Police Chief: Not Wanting To Talk To Police Officers Is 'Odd'
from the and-following-a-woman-down-the-street-on-your-bike-ISN'T? dept
This insight into how police think the public should interact with them is certainly enlightening. (via this tweet and Amy Alkon's Advice Goddess blog)
The backstory is this: a woman was walking down the street when a motorcycle cop approached her, asked her if she lived in the area and if she would talk to him. She says his approach made her feel uncomfortable, so she refused and continued on her way.
"I thought that maybe he was flirting," she said. "I just thought it was odd, I thought it was odd. I wasn't really sure but I felt uncomfortable because there wasn't anyone around."This was followed shortly thereafter by the cop dismounting, chasing her down, tackling her and placing her under arrest. The police chief claims this arrest was for "walking on the wrong side of the road," (as well as "evading arrest" and "resisting arrest") despite the fact that the woman wasn't ultimately charged with anything.
She says she was worried he might not even a real cop, so she refused to stop and began jogging away from him.
"He just crept along beside me on his motorcycle and he started saying, 'Hey ma'am! I want to talk to you. Hey stop, ma'am! I want to talk to you.' Then my anxiety rose even higher," she said.
Even if the preceding events could possibly be dismissed as hearsay, or something tainted by false impressions and emotions, there's the police chief's responses to questions about this interaction.
Whitehouse Police Chief Craig Shelton says this:
Shelton says by law you're not required to stop and talk to an officer if there's not a lawful reason for them to be stopping you.But then he says this:
"Normally if a police officer pulls up, in my opinion, it's awful odd for somebody just to take off and not want to speak to the police officer," Shelton said.Yes, this may seem "odd" to a police officer, but it's not all that odd for citizens, even those committing no real crime (Shelton justifies the stop with the "walking on the wrong side of the street" crap) to have no desire to talk to police officers. A huge imbalance of power makes conversation uncomfortable. Anyone who's attempted small talk with their boss understands this. If someone doesn't want to talk to a cop, it's not odd, it's normal.
Only a cop -- someone who doesn't understand the strain caused by the imbalance of power -- would consider this response "odd." And when law enforcement officials use the word "odd," they actually mean "suspicious." (Hence this woman being chased, tackled and arrested -- all for "walking on the wrong side of the street.") Holding a conversation with a cop without somehow appearing nervous, fidgety or otherwise strained (all natural body responses that will be read by most cops as signs of guilt) isn't something many people can do. Knowing that these common reactions will only serve to "alert" cops to theoretical criminal behavior further exacerbates the situation.
Beyond that, there's the other assertions Shelton makes in defense of his officer's actions. First, he claims the cop's motorcycle and uniform clearly indicated he was a cop and not some bad guy seeking to do harm.
"The motorcycle has a patch on both sides of the gas tank. It's black and white and says 'Whitehouse Police,' and has red and blue lights on it," Whitehouse Police Chief Craig Shelton said. "So you have to take it for what it is. Do you think he's a Whitehouse police officer? Why would you think he's someone impersonating a police officer?"Why would you assume he isn't? Shelton is completely divorced from reality. For one, most people can't determine the difference between a cop and an impostor, especially if they're making active efforts to disengage from the interaction.
For another, plenty of cops -- real cops -- have been charged with rape and sexual assault. So, being a legitimate cop doesn't really eliminate the danger for a woman walking on her own with no one else around. Sure, this cop may not be a rapist, but I would imagine those who have been raped by a cop probably thought the officer who violated them wasn't a rapist right up to the point they were being raped.
The fact is that the woman probably would have extricated herself from the situation no matter what. A strange man -- in uniform or out -- persistently trying to get a woman to talk to him in an area with few other pedestrians is almost always going to be treated as a possible threat. It's the persistence that sets off the alarms. If you're rebuffed and go away, the threat subsides. But if you persist, whether you're just some stranger or a guy in full uniform on a police motorcycle, it will continue to push the needle toward "threat."
But that's the problem. Despite all of this, Chief Shelton just thinks it's "odd" the woman wouldn't stop. Shelton makes things even worse by making this contradictory claim.
Bonnette hasn't been charged with anything, but the entire incident was caught on dashcam video and Shelton says it will be investigated further. He also says Johnson acted appropriately and won't be reprimanded.There go the odds of ever seeing the video. Shelton has already cleared the officer ahead of his promise to investigate further. How does that even add up in his head? He's already made his decision. Unless, of course, he means he's going to investigate to see if any further charges can be brought against the "odd" woman who refused to talk to his officer until he had her pinned on the ground and handcuffed. But that would just be vindictive and surely the Whitehouse PD is above that. If that's not what Shelton meant, then the investigation he's performing will be open-and-shut, caged in by air quotes and quite possibly doing away altogether with the bothersome "open" half of open-and-shut.
