Guardian, Salon Show How Keeping And Fixing News Comments Isn't Hard If You Give Half A Damn
from the Walter-Cronkite-is-Dead dept
We've been talking a lot lately about how the new school of website design (with ReCode, Bloomberg, and Vox at the vanguard) has involved a misguided war on the traditional comment section. Websites are gleefully eliminating the primary engagement mechanism with their community and then adding insult to injury by pretending it's because they really, really love "conversation." Of course the truth is many sites just don't want to pay moderators, don't think their community offers any valuable insight, or don't like how it "looks" when thirty people simultaneously tell their writers they've got story facts completely and painfully wrong.Many sites justify the move by claiming comments sections are just so packed with pile that they're beyond redemption, though studies show it doesn't actually take much work to raise the discourse bar and reclaim your comment section from the troll jungle if you just give half a damn (as in, just simple community engagement can change comment tone dramatically). Case in point is Salon, which decided to repair its awful comment section by hiring a full time moderator, rewarding good community involvement, and treating commenters like actual human beings:
"You can measure engagement by raw number of comments or commenters. Using Google Analytics, Livefyre and Adobe, Salon looks at metrics like the number of replies they make as a share of overall comments, how frequently they share Salon articles, and how many pageviews they log per visit. (Users who log in, which is required if you want to comment, view seven pages per session on average, while non-registered users make it to only 1.7, according to Dooling.) After it identified these top commenters, Salon has solicited their feedback and invited them to lead discussions on posts and even help moderate threads.That news is now a conversation and a community is something traditional news outlets have struggled to understand, so it's ironic that a major wave of websites proclaiming to be the next great iteration of media can't seem to figure this out either. For example Verge co-founder Josh Topolsky, spearheading the freshly-redesigned Bloomberg, recently argued that disabling comments is ok because editors are still "listening" to reader feedback by watching analytics and the viewer response to wacky font changes. But that's not the same as engagement or facilitating engagement. Similarly, Reuters and ReCode editors have tried to argue that Facebook and Twitter are good enough substitutes for comments -- ignoring that outsourcing engagement to Facebook dulls and homogenizes your brand.
..."Comments aren’t awful,” (said Salon community advisor Annemarie Dooling). “It’s just the way we position them. The whole idea is not to give up on debate."
Former managing editor for digital strategy at the New York Times Aron Pilhofer, now at The Guardian, seems to understand this point:
"I feel very strongly that digital journalism needs to be a conversation with readers. This is one, if not the most important area of emphasis that traditional newsrooms are actually ignoring. You see site after site killing comments and moving away from community – that’s a monumental mistake. Any site that moves away from comments is a plus for sites like ours. Readers need and deserve a voice. They should be a core part of your journalism."Now -- can you quantify and prove that money spent on community engagement will come back to you in clear equal measure as cold, hard cash? Of course not. But all the same, it's not really a choice. We're well beyond the Walter Cronkite era of journalism where a talking head speaks at the audience from a bully pulpit. We're supposed to have realized by now that news really is a malleable, fluid, conversational organism. Under this new paradigm, reporters talk to (and correct) other reporters, blogs and websites talk to (and correct) other blogs and websites, and readers talk to (and correct) the writers and news outlets. You're swimming against the current if your website design culminates in little more than a stylish uni-directional bullhorn.
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I show up every day at Techdirt and I pretty much read everything printed here. Why? Because I am connected the site, I like what it produces, and I can participate in it's commenting section. It is that last part that gets me to where I care. I care enough to read and I care enough to comment.
For years, publications were trying to get people to respond to them on the internet. To get connected to that site. Commenting was the vehicle that established that. Chunking it out the door means less eyeballs on the page and that means less income from advertisers.
Wonder what is going to happen next to them when they see their readership going elsewhere?
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That's because the totality of the online media industry sees the internet as a *broadcast* medium, instead of what it actually is, a *communications* medium. They TELL you what you want and what they want you to hear, and you are supposed to be a good little consumer and just lap it up and come back asking for more. This is the way it has always been since the early 1900's, and by God, that's the way everything should be, ever.
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removing comments section
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I definately visit sites with comments more, regardless of whether I personally comment. I like reading the conversation that the OP engenders. Of course, that only applies to sites with a well maintained comment system, such as Techdirt. YouTube, and other disposable comment systems, are a turn off.
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I suspect it comes from the pampered view not to hurt anyone's feelings, but it's sold to us as a way to stimulate conversation (which is false).
