NYPD Officer Chokes Man To Death; Cops Blame Cellphone Recordings And People 'Feeling They Have More Rights'

from the OBEY dept

Tue, Aug 12th 2014 3:36am — Tim Cushing

In the wake of Eric Garner's death via cop chokehold, the NYPD is coming under all sorts of additional scrutiny. This is in addition to the appointed oversight ordered by Judge Scheindlin after finding that elements of its infamous stop-and-frisk program were unconstitutional. Scott Greenfield has a very stark recounting of the incident, as well as a recording of Eric Garner's last moments. (Here's additional footage, which includes the officer who applied the lethal chokehold waving at the camera, as well as several officers gamely pretending Garner is simply passed out.)

The unexpected happened when the official medical examiner's report failed to find that the 400-lb Garner (who is heard repeatedly telling officers he can't breathe) had simply dropped dead of a heart attack or pre-existing health conditions -- something that supposedly would have happened with or without a cop applying direct pressure to his windpipe. Instead, the report contained a word rarely found in examinations following in-custody deaths: homicide.

The largest union within the NYPD -- the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association -- couldn't have been expecting that. But PBA president Pat Lynch still managed to find something spinnable about the entire situation, greatly aided by the convenient arrest of the cameraman on weapons charges.

The New York City Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, the largest union representing NYPD officers, said in a statement that it was “criminals like Mr. Orta who carry illegal firearms who stand to benefit the most by demonizing the good work of police officers.”

It wobbles horribly, but it still spins. Here's Scott Greenfield:

Come on, you have to be impressed by the statement. The problem is no longer [Officer] Pantaleo killing Garner, but “criminals like Mr. Orta who carry illegal firearms who stand to benefit the most by demonizing the good work of police officers.” This is poetry. This is genius. It was all about criminals demonizing cops, not cops killing people.

As nearly impossible as it is to "demonize" someone with an unaltered recording of their actions, Lynch found a way to at least attempt to flip the narrative. Orta is a criminal. Pantaleo is a police officer. Lynch's statement asks the public to choose a side. Do you want to side with criminals, or do you want to let bygones be bygones (including the occasional homicide) and side with New York's finest?

It may well be the reddest of herrings, the most irrelevant of questions, but it will be the focus of the attack on the video necessary to show how Police Officer Pantaleo killed Garner. And no doubt Lynch took a deep breath upon learning of Orta’s arrest, and how his tenure as PBA president was again secure by the opportunity to show that “police officers routinely risk their lives for the benefit of the community,” and so the least we can do in return is forgive them the occasional killing.

But it's not just criminals the police (and their supporters) are looking to, well, demonize in hopes of steering the narrative. It's everyone. Everyone who doesn't wear NYPD blue. (via The Honest Courtesan)

Under the misleading* headline "Why assaults on the NYPD are on the rise," the New York Post gathers the following quotes from NYPD officers, ranging from obnoxiously self-centered to truly heinous.

* How many people have been booked for assault for simply touching an officer or worse, being on the receiving end of a beating?

Assaults on police officers are up 4 percent this year compared with last year — a disturbing new trend that’s part of an emerging disrespect for authority on the street, cops and experts told The Post.

Disrespect, like respect, is earned. You can earn respect, or you can squander it. Disrespect doesn't arise on its own. If "authority" doesn't like this, it has ways of changing this. Unfortunately, it means making difficult changes and dealing with ingrained attitudes and prejudices.

“The biggest thing is that you’re going to see more cops get hurt, and that’s the sad part,” said one Manhattan cop, blaming it on the decreased use of “stop, question and frisk...”

This may be partially right but for the wrong reasons. When the NYPD could stop nearly anyone for no reason at all, it had basically ordained harassment and intimidation. With this gone, fewer people are going to keep their heads down and eyes averted and simply allow the police to shove them up against the nearest wall or bend them over the nearest squad car hood.

So, who's to blame for this rise in assaults? It's the citizens themselves, apparently. It's their fault that it's hard (or slightly harder) to be a New York cop these days.

“The streets are absolutely more dangerous for other people, too,” said the officer, adding the rise of cellphone videography is also problematic, since suspects “want to put on a show for the camera.”

(And cops don't want to be watched...) So, First Amendment-protected activity is part of the problem. What else?

“People feel they have more rights and they can’t be stopped. There is no respect,” said a Brooklyn cop, who recalled a recent arrest of an armed man who used the crackdown on stop-and-frisk as a reason to resist arrest. “People feel like they know the law better than we do.”

Too many rights for citizens. Also a problem. (And there's the demand for unearned respect again...) Maybe people don't know the law better than NYPD officers, but they can't go above the law, as officers do when they deal out excessive force, tell people to stop recording, hassle people for walking while black, or book people on bullshit charges simply because they don't like their attitude. All in all, the imbalance of power has hardly shifted. But to hear these cops tell it, you'd think the city was a half-step away from mob rule, with officers holed up in well-fortified precinct houses. All the NYPD is receiving is pushback it hasn't felt in years. And it's killing them. (Not literally, of course...)

Ideally, what can citizens do to ensure the (im)balance of power returns to normal?

Well, one Manhattan cop, using the citizen killed by an NYPD officer (homicide, remember?) as an example, says this is how citizens should behave when approached by police.

“Obviously, he resisted, and he could have avoided all of that by just going through the process,” another Manhattan cop said. “Everybody likes to point fingers, but no one wants the fingers pointed at them. If people think they are being treated unfairly, they should sue the city after they go through the process instead of resisting.”

"All of that" being shorthand for "choked to death by a police officer." New Yorkers should just submit to any form of police harassment and go through "the process," something that could easily give them a criminal record when they haven't truly performed a criminal act and then spend their time, money and energy fighting in the city's courts to have their grievances addressed and their good names restored.

