Comcast Kept VIP List For Influential Customers In DC Suburbs, Still Insists Nobody Gets Special Treatment

from the treat-everyone-awful-equally dept

Thu, Jan 22nd 2015 6:09am — Karl Bode

Last month we pointed out a fracas over Comcast lobbyists handing out special "VIP cards" to lawmakers in the hopes of letting them believe they were able to get special treatment from Comcast. As we noted at the time (and Comcast was quick to point out) pretty much all employees get these cards, which direct users to a special, one-time use phone number that allows a card recipient to jump over the rest of the plebeians in the pursuit of slightly-less substandard Comcast technical support. We're not treating power players differently, argued the company, because everybody can get these cards if they bitch enough.

Fast forward a few weeks and a piece in the Washingtonian notes how a 2005 court filing indicates Comcast was keeping a list of VIP power players in the DC area that had Comcast service, and they did appear to get special service -- but only if their phone number was on record. Politicians, influential businessmen, civic leaders and other figures were tracked on a list, though Comcast again claims that none of these individuals received special treatment:

"A Comcast spokesperson declined to explain why such “VIP” lists were compiled or whether the company still maintains such lists. “Comcast does not and has not offered special service, perks or free upgrades to lawmakers or public officials,” the spokesperson said in a statement to Washingtonian."

Except again, it's not entirely clear that this is actually true. Two anonymous sources spoke to The Consumerist to note that not only were VIPs tracked, but if they called Comcast using their on-record phone number, they did in fact get special treatment:

"One source worked for a company contracted by Comcast to maintain its automatic call distributor (ACD) system, which routes customer phone calls as they come in. This person says that the Comcast system was set up so that when one of the people on the VIP list called in, it would identify them by their phone number and jump them to the front of the line.

"My understanding was they were not told they were receiving preferential treatment,” says the source, "so in my opinion Comcast was deceiving them into thinking the service was better than it actually was."

Another, more recently-employed source confirms the first, telling The Consumerist that VIP treatment was tied to a logged phone number, and was unrelated to the VIP cards (which offered access to a one-use phone number at Comcast):

"They say there were situations where the system wouldn’t identify VIP callers correctly because they called from a phone that was not associated with the account. But once the account was looked up, “we could see that status on their account and escalated them to the Platinum group,” says the source, who claims that frontline support people were never given the “We’ll make it right” cards that Comcast supposedly hands out to all employees."

That sounds suspiciously like special treatment, though at the end of the day being escalated from horribly abysmal customer service to marginally-decent customer service (or just getting horribly abysmal customer service faster) is probably a wash. Comcast, for what it's worth, will only mechanically and repeatedly insist that nobody has ever received special treatment, despite the now growing evidence that numerous people -- at least in DC -- were able to get special treatment. So, without a deeper investigation, I suppose we'll just have to take Comcast's word for it that all of the company's customers get treated like shit equitably.

244883395 Comcast Philly Settlement (PDF)244883395 Comcast Philly Settlement (Text)

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Filed Under: customer service, lobbying, politics, special treatment, vips, washington dc
Companies: comcast

65 Comments

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Violynne (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:20am

Comcast doesn't have this list in Washington, DC, either. There's one in Indianapolis as well, which I noted instantly the second I called Comcast support using one of the privileged phone numbers and was put directly in touch with a live person.

No damn account numbers. No Spanish language options. No waiting.

"This is Chris, how may I help you?"

For crying out loud, Comcast: with the billions earned, why can't everyone be addressed like this?

I hate capitalism.
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That One Guy (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:31am

Re:
Out of curiosity, how did you get access to one of the 'privileged phone numbers'?
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Pragmatic, 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:42am

Re:
Managed capialism, in which all actors are held accountable for their actions, is actually more beneficial than a state-run economic system, which would naturally tend towards stagnation because only the party faithful would get the best jobs in it.

The free-for-all capitalism we have now is a disgrace.

I blame the free-market brigade, who seem to believe that pretending the market is free will actually free it up and that leaving it to individuals and groups to transact their way out of trouble is the best way forward.