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It says a lot to me that so many anti-social opinion pieces and 'news' providers fail to provide even simple commenting. Whether a site allows comments or not definitely influences my desire to stay on a site or not.
Additionally, forcing people via Facebook or whatever is also a problem because it's one problem if you don't want an account there - it's another if you can't actually get on (for instance, from work or somewhere with other restrictions).
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Yeah, they really piled on the bile
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Maybe that's how smart new sayings get started.
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Why even bother TD...
If they're having such a hard time with the negative input of their commenters then why, Techdirt, post an article promoting their website if everyone hates them?
Just let it die...without a whimper.
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Re: Why even bother TD...
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Re: Re: Why even bother TD...
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Media don't trust their readers
Allowing users to up or down-vote comments, a-la StackOverflow or Reddit, seems to work well. It's a simple feature. So why isn't it used more?
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Re: Media don't trust their readers
Instead of reporting on mainstream outlets that are digging their own graves...Why not just ignore them so they can die out quicker?
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Re: Media don't trust their readers
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Re: Re: Media don't trust their readers
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Re: Re: Media don't trust their readers
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Re: Re: Media don't trust their readers
Likewise, people who already have their mind made up aren't really the target audience. In your example, if one person asserts "God is real!" and it's followed by "God is fake!" neither are really adding anything to the discussion, and most people are either going to recognize this or ignore the one they don't already agree with.
What news organizations should be looking for are the few people that identify flaws or add additional clarity. One of the reasons I love Techdirt is because the authors are really good at this; I've seen numerous times where articles are updated due to reader comments and others where the author clarifies or defends their position in the comments. This does a lot to add confidence that you're getting a good, thoughtful analysis...after all, if everyone reading the article can't find any issues, it's reasonable to assume their journalism was at least not sloppy.
I honestly read Techdirt almost as much for the debates in the comments as the actual topics, and have learned almost as much from them. News should exist to inform, and, by proxy, educate people about topics the journalists believe are important for others to know. Which teaches someone more...just reading an article, or researching one to defend or attack it because you believe it's correct (or someone else is incorrect)?
We're already living in a world where ignorance on topics is no longer accepted. We have tons of information at our fingertips, and more and more people are having discussions where true and false are easily and instantly verifiable.
My wife went on a walk with a friend of hers the other day, and some brief political discussion came up, and Obama was mentioned. My wife's friend said (I wish I were making this up) "Obama? I know that name, is he a singer?"
There's no excuse for this level of ignorance anymore. Comments sections are a tool for people to sort through the validity of things, and as far as I'm concerned, an article without comments is an article that's trying to distort the truth. Otherwise, why would they be worried about people proving them wrong?
Last thought...just because a comment is voted down (or here, reported) does not mean the comment wasn't valuable. For example, when some idiot spouts their drivel about how "Mike loves pirates because X and Y" it generally ends up with twenty more people linking to sources that indicate that person is full of crap. That means that anyone reading the article who wasn't sure can now verify it for themselves.
Something to think about.
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Re: Media don't trust their readers
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Old news media and old journalists
I'm sure I'm not alone in valuing good insights among comments on good sites like Techdirt. Yes, it's like real life and there's silly and stupid things in between, but there's often excellent value in there. Occasionally I learn more from something in the comments than I do from the story.
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Re: Old news media and old journalists
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What most sites w/o comments fail to realize is that a well written article can generate insightful remarks that the author did not have the time to address. The result is more time on the sight, page views per visit, and more value to the advertisers.
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Re: MailOnline
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They dont like it when people have an opinion, they want to tell you what to believe and they want you to parrot their crap.
If they were really concerned about "bad comments" then they would dump all of their horrible writers and would stop pushing agendas.
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well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
really, one of the shittiest designed and executed websites there is...
frankly, the ONLY REASON i go to saloon, is to see what looney PC, uber-fembot bullshit they are selling that day, and shake my head and laugh at their idiocies...
(been banned from commenting because i mock them mercilessly and they could not abide that...)
libtards like them make me NOT want to be associated with liberal/progressive issues in any way; they disgust me, they have NO principles (otherwise they would repudiate the war kriminal obomber), AND they are anti-freedom in nearly every posture they take...
2. and -of course- the 'listening to their readers' by metrics is bullshit: i go to a site, i may open 5-10 tabs of stories i might be interested in, or merely want to laugh at the lunacy in the comments, BUT, maybe put that in the background while i do some other tasks, and their 'metrics' are telling them i visited, opened a bunch of stories, and was on the web page for HOURS, when -in fact- i NEVER got back around to going back to read the stores, etc...
its not turtles, its bullshit all the way down...