This police officer is actually saying that people should just deal with cop bullshit and sue later. The only "right" you possess is the option to file a civil lawsuit. Cops, on the other hand, should be given free rein to act as they please, and when the lawsuit finally arrives, possibly be held accountable for their actions if the court somehow manages to find the officer(s) in question don't qualify for full or limited immunity.

A much better idea would be for the NYPD to make massive efforts to restore the trust and respect it has destroyed under Ray Kelly's "leadership." If you want respect, GO AND EARN IT. Demanding full compliance is something autocrats do, not public servants. You've forgotten who you actually work for. You don't work for the NYPD. YOU WORK FOR THE PUBLIC.

If the NYPD can't get that straightened out, then it needs to learn how to take a punch. It's certainly delivered enough of them. Every police department asks for patience while they investigate their own wrongdoing, but every cop starts swinging and/or shooting when someone takes a shot at one of their own. An officer kills a citizen and suddenly cops start fretting about the "antagonistic" behavior of the public. Have one cop simply think he hears gunfire possibly aimed in his direction and the wrath of an entire department will focus in that person's direction -- and it won't stop until every officer's gun is empty.

If the NYPD is feeling a bit more apprehensive about its interactions with the public after the death of Eric Garner, so be it. It's all earned. Maybe now they'll have the slightest empathy for the countless citizens who lived with this feeling day in and day out during the decade-plus run of stop-and-frisk.

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Filed Under: choking, eric garner, nypd, phone, recordings, weapons

104 Comments

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Rikuo (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 2:34am

You probably can't hear it, but I'm clapping at a well written article. Well done, Tim.
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- Michael, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:00am
  
  Re:
  Tim cannot respond because his windpipe is being crushed by one of New York's "finest" because of this blatant attempt to undermine the police force - clearly obstruction of justice punishable by a small fine and a severe beating.
  
  Should he not be able to begin breathing again after this incident, we can all rest assured that he is a scumbag criminal and it is ok.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:57am
    
    Re: Re:
    And everyone knows he had heart problems anyway. These things to have the most inconvenient timing.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:06am

Cops are out there acting like Gods, that their authority is end all be all to everything. They're allowed to create their own narrative that is taken as gospel truth even when there is hard evidence to the contrary. They are allowed to pass judgement on persons and that life is free for them to give or take away.
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- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:17am
  
  Re:
  This is why you should always have watchers that watch, yet are not compromised by being a part of the watchmen.
  
  Because it reduces the likelihood of this kind of thing happening.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Manabi (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:21am
    
    Re: Re:
    I have never understood why investigations of police misconduct are performed by internal police department units. Those should be done by an outside, necessarily antagonistic (the police will view it as the enemy, even if they shouldn't), entity that will actually try to find the truth, not whitewash things to get the officer back on the job faster.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:29am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      You mean like the DOJ is SUPPOSED to be doing? Ha!
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:15am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      U.K. practice is for a different police force to carry out the investigation. That way the investigators do not report to the same chief constable as those being investigated.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- art guerrilla (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:16am
  
  Re:
  the thing is, kops *ARE* being met with less respect, because they have EARNED THAT by being the enforcer goons of the state (read: korporatocracy), instead of the protectors of the 99%...
  they no longer 'protect and serve' US 99%, but ONLY the interests and 'values' of the 1%...
  and they are SURPRISED that 99% of us don't like them ? ? ?
  they are purposefully selected to NOT be the brightest bulbs in the bunch, so we are reaping the benefit of *that* far-sighted policy when the dumbos can't figure out they better get right with the 99% for when the hard rain comes...
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- Michael, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:01am
  
  Re:
  Cops are out there acting like Gods
  
  You misspelled "criminals"
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- alternatives(), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:05am
  
  Re:
  Cops are out there acting like Gods, that their authority is end all be all to everything
  
  They are treated like Lawyers when it comes to the Court system.
  
  A Lawyer can never "lie" in Court. They can only have misconduct of bar rules. So when an Attorney says X, the Judge has to take it as truth.
  
  Same with the Cops.
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  - Uriel-238 (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 12:23pm
    
    A cop can never "lie" in court
    You even have a name for it. Testilying. And then judges collude with you to secure convictions regardless of guilt.
    
    And then we throw the poor sods into corrections.
    
    Yeah, I wonder why the people hate and fear the justice system so much these days.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
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Whatever, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:19am

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, what part of that is so hard to understand? Do you think policemen would be pushed to exert deadly force if not for all the irresponsible pedestrians holding their devices out in public? If you don't want to be mauled by the bear then don't corner it.

Obviously criminals and pirates wouldn't understand.
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- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:32am
  
  Re:
  "irresponsible pedestrians holding their devices out in public"
  
  Is it illegal to record in public?
  
  As far as I am aware this is another perfectly legal act that you are trying to spin in to something illegal.
  
  The police are very often caught using excessive force and there is no excuse for that. (I know that you just want to contradict anything written on TD)
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:47am
    
    Re: Re:
    Poe's law ....
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:45am
  
  Re:
  The crime of walking down the street while minority.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:08am
  
  Re:
  Oiy, tell me about it. Why, just yesterday I saw someone jaywalking. Now, I told them not to do it, I even said that they were breaking a law doing so, but they just wouldn't listen, so unfortunately I had to gun them down(or in more technical terms 'Gave them a lead-assisted heart failure', since as everyone knows, those that break the law always seem to have weak hearts, ready to fail at any moment), to make an example and show what happens to those that ignore and violate the law.
  
  Now, some bleeding hearts might say that such a response was grossly disproportionate, but like you say, 'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time', they broke the law, they had to be punished.
  
