Microsoft Retrofitting Windows 7, 8.1 With Windows 10's Privacy-Invading 'Features'

from the unavoidable-Redmond-umbilical dept

Wed, Sep 2nd 2015 5:58am — Karl Bode

Last week we noted that while Windows 10 has generally seen good reviews in terms of spit and polish, there's growing concern that the OS is too nosy for its own good, and that the opt-out functionality in the OS doesn't really work. Even when you've disabled a number of the nosier features (like Windows 10's new digital assistant, Cortana), the OS ceaselessly and annoyingly opens an array of encrypted channels back to the Redmond mother ship that aren't entirely under the user's control.

Now some of the information being transmitted is purportedly harmless, and some of the problems appear to be overblown (like Windows 10 being banned from some BitTorrent trackers for fear of it reporting user piracy activity), but an operating system you can't fully control is still undeniably stupid and annoying. And it's a curious choice for a company intent on moving beyond the fractured Windows adoption of yesteryear and encouraging the lion's share of Windows users to hop on to a new platform.

Making matters worse, Microsoft now seems intent on retro-fitting its older operating systems (specifically Windows 7 and Windows 8.1) with many of the annoying, chatty aspects of Windows 10. GHacks has noticed that four updates to the older operating systems, described as an "update for customer experience and diagnostic telemetry," connect to vortex-win.data.microsoft.com and settings-win.data.microsoft.com. These addresses are hard-coded to bypass the hosts file, and ferry all manner of personal information back to Microsoft.

Fortunately, it appears that users in this instance can configure Windows firewall and routers to block the traffic, and users can avoid much of the snooping by opting out of the Customer Experience Improvement Program (CEIP):

"The concern with the new Diagnostic Tracking service is much the same as with Windows 10's tracking: it's not clear what's being sent, and there are concerns that it can't be readily controlled. The traffic to Microsoft's servers is encrypted, sent over HTTPS, so it can't be easily examined. While the knowledge based articles describing the new service list the DNS names of the servers that the service connects to, there are reports that the service ignores the system HOSTS file. As such, a traditional and simple method for redirecting the traffic doesn't work.

However, we're not sure just how big an impediment this is in practice; in our testing of Windows 8, the builtin Windows Firewall, for example, is more than capable of blocking the traffic, and this appears to be working entirely as it should. Disabling the service is also effective for those who don't trust its behavior."

Still, it's annoying that Microsoft continues to insist on expanding this kind of OS behavior, without making opting out simple and comprehensive. And it certainly doesn't exactly deflate arguments by folks like Richard Stallman, who consistently argue that Windows is effectively malware. More than anything though, it's a continued advertisement for Linux and operating systems that the end user actually has some degree of control over.

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Filed Under: privacy, windows, windows 10, windows 7, windows 8
Companies: microsoft

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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:13am

In other news mass influx in Linux users. Keep it up Microsoft. You making your products as invasive and undesirable as possible pushes people to better alternatives, and that makes me happy.
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Finn, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:14am

CEIP
Just opt out of the CEIP, simple.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
mcinsand, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:18am

'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
Where are these 'good reviews' that you speak of. Maybe it's just the sort of sites that I visit. However, I now feel guilty about holding my tongue when my great aunt said that she was going to opt-in for the 'free' Windows 10 'upgrade.' I know my biases, and I figured that, if she is fine with Windows, then that is her business. For the first couple of days, she just disliked Windows 10. After a month, she hates it. She's asking now when she can test drive what I use (Kubuntu).
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:20am

The biggest malware for Windows is Windows.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:26am

Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
For the non-tech-literate, I'd consider recoomending something more like Mint or Cinnamon.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Josh in CharlotteNC (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:28am

Re: CEIP
Even when opted out and the services turned off, the OS still connects back to Microsoft servers. As mentioned, it's thought that this data is harmless... but it's hard to be certain.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:29am

Microsoft's Walled Garden
Microsoft's walled garden looks more and more like this all the time.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:37am

One more nail
Linux here I come.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:37am

pardon my giggle.

several have predicted this throughout. those now who complain need to understand this isn't the alps we are in, but the foothills.

this isn't going to end well, but it's going to be entertaining.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
This comment has been flagged by the community. Click here to show it

Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:39am

Why isn't Techdirt rejoicing and crowing now that Microsoft proves the value of "free" by giving away Windows 10?

Don't want to be associated with spying crapware? That's my guess from what has NOT been said. One can't pry any actual statements out of Techdirt. I'll just go on to assert that Techdirt sees that Microsoft will do "free" wrong... WAY wrong!

Has everyone heard that Microsoft actually intends to charge $1.49 a month or $9.99 a year for an advertising-free version of ancient Solitaire game? -- Yes, sounds right out of The Onion! -- But apparently (I say because it's incredible), it's not only true, but just part of scheme to charge subscription fees for EVERY little feature now in an ordinary OS bundle!

Given unprecedented wacky but certainly full scale plan of monetizing pieces of "free" softwarez by subscription and immense influence of Microsoft, why isn't this being either touted or hooted here? -- Oh, that one's easy: on one hand Techdirt likes Microsoft, and on other won't risk predicting, especially not when involves this notion of "free". Techdirt's boy-clowns will only cluck sagely and shake heads sadly AFTER this outright lunacy flops, as I predict. -- Even for me is really more of a hope, because if there's one thing I've learned, it's that you cannot under-estimate people who are using Microsoft products. I won't be too surprised if huge numbers actually do "subscribe".

After all, they (that means YOU) have been shelling out every couple years since at least 2000 for marginal improvements -- after several versions of inadequate single-tasking DOS. The invasive spying and arbitrary user interface changes have been steadily increased until nearly all just shrug and go along with it.

This "news" comes a teensy bit late if you read actual "tech" sites. I bet it's because Russia been "filling the internet with toxic disinformation".
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:42am

Re: Re: CEIP
Create an environment variable called SSLKEYLOGFILE. Point it to a text file for SSL keys. Reboot the Windows computer. Open up Wireshark. Set Protocol -> SSL -> (Pre)-Master-Secret log file to the text doc. Filter on the IP to decode ;)
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:43am

Thanks for the article. The GHacks link is very useful.

I'd already decided that Win8/10 are not coming near my systems, this just bumps moving away from W7 right up the priority list.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:44am

Why isn't Techdirt rejoicing and crowing now that Microsoft proves the value of "free" by giving away Windows 10?
Rats. When I forget move text to subject line, of course goes right in. Fixed.
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PaulT (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:49am

Re: Re: Re: CEIP
So, let's see: Microsoft are invading your privacy, and you're not sure if you trust them to stop even after you've asked them nicely.

Solution 1: use built-in environment variables that you hope won't be ignored or deprecated, and obsessively monitor log outputs for anything suspicious.

Solution 2: switch to an OS that you trust not to be spying on you even when you've specifically asked it not to.

I believe I'll be taking door #2, thanks.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:50am

Re:
I was a long time Linux user from RH3 to Fedora 4.

I had several boxes set up so that I could use all the big distributions.

That stopped about several years ago not because I wanted to stop but because to continue I would have had to buy a complete net set of hardware which I could not afford - time wise to set up more than cost wise.

From that experience I learned the following:
Linux will always be completely unstable and never useful for business.

Why?

1. Engineers will not quit tinkering with it. There is no distribution stability thus there is no way a business can depend on the system being the same tomorrow as it is today.

2. Too many distributions.

3. Hatred of commercial programs by too many coders.

4. Impossible to run Windows programs on a Linux box if you are not a super geek. This is important because most business users are not running a computer operating system but a program that does a specific application as such the operation operating system is chosen that will run the program.

5. Hatred, literally hatred of the ides of allowing development of any application that has business applications by a very large number of geeks.

6. Apple's OS which is based on BSD has all the same fundamental issue that Linux has. Not enough users to make it worthwhile for anyone to develop complex business programs for. That is why critical business programs like accounting (to some degree) and CAD (to a high degree) do not run on either Apple or Linux only on Windows.
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Karl Bode (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:51am

Re:
Don't ever change.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
NotBuyingIt, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:53am

Re: Re:
Nice try Microsoft.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:54am

Several BILLIONS of people WON'T bother "opting out" even IF can be done. You few geeks are irrelevant.
That's the real lesson you should get. Corporations will continue to implement the surveillance state and trouble you no matter how you twist and turn. The more you try to evade, the more you stand out as a danger, and not potential but imminent danger to the corporate state.

Those of us who in 2005 could look ahead ten years can only say "told ya so". And 2025 will be much worse. You'll have less privacy than a rat in a cage, not even your thoughts private. Enjoy your googlization.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:56am

Re: Microsoft's Walled Garden
After all, it worked out so well for AOL.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:59am

Re: Several BILLIONS of people WON'T bother "opting out" even IF can be done. You few geeks are irrelevant.
You seem quite giddy in your own little world, enjoy.
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Kal Zekdor (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:59am

Re:
*GASP* *SHOCK*
Windows no longer has built-in solitaire? THE HORROR! The world as we know it will surely come grinding to a halt without this critical OS feature.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:02am

Definitely a nice advertisement for Linux, but lets not forget about Canonical sending your search results to Amazon. My advice, use an Ubuntu variation but not the official version. For those more technically inclined, you can get rid of the problem in the official version by doing this in bash:

sudo apt-get remove unity
sudo apt-get install cinnamon
[ link to this | view in thread ]
PaulT (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:02am

Re:
"Why isn't Techdirt rejoicing and crowing now that Microsoft proves the value of "free" by giving away Windows 10?"

Because it's not particularly new, innovative or notable, especially if the purpose is to invade customers' privacy with trojan horses and spyware. Even if the move wasn't infested with crap, they're still just following Apple's lead. It would have still been a point to congratulate had they not managed to screw it up, but here we are.

"just part of scheme to charge subscription fees for EVERY little feature now in an ordinary OS bundle! "

Are you ignorant of the fact that this isn't a new move on Microsoft's part, are you dumb enough to think that Solitaire is actually a vital part of the OS, are you stupid enough to believe that subscriptions are the only way companies can make money if they don't charge a premium up front, or a combination of all 3?

"After all, they (that means YOU) have been shelling out every couple years since at least 2000"

I damn well haven't - Vista convinced me to finally switch to Linux full time after dual booting for years, and I only used that because it came with the laptop. In fact, I believe that Windows 95 was the last copy I willingly paid for (98 came with a PC, then XP), and I'll bet that the majority of readers here had similar experienced and/or only use Windows because their employer requires a Windows-only application somewhere.

Yet again, you make unfounded assumptions and fool yourself into thinking you have a relevant point, when all you're doing is attacking figments of your own imagination.
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Hope, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:04am

Re: Several BILLIONS of people WON'T bother "opting out" even IF can be done. You few geeks are irrelevant.
"You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."
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Lip, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:04am

According to https://thehackernews.com/2015/08/windows-spying-on-you.html, you can uninstall the tracking updates in Windows 7 and 8.1 by opening up an admin command prompt and entering in the following one at a time:

wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /norestart

Note I've removed the /quiet from the commands as there's no way to know if the previous command finished to let you know to run the next one.
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A Nun & A Mouse, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:04am

Meh.
That's why I make sure to click the link on each download and read what each patch is for before agreeing to let it even download from Microsoft. I actually like Windows 7 though.

I've resisted both upgrading it (I hate the Windows 8 GUI) as well as the inevitable switch to Linux for what feels like forever. A lot of the software I use simply wasn't available for Linux. I also, like a lot of others, felt Linux was too hard to master (i.e. troubleshoot).

I've noticed lately that this is starting to change though. Quite a few of the apps I use are finally starting to show up as Linux compatible counterparts that don't cost any extra and I don't game on my PC, so no loss there if I switched.

If this trend keeps up, we may actually see a monumental shift away from Microsoft Windows some day, which is fine by me. I can adapt if I have to and I think I'd rather force myself to learn a new OS than upgrade to Windows 8 or 10.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: CEIP
It's just a way to decrypt SSL traffic, works exactly the same on linux... I think you need to learn networking and protocols.
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avideogameplayer, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:12am

This might have been the reason Microsoft only got a slap on the wrist from that anti trust suit...
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jackn, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:16am

Re: Re:
Linux will always be completely unstable and never useful for business.

Funny thing how linux beats all other os's in the enterprise by a huge margin.
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PaulT (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:18am

Re: Re:
"1. Engineers will not quit tinkering with it. There is no distribution stability"

Bollocks. There are many different distributions with varying different aims. Some distros are roundly criticised for NOT changing things quickly enough. There's also nothing to force you to upgrade if you don't like it. Unless you're on a support contract, fire up an older distro and stick with that if you prefer.

"2. Too many distributions."

Translation: I'm scared and don't know what I'm doing. There's several well-known distros, but it's Ubuntu and Mint that tend to be focussed upon for the end user side of things. Do 2 choices really scare you?

"3. Hatred of commercial programs by too many coders."

The same commercial programs that refuse to work with FOSS software, that they have to reverse-engineer constantly to get basic file formats to work on Linux? the ones that often show outright hostility to anything not running on Microsoft? Wow, I wonder why?

"4. Impossible to run Windows programs on a Linux box if you are not a super geek"

Utter bullshit, but I can see where you're going with this. You want to run one specific program, you gave up after finding out that WINE doesn't have an easy "click here to do everything for me" button, and thus it's no good for anyone regardless of their needs.

But, let me guess- you're not going to blame Microsoft for it being even more difficult to run a native OSX or Linux application on Windows? Double standards are fantastic, aren't they?

Newsflash: many Windows programs run flawlessly on Linux with minimal configuration and compatibility and toolsets are improving all the time. But, it's not the fault of Linux that you absolutely depend on an application that doesn't run on an OS it wasn't written for. If a Windows box can't run Pixelmator, I don't go whining about Microsoft.

"5. Hatred, literally hatred of the ides of allowing development of any application that has business applications by a very large number of geeks."

Citation needed.

"6. Apple's OS which is based on BSD has all the same fundamental issue that Linux has. Not enough users to make it worthwhile for anyone to develop complex business programs for"

Now you're saying that OSX doesn't have business applications? I'm glad you managed to find this site from whatever alternate reality you're posting from, but please take the time to adjust to our reality before commenting again.

"That is why critical business programs like accounting (to some degree) and CAD (to a high degree) do not run on either Apple or Linux only on Windows."

Oh, right, YOUR preferred niche isn't specifically catered to, so the 99.9% of people who need neither type of application are wasting their time? Glad to see you're blaming the OS instead of the developers for their choice to only support one platform, though. That's the kind of attitude that ensures that millions of OSx and Linux users will never have their needs catered to, and thus continue the cycle of dependence and ignorance.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:20am

ne body hoo nose:

does ms pay overtime for writing to these comments threads or is it just part of the job description?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:20am

Re: uninstall MS malware updates
wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /norestart

Now, you also have to set each of these malware updates to "hidden", so they won't try to re-install.