If you ever see that philosophy work, let me know. I prefer consumer advocacy backed by the force of law. Now that DOES work.
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That One Guy (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:49am

Re: Re:
If you ever see that philosophy work, let me know. I prefer consumer advocacy backed by the force of law. Now that DOES work.

Well, until the companies affected manage to buy out the ones writing the law anyway.

Still, it is a better idea than the 'just let the market manage itself' one, where they don't even have to bother buying out the lawmakers, they just do whatever they want regardless.
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Ninja (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:50am

Re: Re:
Capitalism would be great if it wasn't for one little thing: the human being. Money naturally brings power and power allows for very unethical and shady practices to eliminate competition. The issue we must face now is how to prevent such things forcing companies to compete rather than use those shady tools.
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:56am

Re:
I hate unrestrained capitalism.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:04am

like all services to customers that are 'regulated by politicians, there will be no change at all until it becomes an offense to receive payment of any sort in any way! leave things as they are and look forward to more of the same crap, where companies, through tidbits to congressmen and senators in return for having no regulations put in place that would hinder them, will continue to give customers the shitiest services possible! it's quite amazing the difference a MASSIVE fine or jail term for the top leaders makes!! and the way prices are laid out and the competition brought in to play!!
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:09am

Well, it is a democratic oligarchy we all live under...I expect nothing less from capitalists - I mean politicians.

Most if not all politicians are corporate scum in one form or another which is most evident if you consider that over 90% of the policies passed in the last 20+ years have been to no benefit to the public.

So what's the point of electing representatives?

We have the technology to create a true and direct democracy...But that'll never happen.

I mean after all, if you look at the charters of the first 13 states you'll see that they were initially considered corporations.

In other words, nothing has changed except ownership.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:27am

Re: Re:
But the 'free market' is people and they have just rights like any faithful Christian...

What you said is almost racist!

-----

Silliness aside, I'm willing to bet that corporate America will at some point attempt to pull the race card given the fact that race is a social ambiguity and can pretty much be applied to anything.

It's only a matter of time...
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:31am

1. O-Ren Ishii
2. Vernita Green
3. Budd
4. Elle Driver
5. BILL

This is a list of people that Beatrix Kiddo is no more likely to kill than anyone else.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:40am

Re:
So what's the point of electing representatives?

There are usually other choices that those who stand on a major party platform, and if enough people voted for them it would change politics, including convincing the parties that they need to listen to the people. Voting for the best of the alternatives to the major party candidates is a much better idea that not voting. Convincing people who do not vote, to vote for the candidate that best represents their real views is more likely to change politics than not voting.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:58am

Re: Re:
" Voting for the best of the alternatives to the major party candidates is a much better idea that not voting. "

Which is the most common mistake that everyone makes. The very fact that people are 'persuaded' to vote for people they don't want to vote for is a serious flaw in the voting system and is the reason why we keep sending the wrong people to DC to represent which ever state they're affiliated with.

Having no vote, should be considered a vote. I mean who would you rather vote for, Hitler or Stalin? AND YOU HAVE TO PICK OTHERWISE YOU'RE LEFT OUT!
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Anonymous Howard, Cowering, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:00am

The Spokesman Spoke and Spoke the Truth
“Comcast does not and has not offered special service, perks or free upgrades to lawmakers or public officials”

The key word is OR -- if you change either occurrence to AND, the statement becomes false.

Duh.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:24am

Re: Re: Re:
Whenever somebody tells me to 'just vote for the lessor of two evils' I tell them this:

"The systematic genocide of 6 million people or the starvation of 30 million Russians?

I guess I'll go with the lessor of two evils and pick Hitler!"

Sure, that's taking it to the extreme, but that's pretty much what our voting system boils down to if taken to that length...
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:32am

Re: Re: Re:
"Having no vote, should be considered a vote."

I would love to the the US have something like a "no confidence" vote that had actual ramifications. Such as forcing a whole new election if "no confidence" wins.