  /s
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- audiomagi (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:54am
  
  Re: Whatever
  
  Whatever, Aug 12th, 2014 @ 4:19am
  
  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, what part of that is so hard to understand? Do you think policemen would be pushed to exert deadly force if not for all the irresponsible pedestrians holding their devices out in public? If you don't want to be mauled by the bear then don't corner it.
  
  Obviously criminals and pirates wouldn't understand.
  
  Lets try that again, shall we?
  
  Don't do the crime if you can't do the time, what part of that is so hard to understand? Do you think citizens would be pushed to exert deadly force if not for all the irresponsible officers holding their devices (read: guns) out in public? If you don't want to be mauled by the bear then don't corner it.
  
  Obviously police and prosecutors wouldn't understand.
  
  FTFY
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- G Thompson (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:13am
  
  Re:
  So if the bear (police) is/are cornered it's ok for it/them to disobey the laws then?
  
  Because that is EXACTLY what you are implying.
  
  Though troll harder next time, your image is becoming tarnished and you're looking more like a fuckwit who just tries to oppose everything more and more each day just for the lulz.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - nasch (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:18am
    
    Re: Re:
    Though troll harder next time, your image is becoming tarnished and you're looking more like a fuckwit who just tries to oppose everything more and more each day just for the lulz.
    
    I'll bet that's not the real Whatever. His points appear to make sense on the surface, while this is just raving lunacy.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:00am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      Plus, Whatever actually uses an account with an Avatar.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:25pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        It's not the first time he's been caught logged out to post shit though, and this sort of authoritarian cocksucking like the above looks right up his alley.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:23am
  
  Re:
  I for one wouldn't hire a bear as a law enforcement officer. Perhaps a rational human being with reasoning and personal restraint would do a better job.
  
  And yes, blame cellphones for the decline of polite society and for police officers committing homicide. I'm sure they probably caused the Holocaust too.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:55am
  
  Re:
  "Do you think policemen would be pushed to exert deadly force if not for all the irresponsible pedestrians holding their devices out in public?"
  
  How about "don't kill people in front of witnesses with recording devices"?
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
  - nasch (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:24am
    
    Re: Re:
    How about "don't kill people in front of witnesses with recording devices"?
    
    How about "don't kill people"?
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    - Michael, 12 Aug 2014 @ 10:44am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      let's not get out of control here. baby steps.
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2014 @ 6:41pm
  
  Re:
  Go get a room with kenichi tanaka, fuckface.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 3 Feb 2015 @ 11:25am
  
  Re:
  I wish we could take all the cops, all the people who love them and share their lives, and all of the people who sell them food, houses, and whatever else and just throw those people onto an island. Then sink that island. Then start over the police system with people who know that if they act like assholes the same will happen to them.
  
  You don't want to feel cornered? Don't go out in public acting like an asshole. Because I will corner you, I will sue you, and if I'm anywhere near my car I have a device recording your every move and uploading it to private storage using a hotspot. If everyone did this then cops would start acting right. I make sure to let cops know that I'm recording and uploading their actions realtime and I have no problems with pig-fucking shitheads anymore.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:22am

Cops don't deserve a union
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- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:45am
  
  Re:
  Yes they do , everyone does , but sadly the Unions get a bad rap because of this , can't blame the union for the idiot members.
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  - That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:00am
    
    Re: Re:
    You most certainly can blame them when they shelter those 'idiot members' though, protecting them from the consequences of their actions.
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    - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:11am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      How about this, LEO unions need to fully co-operate with investigations into officer wrongdoing, as well as allow for back-confiscation of earnings of officers that are convicted of wrongdoing.
      
      Even if 'suspension with pay' is necessary to not screw over the 'good' officers, there needs to be some sort of penalty in place...
      [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:08am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Simpler still would be make the LEO unions pay when the citizen sues the city over an officers' behavior. When they start to run out of money, and have raised their dues to equal the police payroll, they might back down.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        nasch (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:21am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        Simpler still would be make the LEO unions pay when the citizen sues the city over an officers' behavior. When they start to run out of money, and have raised their dues to equal the police payroll, they might back down.
        
        I like it. When police brutality hurts the paychecks of all the officers, you might start to see some cultural change.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
      - Manabi (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:26am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re:
        How about this, LEO unions need to fully co-operate with investigations into officer wrongdoing, as well as allow for back-confiscation of earnings of officers that are convicted of wrongdoing.
        THIS! I was just saying to someone the other day this should be done. If the public (and the officers) knew that the cop would be docked that back pay, then the paid leave wouldn't look like nothing but a paid vacation for misbehavior that it is now.
        
        They also need to be quicker to charge cops. As far as I can tell, the NYPD has yet to charge the cop in this case for murder even after the medical examiner ruled it a homicide. The managed to arrest the guy who filmed it though!
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
        
        Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:34am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
        I think we need to remove indicators that would allow a prosecutor or judge to know the occupation of the person being charged. If you took out the race, religion, job and or job status and gender, you would get a much more equal legal system. As is, that cop will never be convicted and if he is, would never get the same sentence as the dead guy would get if the roles were reversed in the death.
        [ link to this | view in chronology ]
    - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:42am
      
      Re: Re: Re:
      This is the correct argument, and was prosecuted (sucessfully, I might add) against those who intentionally sheltered child rapists in the Roman Catholic Church.
      
      The same should be applied here.
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  - talion, 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:32am
    
    Re: Re:
    Yes, you can blame the union.
    
    Because the union backs those idiotic members to the hilt, every single time.
    
    Unions do a lot of good things, don't get me wrong. I'm in a union, so is my wife. And our jobs are better because of the union.
    