Set your update options to NOT automatically install, and then when these updates become listed, right-click on them & choose "hide".
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:23am

Would it be possible to sue MS for including these features? They're not what I paid for when I got Win 7, and I don't want them forcibly installed.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Rikuo, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:24am

Re: Re:
Why is it that in a business environment, they'd be looking to use Windows apps in WINE or some other form of virtualization?
The business I work for uses OpenOffice for instance for all their paperwork (still using Windows XP though). There are ports of OpenOffice and LibreOffice for Linux.
Oh, and didn't you know? Supercomputers all mostly run Linux. Want to say to those organisations that they're being dumb for not running Windows?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
MICROSOFT, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:25am

Re: Re:
Check with bonus in the mail.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:25am

Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
It's like Star Trek movies. People loved Windows 7 because it was better that the preceding Windows Vista, which they hated. And Windows 10 comes after Windows 8, which was also widely disliked.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:27am

Re:
One might be better off with:

sudo aptitude purge unity

As that command will also remove dependencies, whereas apt-get does not.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
PaulT (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:29am

Re: Re:
The best thing about this particular piece of ignorance is that Solitaire has been a non-default optional extra in the OS since at least Windows 7 (I believe since Vista, but I'm not in a position to check a Vista box right now), and they have been trying to push paid alternatives since that time as well. According to Wikipedia, Solitaire wasn't included with Windows 8 at all.

So, not only is his moronic drooling attacking a frivolous, optional feature with literally hundreds of free, non-ad supported alternatives available, he's years behind the complaint being something new. But, it coincided in his mind with a claim that Fictional Mike made about things being free, so somehow that makes privacy violation OK or something.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:31am

"1. Engineers will not quit tinkering with it. There is no distribution stability thus there is no way a business can depend on the system being the same tomorrow as it is today."

This is why businesses use enterprise linuxes like red hat. So you can have stable supported linux.

For personal use I recommend debian stable or ubuntu Long term support (LTS) if stability is an issue

"3. Hatred of commercial programs by too many coders."

By who? I hate proprietary software, that's not the same thing as commercial software

"4. Impossible to run Windows programs on a Linux box if you are not a super geek."

Click on wine in software center then click the .exe. so easy a caveman could do it

"This is important because most business users are not running a computer operating system but a program that does a specific application as such the operation operating system is chosen that will run the program."

Often these are linux programs anyway

"5. Hatred, literally hatred of the ides of allowing development of any application that has business applications by a very large number of geeks."

Linux got where it is today by businesses developing it, the fuck are you on about?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:32am

Re:
Bait and switch! Bait and switch! Bait and switch!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:33am

Re: Re:
Not a bad idea.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:35am

Re: Re:
A friend just got a copy of SOL.exe from an older installation and copied it to Win-10. Job done.
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:39am

i read where 75 million installs of windows 10 had been done since it's release. i wonder how many people will still have it installed in 3 months time and if Microsoft will be as quick to release those figures? it will also be interesting to learn what the reasons were for the uninstallations/rolling back of windows 10 and how many would still be using it if Microsoft were not so insistent on wanting to know everything possible about users and where that information goes. i dont suppose it would be to the NSA or FBI, would it? what about to representatives of the MPAA, RIAA or other sections of the entertainment industries?
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Irving, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:42am

Alterning previous versions?
How is this in any way legal?
[ link to this | view in thread ]
Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:44am

1. Engineers will not quit tinkering with it. There is no distribution stability thus there is no way a business can depend on the system being the same tomorrow as it is today.

If you want stability, stick with debian. There's distros that are more bleeding edge, and others with a focus on stability.

2. Too many distributions.

A bit of truth there, but stick to the major ones and you should not have problems.

3. Hatred of commercial programs by too many coders.

Commercial software is often hostile to the interests of the end user. This is the entire point of the Free Software Foundation, which actually supplied the GNU part of Linux. I for one tend to by quite leery of commercial software, and try to stick with open source as much as possible.

4. Impossible to run Windows programs on a Linux box if you are not a super geek. This is important because most business users are not running a computer operating system but a program that does a specific application as such the operation operating system is chosen that will run the program.

True. Microsoft is quite lodged in this area.

5. Hatred, literally hatred of the ides of allowing development of any application that has business applications by a very large number of geeks.

Thats more than a bit unfounded, but so broad its hard to respond to.

6. Apple's OS which is based on BSD has all the same fundamental issue that Linux has. Not enough users to make it worthwhile for anyone to develop complex business programs for. That is why critical business programs like accounting (to some degree) and CAD (to a high degree) do not run on either Apple or Linux only on Windows.

Actually, MAC OS is a pretty different beast because of its closed nature. But yeah, Windows has market share thats hard to overcome. That doesn't make it a better OS, it just means Bill Gates was a shrewd businessman.
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PaulT (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: CEIP
I know exactly what the commands do. I was just commenting on the obvious - if you distrust MS enough to need to keep tabs on them like that, why continue using their product is you don't have to?* Especially since your solution relies on trusting them to honour those commands and log everything correctly and, as the article points out, they already ignore hosts files on this issue. It just seems like a very skewed trust dynamic to my mind.

*OK, you may *not* have the choice of whether to use MS products in a production environment, but that's a different discussion. Yes, if you have no choice and you're savvy enough to keep checking the logs then your solution is fine in theory, but I wouldn't trust them not to be pulling other tricks now or in the future.
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afn29129 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:49am

Bypasses the HOSTS file eh?
Damnitall! Microsoft insists on exfiltrateing the data no matter what. User says no, and Microsoft just laughs in their face.
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A, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:50am

Re: Alterning previous versions?
Sony got away with it on their role-back for PlayStation Linux, though I have not been able to figure out how, from a legal sense.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:00am

Wrong direction, windows 10, wrong direction

Thanks for giving implied intent to be ridiculed, bad mouthed, and CLOSELY monitored, more so then not

Making your life easier by abusing others, just because you can, doesnt mean you should............

I give companies reasonable chances not to show me they are bad companies, you dont have to do much of anything to remain on the good graces list,

just STOP doing the things that put you on the unforgiving bad list

And then their are companies, that get it, show it, communicate it, and prove it........they go on the super duper goody goody i hope they dont sell out due to their low numbers, and thrives...........list
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John Nemesh, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:03am

Re: CEIP
Just opt out of Windows and use another OS...simple.

There, fixed it for ya!
[ link to this | view in thread ]
ltlw0lf (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:07am

Re: Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
For the non-tech-literate, I'd consider recoomending something more like Mint or Cinnamon.

I am very tech-literate and prefer Mint and Cinnamon. But I came from kubuntu, so I can relate.

That was the best day ever, when my best friend told me he was tired of Windows and went out and bought a Mac. Up until that point, I was constantly over at his house helping him or someone in his family with some issue that needed to be fixed. After buying the Mac, and an initial "here is how you move your files over to the new computer," I never got a since tech support call. Wish he didn't have to spend so much money on a decent machine, but at least he isn't calling me any more about problems with his system.

The more people I move off of Windows, the number of service calls for family and friends have dropped drastically (and it isn't that they aren't using the system, I visit their house for other reasons and they usually are using it and show me all the stuff they are now proud they can do on their own without calling.) Far less "please come over and help me remove this virus" and far, far less "please help me fix this corrupted Word document." Apple made it easy, but my dad asked me a while back for help installing Mint Linux on his laptop, so it is getting some love too.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:07am

right now microsoft is general motors 1978, all fat and sassy:

who's gonna buy that jap crap, anyway? we think we know how to build a car, thank you very much.
hey, fellas, has is been long enough? how 'bout another run at fins?

general motors thought it couldn't be touched and thought no low opinion of its customers was quite low enough. when the change began, it was slow to start, but when it got momentum it couldn't be stopped. most people switched cars without knowing why they should. this won't be any different.

goodbye and good luck. but mostly goodbye.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:18am

Re:
Why isn't Techdirt rejoicing and crowing now that Microsoft proves the value of "free" by giving away Windows 10?

Because Microsoft isn't giving Windows 10 away for free. Microsoft has allowed those who already have Windows 7 or Windows 8 to upgrade* for free** to Windows 10***.

* Fresh installs of Windows 10 are "supported", but usually don't work to well unless you first upgrade to Windows 10, and then install a fresh version of Windows 10 over the top of the upgraded version (or use the Microsoft provided Windows 10 reset option that essentially does this for you.) Without doing this, the old Windows 7/Windows 8 key may not get "upgraded" and you'll find that your installation is not-activated and you have 3 days to buy Windows 10 before it gets kicked offline or will have to involve Microsoft in remotely upgrading your key for you.
** Only for retail versions of Windows 7, Windows 8, or Windows 8.1. Users with valid licensed copies of Windows XP, those with enterprise licenses (without software assurance,) or the many other caveats Microsoft has provided will need to pay to upgrade.
*** Most other operating systems provide free upgrades now, Microsoft is arriving at the end of the fad and claiming that they are all innovative and stuff.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:21am

Response to: Anonymous Coward on Sep 2nd, 2015 @ 6:39am
if you don't like the writing, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
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jackn, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:24am

The meaning of 'free software'
Free software developers guarantee everyone equal rights to their programs; any user can study the source code, modify it, and share the program. By contrast, most software carries fine print that denies users these basic rights, leaving them susceptible to the whims of its owners and vulnerable to surveillance.

Learn more here

http://www.fsf.org/
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:24am

Re: Several BILLIONS of people WON'T bother
Your people are over at WND.com. Go join them. It's a nice place filled with old men yelling at clouds, just like you.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:26am

You are all right and wrong.
I think most of you are forgetting the little 60+ year old women and men that are not good with computers, are not willing to learn how to use linux, what do you do with them?

So take all the Farmers in the world, the salesmen, the grunt workers, and try to teach them linux. I can guarantee that you will pull out most of your hair as they ask the same question over and over and over for years. Now take this same group and put them in front of a windows operating system and guess what? You don't have to explain the simple things to them. They can install simple programs or games easily, they can do most things and only have to take their computers in once in awhile to have a bit of service done. Remember most people do not know a geek personally, they have to pay for our time to come out and fix these small problems then they call you a genius.

So for most of the readers here yes we could switch to linux, but for the general population, who have no access to us geeks on a daily basis, or can not afford to have us teach them linux for months and years (costs to much). What do you think that part of the population needs to do?

Also don't tell me anyone can learn linux. We know anyone can but its how long will it take them and how much will it cost them.

Yes users like us need to bring up these privacy issues, to get the majority of people to start squaking so these features get removed.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:30am

"Now some of the information being transmitted is purportedly harmless, and some of the problems appear to be overblown (like Windows 10 being banned from some BitTorrent trackers for fear of it reporting user piracy activity"

What some call overblown, others might call not enough.....by far

Im glad to hear SOMEONES making some sort of stance, but if not enough, then this will become more frequent and even more obtrusive

Has anyone thought, that, information about our persons in one sitution , given without explicit consent, would require another organisation to SUPPOSEDLY require a warrent........what does that mean LAWFULLY, if information about our persons however gathered is then "legally" required to be shared, upon punishment through what ever means i.e. financially, regulatory, "permissions" (to operate/build) etc etc

The digital age equivelent to the redcoats presuming the power to search without warrent, the americas, that lead to a revolution

This digital spying is akin to coporate/government coming up to you, searching and cataloguing you, NOT because your a criminal, but, just because

Seing the road were taking and having no choices to avoid it, is infuriating
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:39am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
Bullshit. Put my tech illiterate friends in front of a linux box and they handle themselves fine.

99% of what they want to do is done in firefox and you click the same icon to run that regardless of os
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Roll Back, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:39am

Re:
"i read where 75 million installs of windows 10 had been done since it's release. i wonder how many people will still have it installed in 3 months time and if Microsoft will be as quick to release those figures? it will also be interesting to learn what the reasons were for the uninstallations/rolling back of windows 10 and how many would still be using it if Microsoft were not so insistent on wanting to know everything possible about users and where that information goes."

Microsoft simply has no way of accurately knowing who has dumped Win10. They obviously see the install downloads needed to make the 17 million plus sound byte. They will be aware of rollbacks if you manage to do a clean rollback from 10. But if win10 breaks and you do a clean Win 7 install, how could they know that?

Win10 was broken on both of my personal laptops and roll back was not possible. Both are Win7 again (Clean factory installs of original OS) Would Microsoft know to debit me from the count somehow? It would be interesting to hear how that might happen.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:42am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
The 60+ year old women and men you are concerned about, they click the icon that starts their program. I have a 75 yo computer illiterate grandma as proof the "learning curve" for icon clicking is nonexistent.
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MICROSOFT, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:43am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
Your check with bonus is in the mail.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:46am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Yes that is one of your friends who has access to you. Now do it with someone who has no access to a tech, and no $$$ for one.

Show me how someone who has no access to a tech is going to install a linux distro when they do not know what a command prompt is.

I am a tech, this is what I do for a living, now get your head out of your ass and think about the regular people out there without someone like us in their lives. They will be lost in linux.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:47am

Re:
"Seing the road were taking and having no choices to avoid it, is infuriating"

Wrong, plenty of choice. Check over at distrowatch.com looking at the popular on the right side, try one near the top.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:48am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Again that is someone with access to a tech for free. Now how about those people that have no access to one, or can not afford for you to come out.

Next time read the post your replying to.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:48am

Re: Re:
Indeed. Windows 10 gets to skate because it's a free distro, but Win 7 was paid for.
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BoogityBoogityBoogity, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:48am

Re: Re:
"...Microsoft simply has no way of accurately knowing who has dumped Win10..."

Well, when their digital spies stop phoning home to the mother ship, that should give MSFT/NSA *some* indication that the 'locals' have outed yet another nest of espionage and terminated them with extreme prejudice!

Makes me want to run a DVD w/Win10 on it through a woodchipper! But I use Ubuntu, have for years, and only use MSFT stuff at work because I have to... ;)
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mcinsand, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:49am

Mint versus 'buntu
Maybe I should take another look at Mint or Cinnamon. Last year, I played with Mint for a bit, but went back to Kubuntu.

FWIW, when I came to Linux, it was after spending decades with only MS or Apple type environments (except for a bit of time with RDOS). Then, with an upgrade at home, I had XP-SP2. I must be the only person in the world that hated XP. It wasn't stable, it kept asking the same questions over and over no matter how many times I checked the 'do not ask again' box, and it also was not great for networking.