Or, at the very least, some sort of instant runoff system.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:49am

The "special" class mentality emerging
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:54am

Isn't the fact that these "vip" still require problem that need fixing, showing that Comcast isn't doing as good as a job as they claim?
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:57am

Re: Re: Re:
You seem to have fallen for the fallacy that a vote for anyone other than a major party candidate is the same as not voting, it isn't. Not voting does not threaten major party candidates, while voting for other candidates does, as they can lose their job if enough people do so.
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OldMugwump (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 9:59am

Re: Re: I blame the free-market brigade
How do you figure?

The reason why DC VIPs get special service is because the cable business (Comcast) is heavily regulated ("managed"), so these VIPs have a big influence on Comcast's business.

Maybe I'm missing your point. But if "the free-market brigade" got their way, the DC powers-that-be wouldn't be able to (a) push Comcast around, or (b) push around Comcast's competitors (making life easier for Comcast).

So then Comcast would have no reason to give the VIPs the red carpet treatment.

Am I missing something here?
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 10:05am

Re: Re:
Not voting should be counted in the "None of the above" column as a valid choice. If "None of the above" wins, that should say everything that needs to be said about all the other candidates: unacceptable, so either no one gets in, or you try again with other candidates.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 10:08am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Not voting does not threaten major party candidates, while voting for other candidates does, as they can lose their job if enough people do so.'

Can you expand a bit further on this?

I'm curious to your perspective...
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 10:10am

Re: Re: Re:
About half of all states and U.S. territories allow "no excuse absentee," where no reason is required to request an absentee ballot.

In other words, depending on the State you reside in, having a no vote of confidence could mean no vote at all which in turn is swept under the rug.
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New Mexico Mark, 22 Jan 2015 @ 10:18am

Chutzpah
"Politicians, influential businessmen, civic leaders and other figures were tracked on a list, though Comcast again claims that none of these individuals received special treatment"

It takes amazing gall or stupidity to deny something in the same sentence which proves the very thing you are denying. Being tracked on a list IS special treatment. Replace "special" with "preferential" and there could have been plausible deniability.
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NeoConBushSupporter, 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:52am

Shut up Slaves
Shut up slave, get in line and wait your turn!
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Violynne (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:52am

Re: Re:
It wasn't mine. Belonged to a CEO, who gave me the number to use when his business systems weren't working.

I can also vouch they are phone-number privileged. Another call to the same number from a different phone redirected me to the Queue of Hell.
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Violynne (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 11:54am

Re: Re:
There's no such thing as "unrestrained" capitalism.

By its very design, it's a system of class and wealth, and so far, history proves this system never works long term. Ever.
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Gwiz (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 12:15pm

Re: Re: Re:
By its very design, it's a system of class and wealth, and so far, history proves this system never works long term. Ever.

Not really sure what you mean by that statement. Free market capitalism has been around for as long as humans have traded goods and services. Free market capitalism is the default in the absence of a government. Governments fall, but supply and demand remains. The trading of goods and services continues unabated.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 12:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The more spread out the vote, the greater the chance of an alternative candidate winning is, while not voting usually leaves the result up to people who vote for the major parties. Also, a tradition of voting for candidates that are more likely to represent the electorate has to start somewhere, and not voting is not that place.
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Zonker, 22 Jan 2015 @ 12:24pm

Comcast: No, you have it wrong. That is our "Very Indentured Politican" list. It's our list of who owes us political favors. Our "special treatment" list is for those who piss us off, which is just about everybody else.
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:28pm

Re: Re: Re:
Perhaps my meaning is clearer is I say "unregulated" rather than "unrestrained".

There are aspects of capitalism that are very beneficial for everyone. However, as the saying goes, the dose makes the poison. Unregulated capitalism is toxic to society.
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Free market capitalism is the default in the absence of a government."

I'm not sure I agree. First, there is an inherent tension between "capitalism" and the "free market". There can be no free market if capitalism is unrestrained, and the only way to hold capitalism in check is through some form of government. So "free market capitalism" cannot persist in the absence of government.
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I Wuv Comcast, 22 Jan 2015 @ 1:37pm

Well, Comcast is known to be integral to the illegal spying apparatus operated by our benevolent guardians in the US imperial intelligence services. And all of these special people are likely of interest to our military overseers. So maybe Comcast was given this list of special people by it's friends in government and told to make sure visibility on them remains up.