    But especially when it comes to public sector unions, they go too far and back up those who the rank and file, if given a vote, would wash their hands of immediately. I'd be much happier if the union charter had a clause where some crimes/actions were beyond the pale, and that said clause was actually enforced.
    [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:16am
  
  Re:
  I blame the union. A local cop was fired after getting multiple right ups on excessive force and excessive tasing. The local police union got him his job back with back pay.
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- Roger Strong (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:05am
  
  Re:
  Get rid of the police unions, and they might be replaced with a Police Industry Association like those in the recording industry. They'll step in, grant themselves enforcement powers beyond what the laws or courts grant. They'll claim the right to license your rights to you, withholding those they disagree with.
  
  Like with recording industry associations, any claim of infringement on THEIR rights will end with YOUR rights being blocked automatically with no realistic way to appeal. Enforced by Ballistic Rights Management and a complete chokehold on....
  
  er, Never mind.
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- Anonymous Coward, 3 Feb 2015 @ 1:49pm
  
  Re:
  Cops don't deserve to live
  
  FTFY
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:25am

You're asking far too much
The losers who are part of the NYPD are nothing but gang members with badges. They don't understand respect. They don't understand public service. They don't understand honor.

They're just thugs who LIKE to kill people whenever they can find an excuse. That's what they do. Anyone in NYC could be their next victim, shot, strangled or beaten to death because the cops have a badge -- and a hundred fellow gang members who will lie about what went down. Not to mention a city that will back them, legally and financially.

An NYPD cop could pull out a gun and start shooting random people in Times Square, and the city would come up with some bullshit about how it was a "justified shooting".

The NYPD doesn't need to be reformed. It needs to be shut down. The city needs to start over, and it needs to start with police officers who know their proper place: they are public servants, who must obey the will of their masters at all times.

Yeah, that'll happen.
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- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:15am
  
  Re: You're asking far too much
  Reading this, I was reminded of the Sherlock Holmes story, The Valley of Fear. The NYPD seems to fit the role of the Scowrers; a gang that terrorizes the titular valley, but evades justice because they can always produce dozens of witnesses who will swear that the perpetrators weren't at the scene of the crime.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:14am
  
  Re: You're asking far too much
  FYI, PDs like to weed out the 'high IQ' officers during recruitment phase...
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
Judge Dredd, 12 Aug 2014 @ 4:53am

Mega City municipal code 4796: Illegal use of recording device. Automatic death sentence. How do you plead?
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- LduN (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:21am
  
  Re:
  "Not guilty!"
  
  "HE SAID GUILTY!!!" ::BANG BANG BANG::
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David, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:02am

"Why assaults on the NYPD are on the rise,"
There is a simple reason why assaults on the NYPD are on the rise, and that reason is that anybody who is beaten into a pulp by the NYPD is routinely charged with assault. Repeatedly beating someone into a pulp without filing an assault charge looks bad on the records. Also an assault charge makes it more prudent for the "perpetrator" (otherwise known as the victim) to make a plea deal rather than insist on a rigged jury trial.
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- That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:13am
  
  Re: "Why assaults on the NYPD are on the rise,"
  Talk about a situation ripe for blowback, if people are going to be charged with assault for the heinous task of bruising the fists of the badge toting thug beating them, then there's no real reason for them not to defend themselves, is there?
  
  They're getting charged either way, might as well earn it and get some payback against their attacker.
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  - David, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:06am
    
    Re: Re: "Why assaults on the NYPD are on the rise,"
    You are forgetting that abusive officers are cowards. They will assault only when backed up by other abusive officers. Score one surprise hit, and you are a dead man.
    
    That's not "payback".
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:11am

With every excessive use of power by a group , there's an equal push back by an opposing party , I wish these guys would study some history.
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Chris-Mouse (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:12am

Let me see if I've got this right. The fact that a police officer killed someone isn't a problem. The problem is a result of the officer getting caught killing someone.
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- That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:16am
  
  Re:
  Oh of course, if the cameras hadn't caught what happened, then the victim would merely have suffered 'an unfortunate heart attack', or something along those lines, it was only due to the people taking videos that he instead died to to being chocked to death. /s
  
  To murderers like that, and those that defend them, what they do is never the problem, since obviously they are always correct and justified in their actions, no, clearly the problem is those 'troublemakers' who dare to hold, and speak, a different opinion.
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  - That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:18am
    
    Re: Re:
    *choked
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Jeremy Lyman (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:52am

"the process"
As far as I can tell "the process" involves having your rights violated, all evidence destroyed or preempted, and the officer's version of events treated as gospel. I'm not sure how anyone would be able to file a suit afterwards if these thugs got their way.
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- David, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:40am
  
  Re: "the process"
  Well, if there is a group of police officers present, there is a plentitude of reliable and trustworthy witnesses. Additional observers, like unreliable and untrustworthy recording devices, will cause the facts to deteriorate.
  
  What may look to the untrained eye of a camera like an officer beating up a defenseless victim may require the trained eye of law officers to properly recognize as an assault on the police.
  
  Confusing the jury with visuals they have not been trained to properly process is disturbing justice and police work.
  [ link to this | view in chronology ]
- Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:16am
  
  Re: "the process"
  The long standing 'presumption' that police officers tell the truth has got to go. The standing before a judge should be equal, and perjury should be prosecuted, including lies by omission. Presenting anything without actual evidence, recorded interviews, DNA, video, fingerprints, you know evidence, should be disregarded.
  
