DC Court Confirms That Government Agents Can Abuse US Citizens' Rights With Impunity If They Leave The Country
from the the-problem-is-that...-no-one's-ever-told-them-'no' dept
Your rights as an American citizen are null and void if you happen to be outside the nation's borders when those rights are violated. That's the gist of a ruling handed down by the DC district court last Friday.A federal court on Friday dismissed an American Civil Liberties Union lawsuit on behalf of a U.S. citizen who was illegally detained and mistreated by American officials in three east African countries in 2007. After fleeing unrest in Somalia, New Jersey resident Amir Meshal was arrested, secretly imprisoned in inhumane conditions, and harshly interrogated by FBI agents over 30 times before ultimately being released without charge four months later.The ACLU had argued that Meshal's Fourth and Fifth Amendment rights were violated by these FBI agents, but the court has found that there's no legal recourse available for Meshal. It even admitted that the allegations, along with the legal questions the decision itself raises, are "deeply troubling." Unfortunately, the district court finds itself unable to do anything more than dismiss the case.
The defendants have moved to dismiss his case, alleging that even if Mr. Meshal’s allegations are true, he has no right to hold federal officials personally liable for their roles in his detention by foreign governments on foreign soil.Except that it wasn't just foreign governments. It also involved US FBI agents who operated extraterritorially, operating in an area where they had no true legal authority to pursue or detain suspects. Any imprisonment was courtesy of local governments in three East African nations. The alleged torture, however, was All-American.
Despite it being held that Americans are not stripped of their rights when they leave the country, the court finds that earlier precedent finds in favor of the government thanks to the always-useful evocation of "national security" and "terrorism." (The FBI agents believed Meshal was connected with al-Qaeda.)
[I]n the past two years, three federal courts of appeals, including the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit, have expressly rejected a Bivens remedy for citizens who allege they have been mistreated, and even tortured, by the United States of America in the name of intelligence gathering, national security, or military affairs.The decision notes that courts have been reluctant to insert themselves in matters of national security, either in terms of military detainment or actions resulting from executive orders. This court is no different, although Judge Emmet Sullivan at least has the modicum of decency to note how truly screwed up this whole situation is.
The facts alleged in this case and the legal questions presented are deeply troubling. Although Congress has legislated with respect to detainee rights, it has provided no civil remedies for U.S. citizens subject to the appalling mistreatment Mr. Meshal has alleged against officials of his own government. To deny him a judicial remedy under Bivens raises serious concerns about the separation of powers, the role of the judiciary, and whether our courts have the power to protect our own citizens from constitutional violations by our government when those violations occur abroad.This is another win for the unsavory side of our government, which uses fear of terrorism as an excuse for all sorts of malfeasance and overreach. Rather than buck precedent, Judge Sullivan cites and follows, creating even more precedent that will make attempts to reverse this trend less and less likely.
As it stands now, the government need only claim it suspects you of terrorism to treat you however it wants once you leave the relative safety of the United States. No one is allowed to question actions performed under the color of national security. The State knows best and if you try to challenge its actions, you'll find that route has been blocked by bad precedent set in deference to executive branch FUD.
The ACLU completely understates its opinion of this ruling.
"It is a sad day for Mr. Meshal and for all Americans, who have a right to expect better of their government and their courts than immunity for terrible government misconduct."Oh, we certainly have the right to expect better. We just don't have any way of demanding it. That decision currently lies in the hands of legislators, a group that has also shown an appalling tendency to defer to national security fearmongering. Judge Sullivan knows this is terribly wrong but can't find a way to get out from under bad precedent. Here's hoping judges in the future can do better.
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Filed Under: constitution, rights, us citizens
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If he doesn't have to answer for his violence, why should the rest of us?
Reciprocity is a bitch!
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Huh?
This judge must have stopped listening to the news years ago since the qualifier "when those violations occur abroad" is just delusional these days.
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How does that work.
I guess what I'm saying is; If your physically on Mexican soil, regardless of who or where the people are from, should they not be following Mexico law?