I had no UNIX background, and Fedora 2 took some learning, but my life became so much easier within days of dumping XP. People commonly throw out the idea that Linux requires technical literacy, and maybe that was true back in the day. However, for the past decade, or especially now, you're going to need far more technical skill to manage a Windows PC than for Mint, Cinnamon, *buntu, whatever.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:49am

Re: Re:
Microsoft simply has no way of accurately knowing who has dumped Win10.

With all the unavoidable inbuilt monitoring, which uses a machine key, they know when Win10 installations stop talking to the mother-ship. Given that the Internet is now ubiquitous, such drop outs are either machines dying, or win10 being dumped for something else.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:49am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
This is what the Linux people never seem to get. Computers need to get easier to use. Moving to Linux makes them harder to use. It's simply not a solution for most people, and certainly not one they'll make over some minor privacy issues.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:49am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
Also don't tell me anyone can learn linux. We know anyone can but its how long will it take them and how much will it cost them.

Personally, I don't think the differences in the learning curves for a modern day Linux distro vs. the learning curve when upgrading a Windows version are all that far apart. Windows changes locations of everything between versions anyways. Linux has come quite a ways since you had to type everything at a terminal prompt. It's all GUI now. I rarely have to open a terminal anymore on my Debian box.

All the additional programs available in the repositories are an additional plus when dealing with inexperienced users. Would you rather Grandma went to one place and got that recipe organizer that installs and works without drama or would you rather Grandma searched the web and downloaded a virus-ridden installer from download.com?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:50am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Command Prompt? While that is useful it hasn't been a requirement to use in most desktop operating systems for probably a decade. What a great tech you must be.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:51am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Really, she never has me click the icon for her.
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mcinsand, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:51am

I almost forgot!
Oh, and there's one thing that I almost forgot. I get sick of people repeating the antiquated trope of Windows having an advantage when it comes to hardware drivers. That was an issue back in the '90s and early '00s, but those days are gone. I dread Windows installs mainly because of the sucky hardware and driver support.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:53am

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
But did she install Linux on her computer herself with you never going over there?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:54am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Linux was hard back in the day. Today there are Super easy Linux distros. Chromebooks and Android are Linux.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:55am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Moving to Linux makes them harder to use.

What makes you say that? I find the Gnome desktop to be more intuitive than Windows myself.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
She probably couldn't do a Windows install. (which is more difficult than many Linux installers these days) So whats your point?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
If the learning curve was as easy as you say then Linux would be the operating system of choice.

We are talking about average people out there that are not your friends or family and do not know a person capable of teaching them linux.

So again I will say read my entire post before responding, it will keep you from sounding like an idiot, and we all know your not.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
But did she install Linux on her computer herself with you never going over there?

What's that got to do with anything? I'm sure Grandma didn't install Windows herself either.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:01am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
To put it simply: In my opinion, if someone needs to be taught how to use a good, modern Linux distro they will also have to be taught how to use Windows 10. Just my two cents.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:02am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
I have done many a Linux install especially when XP went end of life. I have never heard from most of them, I have had to check in on them. That is not so for friends and family running Windows that contact me about monthly for some reason or other. (Usually malware related)
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:08am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
If the learning curve was as easy as you say then Linux would be the operating system of choice.

The adoption rate of Linux has nothing to do with the ease of operation. It has much more to do with lock-in licensing between hardware manufacturers and Microsoft than anything else. If you have to pay the Microsoft tax on a new computer whether you want Windows or not, why not use the operating system you were forced to pay for?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: CEIP
I think the saying goes "assume everyone is a bad actor" in network/systems administration. Honestly, if I was that worried about it, I would personally use a IDS system to decode the transactions through ASICs. Faster and transparent to the end users, plus the added benefit that you would also protect *nix boxes, network hardware, et al from leakage/abuse.

My only goal was to explain how to decode the traffic, since as quoted: "but it's hard to be certain". As I handle some of this for a living, I thought I would throw out a suggestion. If you don't like that one, you can also hijack schannel with a DLL attack as I do believe that would be a low level system level hack within MS's encryption itself. Check out NetRipper: https://github.com/NytroRST/NetRipper
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John Fenderson (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:11am

Re: Mint versus 'buntu
I have never had any luck whatsoever with Ubuntu. It gives me nothing but problems and headaches.

My standard distro choice is plain Debian, since it's rock solid and never gave me any serious problems on any machine I've used it on. I have used and enjoyed Mint as well, and wouldn't hesitate to recommend it.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:14am

Re: Re:
So, to continue with Linux, you would have needed to buy a complete set of hardware which you could not afford. So you quit using Linux. So.... uh... you got Windows installed on all your old hardware?

What's that smell?
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John Fenderson (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:15am

Re: Re: Re:
" such drop outs are either machines dying, or win10 being dumped for something else."

Or people firewalling off the Microsoft mothership. This is what I do. any machine connecting to my lan cannot talk to Microsoft servers.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:19am

Re: I almost forgot!
Maybe I should take another look at Mint or Cinnamon. Last year, I played with Mint for a bit, but went back to Kubuntu.

It is really a personal preference...I love KDE, but Cinnamon grew on me quickly.

I get sick of people repeating the antiquated trope of Windows having an advantage when it comes to hardware drivers.

I tended to throw away the driver CDs, or they got mixed up and I often didn't know what driver went with what machine. Finding drivers online is great for some companies, but terrible for most (unless you trust windriver or some of the other websites that have drivers available.) And finding a driver for the current OS you are running may be hit or miss, especially if you are using older hardware (since the company would rather you buy new hardware than install old hardware in a new operating system (ahem...Intel...ahem.) Haven't had that issue with Linux at all.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:24am

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
"The adoption rate of Linux has nothing to do with the ease of operation. It has much more to do with lock-in licensing between hardware manufacturers and Microsoft than anything else. If you have to pay the Microsoft tax on a new computer whether you want Windows or not, why not use the operating system you were forced to pay for?"

And this brings us back to why most use windows, its already installed. but most of you want everyone to uninsall windows and put on a linux distro, Do you not see the problem here? Most people can not do that. I know techs can and I know some of you do it for your customers, but for the average person with no tech or no $$$$ to pay you, how do they go about doing it?

This is the problem with linux,to many distro's for the average person to be able to figure out which one they should run. Most average people would not be able to install a distro of linux, or be able to afford a tech to do it.

This is why windows wins. How many computers out there come with Mint linux pre installed that you can buy at best-buy?
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:25am

Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
My experiences are similar. I am also sticking with plain Debian at this time.

Not only did I experience some problems with Ubuntu, I also found Debian's overall philosophy and commitment to the Open Software movement more appealing than a distro controlled by a for-profit company like Canonical.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
but most of you want everyone to uninsall windows and put on a linux distro, Do you not see the problem here? Most people can not do that. I know techs can and I know some of you do it for your customers, but for the average person with no tech or no $$$$ to pay you, how do they go about doing it?

In most cases, simply download the LiveCD, burn it to a disc, boot to the CD drive and then follow the on screen instructions. Not brain surgery anymore. Quite a few distros have Live CD's that will even start the install when you pop the CD in when running Windows.
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ottermaton (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:33am

Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
My standard distro choice is plain Debian,

Ditto. Haven't had issues in, quite literally, YEARS.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:34am

Re:
Fucking around with Linux to make it work is a bigger pain in the ass than fucking around with Windows to make it work.

Linux is great for primary network functionality. Actually accomplishing stuff besides configuring network protocols, editing text files and looking a pron between *intense coding sessions*... not occurring. I know y'all try hard, but if I can't plug in a graphics tablet, USB audio interface and midi controller and have them do what they're supposed to without hunting down 3rd party drivers and fucking with the command line to implement patches of dubious provenance, I just cannot be arsed.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:38am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
We know anyone can but its how long will it take them and how much will it cost them.

How much does it cost them to get Windows re-installed due to a virus infection?
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:41am

Re: Re: Re:
Check with bonus in the mail.

... but please try to come up with something new. These look like 1995 retreads, and we're tired of getting pummeled for the same old stuff all the time.
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Annonimus, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:41am

People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
See the issue with the idea that people will only switch to Linux and not to Mac is that most Mac users are ordinary people who do not understand their OS. Every Linux user has to understand at least some console commands to use it on a daily basis.Until Linux isn't perceived as only for the tech savvy and as something that Joe Average can't use, you will have more people running from Windows to Mac than they will be running to Linux.

Hopefully this current trend of moving away from Windows OS into something else will end up producing an Open Source OS that an idiot can use and understand let alone Joe Average, but I don't expect the Linux community to make that OS unless they change their culture of only making programs for other programmers first.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:44am

Re: Re:
I suggest that you simply lack the knowledge and therefore blame everything but yourself.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:44am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
On an aside:

I've had to use LiveCD versions of Linux to fix Windows problems quite often (especially those wonderful infinite reboot problems Windows has when a registry item has gotten borked or infected). I boot up the LiveCD, access the Windows partition and edit the registry instead of the "recommended" solution of re-installing Windows from the original CD (which the user never bothered to actually burn in the first place) and losing everything the user has created or installed.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:46am

Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
" Every Linux user has to understand at least some console commands to use it on a daily basis"

This is simply not true.

an "OS that an idiot can use"

Maybe idiots should not be using computers
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ottermaton (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:46am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Yes that is one of your friends who has access to you. Now do it with someone who has no access to a tech, and no $$$ for one.

Show me how someone who has no access to a tech is going to install a linux distro when they do not know what a command prompt is.

OK. The librarian at the school where I work. It was for her HUSBAND, both of whom are in their 60s. I gave them a thumb drive over a year ago, and haven't heard a peep since. And, yes, I KNOW they're still using it.

I am a tech, this is what I do for a living

Clearly you're not very good at it.

... now get your head out of your ass

You should heed your own advice.

... and think about the regular people out there without someone like us in their lives.

I have. REPEATEDLY. The librarian mentioned above is FAR from the only person I've gotten on Linux, and always with minimal assistance from me.

They will be lost in linux.

Just because YOU are lost in Linux doesn't mean that people that actually possess a brain will be.
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mcinsand, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:47am

my last driver issue
The last driver issue I faced was with a laptop that was a couple of years old. The computer kept crashing, and it was the wireless driver. After completely removing the old driver and getting a new one from Atheros, you could still count a blue screen after 60-90 minutes of boot-up. Owner got fed up and asked me to install 'whatever it is that you're using.' Bam! One more Linux convert. The install took about 45 minutes after updates, and the laptop only crashes when she boots from the Windows partition.
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ottermaton (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
But did she install Linux on her computer herself with you never going over there?

Have you EVER installed Linux in the last 10 years? It is FAR, FAR, FAR easier than installing Windows.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:49am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
hmm never had to re-install windows due to a virus, if your doing that for your customers, time for you to find a new field of work.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:51am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
"60+ year old women and men"

They are not all computer illiterate as you claim.
Perhaps you are illiterate wrt other's capabilities
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
You can buy them at Amazon. You can buy a larger selection online if you don't exclude yourself to one retailer or Linux Distro.

But since you bring it up. Microsoft knows people will choose something else that's why they do everything they can to prevent major manufacturers preinstalling Linux desktop systems and selling them at major retail outlets.

It's also why they keep moving the settings for UEFI in Windows making it difficult to boot or install Linux they fear a product comparison.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
yes I have, but my question is did she pick out the linux distro and install it herself? It is a simple yes or no. If the answer is no then everything you said is null and void.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:54am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
I did not claim they are all computer illiterate, you just did.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:58am

I will be trying Linux soon
I have an older Windows laptop that is slowing down from age. I will be trying out Linux on it soon and see if I can do what I need to do without Windows. MS is has moved from the forefront to the back of the bus and moves like this are desperate attempts to regain control. I will not be giving them that control.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:59am

Re: Re: Re:
This is the standard answer to complaints on Linux being difficult to use and it's hilarious in how it misses the point. "Oh, it's too onerous to use? Well you must be dumb/lazy."

Or maybe people prefer ease of use to having to research the hell out of making their OS simply work. Not everyone enjoys slogging through forums looking for ways to do everything they could easily do in Windows/OSX.
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Baron von Robber, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:01am

Re: Re: Re:
As a server or locked box.

But as a user platform, I'm not seeing it.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:01am

Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
If you need to use the command line... then you either really know what you are doing, or you haven't got the least of a clue. My guess is the latter
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:03am

Re: Re: Re:
I read that in Comic Book Guys voice, and it was hilarious.

I suggest that you don't actually do anything with computers besides surf the web for pron and do intense coding sessions.
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JoeCool (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:04am

Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
Much of the troubles some people have have nothing to do with Ubuntu in general, but with Gnome. There are several folks recommending Kubuntu above, and I'll throw in a rec for Xubuntu now. Xubuntu replaces Gnome with XFACE, and I've never had a lick of trouble. Plain Debian is great, especially if you don't live on the bleeding edge of hardware/software and keep your computer for years, but if you like to live a little closer to the edge, you'll need something like Ubunutu... just avoid the Gnome distro and go Kubuntu or Xubuntu.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
yes I have, but my question is did she pick out the linux distro and install it herself? It is a simple yes or no. If the answer is no then everything you said is null and void.

No offense, but you seem to be nudging the goalposts a bit here.

If someone is worried about the intrusiveness of Windows 10 enough to make the switch to Linux, they probably will be smart enough to do a little independent research themselves.
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Nastybutler77 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:04am

Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Go fuck yourself you elitist prick. Everyone should have access to a computer regardless of technical savvy, from the elderly to children. If you need a CS degree to be comfortable with an OS, then guess what? That OS has shitty user interface. Get off your high horse.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:13am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
If a home LAN, I presume you allow the machines to get updates. If a corporate LAN, any changes in the number off licenses is visible to Microsoft.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:13am

Re: Re: Re:
Do you seriously think the Gimp and Inkscape are professional grade applications? That Jack/Ardour/Audacity are a usable platform for music production? Why the fuck should I have to jump through hoops to get VST technology to *not crash*, let alone function properly?

Here's what the Ardour manual has to say about VSTs:

" Thanks to the combined work of Torben Hohn, Kjetil Mattheusen, Paul Davis and a few other developers, it is possible to use Windows VST plugins (that is, plugins in VST format built and distributed for the Windows platforms) on Ardour running on Linux. (Note: there is no VST support of any kind on OS X).

However, doing so has three substantial downsides:

It requires a special build of Ardour that is fundamentally very different from normal builds.
Support depends on Wine, a Windows "emulator".
As usual with plugins, a crashing plugin will take Ardour down with it. And crashes in Windows VST plugins are more likely when used in this way.

The dependence on Wine makes it almost impossible for the Ardour project to support this feature. Wine's functionality generally improves over time, but any given release of Wine may behave worse with some or all Windows VST plugins. It may even just crash Ardour completely.