  These rules should apply to the prosecutor as well.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:55am
    
    Re: Re: "the process"
    I fought a traffic ticket and the cop's account of the event involved flashing school lights that school employees and city employees all insisted did not flash at the time that I was pulled over. He also changed the bus in the story to be a school bus rather than a city bus. All of these details he made up served his narrative that I was being reckless in a school zone during a time when school children would be present. I showed in court that he either lied or hallucinated the lights flashing and showed that school wasn't out at that time of time and that a city bus was scheduled to stop at that intersection at that time, and the cop just said those details had nothing to do with it and waved it off that I showed that his narrative was unreliable. The judge said I most likely committed the violation, but he could see I was trying not to break the law so he gave me the reduced fine that I would have gotten if I hadn't fought the ticket. The judge doesn't care if you can prove that the cop is lying about something.
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    - DogBreath, 12 Aug 2014 @ 10:00am
      
      Re: Re: Re: "the process"
      The judge said I most likely committed the violation, but he could see I was trying not to break the law so he gave me the reduced fine that I would have gotten if I hadn't fought the ticket.
      
      Well, since you could see that the judge most likely pretended to care about upholding the law, you'll only arrange to give his house a SWATTING treatment, once a year for the next 5 to 10 years (reduced fine) instead of the 25 to life sentence you are supposed to hand out.
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      - nasch (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 11:16am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: "the process"
        Well, since you could see that the judge most likely pretended to care about upholding the law, you'll only arrange to give his house a SWATTING treatment, once a year for the next 5 to 10 years (reduced fine)
        
        The police probably know where the judges live, or they would figure it out after the first time, and not go back again.
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        DogBreath, 12 Aug 2014 @ 11:52am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "the process"
        The police probably know where the judges live, or they would figure it out after the first time,
        
        As we have seen time and time again, sometimes it only takes one "first time" to go drastically and horribly bad for the occupants.
        
        and not go back again.
        
        and that is when you take it up the food chain, and involve the state police, and then the feds. After all that is finished, just get the City of London Police to ban the judge from the internet.
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        Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2014 @ 6:55am
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "the process"
        As we have seen time and time again, sometimes it only takes one "first time" to go drastically and horribly bad for the occupants.
        
        Almost always goes horribly bad for the occupants’ dog, anyways.
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        Michael, 12 Aug 2014 @ 12:08pm
        
        Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "the process"
        The police probably know where the judges live, or they would figure it out after the first time, and not go back again.
        
        I think you are giving the police too much credit.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:35am

“People feel they have more rights"

Nice try mister nameless cop. People don't 'feel' they have 'more' rights. They're more aware that they have rights and are more willing to assert them.
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- Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:01am
  
  Re:
  We have all the rights enumerated in the Constitution of the United States of America, and your assertions that we just think we have rights...wait...what are you doing with that...don't flush!
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 7:25am

Seriously, if these comments don't show that a large portion of these cops and their supporting unions AREN'T psychopathic, I don't know what will.

It's time for an enema because these fuckers are out of control.
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- Anonymous, 21 Aug 2014 @ 3:49pm
  
  Re: Cops are out of control
  Cops are out of control due the hiring process. If you check with the stats one will see that when a person goes for the psyh. testing they are asked if they drink and if you go to parties in clubs. They just cannot believe that some black men do not abuse they bodies --not even socially. Many black men can party have a good tome with getting liquored up getting in their car and killing someone like this cops do!!!
  
  Just the other night in Brooklyn, New York a teenager was riding is bike in the street, 2 white cops stopped their car got out and pushed him off the bike, pushed him into a wrought iron fence -- for what riding a bike???. I do believe if I wasn't sitting in my car watching the kid would have be assaulted by the cops or left for dead.
  
  They are nothing be a gang of blue crooks who lie to protect their own and black cops are just as bad. The stomping of someone's head when they are handcuffed for all to see was enough for me.
  
  Lets face it you have to have a specific mentality to be hired by NYPD and other police department throughout the United States of this America.
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  - Anonymous, 21 Aug 2014 @ 4:01pm
    
    He should have said
    "HANDS UP DON'T SHOOT". WE HAVE TO TEACH OUR CHILDREN HOW TO SAID IT. THEN KEEP THEIR FUCKIN MOUTH SHUT. I DEMANDED THAT MY SON DO THIS 46 YEARS AGO. AND HE HAS NEVER BEEN TO JAIL IN HIS LIFE WHEN A PLAY COP APPROACHES HIM HE SAYS
    NOTHING, HE LOOKS AT THEM FOR THE IDIOTS THEY ARE.
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Nielnieh Trebor, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:09am

Simply fix the problem using the answer from an old story
Trank each such person. While unconscious, shave head, use indelible ink to place comment on forehead indicating what he/she might be. Color rest of face with bright indelible inks, strip bodies and paint accordingly with various slogans and then use appropriately marked vehicles to drop said unconscious bodies in public places with handcuffs to say railing or power pole, etc.

Those who know the story will get the reference.

Effective use against invading forces attacking democracy.
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RD, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:18am

Complete and utter HORSE SHIT
"If people think they are being treated unfairly, they should sue the city after they go through the process instead of resisting.”

Let me tell you directly from 2nd-hand experience, this is a bullshit statement and he fucking knows it.

I had a friend a few years ago who was with his niece in NYC one day, minding his own business. She was in a public bathroom, and he was waiting outside for her. The cops come along and start "arresting" someone nearby, like 30 feet away. My friend is standing stock-still against a wall, watching. No phone or camera, no movement, just watching. All he did was turn his head to see what the commotion was about and a jack-booted thug stomps up to him and, literally, demands to know what he is looking at. My friend barely gets a couple of words out to the effect of "just seeing what is happening" when he is thrown to the ground and 3 other "lawmen" come over and proceed to stomp him into the ground. My friend is pleading with them that his niece needs him, but they are thugs and don't care. They cart him off, leaving a 9 year old girl alone in the middle of the city. He spends 6 months in the hospital, has proof with pictures AND witnesses. He could not get a SINGLE lawyer to take his case. Why? Because EVERY lawyer on the east coast knows suing the NYPD and/or police out there is a guaranteed loser. EVERYONE in the system will side with the cops, from the judge on down. So, the idea that you can "just go through the system and sue" is 100% grade-a fucking BULL SHIT, and will NOT lead to any kind of redress of grieveneces, and this thug asshole piece of garbage knows it.
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- Zonker, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:21pm
  
  Re: Complete and utter HORSE SHIT
  Not to mention that you would technically be suing your fellow taxpayers, not the police department as you would believe. Any award of damages would not come from the Police union, pension, or salaries, but instead from the city tax coffers.
  