OK, the connection to Comcast collaboration/complicity/facilitation of illegal spying is thin. I just wanted to re-flag the issue for everyone - including the Comcast marketing hacks that will probably read this and report back.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The biggest threat to a free market is governments and regulations, as these favor large and inefficient corporations. The cost of dealing with paperwork, and certification of products, via the big company controlled test centers, can make it almost impossible for small start-ups to enter a market. Try bringing a vehicle design to market for instance, where the problem is not so much designing it to meet the regulations, but rather in getting the design approved.
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Gwiz (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So "free market capitalism" cannot persist in the absence of government.

By it's very definition free market capitalism only exits without government intervention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market

Laissez-faire capitalism is also a form of free market capitalism where the government only protects property rights and doesn't intervene in the market itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire

And yes, the biggest problem with a free market economy is that it does promote monopolies and distribute most of the wealth to a few. We operate under a hybrid capitalistic economy that incorporates a few different flavors of capitalism and we still have those same problems.

I still see capitalism as the best choice, regardless. Obviously, feudalism isn't desired and large scale socialism experiments have not proven to be sustainable due to human nature.

Anyways, my main point was that the free market economy is the default without a government. People trade goods with each other at prices that both find to be fair and have done so throughout history.
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:10pm

Re: Re: Re:
There's no such thing as "unrestrained" capitalism.

By its very design, it's a system of class and wealth, and so far, history proves this system never works long term. Ever.

You two are beginning to pee me off. Don't go making me go Fred Bastiat on you if you know what's good for you.

TL;DR In ideas like these, there's always the dictionary definition, the popular understanding, the most demonstrably wrong end, and the correct end, with a lot of gray in the middle.

There's nothing wrong with capitalism. Our 21st century implementation of it sucks (is fatally flawed). What's your definition of capitalism? 1% vs. the rest, or "Legalize corporate financial rape!", or Tea Party, or NeoCons, or what? I tend to hang out with Adam Smith, Bastiat and von Mises.

I wish you guys would all vote me emperor. I could show you the way. Unfortunately, this's somewhat off-topic for a Comcast related story. :-)

[thanks again Mike!]
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:28pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
First, there is an inherent tension between "capitalism" and the "free market".

Sophistry. If it's not a free market, it's not capitalism. It's a mixed something or other. "Free market" presumes "market forces" (value has value) are encouraged to regulate the system; a la Wall St. (in theory).
There can be no free market if capitalism is unrestrained, and the only way to hold capitalism in check is through some form of government. So "free market capitalism" cannot persist in the absence of government.

I guess we should agree to disagree since I just argued the opposite. What part of "Laissez nous faire!" do you not understand? Your interpretation sounds more like the official regime's preference.

On the other hand, this's the first instance in my life in which I found the need for and used the word sophistry, so thanks for that! :-)
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:37pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"By it's very definition free market capitalism only exits without government intervention."

Yes, true enough. But that means that the "free market" is like a unicorn: it's entirely mythical.

"my main point was that the free market economy is the default without a government."

I'm still unconvinced. It seems to me that the default market in the absence of government would be monopoly or oligopoly. Perhaps there would be a brief period of a true free market, but it wouldn't last long enough to matter.
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John Fenderson (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 2:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"If it's not a free market, it's not capitalism."

No, not sophistry at all. The free market and capitalism are entirely different things, and each can exist in the absence of the other. A free market is the ability to engage in commerce without limitation. Capitalism is where trade and industry are owned by individuals (as opposed to the government). History (and the present day, in China) gives us numerous examples of having one without the other.

"Your interpretation sounds more like the official regime's preference."

I don't think so at all. I'm not advocating governmental control of all things. But I'm also not advocating corporate control of all things (which is our current form of capitalism).

I'm just saying that if you want a free market, then some regulation is logically necessary in order to have it.
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 3:05pm

Re: Re: Re:
By its very design, it's a system of class and wealth, and so far, history proves this system never works long term. Ever.