Step back and think about what "using Windows VSTs" really means: taking bits of software written with only one idea in mind - running on the Windows platform - and then trying to use them on an entirely different platform. It is a bit of a miracle (largely thanks to the incredible work done by the Wine project) that it works at all. But is this the basis of a stable, reliable DAW for a non-Windows platform? Getting Ardour on Linux to pretend that its really a Windows application running on Windows?

We understand that there are many outstanding plugins available as Windows VSTs and that in many cases, no equivalent is available for Ardour's Linux-based users. If your workflow is so dependent on those plugins, then remain on Windows (or potentially consider using an actual Windows VST host running inside of Wine). If you can make the effort, you will get a better environment by using a normal build of Ardour and exploring the world of plugins built to run on Linux natively. This covers LADSPA, LV2 and Linux VST formats, and even some outstanding proprietary plugins such as those from LinuxDSP and Loomer. "

So no dude, it's not that I'm lazy, it's not that I'm stupid, it's that your fucking OS just doesn't fucking work.
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Baron von Robber, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:14am

Re: Re: CEIP
Unless your main app is windows only. Then you're fooked. But if you do just general surfing/email. Absolutely, Linus any flavor.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
It is a bit frustrating talking to someone so thickheaded. Your reply is to his post but about someone I setup on Linux. Furthermore this question, already asked and answered. She did not install Windows or Linux. (She could probably handle a Linux install though, since it is way easier than Windows.) Anywhos, no she has two computers side by side one with Windows and one with Linux and she did not install the OS for either one. I installed both. When the Windows one dies it will not be replaced. She can click the icon to start her programs equally well on either operating system.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:15am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
It all comes down to how they use the computer. If all they use is the browser, the only difficult aspect of Linux is the lack of computers that come with it pre-installed. The Chromebook it the ultimate response to this need.

These days, that is all that most home users need. If you get these friends on Linux and make sure they can find the browser, they're set, and you won't get calls.

But if they need anything beyond the very common programs, the odds are that the average user will get stuck. I have seen very few packages that are complete enough, specific enough, and clear enough in their instructions that I myself (a mid level tech) didn't find very challenging to install. Between not knowing what distro they have, to not knowing what folder a package was installed in (when another instruction tells them to edit a file in the install folder), or simply failing to provide a desktop or menu shortcut, there is a much higher chance of failure (having to call someone for help) than the average Windows install.

Most small business people will need assistance getting any business specific software installed, even basic accounting. Even though I think it is likely that their overall maintenance costs will be lower with Linux, the reality is that the majority of the self employed will attempt to work with tools that they can figure out themselves to a minimal level of functionality. It may be a pain, but until someone gets the effort of Canonical behind a build with a better result, Windows will continue to be more likely to achieve minimum function without an insurmountable obstacle.
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JoeCool (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:15am

Re: Re:
They can look for Win7/8 updates from the same address as was previously downloading Win10 updates. That would indicate moving back to 7/8 after getting fed up with 10.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Do you seriously think the Gimp and Inkscape are professional grade applications?

I do. I use Adobe Creative Suite, GIMP, and Inkscape everyday in my profession as a Graphic Designer. Adobe does some stuff better and the OS ones do other things better, but basically they are more or less interchangeable when it come to functionality.
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Good thought, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:24am

Re: Re: Re:
Quota:"With all the unavoidable inbuilt monitoring, which uses a machine key, they know when Win10 installations stop talking to the mother-ship. Given that the Internet is now ubiquitous, such drop outs are either machines dying, or win10 being dumped for something else."

Maybe I don't turn the machine on very often. Say twice a year at tax time. That would be rare though, I see your point.

Cheers!
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"it's that your fucking OS just doesn't fucking work"...

For you. For me Linux Mint works great and is what I use for everything but some web stuff. (Like forums)
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:27am

Re: Re: Re:
Weird. Both you and the OP are right: your rebuttals are entirely valid, but a huge number of people still think of Linux the way the above AC describes it. It's not the complexity of a system, it's the appearance of complexity.

I've had my servers running Linux for over 15 years, but I'm still forced to do my client-side development on Windows boxes. Why? Because the old paradox is still in effect: I develop for Windows because most people still use Windows, and most people still use Windows because the bulk of non-technical software is written exclusively for MS OSs.
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Yes But..., 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:28am

Re: Re: Re:
IP addresses change all the time. Especially if you use Tor or a VPN. I would think Microsoft would want more accurate data then that. How about monitoring the install hardware hash? is that possible?
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:33am

Re: Bypasses the HOSTS file eh?
Microsoft insists on exfiltrateing the data no matter what. User says no, and Microsoft just laughs in their face.

It's for your own good and you should trust us. We're the biggest thing on the planet and you're just one lowly user. Besides, the NSA and MafiAA have our balls in a vise so we have no choice but to give them what they want, and what they want is all of you. Better you than us. Have a marvy day.

Oh, I see you've moved your mouse so we're going to reboot now. Bye for now. You should be able to get back to where you were in about an hour from now. Don't forget to have that marvy day.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:33am

Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
Generally positive Windows 10 reviews:

http://anandtech.com/show/9543/the-windows-10-review
https://www.thurrott.com/windows/windows -10/4896/windows-10-review
http://www.theverge.com/2015/7/28/9045331/microsoft-windows-10-review
http: //arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/review-windows-10-is-the-best-version-yet-once-the-bugs-get-fixed/
http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/28/windows-10-review/
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/soft ware/operating-systems/windows-10-1267364/review
http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-windows-10/
ht tp://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2488631,00.asp
http://www.wired.com/2015/07/windows-10-review/
http ://www.maximumpc.com/windows-10-review/#!
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Klaus, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: CEIP
A few people have mentioned this - switch to another OS. I have the option to do that for my own gear (well, I don't need to, I use Linux/MAC OSX), but at work... that's another matter entirely. I imagine many people, myself included, will be working in environments that use Windows, it's still popular after all.

Microsoft need to be up front about what they're collecting; if anything personal or confidential is involved this could have a bearing in law.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Gimp interchangeable with Photoshop.

Even devout Gimp afficianadoes don't think that.

I admire your brand loyalty, I admire the upper case importance of you being a Graphic Designer, but that's a silly, silly thing to say.
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Tice with a J (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Hardly. She didn't pick out and install Windows, did she?

Personally, I've installed three different versions of GNU/Linux on computers I own (Ubuntu, Mint, and Fedora) but I've never been able to install Windows. I did try; I removed my Linux installation, stuck in my Windows install CD, and did my best, but I failed. I've stayed with FOSS OSes ever since.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:36am

alternate os
Well thank the deity, I still have XP, 95 & OS/2 to fall back on.
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PRMan, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:39am

Re:
Strange. I've been playing solitaire (without even logging into my Microsoft account) since I got Windows 10. I haven't paid anything and I've played about a hundred hands.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I know people who say the same thing about Win98.
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Tice with a J (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:40am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
So just what did you mean when you claimed that they weren't good with computers?
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:43am

Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
If you need to use the command line... then you either really know what you are doing, or you haven't got the least of a clue.

Every time I've ever tried to figure how to do something in Linux that wasn't obvious, 90-100% of the help I can find online is command line only. And most of the suggestions are stuff I don't understand, and I used to used Linux regularly from the command line. To an average user, it may as well be Aramaic. To me, that is one of the biggest obstacles to widespread Linux adoption - I don't think the technically illiterate really want to muck with the command line.

On the other hand, maybe all anyone really cares about is having a browser, in which case you wouldn't need to look for help online.
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Phoenix84 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:46am

"These addresses are hard-coded to bypass the hosts file, and ferry all manner of personal information back to Microsoft."

Ok, I'll block the DNS and IPs at my router.
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:49am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Show me how someone who has no access to a tech is going to install a linux distro when they do not know what a command prompt is.

Hi. :-) That's how I started out. Where do you think Linux geeks came from? Do you think we just spontaneously *poof* into existence?

If you can put a DVD in a DVD drive and reboot a computer, you can install Linux, and that's been true for quite a while now. The more times you do it, the better results you'll get. Stumble around the user interface and in the installed programs a bit and you'll see they're not all that different from those you already know. They just look a bit different.

The best part is, this stuff respects your wishes and isn't out to rob you because you're ignorant, or sell your PII to people you've never heard of. Updates and upgrades are free too so as long as your hardware keeps working, you may never need to install again.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Just my observation, my friend. Your results may vary.

For what I use them for in my daily work load they are basically interchangeable. For some things, like filter effects, I find the OS ones to actually be easier with fewer steps. I am on an older version of Adobe, so that might make a bit difference too.

The price comparison obviously is tilted towards GIMP, since it's free and what does Adobe CS run these days? $4000 a seat? Another plus is that I can run GIMP with or without a internet connection (ie: on-site at customer's location) and you can't even begin to run Adobe Cloud without it phoning home.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:53am

Re: Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
Xubuntu replaces Gnome with XFACE, and I've never had a lick of trouble.

It's actually XFCE.

http://www.xfce.org/

Runs great even on really old crappy hardware. I put it on a netbook that just barely sort of ran Win XP and it was fine.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
Correction, it's now Xfce - because it doesn't stand for anything anymore because it doesn't use XForms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfce#History
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:58am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Because Windoze never has issues that need attention.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:58am

Re: Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
For the non-tech-literate, I'd consider recoomending something more like Mint or Cinnamon.

To be clear, Mint is a distribution, and Cinnamon is a desktop environment built for Mint, and is also available for other distros.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon_%28software%29#Adoption
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:59am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your assumption is incorrect, but please - do continue.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:59am

Re: Microsoft's Walled Garden
Microsoft's walled garden looks more and more like this all the time.

It's spyware, but not a walled garden. Compare Windows to AOL (back in the day) or iOS, and it's completely different.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:00am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Your whining is getting a bit tiresome
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:01am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's a far cry from 'Gimp and Photoshop are interchangeable'.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:03am

Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Perhaps it is you that is (insert personal attack).
Who suggested a degree was necessary?
I do not own a horse, if I did it would;d not be getting high.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Truth is *painful*, isn't it?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:05am

Re: Re: Re: I've used linux since kernel 0.98, and:
Yes, linux does have a version stability problem. It doesn't really matter which distro you use, ALL of them have made huge architectural changes with little or no warning. The only exception might be Arch, who embraces the suck instead of awaiting the next tsunami.

I remember Ubuntu changing the whole X windows framework and default windows manager in a MINOR upgrade revision. And that is just one example, there have been dozens of WTF moments in Slackware, Debian, etc. etc. etc.

And there is obviously some EEE stuff going on in the Linux world, predominantly coming out of Redhat. While nobody refutes that a better subsystem was needed for implementing the newer kernel features, systemd was pretty much an irish car bomb dropped on Linux. Probably at the behest of Redmond in response to some back room deal. (INI files, and symlinks? Jesus....)

Application stability IS a problem. Divergent OS trees result in divergent source dependency trees, and getting more than a few consumer apps working at the same time sucks.

Configuration uniformity is terrible and getting worse, and YES even security is an utter fustercluck. It is fair to say that the dickishness that has steered a lot of development away from OpenBSD, IS the more enlightened way.

It is hard to explain to people, that there are HARDWARE problems that need to get solved before you should be doing certain things with software.

Intel and AMD are both suffering because those architecture problems aren't getting solved. The software industry won't port software to new hardware, unless they MAKE money doing it. And right now their financial holdings in bandaid companies like Norton reflect enough of their core revenue stream, that they have ZERO motivation to make anything more secure.

So broken and insecure is more profitable that repaired, and the liars are the only ones making money. Most people would rather get owned than go without their narcicism accelerator 14.1 application. That is just the way it is.

At this point the impetus is on AMD and Intel, or some new chip company to blow the doors of the market, by making an architecture that is designed to provide hardware level code isolation. Then convince the fed to mandate all federal computers use that hardware, and bobs your uncle.

But nope. Apparently not a lot of folks at Intel or AMD heard Linus when he said:
This is not a d**k-sucking contest. And THAT is why the Internet is busted.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
" I presume you allow the machines to get updates"

The Win box at home is air gapped for good reason
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:07am

Re:
For those more technically inclined, you can get rid of the problem in the official version by doing this in bash:

sudo apt-get remove unity
sudo apt-get install cinnamon

If you don't already have Ubuntu installed, is there an advantage to using Ubuntu with Cinnamon over Mint? I'm not looking for exhaustive feature lists or anything, just like "yes it has features Mint doesn't" or "yes it supports more hardware" or something like that. Or "no". ;-)
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
So again I will say read my entire post before responding, it will keep you from sounding like an idiot ...

Some of us have been listening to screeds like yours for over two decades and we're getting a little impatient that you still haven't bothered to clue in. It's getting pretty tiring from repetition. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Maybe we can't save you, but I'll bet you can if you try.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:11am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Actually quite the opposite.
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PRMan, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:14am

Re:
The 75 million were unique website hits. Microsoft doesn't control this number and if some people roll back, this number will go down.

But there are a lot of people that like Windows 10 and are comfortable that turning this stuff off mostly turns this stuff off and aren't worried about it.
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PRMan, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:15am

Re: Re: Alterning previous versions?
Because you could continue to use it for Linux or use it to play newer games, but not both.
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PRMan, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Windows 10 has finally caught up to Linux in ease of install.
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ottermaton (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
In my case with the librarian and her husband I referenced in my other comment the answer is a big, fat HELL YES THEY INSTALLED IT THEMSELVES

And that is true of just about everyone I know who has made the jump, with or with out my encouragement.

So, let's you just say that it is you, as a tech, that is null and void, shall we?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
So... you can't make it work either?
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
You can buy [Linux computers] at Amazon.

Look at that, you can! For example:

http://www.amazon.com/CybertronPC-Axis-LyNX1-DT3204B-Desktop/dp/B00R33ZR9Q

http://www.amazon. com/Acer-Veriton-DT-VKWAA-002-Desktop-Black/dp/B00QL57TTI
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ottermaton (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Really? I haven't (and won't) bother with Win10, but that's funny the way you say that Windows has finally caught up to Linux. ;-)

I wonder, though, is it just because of the coerced OTA "upgrade", or is it really easier to install from scratch?
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Padpaw (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:29am

Thank you so much for this article it's times like this I am very happy to use this site.

Even better to have links to how to disable these intrusions upon our privacy.
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Baron von Robber, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:35am

Re: Re: Several BILLIONS of people WON'T bother
WND, I'm sure it stands for Wackos Need Drugs.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:37am

Linux is Easy as Pi
It is absolutely amazing how many posts are here by people who claim to have used or use Linux but can't make it work and frequently talk about the command line.

Linux is simpler to use, and simpler to install. I don't use the shell (command line) on my desktop, only on servers. Everything just works and Windows is as it always has been the OS that regularly needs support.

I don't find Linux difficult at all. I was in the IT field and switched to Linux because it's obviously the future. Life has just been so easy with Linux that I have become lazy and don't want to deal with all the nonsense Windows support requires.