  In other words: the officer making the statement knows damn well that he will face no penalty for treating anyone unfairly and expects to pass the buck on to the very same citizens he's abusing on duty.
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  - That One Guy (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 6:10pm
    
    Re: Re: Complete and utter HORSE SHIT
    Making corrupt cops and those that defend and enable them personally liable for any lawsuit damages would go a long way towards fixing the problem. If any monetary awards are paid, ultimately, by the taxpayers, why should corrupt cops care if they get sued over their actions?
    
    If they, personally had to pay back the fines though, then you can be sure that they'd start caring.
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  - Anonymous Coward, 5 Dec 2014 @ 11:29am
    
    Re: Re: Complete and utter HORSE SHIT
    Idiot... the taxpayers voted in the assholes allowing police to do this.
    
    Therefore the taxpayers are culpable.
    
    That is just how it works... the idea that society is innocent is a farce. We have the power to make a change.
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    - Uriel-238 (profile), 5 Dec 2014 @ 11:38am
      
      You don't know US very well, do you?
      Um. Have you seen the options we get to vote for?
      
      DEMOCRATS: Pro-pot, pro-police-state, pro-dragnet-surveillance, pro-torture.
      
      REPUBLICANS: Pro-gun, pro-police-state, pro-dragnet-surveillance, pro-torture.
      
      Blame one man for being an idiot when he is tasked with the duties of one who should be learned, but blame will not change a society of dunces into a society of scholars.
      
      You need to lurk more.
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Manabi (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:18am

Using the police union's words against them
The New York City Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, the largest union representing NYPD officers, said in a statement that it was “criminals like Mr. Orta who carry illegal firearms who stand to benefit the most by demonizing the good work of police officers.”
See now, this is genius, because the guy's death was ruled a homicide, the criminals include at least part of the police officers. So let's rephrase that, shall we?

“criminals like the officer who choked Mr. Garner to death who [sic] stand to benefit the most by demonizing the public.”>

Yep, that about covers it.
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Christopher (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:49am

Yea, cop haters united again!
A POS died, the end. Don't call 911 in an emergency, call the guy selling unlicensed cigarettes instead.

I'm glad to see Fairyland is still alive and well.

-C
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- John Fenderson (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:23am
  
  Re: Yea, cop haters united again!
  So you're saying that homicide is OK when the cops do it?
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- Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 10:29am
  
  Re: Yea, cop haters united again!
  Great advice dickhead!
  
  Seems like I'd have a far better chance of SURVIVAL if I call the cigarette guy. But you feel free to call 911 - who knows, it might just help clean the gene pool a bit.
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- Uriel-238 (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 12:16pm
  
  Don't call 911 in an emergency
  I think you nailed it in one, Christopher. With each new example, we're seeing that police involvement tends to make situations actually worse. All we need is a few more incidents like Ferguson, MO to drive the point home to the nuclear family. At this point, law enforcement has a public image less like a professional service to the people and more like yet another gang. Eventually, communities will cease calling the police and will start managing things internally.
  
  Dunno if you're a police officer, but you seem to be eager to defend them. Maybe if you can get your precinct to stop lying to secure confessions, or lying in court to secure convicts. Maybe you can convince your fellow officers to let cameras be, and staying professional regardless of a visible videographer. And maybe you guys can relearn the importance of proportional response, where you talk to people before tazing them, and don't shoot people unless fired upon.
  
  Mostly what I hear is how police work is hard because commoners are "fucking animals". If that is the attitude retained within the departments, I'm afraid our respect for you is going to continue to decline.
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Shaku Arai (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:55am

This is tragic
I wonder if anyone in the police upper ranks even realize that the worst they can do to fix the police's already dismal public perception is to stop doing out of control shit? Killing a human being by asphyxia is a horrible thing to do and even if it got recorded by the Devil himself still its the police doing the evil deed. They need to focus on reigning-in the "we are absolute authority, and above the law" mentality since it creates more enemies and distrust from the general public. Focusing on the cameras recording them not only makes them seem petty in the face of murder, it is also a retarded thing to do.
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- Shaku Arai (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:58am
  
  Re: This is tragic
  Crap I put stop instead of keep when talking about the out of control shit. Sorry about that.
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- DogBreath, 12 Aug 2014 @ 10:13am
  
  Re: This is tragic
  What would be even more tragic is if the police officer gets off with a slap on the wrist (i.e. allowed to resign with no charges and keep his pension), and the guy they arrested gets charged with unlawful filming and distribution of a snuff film.
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Roger Strong (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:33am

A simple disproof:
“criminals like Mr. Orta who carry illegal firearms who stand to benefit the most by demonizing the good work of police officers.”

Remember Lt. John Pike, the UC Davis officer who pepper sprayed entirely passive students? His hurt feelings over being demonized for it won him a workers compensation claim settlement of $38,056. Each pepper-sprayed student, er, "criminal", received $30,000.