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On paper vs. In practice
Shelton says by law you're not required to stop and talk to an officer if there's not a lawful reason for them to be stopping you.
And yet on the other you've got this...
"Normally if a police officer pulls up, in my opinion, it's awful odd for somebody just to take off and not want to speak to the police officer," Shelton said.
Translation: Though it's not technically illegal to not want to talk to a cop, if you, for whatever reason, don't want to or refuse to, you're automatically considered 'suspicious' and they'll find something to force you to talk to them, even if the 'talk' takes place down in a precinct cell.
And they wonder why even 'innocent'(in quotes because if they care to, there's enough laws they'll have no troubling finding something to charge you with) people don't like to be around police...
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Re: On paper vs. In practice
For all we know this pig had every intention of having his way with this poor woman... maybe he thought better, maybe he forgot his pills, who knows?
All I know is if this happened to me, I would be very very disturbed... and I'm a guy.
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Re: On paper vs. In practice
You don't need to talk to them,
even if under arrest.
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Re: "as long as you're the police."
everyone else is a criminal.
What we have here folks, is group think insanity.
And if you are not part of the group, you are
an 'outsider', a criminal, a potential terrorist.
A no-gooder. You are the enemy of the insane group.
"If you're not with us, you're against us".
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Re: Re: "as long as you're the police."
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Re: Re: "as long as you're the police."
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Predictive policing: I predict that you will resist arrest, which is a crime; therefore, I am arresting you.
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Alliteration time
'Though you are not currently breaking any laws, I believe that if I tried to arrest you, you would resist. Since resisting arrest is in itself a crime, I will now attempt to arrest you for the crime of attempted resisting arrest, and use your attempts to object to your arrest as having no cause to justify the charge of resisting arrest.'
Truly, circular reasoning at it's finest.
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Re: Alliteration time
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Re: resisting arrest
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Re:
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Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
No matter how bad someone is, no matter what the job is, almost no-one will(or even can) admit, to themselves or others, that they even might be in the wrong or acting wrongly. The human mind is great at coming up with excuses so people don't have to face that they might be the 'bad guy' in a situation.
Unfortunately, when dealing with cops or others in position of power and authority, this can make things much worse.
I can't remember the quote, and I can't remember who said it, but the idea is that if someone is doing evil/wrong just because they feel like it, there's limits on what they'll do, even if it's just 'I'm bored with this, on to something else'.
However, if they truly believe that what they're doing, no matter how wrong, is in the 'public's best interest', the 'greater good', or the goal is good enough to justify their actions, then there is no limit at all, as they can justify any action with their 'good intentions' or 'noble goal', and since they so strongly believe in the rightness of their action(s), they will be unceasing in them, never stopping.
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
C.S. Lewis: "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their consciences."
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Re: Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
The Dems want to take care of you through Government Nanny-ism.
The Reps want to take care of you through Corporate Servitude.
Not much of a different but enough to divide people left and right apparently.
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
;)
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."
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Re: Re: Cops think they're the good guys. Even the bad ones.
[info][add][mail][note]
C. S. Lewis
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"How Dare You not Acknowledge Me!!"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237501/Thug-Michael-Ayoade-36-admits-punching-Tasneem-Kabir -16-unconscious-shocking-random-street-attack.html
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Re: "How Dare You not Acknowledge Me!!"
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Assaulted.
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Re: Assaulted.
After all, it was a cop, they'd never assault someone, so 'self defense' wouldn't even enter into it! /s
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Re: Re: Assaulted.
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Re: Re: Re: Assaulted.
After all, 'self defense' implies that someone was attacking you, and if that's not allowed as a defense, then it follows that what happened wasn't the defendant being attacked, no matter how 'similar' the action is to assault.
"The officer didn't 'slam the defendant against the ground', he was 'helping them to admire the details of the asphalt'. "
"The officer wasn't 'beating' the defendant, they were 'demonstrating how effective their exercise regime was at building muscle'. "
"No no, the officer wasn't 'kicking the defendant in the chest while they were prone on the ground', they were 'demonstrating the quality of their footwear'. "
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Assaulted.
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Re: Re: Assaulted.
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Re: Re: Assaulted.
Vital facts were disallowed in his courtroom, such as the video of McMillan having a seizure after her struggle with the officer and Officer Bovell's record of police brutality.
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Re: Assaulted.
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Re: Assaulted.
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Re:
While I don't know much about what happened, and I doubt, based on what I did read/watch that it was; there are times in which walking on the wrong side *is* a safety concern and thus may be an infraction. If the video shown on the news report of the location is correct, there is no sidewalk separating pedestrians from traffic, but also, it looks like a low-speed residential area (looks like a single lane of traffic with a lot of grass to walk on, so walking off the road shouldn't be much of a problem.)