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Re: How does that work.
Oh, and you are also apparently subject to Canadian law if you have any devices that use the internet.
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Re: How does that work.
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Re: Re: How does that work.
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Re: Re: How does that work.
Let me finish that for you...
The case highlights how the U.S. government, or its agents, interacts with U.S. citizens on foreign soil.
My question was; Would not all parties be subject to the law of the country they are in, not the laws of the country they are from?
I ask this because you could reverse this thing.. Lets say water boarding is legal in the U.S., but not in Mexico... if the FBI detained me and water boarded me in Mexico, have they not broken Mexican law even though we are all American?
I'm not saying what they are doing is right, I'm saying there may be larger implications.
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Re: How does that work.
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Re: How does that work.
The clear answer is "no".
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Re: Re: How does that work.
No.
can the US Government treat US citizens without regard for the Constitution just because terrorism
Yes, apparently.
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Huh?
This judge must have stopped listening to the news years ago since the qualifier "when those violations occur abroad" is just delusional these days.
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Even if the agents are outside of the US, they can and should be convicted for torturing *anyone* and not just US citizens. But that would require the government obeying its own laws.
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Re:
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Where does it say
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Re: Where does it say
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Re: Where does it say
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A Bill of Rights for Everyone
Yes, nowhere in the Bill of Rights it says anything about "citizens" (although, it refers to them in the constitution and other amendments regarding voting and such), it always talks about "people".
It's quite clear that this is what the authors intended.
And one reason I admire the founders of the United States, it does express such an enlightened spirit. Of course, the whole thing gets ignored, trampled on by lawmakers for decades and so on, but still, the spirit is there.
Of course, the USA can only enforce the Bill of Rights where no other nations interfere, but that absolutely means that it must follow it itself.
- The NSA spying on foreign people (not governments): Unconstitutional. (Note: This is also not about spying on terrorist-suspects: There obviously "but upon probable cause" applies).
- Holding people imprisoned without speedy trial in Guantanamo: Unconstitutional.
- Torturing (foreign or its own) people in foreign countries: Unconstitutional (Well: Theoretically allowed with a warrant and "upon probable cause").
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Way to pass the buck
I though the whole purpose of a judge was to be impartial and rule according to their understanding of law, not be biased towards their colleagues viewpoint which is not actual law.
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Re: Way to pass the buck
FTFY
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Re: Way to pass the buck
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you realize
Now, the foreign government may hold someone at the behest of the US, and may allow the US agents access to interrogate, etc. But they are held by the foreign government, under their laws and legal system.
If this guy has a complaint, he should take it up in the country that he was detained in.
Guess what? Your US rights don't follow you around the world like an invisible shield. When you leave the US, you leave your rights behind.
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Re: you realize
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Re: you realize
The first question is why a US investigative agency is interrogating anyone outside of this country. They are supposed to stop at the border and ask for the person back (extradition). Once back, a US citizen would have all of their US rights (oh, now I get why they didn't do that).
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Re: you realize
So yes, the FBI is bound by it, everywhere in the world.
It won't help you if you get interrogated by the GCHQ, but the FBI can't even ask the GCHQ to imprison and interrogate you without the FBI having a warrant and probable cause (at least, it can't do it without violating the Constitution).
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Re: you realize
This is wrong in so many ways.
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Re: you realize
And when they do, they're acting as the agents of the US government -- therefore my Constitutional protections apply.
"When you leave the US, you leave your rights behind."
Bullshit. When I leave the US, I am still protected from the actions of the US government by the Constitution.
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Re: you realize
But like every other situation involving the US Government, there's two sets of rules, one set for us plebes, a different set for those in power.
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Re: Re: you realize
Yes, but not if you choose to stay there. See, the difference is when you return, you are charged with "sex tourism", which is an offense that STARTS in the US.
I always find it cute when Americans think that their laws apply worldwide.