There's no record of those who "demonized" Lt. Pike by recording him doing his "good work" receiving any compensation at all.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 10:31am

They're taking lessons from the NYPD
Apparently the copsXXXXthugs in Ferguson Missouri like to murder people just for fun too: http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/eyewitness-michael-brown-fatal-shooting-missouri

Now the coverup is in full swing, the lies are coming fast and furious, and the cops haven't even bothered to talk to the one eyewitness. Michael Brown was murdered by a pig.
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Michael, 12 Aug 2014 @ 11:04am

Guns don't kill people, cops choking the life out of them kills people.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 11:43am

The New York City Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association
There's a Legitimate Businessmen's Social Club if I've ever seen one.
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Kevin Carson, 12 Aug 2014 @ 12:26pm

I wonder if those pus-soaked turds in SS uniforms are smart enough to ever start thinking about the cell phone camera surveillance and public outrage BEFORE they murder someone.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 12:52pm

Burying the bodies is old habit.
I suspect that law enforcement has over a century of foul-and-suppress habits to get over, and now the ubiquity of personal cameras only now disrupting their common modus operandi. Looking for and attacking witnesses is part of that routine, and it's ending with bad results. The next step is to try to suppress rights to record (e.g. the Connecticut detainment-by-proxy ruling) and then after that to adapt to the new situation.

Adaptation won't apply to old officers used to covering up their trail, of course, who will fight it into retirement. But new officers who'd been trained to assume they couldn't control the cameras will learn to function as such.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 1:28pm

It's obvious the NYPD thugs targeting the camera man who caught their murder on video. The camera man was arrested shortly after the medical examiner's report came out ruling the victim's death a homicide.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 2:38pm

NY Post catches the wave: trend journalism is new again!
As the new millennium gathers steam, a few savvy journalists are challenging the hoary tradition that three anecdotes make a trend. For the Twitter generation, one data point is all it takes. Give readers more and they tune out, or worse, start to question whether the facts support the writers' conclusions.

At the New York Post, Stephanie Pagones and Gary Buiso defy yesterday's standards and cut to the chase. They write, "Suspects are now taking the term “beat cops” literally. Assaults on police officers are up 4 percent this year compared with last year — a disturbing new trend that’s part of an emerging disrespect for authority on the street, cops and experts told The Post."

Pagones and Buiso cite statistics on the first 7 months of 2014 compared to the same period of 2013: an increase of 14. Is that more or less than 2012? Is it within the normal range of variation from year to year? They don't say.

In the good old days of hot type, your grandfather's editor would say it takes more than one disquieting uptick to add up to a disturbing trend. But in today's fast-paced economy, reporters are pressed to go at Internet speed. There is ever less time to go looking for dull facts that turn off readers and might detract from the story line.

The NY Post is climbing on the bandwagon of change, chasing the New York Times, which in 2010 reported: "A curious phenomenon has emerged at the intersection of fashion, sports and crime: dozens of men and women who have robbed, beaten, stabbed and shot at their fellow New Yorkers have done so while wearing Yankees caps or clothing.... Since 2000, more than 100 people who have been suspects or persons of interest in connection with serious crimes in New York City wore Yankees apparel at the time of the crimes or at the time of their arrest or arraignment." Come on, Post, give us the latest scoop: Yankees caps or clothing while assaulting NYPD officers - trending up or down?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100824/16111010766.shtml
http://www.radosh.net/writing/trends.htm l
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Cpt Feathersword, 12 Aug 2014 @ 3:18pm

NY Post catches new wave in trend journalism
As the new millennium gathers steam, a few savvy journalists are challenging the hoary tradition that three anecdotes make a trend. For the Twitter generation, one data point is all it takes. Give readers more and they tune out, or worse, start to question whether the facts support the writers' conclusions.

At the New York Post, Stephanie Pagones and Gary Buiso defy yesterday's standards and cut to the chase. They write, "Suspects are now taking the term “beat cops” literally. Assaults on police officers are up 4 percent this year compared with last year — a disturbing new trend that’s part of an emerging disrespect for authority on the street, cops and experts told The Post."

Pagones and Buiso cite statistics on the first 7 months of 2014 compared to the same period of 2013: an increase of 14. Is that more or less than 2012? Is it within the normal range of variation from year to year? They don't say.

In the good old days of hot type, your grandfather's editor would say it takes more than one disquieting uptick to add up to a disturbing trend. But in today's fast-paced economy, reporters are pressed to go at Internet speed. There is ever less time to go looking for dull facts that turn off readers and might detract from the story line.

The NY Post is climbing on the bandwagon of change, chasing the New York Times, which in 2010 reported: "A curious phenomenon has emerged at the intersection of fashion, sports and crime: dozens of men and women who have robbed, beaten, stabbed and shot at their fellow New Yorkers have done so while wearing Yankees caps or clothing.... Since 2000, more than 100 people who have been suspects or persons of interest in connection with serious crimes in New York City wore Yankees apparel at the time of the crimes or at the time of their arrest or arraignment." Come on, Post, give us the latest scoop: Yankees caps or clothing while assaulting NYPD officers - trending up or down?

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20100824/16111010766.shtml
http://www.radosh.net/writing/trends.htm l
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- nasch (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:40pm
  
  Re: NY Post catches new wave in trend journalism
  For the Twitter generation, one data point is all it takes. Give readers more and they tune out, or worse, start to question whether the facts support the writers' conclusions.
  
  Got any facts to support that conclusion? :-)
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Zonker, 12 Aug 2014 @ 5:38pm

Orta is a criminal. Pantaleo is a police officer. Lynch's statement asks the public to choose a side. Do you want to side with criminals, or do you want to let bygones be bygones (including the occasional homicide) and side with New York's finest?
This statement is not how I see the situation. I see it as the following:

Orta is a civilian. Pantaleo is a murderer. Lynch's statement asks the public to choose a side. Do you want to side with murderers, or do you want to let bygones be bygones (including the occasional right to bear arms and cameras) and side with your fellow civilians?
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Rekrul, 12 Aug 2014 @ 8:54pm

Nothing will change until there are civilian oversight boards with no ties to the police, investigating every report of police brutality.

