Cleveland Police Union Rep: Citizens Think They Understand The Law? Ridiculous!
from the er-okay-then dept
If you're a sports fan, you have probably heard about the spate of players in several leagues sporting shirts or else protesting, via planned actions at the start of games, the recent deaths at the hands of police. Everyone from Derrick Rose and LeBron James in the NBA to several football players have gotten into the act. A few weeks back, in fact, we learned that the police in St. Louis, the area home to the Michael Brown shooting, were quite upset that members of the Rams would dare to voice their support for protesters. That story was insulting enough, but the reaction to Cleveland Browns player Andrew Hawkins' wearing of a shirt that simply read "Justice for Tamir Rice - John Crawford", both of whom also died at the hands of police, is downright insulting.
In response, Jeff Follmer Police Patrolman Union President sent newsnet5 the following statement:If this statement from the President of a police union in a major city doesn't boil you up with anger, read it again. It's pathetic when athletes think they know the law? By implication, it's "pathetic" when ordinary citizens believe they "know" the law under which they are governed? The hubris required to insist that the same people you claim to protect and serve are pathetic for thinking they are aware of the legalities of American life runs at levels I truly didn't even think I'd see directly on display. Of course, there are nuances with the legal profession that escape the average American. That's why we have lawyers. But for the reaction to the police shooting two unarmed people (one of them twelve years old) to be to snicker at the thought that the protester knows "the law" is beyond insulting. It's downright stupid.
"It's pretty pathetic when athletes think they know the law. They should stick to what they know best on the field. The Cleveland Police protect and serve the Browns stadium and the Browns organization owes us an apology."
And what is with the thinning of skin in America's police force all of the sudden that a little protest returns calls for apologies? Grow up. You don't get to wear body armor, drive around in MRAPs, and have skin the thickness of amoeba membranes.
What this ultimately reveals is that many cities in this country have a huge problem in the disconnect between the police and the people they protect and serve. For the lead dog in a police union to snort at the public for daring to "know the law" in such a manor reveals the larger problem: the respect is only going one way, if any way at all.
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Filed Under: andrew hawkins, cleveland, jeff follmer, john crawford, law, law enforcement, police, tamir rice
Reader Comments
The First Word
“And yet...
I bet that this union rep is more than willing to criticize the Browns players when they don't play well.Even though no one dies when football players screw up.
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And yet...
Even though no one dies when football players screw up.
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Re: And yet...
pedant off/
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Re: Re: And yet...
pedant off/
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Re: And yet...
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"Protect and serve"
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This asshat thinks ignorance of the law is required outside of law enforcement, and they think the law is what they say it is.
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Re:
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Protect and serve
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Re: Protect and serve
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Re: Re: Protect and serve
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Re: Protect and serve
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What the civilians have learned from law enforcement is that it is often safer with the criminals than with the law.
What's wrong with this picture?
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Re:
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Re:
It saddens me that we keep track of every single person killed by capital punishment in prison but when the police are judge, jury, and executioner we shrug and go "why would we track that?"
I suddenly feel like the show "Dexter" is uncomfortably close to reality. If you want to be a serial killer, you know where the best place to get away with it is? Join the police. Kill anyone you want, and maybe you'll get some unpaid leave while they cover it up...er, "investigate."
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Re: Re:
oh, wait...
its good to be the king ! !!
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While it would probably be an (uncomfortably) apt metaphor, my guess is you meant to say "manner" and not "manor" here.
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Re:
When it comes to how cops are treated by the system, they live in manors.
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No, no... The southern plantation house simply will not do for legal debates. For that, one needs a fortified villa. A motte and bailey would be better, for those times you want to pour boiling oil on the lawyers at the portcullis.
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Better would be to read Andrew Hawkins' very well spoken statement about this matter.
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It's also pretty pathetic that police continue to assault, arrest and intimidate Americans for documenting police activity on video, even though it's perfectly legal. Quite pathetic indeed, such absence of legal awareness in our police...
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Not defending the police here, but I'd like to see the statistics on that. Are we counting only problem cases or are truly justified cases included?
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Re: Re:
I'd say excluding justified killings, Tom's estimate would be conservative to say the least.
Also, with the sheer volume of shootings, and the increasing number of police killings where we're seeing police overstepping the bounds and then claiming it was justified, I wouldn't be surprised if the number of genuinely justifiable police shootings are in the single digits. With a most of them being "justified" because the person they killed was trying to defend themselves from a madman on a power trip with a badge and a trunk full of military hardware they were itching to play with.
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Re: Re:
How do you tell the difference? Serious question: without independent investigations, on what basis would you separate the two?
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To be fair...
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Re:
The way that Jeff Follmer, Police Patrolman Union President tells it, those with a Ph.D should stick to what they know best, and only people being paid for law enforcement should claim to know the law.
Because while I know there are a number of athletes with Ph.Ds, I can't think of many policemen who went further than a Master's degree. Those that did usually traded in their badge for something else, and so would no longer be covered by his blanket statement.
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Re:
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I see...so when the POLICE don't know the law, what's your excuse then?
http://www.policestateusa.com/2014/nicholas-heien-v-north-carolina/
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What respect?
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Re: What respect?
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Re: Re: What respect?
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Re: Re: Re: What respect?