If you are on a high-speed highway, with no shoulder and no sidewalk, walking on the same side of the road as traffic (the right side) is *extremely* dangerous. You cannot see traffic coming from behind and cannot react to get out of the way if traffic doesn't happen to see you. I know CAVC 21956 limits it solely to this situation, and thus you can walk on any side of the road you want unless you fit into this very specific situation. Of course, California is not Texas, and the rules are likely different. I am not sure how much help walking on the left side would have been in this case when the road is so narrow...cars driving the opposite way are easily visible no matter what side you are on, and cars behind you are going to be just as invisible.
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Re: Re:
"despite the fact that the woman wasn't ultimately charged with anything. "
Just because she wasn't charged with anything doesn't mean she didn't break the law. Perhaps the police don't think it's worth pursuing further. The police, at least to some extent, may have sympathized with her fear that this might not be a real cop (even if they thought the fear was irrational/unreasonable).
and I do kinda agree with the OP here in that just because someone is wearing some uniform and carries some badge doesn't tell me if they are a real cop. Anyone can get some fake badge and what average citizen will be able to tell the difference especially if the person showing the badge doesn't give the viewer sufficient time to see and analyze it (as a criminal may avoid doing).
"Shelton justifies the stop with the "walking on the wrong side of the street" crap"
I'm not defending cops in general and I criticize them when appropriate but this time I think Tim is kinda taking a one sided view of this. If the argument is that the cop used excessive force say that. But to suggest that she wasn't required to stop for a cop who was stopping her for breaking the law is silly. Breaking the law is justification for a stop (now if you want to argue the law is a bad law that's also a different issue). Otherwise we can all just ignore a cop whenever we break laws. That's not how society should function.
I'm not saying she's wrong either. I can see how she might get a little frightened if a cop pulls her over with no one around and she thinks the person might not be a cop. I just don't think this case is so clear cut against the cop. There may have been a misunderstanding.
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Lucky she didn't get shot
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Every day on the way to drop my kids off at school there's 2 police cars parked on the main road running radar. In the same spot. Why aren't you assclowns out doing real police work instead of revenue enhancement for the banana republic you work for? Aren't there any unsolved crimes you could be working on? Ones with victims, mind you?
But NO. Better to get your rocks off on your little barney fife power trip.
:puke:
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The thing about Barney Fife was
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The cops should be there to protect and serve the public and uphold the laws (including the Constitution). That's not what they're projecting, and should not be surprised when the public fears them. This cannot continue well for anyone.
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However, to the 'officers' that you do have to worry about, lest you find yourself eating asphalt or perforated, fear from the public is just another perk of the job; to those sociopaths having people fear them is yet another reason they took the job.
And to a point, fear does work to cow people and make them compliant, the problem comes if the fear gets to such a degree that people start fearing for their lives(already true in some areas), in which case they're likely to defend themselves if it comes to it, and should they be armed when they do so... well, things are likely to get messy, and the police are likely to find out that when fear reaches that point, the distinction between officer and 'officer' vanishes to those that believe their life is at stake.
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in 2011 33 donut eaters were killed by gunshots...
we do NOT know how many thousands of citizens were killed by kops (and it IS in the thousands) because the (in)justice department just doesn't think it is, um, you know, prudent to keep track of such insignificant stats...
BUT, we DO KNOW you have about an 8-10 times better chance of being killed by a piggy than by a real, honest-to-allah terrorist...
further, that 33 kops killed, that is the lowest since -wait for it- 1887 when the population was a FRACTION of what it is now... 18-fucking-87 when most of us were still down on the farm, guns were no where near as plentiful, etc, etc, etc... disgusting...
piggies are the 'protected' klass, not citizens...
oh, and to all the donut eaters out there: you kick my door down and shoot my dogs, YOU BETTER kill me on the first shot, or SOME PIG is getting their throat justifiably, rightfully, and righteously ripped out... POS immoral pigs...
biggest cohort of freedom-hating, constitution-ignoring, bullying motherfuckers on the planet...
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The officer had no justifiable reason to detain or arrest her as no crime by her or probable cause implicating her had been witnessed, nor any warrants against her issued.
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BTW, what it has to do with tech Mr Cushing?
I read more and more stories of people getting butchered by criminals and refuse to talk to police about it. What is going on?
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This site has been around for 15 years. I'd be more surprised if it hadn't expanded its scope.
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It's only because of modern "tech" that these stories and videos of police malfeasance get out to the world. Before the internet, they rarely even made the local news (OK, Rodney King was THE exception). And I lived in a town where the 'thin blue line' extended all the way to the newsroom.