The Distro I prefer to use is Linux Mint.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
That's a far cry from 'Gimp and Photoshop are interchangeable'.

For me, it is. I could continue to keep up with my workflow with either one, with the possible exception of the lack of the proprietary Pantone Color System.

The issue of CMYK in GIMP has been addressed with a plugin. Although I've never used it since we get better results printing to our solvent ink jet printers with RBG anyways.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:40am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
You must have the if you like it you can keep it ObamaVirus plan.
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PRMan, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:43am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
1. Simply download the Live CD

Assuming we stick with the most listed Mint, which one do they download?

Cinnamon 32/64, Cinnamon no codecs 32/64, Cinnamon OEM 64, MATE 32/64, MATE no codecs 32/64, MATE OEM 64, KDE 32/64, Xfce 32/64

2. Burn it to a disc

Most people don't know how to do this. I would rate this as a medium problem. A USB stick image is probably easier and more universal.

3. Boot to the CD drive

Most users don't know how to go into the BIOS or how to change the boot to anything but the hard drive.

4. Follow the on screen instructions

The easiest part.

5. Devices don't work

You forgot this part. About 50% of the time, everything will work and even printers will already be there. Great.

But then you have hardware that doesn't work. And getting it to work involes arcane command line processes. And before you say it doesn't, even getting the fast NVidia drivers (the most common driver in the world) requires:
a. blacklisting Nouveau (requiring a textfile change)
b. updating grub2
c. rebooting
d. accepting lower graphics
e. installing the graphics driver
f. running nvidia-xconfig
g. rebooting (most people are not going to know to hit Alt+Ctrl+Print_Screen+K to restart X)

This as opposed to (in Windows XP/7/8):

a. go to nvidia.com
b. click download, run, next, next, next, finish
c. it asks you to reboot and you say yes

And in Windows 10:

a. it automatically does it for you
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
I thought you mentioned a Linux Mint machine.

http://www.amazon.com/MintBox-IPC-D2x2-C3337NL-H500-WB-XLM-FM4U-BMint-2-Desktop/dp/B00EONR674/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441219346&sr=8-1&keywords=mintbox

Oh but you where pushing an agenda that this link puts a small hole in.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Or click this link http://www.amazon.com/MintBox-IPC-D2x2-C3337NL-H500-WB-XLM-FM4U-BMint-2-Desktop/dp/B00EONR674/ref=sr _1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441219346&sr=8-1&keywords=mintbox
click "Add to Cart" Adjust quantity as desired and click checkout.

Or hire me. I managed to do it, but it was way easier than your instructions.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
What can we do to help your myopic vision?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
What about LAB mode? CYMK AND LAB would make gimp a valid solution.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:59am

Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
If you do break your Linux system AND find the shell too daunting AND can't/won't pay for support, you can do what the majority of home Windows users do in similar situations. Backup your data, pave and reload.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Fair enough. I've never had too many hardware problems on any distos I've installed so far, but Ok.

And yes, the NVIDIA driver problems have always existed. But if you want to blame anyone for that, blame NVIDIA for being dicks and ignoring the Linux community for so long. Although those problems are being addressed and (hopefully) will be less of a pain in the future.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/09/nvidia-seeks-peace-with-linux-pledges-h elp-on-open-source-driver/

Ok. I'm bailing out of this discussion now. Bottom line, in my humble opinion, is that if you wish give up more and more of your privacy to Microsoft (because who knows what spyware the next update from Redmond will bring), because it might take a little bit of learning and patience to get going on Linux, have at it. I, on the the other hand, will opt to keep control of the hardware I purchase.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I do believe they do it for residential/SMB as well, but I know it's done with Volume Licensing. Basically, large corporations use something called a KMS server, which counts the number of copies of Windows and sends that information to Microsoft to validate billing. The information that is sent is called a Client Machine ID (CMID) which is basically a hardware hash. The problem is when you are running a huge number of servers things can get out of wack. Mainly I've seen it from using templates with sysprep. Basically, it turns an computer with all the updates needed into a fresh install, but since everything is the same you have to use /generalize or it won't count up the license count and could get you a rather nasty audit.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:15pm

Reading these threads, and seeing devout Linux adepts arguing with no lack of intensity about the stability/usability of a seemingly endless array of distros/environments is not a compelling advertisement for Linux as everymans OS.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:18pm

Re: Re:
If you want Cinnamon, go with Mint, is is Ubuntu with Cinnamon pre-installed, along with various codecs that are an extra step to install in Ubuntu.
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:34pm

Re:

These addresses are hard-coded to bypass the hosts file ...

Ok, I'll block the DNS and IPs at my router.

You don't consider that an unnecessary imposition? You don't mind them sneakily avoiding your wanting to control your property?

On the other hand, there's other alternatives available which don't do that sort of thing, but it's up to you; your box.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:36pm

Re:
Having choices is a bad thing to you? Interesting.

Just out of curiosity, do you have some sort of vested interest (like your paycheck perhaps?) in keeping Windows as most used OS?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:38pm

Re:
Reading the story itself is not a compelling advertisement for Windows as anymans OS.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:42pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Assuming we stick with the most listed Mint, which one do they download? Cinnamon 32/64, Cinnamon no codecs 32/64, Cinnamon OEM 64, MATE 32/64, MATE no codecs 32/64, MATE OEM 64, KDE 32/64, Xfce 32/64?

Linux Mint website: "If you're not sure which one is right for you, "Cinnamon 64-bit edition" is the most popular."

I know this Linux stuff is so hard. ;)
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jupiterkansas (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:55pm

Re: Re:
I think you overestimate how much the average person cares if their software sends data back to the company that made it. It's about as much as they care that their phone/Facebook/email data is also accessible.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 12:59pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Oh but you where pushing an agenda that this link puts a small hole in.

I don't know what you're talking about or if you replied to the wrong person since I don't remember mentioning a computer with Mint preinstalled. I had no agenda, you mentioned that it's possible to buy Linux computers on Amazon. I didn't know that, so I went to check it out and posted some links in case anyone else was curious too. That's all.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Mostly as servers, do you think users don't access servers?

You are 'using' a linux server at this very moment.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:02pm

Re: Re: Re:
I didn't even know Mint was Ubuntu based! Someone needs to fork Mint to make a distro that's based on Mint which is based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. ;-)
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:03pm

Re: Re:
m$ has blinded you
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:03pm

1:00PM PST... Lunch break is now ended in Redmond. Let the comments resume.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
I've never had problems with Ubuntu, but I just run eclipse and arduino ide (the old one). not to demanding but I can develop with a $50 computer.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:09pm

Re:
These give people a choice between regular and frequent updates to the OS, like Fedora, long term supported releases, like some Ubuntu and clone releases, or rolling releases Like PCLinuxOS. All the distros basically run the same software, though often different releases. Want stability for a business, go with Debian, or a Ubuntu/Mint LTS. Want stability and up to-date software, go with a rolling release Like PCLinuxOS Which I have had running on a machine for the past & years with no problems. Want to live dangerously and have the most up to-date software, Install Arch, and live on the bleeding edge.
Saying there are too many choices of Linux distros is like saying that there are too many choices of cars., which car you get depends on what you want out of a car, similar which distro you get depends on what you want out of an operating system. However unlike cars, it costs nothing to try out different distros except for a bit of time for a test drive.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:09pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
yep, better than windows AND, you can use your Linux live CD to fix a broken windows machine.
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jackn, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Uh, besides servers, got any non m$ phones or tablets? Not only is linux the future, the future is now.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:12pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
There ARE a couple of distros based on Linux Mint.

Did Microsoft write Windows 10 from scratch or is it based on a preexisting OS? ;)
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zahidul (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:13pm

Operating system
ya.. I think windows is better than Linux OS. Windows is working more n more for improve on their operating system. Now you can see that windows 8 is better than windows 10. I hope it will be better soon
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:19pm

Re: Operating system
Hahahaha ROFLMAO
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 1:35pm

Re: Re: Re:
...their phone/Facebook/email data is also accessible...

I have a real world example for you. I've a friend who's a home attendant care aid. They just got a terse memo that their time cards could NOT be submitted via a smart phone. They have to fax, email, or submit in person, and if they email it has to be from a PC. Why? The agency got threatened with a HIPPA violation because the employees have to identify their patient(s) served on their time cards, and too many smart phone apps require access to email and contact list. The agency doesn't have the time or money to figure out a VPN setup for smartphones, assuming the employees' phones could handle it. Even if they did, would this 'reporting' still occur with VPN data?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:11pm

Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Every time I've ever tried to figure how to do something in Linux that wasn't obvious, 90-100% of the help I can find online is command line only.

The same often applies to window help as well, there is an example in the comments on this article. There is a simple reasons for this, it is easier to tell someone what to type that it is to describe the navigation through menus and tabs of an application. Also in the case of Linux, the command line is ubiquitous, but the graphic front ends are more variable.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:24pm

Re: Re: Re:
MS has nothing to do with the fact that the applications I use to earn money won't run on Linux.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:26pm

It's time for me to make a Linux partition.
I have a lot of Windows games and I don't know how well they will run on Wine, especially since I have an AMD / ATI PC and there are rumors that the support for those is minimal on Linux.

Maybe with this alignment of the Microsoft stars so that the elder gods can awake will change this, and motivate device devs to make proper AMD / ATI drivers.

I've already weaned myself pretty much from MS office, though I rely on some sweet plaintext editors for much of my work, and the Android selection for those is wanting.

But yeah, in the next couple of years, I may need to decide to cease using Windows altogether now that Microsoft has become hostile to end-users. And I've been wanting to get more Linux savvy anyway.

So, Linux Mint, huh?
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:36pm

Re: Re:
My paycheck involves me being able to run a bunch of software that Linux can't run, and use a bunch of hardware Linux can't support. I know it's hard to believe that computers are used for other things that what you personally use them for, but it is a thing that happens. Linux isn't ready for primetime for musicians. It just isn't.

Out of curiosity, are you usually this paranoid, or just when the utility of your pet OS is questioned.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:36pm

Re: Operating system
Just to be clear I wasn't commenting on your spelling or grammar, I could care less. I was commenting on the content. Specifically "working more n more for improve on their operating system".

Be it options, number of programmers, man hours, lines of code, features, update/release intervals. By nearly any conceivable metric Linux development far outpaces that of Windows.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:45pm

Re: It's time for me to make a Linux partition.
For your games needs, look at steam, and/or visit the the ratings list at winehq.
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Mark Wing, 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:46pm

I've been writing code for and have worked with every version of Windows ever released. I carried the torch for them for two decades.

These privacy-invading features are unacceptable to me as a Windows developer. Within the last year they've supposedly gone back to their roots and focused on developer tools and the developer experience, but there won't be any users to develop for if MS drives them all away with bullshit like this.

If I wanted to work for an evil platform, I'd be writing iOS apps instead.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 2:51pm

GNU/Linux is the only way to go.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:03pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
There ARE a couple of distros based on Linux Mint.

Excellent, now to fork those! What should it be called, Breath Mint? Cinnamon Challenge?

Did Microsoft write Windows 10 from scratch or is it based on a preexisting OS? ;)

The latter, but I'm not sure if you're trying to say that's the same situation. It isn't, for various reasons.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:08pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
The same often applies to window help as well,

Not in my experience. Now and then I find some advice about the command line, but I think more often not. Sometimes I'll run into something requiring editing the registry, which though not a command line is arguably as bad or worse. Again that's just me, I don't claim to have access to perfect data.

Also in the case of Linux, the command line is ubiquitous, but the graphic front ends are more variable.

Which means that will be a very difficult problem to fix (unless I'm wrong and it really isn't a problem at all).
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:25pm

Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
You are aware that both of the top phone operating systems are linux/unix based right? Android is linux. People use it every day without even knowing what a command line is, much less needing it. IOS is BSD, and people use it every day without even being ABLE to access a command line, much less needing to know what it is.

Mint and Ubuntu are both easier for your standard user to grok than Windows is. Windows just has the advantage of a dominant position making everyone get trained for it.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:31pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Please articulate.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
But will window 10 allow you to stay air gapped, or will it insist on phoning home to validate its license?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:44pm

Re: Re:
2. Too many distributions.

Buying a car must scare you, with all the different makes and models that are available on the market.

3. Hatred of commercial programs by too many coders.

The Free Software Foundation is not opposed to commercial programs, so please, stop lying about what their motives are. The problem is probably a the common misunderstanding of Free Software (and software engineering in general), where it is assumed that preventing the customer from seeing (or modifying) the source code is somehow prevents running a for-profit business.

Javascript is an existence proof that this assumption is incorrect. So are the numerous business - IBM, for example - that release their software under a Free Software licence. Do you really want to accuse IBM of "hating commercial programs"?

No, what you perceive as hatred are is a software model that respects the rights of the user. Typically, the only people that have a problem with that are the people that were trying to take advantage of user ignorance, often by hiding the shoddy quality of their work, and sometimes by hiding questionably-legal business practices. Stalking people and trespassing are still crimes, and the rights the the publisher still end at the first sale, regardless of whatever unconscionable terms people trying to throw at the user in an "EULA".

5. Hatred, literally hatred of the ides of allowing development of any application that has business applications by a very large number of geeks.

Now you're just making stuff up to fit how you wished the world worked. Or you're a paid shill.
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nasch (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
You are aware that both of the top phone operating systems are linux/unix based right? Android is linux.

When someone discusses using a Linux system, they are not talking about Android, regardless of how much Android is based on Linux.
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Jake, 2 Sep 2015 @ 3:54pm

Re: Re: Re: CEIP
Even if your main app is Windows-only you're not necessarily screwed. There are very few programs that cannot be made to run in Wine given a bit of patience and research.
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Jake, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:01pm

Re: Re: Re: Mint versus 'buntu
Lubuntu's pretty good as well. Its version of LXDE is close enough to the XP desktop that you could change a few of the settings and the archetypal little old lady who's not very good with computers might not even notice she wasn't on Windows XP anymore.
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Mark Wing, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:07pm

RE: What Windows is based upon
Windows was originally based on the OS/2 kernel which it developed jointly with IBM, who definitely got the worse end of that deal because at the time, OS/2 was superior to Windows in almost every respect.

Kernels are hard to write, and it's what makes or breaks the OS as a whole. It's where all the deep voodoo is. Any child with a compiler can build GUI apps, but building the guts of an operation system takes real mojo, and most people are posers.

So we all cling to a small handful of operating systems. And that's why the secret, baked-in ingredient in some of them is evil: lack of choice. Just like we see in other areas of IT.

Linux is getting there, but it's still not something my mom can run. It still has the attitude of "real men use command lines." And my mom will never, ever use a compiler, even if you give her a batch file to double click on.