An idea is not responsible for the people who hold it. Guns don't kill people, ...

Equals working together with equals without interference from corrupt power mongers could work today with no help from the overhead of gov't. The problem is the mere existence of said corrupt power mongers which are enabled by gov't.

Predators exist in all target rich environments. We need to revive the concepts of ethics and morality, and make them civic duty. Then the predators and their schemes will stand out as antithetical.
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 3:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The more spread out the vote, the greater the chance of an alternative candidate winning is, while not voting usually leaves the result up to people who vote for the major parties.

Translation: "Our (USA) electoral system is SO !@#$ed up, ..." ... fill in the blanks.
Also, a tradition of voting for candidates that are more likely to represent the electorate has to start somewhere, and not voting is not that place.

You've been hoodwinked. It's not a fair game anymore. The Democrats and Republicans have been in utter control of the electoral process for decades. Google gerrymandering.

Not voting is just spitting on a corrupt and irrelevant system which is out to capitalize (Hah!) on our naivete'. I'm not goin' along with the pleasant fiction.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 3:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Not voting is just spitting on a corrupt and irrelevant system

Not voting has no chance of changing the system, while voting for alternative candidates has a chance of changing the system. The alternative means of change is letting the system deteriorate until some tyrant organizes a revolution, which is hardly likely to improve the system.
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tqk (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Unregulated capitalism is toxic to society.

No, don't blame the implementation. It must be capitalism itself which is flawed!
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Gwiz (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 5:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yes, true enough. But that means that the "free market" is like a unicorn: it's entirely mythical.

No, it's not mythical and it does exist, even today. Just look to any black market that's out there. The markets for drugs, weapons, human trafficking, etc. are all examples of free market economies. They exist outside of regulations and without property rights.

It seems to me that the default market in the absence of government would be monopoly or oligopoly.

I'm not really a student of economics, so I could be completely wrong here, but I think the words "monopoly" and "oligopoly" are terms that describe the state of a particular market at a given time and are not really definitions of what kind of market it actually is.

Monopolies can exist in a free market economy, but it's still a free market economy as long as there is no intervention from government. Where it gets a little fuzzy in my mind is when the monopoly is, or becomes the government.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 5:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"There's nothing wrong with capitalism."

Except when it dictates nearly all legislation being passed by congress.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 5:51pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"Try bringing a vehicle design to market for instance, where the problem is not so much designing it to meet the regulations, but rather in getting the design approved."

These types of regulations were more than likely imposed by the automotive industry themselves to stifle competition...pfft!
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:25pm

I have to fix all my cable problems myself, because Comcast charges over $60 to send a service technician out for a house call. Even if the low signal problem is actually with the telephone pole line equipment, not the splitters or cabling inside the customer's household.

I've had Comcast Reps. ask me, "Do you want me to schedule a technician?". I tell them hell no, that costs money!

Then I hang up the phone and wait for the rest of my neighbors to complain about their TV and internet service cutting in and out from weak signal strength from the telephone pole lines. I let my neighbors get charged the $60+ service technician rates for a problem that has nothing to do with their home wiring or equipment.

Then I wait a couple more days and finally see the Comcast bucket truck come out and start adjusting the signal strength on the telephone pole lines for the entire neighborhood.

I'm not getting charged for that crap. I feel bad my neighbors are getting screwed over, but somebody has to get screwed over before the Comcast technicians can finally figure out what the real problem is.

I've also had technicians come to my house and accuse me of causing the entire neighborhood's problems, because I'm the only one in the neighborhood who still has a strong enough signal for my cable modem to work. Everyone else in the neighborhood lost their TV and cable modem signal.

I still had a signal because I disconnected all the splitters in my house and ran the coax cable directly from pole drop line, directly to my cable internet modem. Barely giving me enough signal strength to sync the with Cable Modem Termination System at Comcast's headend.

The technician said, "Everyone else's service in the neighborhood isn't working, but I see your still pulling down bandwidth." No shit Sherlock, I had to disconnect all the cable line splitters in my house to do it, because the signal strength from the pole lines is too weak to run more than one service or use coax splitters.