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Some things never change. I've seen some hilarious trolling attempts like this one in an article back in 2005 (no, I wasn't around) so.. Yeah.
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Us versus them
Just consider how odd the police themselves would act if, for example, internal affairs or the FBI came around asking questions of them.
Isn't it shallow of them to neglect to notice the dichotomy?
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There, DONE. Problem solved.
Seriously, why is that so hard for so many police?
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Re:
and for her to say that she doesn't want to live in a town where something like this could happen to a law abiding citizen and that she 'hadn't done' anything wrong doesn't make sense if she broke the law.
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The chief has proven that he has his head up his ass
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Don't talk to the police
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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Stand up for your rights
The police chief should be tarred, feathered, and run out of town on a rail. I feel safer with the criminals.
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Get your car inspected, try not to be black, or any other color while in Whitehouse, Thanks You!
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It's time for .....
'Nuff said.
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police video of the arrest
http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid2448900020001?bckey=AQ~~%2CAAACHKYdcFk~%2CIG xDpm7wjyGbUapyNkzzpjGIvT6ibPno&bctid=3469010243001
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You've lost your way, not only as an LEO, but as a human being.
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1. Guilty of assault and battery. The "policeman" as perpetrator, the "police" chief as accessory after the fact.
2. Guilty of extortion. Apparently the "police" chief is holding the threat of charges over her head.
I thought Texas had some real men who could solve this kind of problem.
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Cops tackling women
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not talking to a cop
the cop belongs behind bars for the maximum amount possible
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No Voluntary Association
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Re: No Voluntary Association
Socially ostracizing them could only deepen this division. It could end up making cops even more predatory than they already are, and end up making it so that only bad people are willing to become cops.
What we really need is the opposite of all that.
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Re: Re: No Voluntary Association
Do you serve in Public Office somewhere?
The position of power attracts the bad more than the dynamic between the people and the police. This is why overtime all positions of authority devolved to evil without being constantly checked or cleaned up. This is just the nature of humanity.
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Re: Re: Re: No Voluntary Association
If that's what you take from what I'm saying, then I'm doing a really bad job at communicating my point. I'm not sure how I can be more clear, though. I'm not talking about anyone bending over backwards for anyone.
"The position of power attracts the bad more than the dynamic between the people and the police."
I agree. But that's tangential to my point.
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Re: Re: No Voluntary Association
Socially ostracizing them could only deepen this division. It could end up making cops even more predatory than they already are, and end up making it so that only bad people are willing to become cops.
What we really need is the opposite of all that."
Agreed with all but the word 'only'. I suspect that your mixed feelings have to do with the same. I want for the possibility...
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Don't you have to be told you're under arrest before you can be arrested or resist arrest?
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Cops...
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Stalking by any other name
1) Become a cop
2) Stalk
..
..
3) Score!
* From that perennial Law Enforcement Library favourite How to Stalk Women and Cop a Feel with Impunity
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doggone
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04/23/texas-farmer-calls-police-to-report-a-break-in-w hen-a-deputy-arrived-hours-later-his-nightmare-began/
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Too sad
"The man also revealed in the video that he had to drown his own dog to put her out of her misery because the officer didn’t shoot in a way that killed her. In the video, Middleton claims his gun was stolen so he couldn’t shoot Candy to put her out of her misery — and the deputy refused to."
"Middleton claims he had his dog’s body examined by a veterinarian and the results “suggest Candy was shot while retreating from the shooter.” Further, as reported above, the farmer claims the dash cam video does not back up what the deputy claims happened."
That criminal masquerading as a cop should be in prison, on murder charges.
R.I.P., poor dog. Really.
Why does this happen so often? Why does this keep happening when it shouldn't?
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Excellent Article
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Not Wanting To Talk To Police Officers Is 'Odd'
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Start at the top. work down.
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Question
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Police stop
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Welcome to East Texas!
Unfortunatly, you have to go into Whitehouse to get to Lake Tyler, so it is common for the Whitehouse PD to harrass people.
My advice, stay away!
Excerpt from book:
The non-fiction book Smith County Justice was written as an exposé of governmental corruption in the East Texas town of Tyler, the county seat of Smith County. Its publication sent shock waves through the political machine of the city of Tyler which then devised a plan for damage control. Shortly after its publication great pressure was brought upon the publisher to remove the book from circulation. The guilty authorities in Smith County have never acknowledged the evil of their ways or expressed remorse for the lives they ruined. Instead, legal and public relations firms have been engaged to mount a campaign to watch the used book markets for any used copies that might appear. Whenever such copies are found they are usually bought at whatever price is required and destroyed. As a result, used copies today have become rare and expensive. Eventually, almost all original printed editions can be expected to disappear.
Smith
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