I'm pulling for Linux, though. I have a Raspberry Pi running the KDE desktop and it looks like Windows 7 on a 35 dollar, quad core computer. Linux still has a long way to go, though. It has to be mainstream before we will ever see an end to these type of privacy shenanigans. And to be mainstream, people like my elderly mom need to be able to function with it.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: CEIP
Also, make a copy of the the Windows DLL directories before you blow windows away, or dual boot for a bit. Having access to the DLLs is useful when trying to get things to run under wine.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
So when people talk about patching something in Linux it magically doesn't apply to Android?
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:17pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
The workload for the Devs at Google just got lighter.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:27pm

Re: RE: What Windows is based upon
ElementaryOS and Linux Mint are two easy to use distros that you don't need to even know there is a command line. Those two make Mac OS X and Windows seem hard to use.

Seriously there has been and continues to be massive progress in ease of use with many Linux distros. What I have used on the Raspberry Pi have been lightened a lot for the hardware. They are functional but not as user friendly.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 4:31pm

Re: It's time for me to make a Linux partition.
You might try it on an external USB drive. On my old IBM r50e (a very good notebook with limited resources) I had a partition with XP, another partition with Xubuntu (created without removing Windows), and an external drive with KDE on it. I ran this for around 6 years until XP expired, and I wanted to use my external drive for other things, so I wiped the notebook disk and put Xubuntu on it several times, until I had it the way I wanted (I like to try new things and sometimes they don't work the way I wanted). This worked until that notebook was stolen a few months ago.

I should mention that I have no technology training but had a resource for Windows questions, though every time I asked a why question he would point at a book on Assembly Language and tell me all my questions would be answered there. I never read it.

I learned what I know of Linux via the do it, try it, fix it methodology, and a lot of reading very thick books that made little sense to me. Today it is easier, as the answers to most of my questions are available online and those pesky command line thingy's can be copied and pasted into the shell.

Then again, I like puzzles and figuring things out, not everybody does. I am currently running Raspbian on a Rasbperry Pi, and it is far from satisfactory for all uses.

My next computer will be a Linux based notebook from the get go, though I will switch out whatever is installed for pure Debian (as John Fenderson suggested above) and see how that works for the uses I can think up. If not, I can always go back to Xubuntu.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 5:01pm

Re: Re: Re:
My paycheck involves me being able to run a bunch of software that Linux can't run, and use a bunch of hardware Linux can't support.

Have you actually verified these statements or are you just dismissing Linux out of hand?

I know it's hard to believe that computers are used for other things that what you personally use them for, but it is a thing that happens.

Nice dismissive statement there, irrelevant to our discussion, but nice.

Linux isn't ready for primetime....

In your opinion, not mine. You haven't put forth any viable enough arguments to really change that.

...for musicians. It just isn't.

Wait. When did we limit our discussion to musicians? I missed that part.

Out of curiosity, are you usually this paranoid, or just when the utility of your pet OS is questioned.

Paranoid? No. Concerned about the slow erosion of privacy and security in this day and age. Yes. Very much so. Just as I've always been.

One of the first computers I've owned came with PC DOS 1.1. I've watched Microsoft their entire lifespan. I simply do not trust them anymore. Linux gives me an alternative. It's that simple.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 5:10pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
One person's truth is another's bullshit
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 5:14pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Good question, luckily I do not have to find out
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 5:16pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I have been saying Linux is easy to use and works great for me and those I have set up on it. That high pitched sound has been coming from you and the other Windows shills possibly trying to distract from the latest Windows "Feature Set".
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 5:43pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Gwiz, I totally agree with you on ease of use, but I truly think the main factor holding back Linux is really just support. I really think Apple was able to bring *nix out of obscurity not by being the best OS around, but by having a good team to support end users. It wasn't always in-house but also integrators familiar with the product enough to help the end users. The main problem in my eyes is fragmentation of *nix community. So I run CentOS based off of RedHat, you run Debian or a derivative like Ubuntu, and the guy down the street runs PC-BSD, what distro is the highschool kid supposed to learn to get really proficient at being a Sys Admin. Sure after awhile, he'll probably learn the differences and work around most issues, but it's certainly not promoting *nix, FOSS, or OpenSource...
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:04pm

Re: Do you seriously think the Gimp and Inkscape are professional grade applications?
Gimp, Inkscape, Blender, Krita, MyPaint, ImageMagick, G‘MIC, Python, Scribus, LibreOffice, plus a whole community of addons and scripts for these tools—the lot. They work as a team. Put them together, and no proprietary application can stand a chance.

By all means, try to put together a proprietary-application team to compete against that lot. Photoshop, Maya, After Effects—are we into five figures yet? And we still haven’t covered all the bases.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:07pm

Re: understand at least some console commands to use it on a daily basis
I don’t know why people say that like it’s a bad thing...
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:10pm

Re: by opening up an admin command prompt
You mean you can’t use Windows properly without knowing something about the command line?

NNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...!!!!
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Uriel-238 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:47pm

Side questions...
~ Has anyone figured out the format of these privacy-compromising data packages that are going back to Mother Microsoft?

~ Has anyone yet developed (or is working on) an engine that sends Big MS a bunch of false data properly formatted to help keep their big eyes entertained?

~ Would running such a program be illegal, unethical or a litigable offense?

Because I'm really rather annoyed with Microsoft and that they've become mean-spirited and disregard the rights of their end-users.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 6:53pm

Re: RE: What Windows is based upon
I seriously wouldn't say that the kernel is the most important part of the OS. IMHO, it's the applications (special sauce) that will really determine who will and can use the OS. So for example VMS was a great secure O/S, better than OS/2. Hell, Microsoft hired Dave Cutler to design NT because of VMS. The VMS operating system was designed to be a mainframe system with security in mind from the start. The kernel was rock solid and stable. It still floats around HP systems, and I learned to program assembly language on it from the DEC days.
So my suggestion, buy your kids or yourself a Steam Machine. Linux isn't the best kernel but it works as well as MS, though I'd still vote for BSD as the best right now.
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:02pm

Re:
GNU/Linux is the only way to go.

Not true. The BSDs are still out there and are arguably better in some situations. In fact, you can run Gnu userland with a BSD kernel. Debian Linux even offers that option.

I watched a talk given by an OpenBSD developer demonstrating two tiny Sokris boxes running pf firewalls. He hit the power on one of them, it failed over to the other seamlessly and not a packet was dropped while the other came back to life. Slick!
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:02pm

Re: Side questions...
Uriel, For question 1:
Lip, Sep 2nd, 2015 @ 7:04am
According to https://thehackernews.com/2015/08/windows-spying-on-you.html, you can uninstall the tracking updates in Windows 7 and 8.1 by opening up an admin command prompt and entering in the following one at a time:

wusa /uninstall /kb:3068708 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3022345 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3075249 /norestart
wusa /uninstall /kb:3080149 /norestart

Note I've removed the /quiet from the commands as there's no way to know if the previous command finished to let you know to run the next one.

[ reply to this | link to this | view in chronology ]

For 2, I didn't even bother to look at what's sent to MS, just described how to look.

For 3, I can't see how sending junk data would be illegal, but hell I'm just a hack like the rest of them. LOIC is pretty much just sending a shit load of junk data that easily dropped but considered illegal, so IANAL.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:10pm

Thanks guys.
Yeah, I figured the bootable USB external might be the way to go.

I know of a local LUG to get questions answered, and yeah, if I can get my productivity on in Linux then I'll just made that a dedicated system and worry about getting games going later. The winehq link helps.
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Kaden (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:18pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, I'm fucking sure, you condescending prat.

You can't run VSTs in Linux. This isn't something I'm making up. ProTools? Nah... that doesn't work either. ProTools hardware? No drivers. Ableton Live? Nope. There's a bodged driver for Novation Launchpads, but if Ableton won't run it's not much use, is it? The absolute best latency I've ever gotten out of the hacked together Focusrite Interface drivers is 16ms. To put that in perspective, you hear flamming at a bit over 5ms, so it's unusable.

Again, good for you for having brand loyalty... me, I just want to get shit done with a bare minimum of fucking around. Y'all can rationalize about Linux from here 'til October, but the fact remains that once you step beyond run-of-the mill office productivity and coding tasks on Linux, it shits the bed.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Android, FireOS, Chromecast, Roku, Tivo, Smart TVs you probably have a Linux device right now.
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MrTroy (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:33pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
The primary reason is that Windows 10 is a major release, not a fork. Just like Ubuntu 15 is not a fork of Ubuntu 14, but Mint IS a fork of Ubuntu.
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MrTroy (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Have you EVER installed Linux in the last 10 years?

Yes.

It is FAR, FAR, FAR easier than installing Windows.

Have you ever installed Windows in the last 10 years? This is blatantly false.
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Zem, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:44pm

Re: Re:
The best CAD for architects, Archicad, runs on both mac and pc. So does vector works.

It's only autodesk products that are trapped on windows. And since they have now gone to an overpriced subscription model I can only see their user base shrinking.
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Gwiz (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, I'm fucking sure, you condescending prat.

Wow. Just having a discussion here. No need to be an asshole. Have a nice life.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:49pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Oh, a name and logo change.
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MrTroy (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:49pm

Re: Re: It's time for me to make a Linux partition.
For my games needs, I want to be able to play the games that I already own. But thanks anyway.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 7:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Come on now, pull the other one.

Linux installs are so easy, I do it. Windows requires more to install, doesn't have most common apps installed when you are done and then there is the drivers to install stuff.
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tqk (profile), 2 Sep 2015 @ 8:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
People use it every day without even knowing what a command line is, much less needing it.

One of the hardest things for me to understand is why everyone learned to want to avoid the command line. It's a feature! You can talk directly to the OS and the machine through the CLI. Shell programming is a great way to learn programming, and a great way to automate tasks you do repetitively. Once you learn whichever commands do what you want done, stuff 'em into a shell script and schedule it as a cron job. Want better performance than bash? Use Korn or Z shell, or awk or sed, or perl, or python. Beats the crap out of basic.

Microsoft and Apple just made computing more complex and expensive and less reliable.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 9:33pm

The sad part is that Android is just as bad, or worse, as Microsoft Windows when it comes to privacy. 1st and 3rd party Android apps have complete access to your contract list, gps location, cell tower location, recent call list... the whole nine yards.

Google doesn't want to introduce permission controls which would allow end-users to block apps from accessing this information because it interferes with Google's advertising business model.

So yeah, Android is just as bad as Microsoft Windows. I hate to say it but Apple had more access controls than Android does.
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ryuugami, 2 Sep 2015 @ 10:11pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You could also try Krita.

I've only used it a few times so far, but it's supposed to be more user-friendly than GIMP, and it's interface and capabalities look quite Photoshoppy to my untrained eyes. I did spend a few hours playing with filters, of which there are hundreds.
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Anonymous Coward, 2 Sep 2015 @ 11:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
The tools of system administration are largely common across the *nix world, based on the shell and it text mangling tools. Learn those, and the differences in package managers and minor file system variations should not cause any issues for a system administrator. Much more important is a methodological approach, ability to work with large log files and diverse sources of information is much more important, along with keeping notes of what they are doing, and backing up configuration files before making changes.
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MrTroy (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 12:00am

Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
It all comes down to how they use the computer. If all they use is the browser, the only difficult aspect of Linux is the lack of computers that come with it pre-installed. The Chromebook it the ultimate response to this need.

These days, that is all that most home users need. If you get these friends on Linux and make sure they can find the browser, they're set, and you won't get calls.

I've not met a single person who owns a computer for whom this statement is true, and that includes my 80-year old mother-in-law who I set up a computer for. As well as a browser, she needed a word processor, skype and email, and later some very simple image software so she could play with photos to make paintings from.

And even if they DO only need the browser... if they're running in a restricted account so they can't trash the system if they click on the wrong thing, how do they patch their browser?
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Ben S (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 12:24am

Re:
Just wanted to thank you for that info and the link. I found one of those installed on my system. When I have a day off I'm going to looking at my Mom's computer to see which, if any, of those are installed on hers. She also has updates set to automatically install, so I'll be changing that as well.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"a huge number of people still think of Linux the way the above AC describes it"

A huge number of people are wrong and either basing their opinions on outdated information, or outright fiction.

I'm not sure of the best way to battle this, but calling people out on it is the best way i have right now...

"most people still use Windows because the bulk of non-technical software is written exclusively for MS OSs"

This is true, but it's not due to a failing of said non-MS OSes. Again, I'm unsure of the best way to deal with this, since the mindshare was essentially taken before Linux and OSX existed, but it's not a failing of those alternative systems.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:19am

Re: Re: Re: Re: I've used linux since kernel 0.98, and:
"I remember Ubuntu changing the whole X windows framework and default windows manager in a MINOR upgrade revision."

...which is bad, but totally comparable to the changes made in Windows 8. Nobody wanted Metro, and the 8.1 changes did confuse a lot of end users. Have you got any examples that don't apply equally to Microsoft, or are you going to let them pass just because?

"It is hard to explain to people, that there are HARDWARE problems that need to get solved before you should be doing certain things with software. "

...and this is a problem with Linux, how? Are we blaming software providers for chipset architectural issues now?

I know roughly what you're trying to say, but it's weak.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: CEIP
"Honestly, if I was that worried about it, I would personally use a IDS system to decode the transactions through ASICs"

If I was that worried about it, I'd use a FOSS system that came from a company without a history of screwing over the interest of its users. But, you can use your solution if you prefer, it's just not for me.

"My only goal was to explain how to decode the traffic, since as quoted: "but it's hard to be certain". "

Yes, but I approached it a level above that. Rather than try to find a way to monitor a problem, I prefer to find a solution that removes the problem.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:13am

Re: Re:
Pardon. I'm a musician, Linux (UbuntuStudio) is the only OS I use. with Audacity and Ardour, and Rosegarden. My mixer, my USB enabled Amplifier and MIDI interface all work just fine, thankyouverymuch.

It's also the the only OS (Linux Mint) I use for everything else.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:24am

Re:
Canonical sending search results to Amazon can be turned off easily, it's a single setting in the control panel under Privacy. Once that is set to Off, no search results are sent anywhere from the desktop.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:27am

Re: Re:
"Linux is great for primary network functionality. Actually accomplishing stuff besides configuring network protocols, editing text files and looking a pron between *intense coding sessions*... not occurring."

For you, maybe. People who have bothered learning how to use Linux (as you had to do at some point with Windows) accomplish plenty. I'm sorry you're too lazy and stupid to work it out, but that's not the fault of the software on your computer.