I hate dealing with Comcast. I hate dealing with Comcast technicians even more. Most of them I've meet are assholes who have no idea what they're doing, and they try to blame me for whatever problems they're experiencing. I don't let them enter my house anymore. They're abusive.
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Anonymous Coward, 22 Jan 2015 @ 7:34pm

Re: Re:
Regrettably, when you've been through enough elections that you know someone claiming to represent your issues doesn't mean they do represent your issues, it is INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT not to become jaded and cynical to the whole idea of a 'best alternative'.

If you don't/can't trust any of them, how can you effectively choose who ~MIGHT~ be the 'best alternative'? Hell, I'm pretty sure that's what got Obama in... and look where that's gone.

On the rare occasion I'm forced to vote by friends or family, I deliberately spoil my ballot to show my total distaste for the the available 'candidates', often after attempts of looking up their policy standings either leaves me retching at the insincerity, or groaning as all I find are attacks on OTHER POLITICIANS morals in some vain attempt at 'Sure I bring nothing to the table, but you REALLY can't trust them!'

For people to want to vote, they have to believe their vote is WORTH something, will DO something. More and more, it has simply been a way for people to choose which lying dick wad is going to ruin the country further over the next 4 years failing to clean up the last guy's mess while simultaneously trying to create their own.
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Padpaw (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:31pm

They are not getting special treatment. It is just that everyone else is getting substandard treatment.
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Padpaw (profile), 22 Jan 2015 @ 8:35pm

Re: Re:
there was supposed to be checks and balances to when those in power are corrupted and when those balances fail people were supposed to revolt and force the system back to a more uncorrupted time.

But instead people stopped caring and just ignored it. The more you ignore it the worse it gets until your either fighting back or being rounded up into camps because your views are different than someone else's, save they have the power and influence to lock away those they don't like
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Ninja (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 3:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
People have advocated to vote null (ie: into a candidate that does not exist here) for a while now and those votes are growing steadily. People also vote by abstaining. Why should I vote if I believe in none of the parties/individuals on the ballot? Sure there are plenty of lazy but we must not ignore the ones that lost faith in the system.

I wholeheartedly support what you are suggesting. Add some "candidate" that symbolizes people do not approve anything that is going on. Now what to do for the further ramifications is a question I can't even imagine how to respond with my current knowledge on politics and society.
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Tim Griffiths (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 6:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
No, it's not mythical and it does exist, even today. Just look to any black market that's out there. The markets for drugs, weapons, human trafficking, etc. are all examples of free market economies. They exist outside of regulations and without property rights.

And if you think you can just pitch up and just out compete your competition on price you are going to end up with broken legs or dead.

I think Fendersons point here is that of course you can say these are free markets if you're using a strict definition of "any market without state involvement" but in real terms those markets are largely not 'free' in any meaningful way. When violent enforcement is used to retain market share then it's not the market that matters no matter how 'free' it otherwise is.
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John Fenderson (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 8:21am

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" but in real terms those markets are largely not 'free' in any meaningful way. When violent enforcement is used to retain market share then it's not the market that matters no matter how 'free' it otherwise is."

Yes, exactly. Black markets are not a free markets at all. Demonstrating this is easy: just try posing a competitive threat in someone else's territory.
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Gwiz (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 8:35am

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Yes, exactly. Black markets are not a free markets at all. Demonstrating this is easy: just try posing a competitive threat in someone else's territory.

You are using "free" in different terms then economist do. "Free" in "free market" simply means free from government regulation and/or intervention. I'm not really sure how you are defining "free".

Actually, your demonstration really proves my point. The danger of bodily harm (or worse) in black markets proves that government intervention and property rights (ie: laws) do not exist there. It's a classic free market system and will always exist with or without governments.
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John Fenderson (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 9:12am

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"You are using "free" in different terms then economist do. "Free" in "free market" simply means free from government regulation and/or intervention. I'm not really sure how you are defining "free"."

