never for moral high ground.
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Private prison corporations do not have any qualms about this, in fact they would like more of it. Contracts at the state level guaranteeing prison population levels are a huge conflict of interest, but the investors do not care.
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Pen guns
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Job applications, travel abroad, rental applications, many volunteering applications etc - they will have to disclose these arrests for their entire lives.
Or even if the record is sealed they will probably have to disclose it's existence. Typical question when entering another country: "Have you EVER been arrested?"
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Or they will outsource the job to the magical fairies so they can stop the random shootings?
Because taking kids toys will not save anyone
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Less is More
With all the current problems of authorities abusing their positions of power, we should be considering less. In this case we're talking about a boy with a toy being prosecuted. Has our society gone mad?
The War on Drugs has not only failed to stop drugs, it has become a yolk on our shoulders with it's enormous and ever-increasing budget. The War on Terror has equally been a heavy burden with scant results. The largesse of all the "security" agencies for no tangible effect is staggering. Is this really how people want our society to progress?
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Re: Less is More
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Just some random thoughts
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Re: Just some random thoughts
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Re: Just some random thoughts
'bare arms' = wearing a tank-top
'bear arms' = packing heat
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Re: Re: Just some random thoughts
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Re: Just some random thoughts
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Re: Just some random thoughts
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Re: Just some random thoughts
Remember to protect the rights you like and enjoy you must be "the bigger man" and protect those rights which you do not like or enjoy.
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disorderly conduct charges, Disturbing the Peace. for a toy gun. the saying used to be "some people's kids" with a disapproving head shake from side to side.
Now I just want to shake the adults until their heads fall off.
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Congratulations School Administrators!
In exchange for NOT having to use common sense and critical thinking, how much of a pay cut should you take in exchange?
After all, the police/courts are now handling matters of discipline, and as a result, you have fewer responsibilities of your own.
Fewer responsibilities = less pay, right?
Come on...a pay cut...for the children!
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Re: Congratulations School Administrators!
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It's a far different story in inner city ghettos, where a young boy's interest in guns is more likely to be interpreted to be a precursor to a life of crime in a street gang, and therefore an interest that must be discouraged at all costs. Since guns tend to be a "man-thing" - the fact that so many inner-city families are female-centric no doubt also influences the negative perception of guns in those neighborhoods.
TheBlaze.com article shows a picture of a boy who would be rather out-of-place in Doyle-Ryder Elementary School, where out of 393 students, 369 are listed as "Black, non-Hispanic".
http://findgoodschool.com/school/261452005118-DOYLE-RYDER-SCHOOL-FLINT-MI
Needless to say, an event like this would be infinitely more likely to happen in this or most any other inner-city ghetto school than in a non-black suburban or especially, a rural elementary school.
It seems part of an all-too-common tendency of the press (perhaps in the name of political-correctness) to ignore or downplay important racial issues that should be regarded as central to the story -- as in this case -- unless of course it serves some sort of agenda.
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Re:
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Re: Re: racism
Is it 'racism' to notice that these draconian "zero tolerance" laws (of all kinds) tend to be applied most forcefully in minority inner-city areas?
Is it 'racism' to notice that the press often neglects to mention the race of a person charged with a crime when they report the story -- even when his race was in all probability a major contributing factor that he was charged at all?
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Flint Community Schools
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Re: Flint Community Schools
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What law was broken?
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Weapon
noun \ˈwe-pən\
: something (such as a gun, knife, club, or bomb) that is used for fighting or attacking someone or for defending yourself when someone is attacking you
: something (such as a skill, idea, or tool) that is used to win a contest or achieve something
I Don't See Toy listed here.
I guess they could have possibly hit or threw the toy gun at someone. I think a history book would probably hurt more though.
Another ridiculous attack on our kids, no wonder there is so much attitude in children these days.
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I had one class with a particularly oblivious teacher. I think he'd reached the point where he really didn't care much any more. An older kid who was friends with someone in my class wandered in one day and the teacher let him stay. The teacher gave us stuff to do and then mostly sat up front reading. While he wasn't looking, this older kid was using the temporary sheetrock boards over part of the windows as a target for a rather large throwing star. I'm talking about one of the nasty 4-pointed ones that are about 4-5 inches across with knife edges on the points.
I always had a small pocket knife in my jacket pocket. Admittedly, it was dull and broken (the blade didn't lock, it just sort of flopped back and forth) and had a bunch of other implements on it.
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Re:
I always carried a pocket knife as a kid, even to school. As a Cub Scout/Webelo/Boy Scout it was considered "Being Prepared".
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Laws for the sake of dumb people still can't make dumb people smart apparently.
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No guns, no fucks and no taxes
It's like the approach to fucking. If you don't fuck you won't get babies and if you don't get babies the concept of abortion never enters the picture. Solution? Don't fuck. Riiight.
Guns, if you don't have one you can't shoot one and you can't shoot a person dead without one. Solution? No guns. Roight.
The "education" facet seems to be severely misaligned and malfunctioning to the detriment of our children and their future.
I'm not sure what prosecutors are being told to think these days but.. for fuck's sake - zero tolerance ruins children.
Prosecunting - Is not for the children.
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cunning strategy?
- zero tolerance for guns, real and fake.
- ridiculous application of zero tolerance, like in this story.
- publicise the existence of pen guns single-shot gun in shape and dress of a pen; Google for purchase or build instructions).
- call for a ban on pens in schools, due to gun danger.
- pens are banned, and replaced by computers in schools.
- bask in the succes, but hope that guns are not made in the shape of computers.
surely techdirt readers support this? [;-)]
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Re: cunning strategy?
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"Tire tracks all across your back, I can see you had your fun."
Performed on a "genuine Stradivarius strung upside down for a left-handed mother fucking genius."
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If you can't beat 'em, make 'em join you
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Zero Competence Policies
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