To suggest that people would never do anything inappropriate because they are ethical is to really not understand human beings, people fail, they react and the do things that they themselves think are wrong all the time, the reason I say none of this applies to cops is that they are culturally violent in my experience they are less honest and more violent that bikers, they regularly frame, abuse, extort and harm the communities they are supposed to be protecting.
I can't remember that last time a biker tried to force me to suck his cock, but I can remember the last time a cop did.
I remember the last time on of the "capable of violence" people jumped in and saved me from getting my head kicked in, I also remember getting swarmed and having a knife pulled on me with two cops across the street that despite my calls for help did nothing.
Being capable of violence is just a skill, being ethical is a general state but you are still not immune to failure, being a cop is to choose to be and to accept training to be a sociopath
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Re: Re: Re: Re: What respect?
I wasn't talking about murder, I was talking about "great violence". Being convicted of murder is not proof that the person is undeserving of respect. That depends on entirely on the circumstances that led to the killing.
"To suggest that people would never do anything inappropriate because they are ethical is to really not understand human beings"
Also not really what I was saying. I was talking about people deserving of respect more than whether they are ethical. Someone who engages in great violence inappropriately is not deserving of respect. Ethical people can (and all do) suffer lapses, of course, because living ethically is a bit like being enlightened: you can never accomplish it completely, but the important part is that you strive for it always.
However, that's distinct from "respect". I know people I consider ethical who I don't respect.
"Being capable of violence is just a skill"
Depends on what you mean by "capable". I mean "being willing". That's not a skill, that's a mindset. Being technically able to is a skill. I would posit that there are more people in the latter camp than the former.
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Undertone?
"The Cleveland Police protect and serve the Browns stadium and the Browns organization owes us an apology."
Several statements like this, others were more blunt, imply that the police were insulted and may not protect and serve if they feel slighted. Or am I reading too much into this?
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Re: Undertone?
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He migh be right...
I would just like to know: what is the excuse of police unions, the police force, judges, law agencies, lawyers and others who is in that field?
While we are at it, some things are obvious i areas we know nothing about. Just as obvious as you don't use bicycles to transport tons of sand across 100's of miles in the transport business; you DON'T kill 12 year old kids or other unarmed people as a cop and just shrug your shoulders afterwards while you go "meh"
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Area of Expertise
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Re: Area of Expertise
But when I'm told by an expert in a field that I don't know dick about that field, I wouldn't take umbrage. The trouble here is that police officers are almost never experts in the field of law. They're, at best, experts in the field of law enforcement.
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It's worse than that
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I believe Mr. Follmer owes Mr. Hawkins an apology. It's downright insulting when Presidents of Police Unions, don't know the law. This explains a lot about why unarmed citizens are getting choked to death, and 12 year old kids are getting gun downed in 2 seconds flat in the middle of broad daylight.
Sickening.
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Actually, he's right
Actually, he's right. It's pretty obvious by now that it's perfectly legal for the police can shoot anyone they want.
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Crocodile Tears and Public Relations
When your "officers" are responsible, on multiple occasions over a period spanning years, for gunning down unarmed citizens you should expect to be criticized and have demands for police accountability voiced.
If Jeff Follmer can not handle citizens demands for accountability he and his ilk within the Cleveland police department should resign.
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The real terrorists are...
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Re:
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"cops can do whatever they want, citizens are being used as target practice by police for their murderous rages. other police and Courts refuse to prosecute dirty cops soley because they are police."
Take a look at their training for god sakes they are using cardboard shooting targets designed to look like normal every day civilians be it a senior citizen, a pregnant teen mother or a child. All conviently holding guns.
http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/19/is-your-local-police-department-using-pi
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Cleveland thinks they have law enforcement officers?
Ridiculous!
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Cops can beat you and all they have to say is that you tried to assault them or that you were resisting arrest.
Cops can kill you and all they have to say is that they feared for their life.
Cops will almost never face any consequences for anything they do. Their superiors, police unions and sympathetic DAs will make sure of that.
Even video evidence isn't enough to hold most cops accountable.
And yet, a large percentage of the people in this country don't believe that there's any problem.
What's wrong with this picture?
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Ignorance is bliss
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'law'
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John Q. Public - State Adversary #1
If the Police still actually Protect and Serve somebody, you can be absolutely certain its not the American public.
The public is, for all intents and purposes, The Problem, according to almost all the agencies that are supposed to be working for the public and for the public good, and who seem to forget that its the public that pays their wages.
I don't see this situation getting any better soon, because the public no longer has a voice and can thus effect no change in the direction the Police and other federal agencies are headed.
This thing is going to have to come to a boil, and blow the lid off the pot before there will be even a remote possibility for change, because the people leading this charge into hell are completely isolated from the normal legal and social consequences of wrong action now and see no reason for restraint.
Shit and fan will have to meet before anything can be salvaged from the wreckage of what was once The United States of America.
I find it somewhat ironic, that those who have succeeded the most due to the American Way of Life, are the very same people who are currently doing everything in their power to destroy every last remnant of that way of life.
Must be a dinosaur thing.
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The Last Word
“I believe Mr. Follmer owes Mr. Hawkins an apology. It's downright insulting when Presidents of Police Unions, don't know the law. This explains a lot about why unarmed citizens are getting choked to death, and 12 year old kids are getting gun downed in 2 seconds flat in the middle of broad daylight.
Sickening.