What do you mean by "government"? If a business is being regulated by a criminal enterprise, then the criminal enterprise is the government.

If you don't agree with my definition of government, then you're right purely through a dictionary argument. But it doesn't actually lend any light to the discussion.

I define a "free market" as one in which people can exchange goods and services without coercion. Whether that coercion comes from an official government agency or not is irrelevant.
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John Fenderson (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 9:16am

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"People have advocated to vote null (ie: into a candidate that does not exist here) for a while now and those votes are growing steadily. People also vote by abstaining."

Yes, but doing so accomplishes nothing except for concentrating decision-making power into the hands of fewer people. It does not make a coherent political statement. There are, after all, a ton of nonpolitical reasons why people don't vote.
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Gwiz (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 10:00am

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I define a "free market" as one in which people can exchange goods and services without coercion. Whether that coercion comes from an official government agency or not is irrelevant.

Your definition isn't what economists use, so that's where our communication failure lies. Economist use "government or state intervention" in terms of regulations, economic policies, subsidies and things like that which effect the market as a whole. Criminal enterprises in black markets are not interested in such things. Their use of violence in black markets is to enforce their property rights (or to remove your property rights), since what they are doing is illegal and not under the protection of property rights enforced by a government.

My original comment to Violynne still stands. Free market capitalism is the default when governments fall. When the Roman Empire fell, people didn't just sit down in the dirt and die or band together to form a commune. They continued to trade their goods and services like always. The blacksmith still traded his wares for food, raw materials and physical protection.
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John Fenderson (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 10:20am

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I don't disagree with the economist's definition. I think our actual disconnect is more in terms of what we consider to be "government" for this discussion. Criminal enterprises are a form of government.
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Gwiz (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 11:02am

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I think our actual disconnect is more in terms of what we consider to be "government" for this discussion. Criminal enterprises are a form of government.

Perhaps criminal enterprise are a form of government in some senses, but I disagree that they would be considered as such when talking about market systems. Unless they are enforcing regulations for the entire market, they are just a player within the market, looking out only for their own interests and not really caring about the health of the market as a whole.

At any rate, I've spent way too much time trying to decipher economics-speak (and close to giving myself a headache over it to boot). I'll just agree to disagree and leave it at that. Thanks for the thread - I'm always happy when a discussion motivates me into studying things outside my comfort zone.
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tqk (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 2:20pm

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I'm not advocating governmental control of all things. But I'm also not advocating corporate control of all things (which is our current form of capitalism).

Those conspicuously avoid the third and most important option, one I'm especially attached to, individual control.
I'm just saying that if you want a free market, then some regulation is logically necessary in order to have it.

If that means police, national guard, or DoD, I'm in favour. If that means *congress*, I'm wary and against it on principle.
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tqk (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 2:30pm

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There's nothing wrong with capitalism.

Except when it dictates nearly all legislation being passed by congress.

You need to think deeper. The crap that goes on in congress today has nothing to do with capitalism.

The USA needs an electoral authority, as has Canada. Gerrymandering and voter registration crap would disappear, and your democracy would stand a chance.

No, please don't try to slap me with that "the us is a republic" crap. It's BS.
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tqk (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 3:51pm

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It does not make a coherent political statement. There are, after all, a ton of nonpolitical reasons why people don't vote.

Which all should be subsumed under "we don't trust you and believe the system's rigged against us."

I've no respect for those currently running things.
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tqk (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 4:38pm

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I'm always happy when a discussion motivates me into studying things outside my comfort zone.

YOUR COMFORT ZONE DOES NOT CONCERN US. CARRY ON.

It's always amazing to me to watch you guys beg for permission.
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tqk (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 4:40pm

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I'm always happy when a discussion motivates me into studying things outside my comfort zone.

YOUR COMFORT ZONE DOES NOT CONCERN US. CARRY ON.

It's always amazing to me to watch you guys ask for permission.
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toyotabedzrock (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 6:09pm

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If you talk about capitalism being managed you will end up with people in trip corner hats insisting your a communist.
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Gwiz (profile), 23 Jan 2015 @ 6:41pm

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lolwut?
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