The police nor even the courts can be trusted to hold cops accountable as long as officers are placed on a pedestal and made legally untouchable for their actions.
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Anonymous Coward, 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:06pm

Another day, another story from the NYPD that would make the T-1000 go 'what the heck?' Maybe this is their plan: desensitise everyone until they can get away with anything under the guise that it's just business as usual.
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Eldakka (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:09pm

“People feel like they know the law better than we do.”
That's because the police have demonstrated time and time again that this statement is true.
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Laroquod (profile), 12 Aug 2014 @ 9:43pm

Pain!!!
What is an 'Orta' and why do people keep referring to it in quotes throughout this article, sometimes preceded by 'Mister'?
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2014 @ 6:20am

Why should anyone respect any U.S. cop anywhere anymore? A very significant percentage of them are thugs, rapists, murderers, thiefs and bullys. That part of the police force generally ranges from corrupt to outright evil.

I'm more than willing to guess that part is not the majority of cops. But the majority of cops does nothing to act against them. They shield them, they lie for them, they hide their dirty deeds, and by doing that, take full responsibility for them. Which essentially makes all U.S. cops thugs, thiefes and murderers.

The rest of the DOJ and government goes right along with this and adds it's own brands of thuggery. The appropriate emotion for anthing to do with any part of the U.S. government ist fear and loathing, not respect, until the opposite is proven. There are a few exceptions every now and then (Senator Wyden would be the first that springs to mind), but they are rare, and therefor should not influence your expectations going into any contact.

I'd rather go to China than into the U.S. these days, because I think I have less to fear from their organized repressive regime than from the general and pervasive thuggery of the U.S.

Respect? Not in this lifetime.
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Anonymous Coward, 13 Aug 2014 @ 8:03am

Doublespeak
The NYPD uses the lack of respect of the public as an excuse for poor behavior on their part. It seems this is actually a case of doublespeak. It is blatantly obvious from the quotes in the links provided in the article that they do not actually want respect from the public. Respect requires trust and cannot be obtained by force out of an individual. What they demand from citizens, whether they realize it themselves or not, is actually fear.
In that context the statements from the police officers make perfect sense and are even quite logical in a perverted way.
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- John Fenderson (profile), 13 Aug 2014 @ 8:09am
  
  Re: Doublespeak
  Authoritarians frequently suffer from the false belief that fear is a kind of respect.
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  - That One Guy (profile), 14 Aug 2014 @ 8:00pm
    
    Re: Re: Doublespeak
    It makes for a passable placeholder, keeping the populous in line, the difference is, the more people respect a group, the better off that group becomes. People will go out of their way to help someone they respect, offering time, effort, and even money to help them out if asked.
    
    Conversely, fear makes it so people want as little contact as possible with the ones causing it, and if the fear gets too high, simple survival instincts will cause people to lash out, attacking the person/group causing the fear, in an attempt to protect themselves.
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DogBreath, 13 Aug 2014 @ 10:46am

The "message" they want to send is as clear as day
Respect requires trust and cannot be obtained by force out of an individual. What they demand from citizens, whether they realize it themselves or not, is actually fear.

So, the NYPD is practicing the old Tarkin Doctrine. Perhaps there should be a mandatory viewing of Star Wars (Episode 4) by all NYPD officers, with a test at the end about what happens to those who follow such a doctrine. Those who do not pass said test can be shown the door (and then the street, and the curb and even a few flights of stairs).

P.S. Pray the police don't learn the true power of the dark side of the force, or we're all doomed.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 13 Aug 2014 @ 11:48am

The Tarkin Doctrine
The Tarkin Doctrine is simply a galactic caliber of the classic concept of monopoly of violence. But this fails when it is used inconsistently. SWAT raids are not consistently attacking stockhouses or points of sale or usage dens, but random houses on anonymous tips, often leading to some minor infraction such as cutting hair without a license. And still the gang-on-gang drug violence is only increasing.

Furthermore, Law Enforcement is not being discrete with their use of force, tazing loiterers and gunning down unarmed innocents rather than meeting opposing force proportionately. They are clumsy and random with the power they wield.

So if anything, this is a poorly implemented application of the Tarkin Doctrine, which was I think Leia's point with her snark.

Myself, I find loud cell-phone chatter in a conference to be more annoying than a challenge to someone's believe in mysticism to be actually useful. Tarkin should have let Vader finish the job.
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- DogBreath, 13 Aug 2014 @ 1:11pm
  
  Re: The Tarkin Doctrine
  SWAT raids are not consistently attacking stockhouses or points of sale or usage dens
  
  Because if they did, they might work themselves out of a job by eliminating high level crimes and have to go back to writing parking tickets. Rule 1: Do your job well enough not to get fired, but don't be too effective or you might eliminate it altogether.
  
  And still the gang-on-gang drug violence is only increasing
  
  Job Security.
  
  They are clumsy and random with the power they wield.
  
  So, if we gave them blasters, would they miss as much as a stormtrooper?
  
  So if anything, this is a poorly implemented application of the Tarkin Doctrine,
  
  Or it is exactly what they want, plausible deniability, allowing some law enforcement to appear incompetent, to see how much they can get away with while eroding constitutional rights a little more each day.
  
  For something starting out as a simple misunderstanding can cause the fall of an empire.
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  - Uriel-238 (profile), 13 Aug 2014 @ 9:09pm
    
    Re: Re: The Tarkin Doctrine
    They are clumsy and random with the power they wield.
    
    So, if we gave them blasters, would they miss as much as a stormtrooper?
    
    It occurs to me that the inaccuracy of the stormtroopers in Star Wars serves as a great metaphor of their efficacy as a police force or garrison. That's a better explanation than plot shields, though possibly not as intentional on Lucas' part as I make it.
    
    Still, Lucas did make for us a glorious evil empire.
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