3. MANY times, the comments -good or bad- are WAY more interesting and insightful than whatever article was the impetus for comments... one annoying aspect of that, is when/where there IS an interesting thread of comments, it gets shoved down the list until invisible (IN SPITE of still being active), and is smothered in the cradle...
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Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
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Re: Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
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Re: Re: Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
*tried* to email the site admins, but i am an unclean untouchable, so of course they don't respond...
it is NEVER that i say doo-doo, or fuck you, or whatever, it is ALWAYS because i challenge their received 'wisdom', and would play the devil's advocate on a lot of the bullshit they presented... they no likey opposition, ESPECIALLY if it is presented by 'one of their own'...
banned from pandagon, banned from a bunch of other libtard sites, and a couple conservatard sites...
i think i'm up for most unpopular poster on the inertnet...
hee hee hee
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Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
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Re: Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
...or were you being passively-aggressively snarky, yet not brave enough to simply come out with it ? ? ?
yeah, i'm going with the latter...
(of course, your 'argument' makes no sense, doesn't actually address any points in the article, comments, or my post; but, day-am, wasn't that some golden snark... *snicker*)
WHY my comment is 'the reason why news site are getting rid of commenters.' is not explicated; in all likelihood because you HAVE NO 'REASON' other than a dislike for me personally... thus, you prove you are both a widdle baby who has NO CONCEPT of what free speech entails, and a pantywaist wormtongue...
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Re: Re: Re: well, two bad examples in a number of ways...
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Talking Heads?
Sometimes even well moderated comments can be reductive and lower the discourse of a story.
There needs to be a place in "News" for some well crafted stories that are allowed to stand on their own as well.
The trick is deciding on when and where to remove comments.
The gut instincts of most editors would be to disable comments for articles that would be hot button issues but that would be a mistake.
I think the article here does a disservice by thinking it is always right to have comments not matter what. Life is never so cut and dried.
I also see the irony of arguing about comments in the comments section...
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Re: Talking Heads?
You're one of those permaban from the internet candidates.
Who are you to say people are not allowed to talk about a subject?
Only reason for not allowing would be due to lack of mods or topic is liable to create legal issues. Even then, that's still a mods are gods decision. Mods are *******, always have been, always will be.
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Re: Re: Talking Heads?
Who are you to say people are not allowed to talk about a subject?
The irony is strong with this one.
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TPP abd comments
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one of those unwanted ones
Hold the fucking bus!
The new Guardian design effects the comment section at the Guardian negatively. Only two comments on show by default. Comments now default ordered by newest making it appear dead.
JustSayin
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Re: one of those unwanted ones
I was going to write a FF add-on to skin the site with a "Guardian Classic" look, until I noticed how much garbage there was to wade through in their HTML. Also, I saw a squirrel and forgot about it.
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However, TheGuardian's example is a poor one IMHO because they censor comments that are too critical of their articles or debunking some of the falsehoods in it. Might as well have no comments if you only are allowed to display the 'proper' opinion.
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If your comment was decent but you called a person a cunt in it... If flagged, it will get deleted.
It really isn't that bad, considering the UK laws on being "grossly offensive". In that case the moderation actually protects the users who may say something flippant.
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Here on Techdirt, I hit the report button for these comments as well.
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That's kind of an oxymoron isn't it?
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Forbidden comment topics
What I am saying is that moderators can stifle discussion based on their own viewpoints, and not on whether or not it is civil discourse. On most sites, the level of discourse is kept up by the level of intelligence exhibited by the authors of the articles. If the article is trash, so are the comments. An example of reasonable moderation is the site Metabunk.org. I thoroughly disagree with some of the content posted by the owner, some of it exhibiting denial and unwarranted assumptions, but I have to respect his commitment to an honest discussion, because he obviously tolerates dissent from his opinion.
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Re: Forbidden comment topics
I just say screw it and move along...
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Re: Forbidden comment topics
No surprises in your ban, there are barely any sites that allow you to talk badly about them, not even 4chan.
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1. Reply to a comment that accepts the inaccuracy as fact, and correct the commenter, rather than the author.
2. Couch the correction as an ironic joke or a hypothetical, but link to a source that shows it to be valid.
3. Introduce the correction with "To paraphrase Pynchon,"
4. Never bring a First Amendment to a UK/EU Free Speech fight.
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Salon can suck my comment section
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