"if I can't plug in a graphics tablet, USB audio interface and midi controller and have them do what they're supposed to without hunting down 3rd party drivers and fucking with the command line to implement patches of dubious provenance, I just cannot be arsed"

So, your main problem is you're a lazy bastard, and you'll blame the OS for not having drivers pre-installed rather than you not looking around and buying compatible hardware in the first place. I mean, Wacom even have a project whose entire point is to get their hardware running as easily as possible on Linux that includes a GUI. But, let me guess - you bought a cheapo off-brand Chinese knockoff and it's now Linux's fault that you can't run it out of the box?
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Neither does any distributor of Linux.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:31am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
"it's that your fucking OS just doesn't fucking work"

Works fine for me. If an OS that double as a massive malware honeypot and spying machine works better for your purposes, have at it. Just don't assume that because a tool doesn't meet your demand, that it meets nobody's. That's either idiotic or the epitome of narcissism.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:49am

Re: Re: Re: CEIP
If you are using Windows at work it shouldn't matter to you, if Microsoft are monitoring, obviously they are monitoring the business, and not you personally, unless you spend your time doing personal stuff on your employers computer during work hours.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 2:54am

Re: Re: Re: CEIP
In the long run I couldn't care less what Microsoft do with their property (Windows OS), as I work for myself and do all my computing on a Linux OS (Linux Mint). I've run my business, including all my accounting, on Linux for years, with not a whiff of WINE.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 3:11am

Re:
No. You paid for a License to use Windows 7, you don't own it. Microsoft does, which gives them the right to make those changes. They probably also have the right to charge you for the changes, but magnanimously won't.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 3:34am

The need to install Linux is not a problem created by Linux
It is a problem created by Microsoft and the Hardware vendors.

There is no way around this problem, other than installing Linux post purchase, until hardware Manufacturers make hardware available with Linux pre installed, as is the case with Windows.

Until then anyone serious about using an OS other than Windows has three choices.

1. Buy a Mac

2. Install Linux post purchase to replace Windows

3. Locate a boutique hardware vendor that builds Hardware with Linux pre installed. There are quite a few of these, and all it takes is an internet search. Build quality is usually very good, and the hardware is guaranteed to work well with Linux.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 3:36am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Which means that will be a very difficult problem to fix (unless I'm wrong and it really isn't a problem at all).

The variety of desktops is not a problem, as different people have different preferences. Also, if people do not really know what they are doing, but are simply following instructions, does it make any difference if the solution describes use of a GUI, or the command line?
The GUI may look easier to use, but it often creates a false confidence, and allows people to break their system by random clicking on options.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 4:14am

Re: The need to install Linux is not a problem created by Linux
"until hardware Manufacturers make hardware available with Linux pre installed, as is the case with Windows."

A few of them do this, for example Dell offer a laptop targeted at developers with Linux pre-installed. However, the choice is limited and it's not a mainstream enough product for them to sell huge quantities of units.

Which is, of course, the problem - it's a kind of catch 22 situation. Linux won't be a standard option on most machines until they shift lots of units, and they won't shift those units until a Linux purchaser has the same choice as a Windows machine. Most people will still hold their nose and buy the Windows model and install Linux over it. So, lots of people are buying Windows machines with no intention of running Windows, but the sales figures make it look like they are, so their actual needs aren't catered to.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, a few hardware vendors tried offering Linux (or machines with no OS installed) as standard at one point, but stopped when Microsoft had a tantrum and threatened to remove bulk discounts from those OEMs.
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ottermaton (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 4:30am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Have you ever installed Windows in the last 10 years?

Yep. A VERY big part of what I do for a living is install Windows. In my personal life, I ONLY install Linux. So, yea, I am what you what call an expert on installing both OSs.

Linux is FAR easier to install than Windows.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 5:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Not to mention that after installing a vanilla copy of Windows, you're still likely to need to search for drivers, etc. to get hardware working correctly. You may get lucky and get a functional machine with generic drivers, but usually you need to install more advanced drivers to get proper functionality. It's improved, but I lose count of the number of times I've had to go to a different machine and download a chipset, NIC or wifi driver to be able to access the internet and get everything else running.

Many people forget this because they only use the pre-installed version that came with those drivers. Just another example of people blaming Linux for something that's actually universal. The only desktop OS that's guaranteed to have everything out of the box is OSX, and that's only because Apple make the hardware as well as the software.

On top of that, I like to remind people that most distros will install all the apps you need as well as the underlying OS. Even if installing Windows is easier for someone, it's still going to be more time consuming to be installing your apps individually. Then, you've usually got a huge number of updates to install afterwards, usually requiring several restarts, whereas Linux does this during the install process (at least with 7 and before, I stopped working extensively with desktops before 8 was released) I can be using LibreOffice or GIMP or browsing the web before a Windows user has installed the latest service packs.
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ottermaton (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 5:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
As well as a browser, she needed a word processor

LibreOffice Write. AbiWord. Kword. Others ...

skype

Runs on Linux.

and email

Where to even begin? Here's one guy's list with 128 options

and later some very simple image software so she could play with photos to make paintings from.

GIMP. Inkscape. Sketch. Others ...

You obviously don't know much about Linux. And that's OK. But maybe you should just not speak about things you don't understand.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 5:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
"As well as a browser, she needed a word processor, skype and email, and later some very simple image software so she could play with photos to make paintings from."

All of which are available on Linux, and on most desktop distros would take less effort to install than the Windows version would.

"if they're running in a restricted account so they can't trash the system if they click on the wrong thing, how do they patch their browser?"

Same way as you do in Windows or OSX - the system will ask for the root (admin) password if you try accessing something that requires permissions that your user account doesn't have. If you trust them so little that you won't even let them have the root password, you can set updates to install automatically, or set permissions so that the user can update the browser without affecting anything else.

Perhaps try educating yourself before criticising people who have actually used Linux for detailing their experiences.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 6:32am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
So when people talk about patching something in Linux it magically doesn't apply to Android?

When someone says "I need to apply some patches on my Linux machine" that is not a reference to a phone. When someone asks "how do I do X in Linux" they are not asking about how to do it on Android.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 6:39am

Re: Re:
In fact, you can run Gnu userland with a BSD kernel. Debian Linux even offers that option.

If it's a BSD kernel, it isn't Linux, is it? Or do you mean Debian Linux as an organization?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 6:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Maybe I don't turn the machine on very often. Say twice a year at tax time.

With the Home editions of windows 10, doing that could be painful, as it will insist on installing outstanding updates.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 6:52am

Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Google has a web-based solution for every single task you have listed and they aren't the only ones. For a web-based Skype alternative I greatly prefer appear.in, It doesn't require any software installation just an html5 capable browser. It also has no requirement to have an account to use it. I frequently have to conference with people and you never know what software they may or may not have, or what services they have accounts on. This web-based Skype alternative solves these limitations that Skype has.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Oh, forgot to mention rollapp.com has a significant number of popular Linux applications including Libre Office and GIMP delivered to you through a web-browser.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:09am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
One of the hardest things for me to understand is why everyone learned to want to avoid the command line.

It requires memorizing commands, which GUIs don't. I think most people are also not that good at typing, so a command line might actually be slower. For many tasks it also requires either typing or pasting in stuff you don't understand, or learning about the operating system at a level of detail most users have no interest in. There could be other reasons too.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:11am

Re:
1st and 3rd party Android apps have complete access to your contract list, gps location, cell tower location, recent call list... the whole nine yards.

3rd party apps have to ask for that permission before they can be installed (unless you're sideloading and then it's presumed you know what you're doing).

Google doesn't want to introduce permission controls which would allow end-users to block apps from accessing this information because it interferes with Google's advertising business model.

I think they're working on that for a future release. Not sure if it's 6 or not.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:15am

Re: Re: Re: It's time for me to make a Linux partition.
Sometimes we just move forward.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:20am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
So you are offended by the existence of an additional usable method of interaction.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Also, if people do not really know what they are doing, but are simply following instructions, does it make any difference if the solution describes use of a GUI, or the command line?

I think the difference is that with a GUI you might gain some understanding of what you're doing as you do it. That's not true with pasting some Greek into Bash, and most moms are not going to take the time to learn what each part of that command they used actually means.

The GUI may look easier to use, but it often creates a false confidence, and allows people to break their system by random clicking on options.

What if it's not false? There is always a chance people will break their systems of course. But I think that's better than making it so uncomfortable to make changes to the system that they try to avoid doing it.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:33am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Since you seem to be either familiar with Linux from a dedicated device or hardcore type distro or one from 10+ years ago, it may come as a shock but the command line use in a good modern desktop Linux system is optional. So you either don't know what you are on about or you are being dishonest. Stop trying to spread your Microsoft FUD.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:35am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
GUIs create the appearance that people can do things without having to learn about the software, or the task that they are trying to undertakes, but rapidly become frustrating when people do not at least understand the basics of how to go about solving their problems.
They can also lead to people thinking this is easy, and not taking the care to check things that they should, and then trying to blame the software because they left a major cost out of the spreadsheet they built, or stopped or started the sum one row early; resulting in them making a loss, rather than a profit.
When it comes to copying solutions found online, or via other sources, it does not really matter whether the describe a command line solution or a GUI solution if the person does not understand what they are doing, and if anything the command line solutions may be better if the causes people to stop and check before using it.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"It requires memorizing commands, which GUIs don't."

Only if you need to remember the solution. If it's a one-off thing, you're just copying and pasting information that you're not trying to remember. Same for most users trying to navigate a GUI - people will just blindly follow the directions, not think about what every detail means. If it's not a one-off thing, why would you not be bookmarking the page rather trying to remember it verbatim?

There's reasons to be critical of dependence on command lines in help files, but this particular line is weak. I'd liken it to having to edit the registry for the average user - you often don't understand what you're changing and might be justifiably scared of doing the wrong thing. You'll certainly not memorise every detail, and you will refer to documentation every time you make a change. But, I've never heard "I might need to edit the registry occasionally" as a reason not to use Windows.

It's also worth noting that some solutions require command line input on all the major OSes. It tends to be referred to more rarely in Windows because their users have been trained to avoid it, but there's definitely times where you either have to go there or it's much easier than trying to find where they put an option in their latest interface juggle.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:51am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
I used to do tech support for a web hosting company. We were about 85% Linux and 15% Windows. When calls came through for dedicated hosting (where people rent an entire server rather than space on a shared system), the biggest headaches were always Windows users. They assumed they could administer a server because it looked like their desktop, then tried demanding free tuition when they realised they didn't have a clue about IIS.

"When it comes to copying solutions found online, or via other sources, it does not really matter whether the describe a command line solution or a GUI solution if the person does not understand what they are doing"

QFT
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"I think the difference is that with a GUI you might gain some understanding of what you're doing as you do it. "

Nice theory. But, I still have to explain some basic features in Windows 7 to my Mum every time she needs something fixed, even though they've barely changed since Windows 98. People may generally get the idea that, say, they should look in the control panel if they need to find a type of option, but in my experience most end users don't gain a huge amount of knowledge if they're not already interested enough to have learned much of it on their own.

"What if it's not false?"

If they only feel like they know what they're doing because they're following instructions written by someone else, it is false.

"But I think that's better than making it so uncomfortable to make changes to the system that they try to avoid doing it."

Good thing the shell is not designed for that purpose, then. It's purely functional, and most Linux users turn to it first because it's normally much quicker and easier than a GUI.

GUIs may be more comfortable for the type of user who was trained to think like Microsoft's UI designers want them to think, but it's not a failing when people design software in a way not approved by Microsoft.

A lot of work has been done to get many different GUI alternatives for most major requirements, but if you're trying to get free support from forums you'll get an answer that the volunteer answering your question knows - and that will likely mean the shell.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
To be fair, he is talking about trying to get help with technical problems on forums, not claiming that it's required in daily normal use. So, he is correct that most experienced users helping you in those venues will prefer the shell to the GUI, but it's not a failing of Linux as much as it is people with different levels of understanding not communicating on the same level.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
HIPPA is not something the average person deals with.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:54am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
To be fair, he is talking about trying to get help with technical problems on forums, not claiming that it's required in daily normal use.

Exactly so, though it's also true that I haven't been using Linux very much recently and I'm only describing my experience. I might be an outlier. I also want to be clear that Linux is awesome and my comments are an expression of concern about its future, not a condemnation. I hope it really takes off big, but we're still waiting for The Year of the Linux Desktop. Then again maybe we're waiting for the wrong thing, and it will actually be a steady slow uptick in adoption. That would be fine too.
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jupiterkansas (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: The need to install Linux is not a problem created by Linux
Wouldn't Microsoft removing bulk discounts just increase Linux distribution?
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 8:57am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
in my experience most end users don't gain a huge amount of knowledge if they're not already interested enough to have learned much of it on their own.

Yeah that could be.

If they only feel like they know what they're doing because they're following instructions written by someone else, it is false.

And if they paid attention and thought about what they were doing, it might not be.

Good thing the shell is not designed for that purpose, then.

What purpose, making changes to the system? If you're suggesting it should be used for daily tasks, that's even worse. Hardly anyone wants to do that.

most Linux users turn to it first because it's normally much quicker and easier than a GUI.

If you're a good typist and already know how to use it, yes.

it's not a failing when people design software in a way not approved by Microsoft.

Of course not, it's perfectly fine. I'm just pondering Linux's potential for broad adoption.

A lot of work has been done to get many different GUI alternatives for most major requirements, but if you're trying to get free support from forums you'll get an answer that the volunteer answering your question knows - and that will likely mean the shell.

Yeah, that was my point. :-)
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:04am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
it does not really matter whether the describe a command line solution or a GUI solution if the person does not understand what they are doing, and if anything the command line solutions may be better if the causes people to stop and check before using it.

I don't understand that last part. A novice user is more likely to research a shell command they find online than to take the time to understand GUI instructions?
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:06am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Only if you need to remember the solution.

Right, most of the stuff we do with computers, we do often. It's easier to remember where to go in a GUI than to remember what to type in a shell, and you don't have to remember the whole process with a GUI, because each step will give you visual clues about the next step. Many people would prefer not needing to either remember a command or look it up every time.

And remember the question I was answering is "why do some people dislike the command line?"
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:18am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"...The Year of the Linux Desktop. Then again maybe we're waiting for the wrong thing, and it will actually be a steady slow uptick in adoption. That would be fine too."

The comments on this and other stories and general web browsing strongly indicate a significant and continually growing Linux userbase, but all in one year was always a fantasy. People just don't all go and simultaneously replace what they use like that. I know a few people who still have VHS decks.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:21am

"You don't own it"
But we did pay for a product to work according to certain terms, and if they change those terms after the fact (or even, as is common practice, let people buy the product without informing them in advance of critical details) that crosses the line into unethical.

(It could even be argued that the long-winded and xenolexiconic contracts -- which are willfully written to discourage actually reading them -- are such that they cannot adequately be digested by a typical end user and therefore cannot be reasonably enforced.)