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Re: Re: Re: you realize
LOL! If our government wants a U.S. citizen back in the U.S., they have no problem breaking the laws in any country. They will snatch you up and ship your ass back to the U.S. in the middle of the night, black hood over your head... all signed and sealed by a court that you will never get to see, question, or in some cases even know exists. Our Gov is so above the law, that they will literally kill you with a machine from thousands of miles away, and do so legally. I suggest you open your "cute" eyes Mr. Whatever, our laws don't apply to YOU worldwide, but they damn sure apply to U.S. citizens, even if we never come back.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/20/ob ama-drone-strikes_n_5360746.html
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Sounds Good to Me
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Doesn't the plain text of the Bill of Rights trump bad precedent?
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Judges do not like to (and mostly shouldn't) go against legal precedent because it would mean they are effectively re-writing the meaning of a law. Rewriting laws is the job of another branch of government.
The exception is jury nullification - where a citizen jury acknowledges that a law has been violated but rejects the law itself.
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Constitution trumps precedent.
That means that if anyone tries to anything even remotely akin to what the Constitution says they can't, then it's unconstitutional, and therefor illegal to do.
That means that every law passed with regards to limiting freedoms, reducing privacy, restricting human rights has been unconstitutional and illegal.
Because those things that were done are so damaging to the people of the United States as a whole, they are acts of treason, with only one penalty that can, and should immediately applied to everyone involved with said actions.
That includes, but is not limited to, every member of Congress, Senate, SCotUS, PotUS, VPotUS, Joint Chiefs of Staff, Cabinet of the PotUS, NSA, FBI, CIA, NSA, HSA and any secret alphabet organizations that we do not even know the names of.
That's right, all of them are traitors, all of them have committed acts of treason either in full, or by not preventing their cohorts from performing those actions.
That means they all deserve the death penalty that is applied to traitors who commit acts of treason during a time of war, declared or undeclared, which we have been in since 9/11.
I hereby nominate Snowden for the replacement PotUS as soon as our current and previous ones receive their due punishment as dictated by law.
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Re: Constitution trumps precedent.
As much as I wish that were true, there are many parts of the Constitution that are vague and require interpretation. Also, when different Constitutional principles disagree with each other, someone needs to work out how to resolve the disagreement. That requires interpretation.
My problem with how the courts work is that they depend so much on precedent. It leads to lots of terrible things, and as time goes by court rulings depart more and more from what the Constitution actually says or allows.
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Is the reverse, therefore true?
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And I bet that
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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Great job, guys
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Re: Great job, guys
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U.S. Government just cut off it's own balls.
That also means those fancy badges are meaningless outside of our borders.
So attention all of you global governments - feel free to ignore the US with impunity because they said it themselves, their LAWS do not apply outside of their borders.
The Constitution trumps any law ever passed, any treaty ever signed, any executive order ever signed, any decision ever made by any judge.
If the Constitution doesn't apply outside of the U.S. borders, then nothing the government has ever said does.
That's the end of this discussion folks, our Government doesn't apply anymore, they are now inherently powerless once they leave the last piece of sand on our borders.
Gotta love it when the U.S. Government castrates itself publicly.
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This doesn't make sense
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Cowardice in the courtroom
Admitting that the situation is horrendous, knowing that what they're ruling is an affront to basic human decency and rights, and yet ruling against the victim of torture at US hands regardless...
That 'judge' and all those like them deserve all the scorn and contempt people throw at them, as they are a big reason the government feels it can do stuff like this, because they know no judge has the guts or integrity to stand up to them, and will cave the second the USG pulls out the ever so handy 'Because terrorists!' and/or 'Because National Security!'.
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Lickspittle
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The Bill of Rights as written expressly limits the powers of the US government, period. The limitations apply to what government itself is not permitted to do no matter where they are. I cannot possibly see how this can be otherwise without the courts, legislature, or the President creating new law above the Constitution in violation thereof.
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Arrest and Transportation
You just thought you had some rights.
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Why Should Americans Sufer due to the White House
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