Also, if they were to charge for updates, then there would be an implied expectation that the initial product was perfect and free of bugs, and the bar before security exploits, non-functionality and interface problems were litigable would be much lower. As it is, the free updates and Microsoft's diligence with security updates elevates that bar.

Odious contracts without parity may be the norm right now in the tech industries (and extending to other appliances), but they're tolerated only due to (legal) necessity, not because this is, or has ever been acknowledged as an acceptable way of doing business, and it leads to Microsoft's customer base being driven to act out of necessity, or even desperation to counter Microsoft's encroachments on rights.

This is why countermeasures to the DRM of Microsoft Windows (e.g. Windows Loader) has been written by engineers, and not by black-hats. Businesses whose inconveniences by conforming to MS DRM policies are enumerated in profits lost are driven monetarily to circumvent them. Doing so may be illegal in the US, but it's not in Europe, and once the European patch comes to the US it's a common practice much like driving above the speed limit.

If the US had a functional justice system (which it does not, with countless examples to that effect) the situation of necessity would mean that any hacks to circumvent intrinsic malware and privacy breaches would be defensible and justified, much the way that the French resistance sought to disrupt German logistics during WWII, or hostages in a bank heist are justified to take action against their captors if they can succeed in doing so.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
Many beginners think that the shell is a scary and dangerous place, but that a GUI is simple and safe. Therefore they are more likely to check other sources before using the shell, but blindly follow GUI instructions blindly.

Its like may years ago someone sold the little wonder fuse blower, which was shorting switch in a plug. It came with the simple instructions:
"To blow fuse, plug in and press the button"
These instructions were so simple that it left many people in the dark, because it worked as described, and some people did not stop to think what would happen when the blew the fuse.
If that had been a simple kit where people had to assemble the switch to the plug top, and wire in in, which are simple operations, very few would have gone on to test it because wiring a plug is a scary operation to many people.
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Monday (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 9:51am

Thanks for the post...
This was / is an extremely great post. I had all these updates installed, and I don't want any of my business anywhere. Thanks again. They're gone, and KIS is now on the prowl for those two other thingies...

:)
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Uriel-238 (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:07am

I don't get it. Why would someone want to deliberately blow a fuse?
Doesn't that render the fuse useless for its function?
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:37am

Re: Re: 'good reviews'?!?!? Really!?!?!
As a former Ubuntu (Unity) user, I am regularly blown away at how fast Mint Mate is.

I wasn't even aware that I was used to waiting a couple seconds for a program to load until I no longer needed to.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:46am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
The comments on this and other stories and general web browsing strongly indicate a significant and continually growing Linux userbase

Good! And I may join them...

People just don't all go and simultaneously replace what they use like that.

I would say they might, but so many people hated Vista with such a passion and that didn't do it, so yeah probably not going to be a massive and sudden adoption even if people hate Windows 10.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:51am

Re: "You don't own it"
It could even be argued that the long-winded and xenolexiconic contracts --

Upvoted just for that word.

Also, if they were to charge for updates, then there would be an implied expectation that the initial product was perfect and free of bugs

Where do you get that idea? There is no commercial software free of bugs*, and I don't think anyone paying for updates expects it to be perfect. I don't think you would get anywhere at all suing a company just for bugs unless you could prove gross negligence that caused harm.

* arguably none at all, but I read something about NASA's strategy for zero-defect software. The stuff with meters and inches was written by a contractor IIRC.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:55am

Re: I don't get it. Why would someone want to deliberately blow a fuse?
Doesn't that render the fuse useless for its function?

The only thing I can think of is to test the fuse to make sure it blows at the right amperage (I think it's amps that does it). Of course that fuse is ruined but test a few and you can assume the rest of the batch are OK too.

Therefore they are more likely to check other sources before using the shell, but blindly follow GUI instructions blindly.

I do not buy that someone willing to blindly follow GUI instructions without understanding them would go to the trouble of getting a second opinion on a shell command, but OK.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 11:42am

Imperial vs. Metric in NASA
I had assumed that the NASA inches vs. centimeters thing was a problem caused by a conversion error (which happens sometimes, and is why you want to standardize units of measurement)

By free of bugs, I didn't mean perfectly bug free, rather that updates would be a rare thing, rather than the almost-every-tuesday update schedule that Windows has had since XP. So, fewer bugs by orders of magnitude than the present situation.

There was a similar situation with console games, as they changed from the play-from-CD format a la PS1 to the install-from-CD / play-from-HD format a la PS3. The old format required a longer playtesting run before a game went gold because bugs were forever, and bugs that could be exploited in-game would become part of that game's culture.

Now, they can release and patch later, and they do. Or as the case is sometimes, if the the game flops on the shelves, they just stop patching bugs, and the fans just suffer the buggy bits. Aliens: Colonial Marines comes to mind.

We've seen similar things with early smart-phones that didn't have easy update vectors (e.g. required a firmware update) in that a buggy interface would tank the reviews. Less so, now, given that bugs are fixed after release.
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tqk (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re: Re:
Or do you mean Debian Linux as an organization?

Yup. I've never tried it and can't verify it's there yet, but wiki.debian.org has a page on it (last time I looked).
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 12:53pm

Re: Re: I don't get it. Why would someone want to deliberately blow a fuse?
What I was pointing out is give a person instructions that have a familiar feel, they are likely to follow them without stopping to think about what they are being told to do. Take them into an unfamiliar environment, like put the device together before using it, and they become more cautious about what they are doing. The little wonder fuse blower told them to plug it in and switch it on, which is a familiar enough sequence of actions, while adding the steps involved in assembling the device, which although equally simple, are not something that they are familiar with, which gives them pause for thought, and often check that a bit more of what they are being told.
I think the problem was that people saw to make this device function, plug in and switch on, and while they were not sure what it does, they were familiar with how to do it how to make it do it, and that won out. Get them to wire a switch across the pins of a plug, and they are likely to become suspicious of the instruction, and many people will investigate what they are being told and quickly realise it is not a good idea.
To cast this into computer terms, being told select system tools->format and then tick c: and click OK, seems familiar enough, that may people would not be suspicious about what they are being told to do, and often automatically confirm the action. Ask them to open a terminal and type format c: and many would stop to ask what does format do, and are much more likely to read the message that appears to confirm the action, because the terminal is a scary place compared to the safety of the GUI.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:07pm

Re: Imperial vs. Metric in NASA
I had assumed that the NASA inches vs. centimeters thing was a problem caused by a conversion error (which happens sometimes, and is why you want to standardize units of measurement)

I think more of a failure to convert error, but yeah. However I don't think that code was actually written by NASA.
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nasch (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:09pm

Re: Re: Re: I don't get it. Why would someone want to deliberately blow a fuse?
Ask them to open a terminal and type format c: and many would stop to ask what does format do

That's the part I'm just not convinced about. I think many many people would unquestioningly type exactly that if they found some instructions that purported to solve whatever problem they were having.
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tqk (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:36pm

Re: Re: Re: The need to install Linux is not a problem created by Linux
Wouldn't Microsoft removing bulk discounts just increase Linux distribution?

For that vendor yes. The downside is they'll lose all Windows sales to their competitor across the street who's getting the Windows discount. When most of your sales are for Windows, that's going to hurt your bottom line a lot.

It'd be smarter for that vendor to sell bare machines to Linux users, not paying the "Windows tax." MS won't allow that either. How about a refund for the Windows that a Linux user won't use? Nope.

I just buy second hand and wipe Windows installing Linux. It's very satisfying to answer that, "Are you sure you want to delete this partition?"
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tqk (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
What purpose, making changes to the system? If you're suggesting it should be used for daily tasks, that's even worse. Hardly anyone wants to do that.

Call me hardly anyone. There's a reason why traditional *nix systems and software were configured by editing text files (as opposed to regedit massaging binary config files). It's the same reason why every *nix box in existence came with some form of vi editor.

Unfortunately, we're now heading into systemd-land, and I'll just bail out now, thanks. :-P
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: I don't get it. Why would someone want to deliberately blow a fuse?
I had a client back in the day that had a DOS manual that listed ALL commands in alphabetical order. It had a description and a usage examples for each command. She started at the beginning of the book and worked through in alphabetical order. She refused to read, but typed each example to see what happened. It was really fun around the F section of the book. She even did a low-level format of the hard drive. (Not an easy repair)
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tqk (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 1:55pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
And remember the question I was answering is "why do some people dislike the command line?"

The simplest answer to that is they never bothered to learn to use it.

If you've used a command before, it's stored in shell history. If you have no idea what command you need, there's "apropos blah" and "man -k blah". For long commands that you type often, you stuff that whole command in an alias. There are *so* many slick, quick tools to do this stuff at a command line, it's ridiculous.

But if they never learned how, they're oblivious to all of it. GUI's the only way to them.
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Anonymous Coward, 3 Sep 2015 @ 4:07pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've used linux since kernel 0.98, and:
"Are we blaming software providers for chipset architectural issues now?"

Yes. Remember using physical keys to secure computers? Instead of using that model, we got UEFI. Which was a architectural decision made by hardware vendors that accomplished nothing except raising barrier to entry for everyone BUT Microsoft.

Wouldn't it have been easier to put a jumper on the hard disk and the motherboard to physically lock the boot sector and the BIOS? Consider that then look at UEFI. You'll likely draw the same conclusion. UEFI was a straight up street mugging.

So yes, current hardware architecture decisions appear as if they are being made with the intention of maintaining the consumer market in a broken insecure state.

Why? When the hardware is secure, the leverage provided by the OS will dilute. OS specific security updates will be less important. Which means alternative consumer OS options will gain market share.

I imagine the "walled garden" aka "man in the middle attack", is an attempt to get ahead of this. If they can't own the whole install base, they will break the Internet instead. Essentially inserting themselves in a position to chill free speech in the same manner that certain carriers have been trying to do. (note that the FCC NN regs, don't apply in this case, since the capacity is managed on the back end)

This isn't just about money. If you paid attention to Bush v. Gore, Diebold, and the conveniently dropped Microsoft Anti Trust case, you might consider that there are ramifications of the "walled garden" aka "MIM attack" that present a threat to free speech, free trade, and constitutional governance in general.

You have to wonder when the DOJ and the various states attorneys will notice. Probably when they change the flag on the building. Your right. Probably not even then.
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MrTroy (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 6:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Yes, thank you to everyone who pointed out that Linux has the named applications, and completely failed to note that I was responding to the comment that "These days, [the browser] is all that most home users need."

You obviously don't know much about Linux. And that's OK. But maybe you should just not speak about things you don't understand.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150715/11374931651/judge-kozinski-theres-very-little- justice-our-so-called-justice-system.shtml#c917

"For me? I use Windows at home, Linux at work. I've tried installing Linux occasionally at home, but it just doesn't work for me. I know how to use and maintain a Windows system, but I only know how to use a Linux system, so for me Windows is actually the more secure route. YMMV."

Emphasis on the YMMV. I much prefer developing in Linux than Windows, but I'm sure as heck not going to be the guy administering the system. And if I'm not comfortable administering *my own* system, I'm not going to recommend it to anyone in my family. Except my cousin, who *is* comfortable in Linux (and is also a programmer).
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MrTroy (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 7:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
All of which are available on Linux, and on most desktop distros would take less effort to install than the Windows version would.

I completely agree that they are all available on Linux, and I accept the proposition that you would find them easier to install on Linux than on Windows.

Perhaps try educating yourself before criticising people who have actually used Linux for detailing their experiences.

Thank you for the judgement, everyone. I *use* Linux on a nearly daily basis, and am comfortable compiling from source to try third party libraries or tools. I have never had any success administering a Linux system, either at home or work, I find the apt-get system completely opaque (in that it is trivial to install something you know about, and impossible to discover what to install if you don't) and yum just marginally better.

If I were to spend the next five years (one year? two years?) using nothing but Linux cold-turkey style, I'm sure I'd pick up everything I need and never look back. So far, I'd rather use computers that just work (for me, and my family), and spend the extra time with my family, or doing things that I actually enjoy.

YMMV.
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tracyanne (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 10:18pm

Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
" but I don't expect the Linux community to make that OS unless they change their culture of only making programs for other programmers first."

Based on that logic Microsoft should stop making Visual Studio... you do realise this is a program written by programmers for programmers, and Steve Balmer is famous for putting programmers first.

Second, please refer to my earlier comment in this thread. Unless you consider Hydrogen, the programmable Drum Machine, a program written for programmers, simply because as a Musician I have to program the drum tracks, using a graphical piano roll style interface, I don't see where any of the software I use was written for programmers.

Nor, for that matter do I see how my accounting software, my Office software, my Photo editing software, my graphics software, my media player software, my Internet Browser, my twitter frontend, my Open Source Games (as seperate from my proprietary games) are in any way developed specifically for programmers... although I'm sure many of them are also used by programmers.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 11:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"we're still waiting for The Year of the Linux Desktop... it will actually be a steady slow uptick in adoption"

Exactly, and quite frankly that is what's happening. It's been "the year of the Linux desktop" every year since desktop-focussed distros reached maturity. Millions of people use Linux as their primary desktop OS. It's just not reached any kind of mainstream critical mass.

While there's still people relating experiences with Linux a decade ago as if they were still accurate, or citing things they have to do occasionally as reasons not to use it at all, it's doubtful it ever will. Increasing support from the likes of GoG and Steam to bring familiar games across, and continued improvements in WINE will bring other users.

But, the main problem is peoples' dependence on brand names and familiarity - it doesn't matter how good LibreOffice becomes, for example, many people won't use it because it's not Microsoft Office, even if it fit their needs perfectly.
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PaulT (profile), 3 Sep 2015 @ 11:48pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"What purpose, making changes to the system?"

No, the purpose you stated:

"making it so uncomfortable to make changes to the system that they try to avoid doing it"

It's designed to make changes to the system as quick and easy as possible, a competent admin can make changes far more quickly and efficiently that would be possible in a GUI. If the trade-off is that it makes complete beginners a little uncomfortable because it's not the way Windows does things, well you're not going to get much sympathy.

"If you're a good typist and already know how to use it, yes."

There's many shortcuts (such as tab autocomplete), meaning that you don't have to be a good typist. Plus, people who know how to use it? Yes... those are the people you're asking for help in these situations!

"Of course not, it's perfectly fine. I'm just pondering Linux's potential for broad adoption."

It already has broad adoption. It's just not often a product you'll see on a shelf in Wal Mart, and it has 2 larger competitors in the desktop space (only one of the spaces in which it is available).
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PaulT (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 12:15am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
"It's easier to remember where to go in a GUI than to remember what to type in a shell"

I disagree, as the shell not only has excellent help features if you remember part of the command, but also allows you to create a script for future use that will allow you to access a list of command with any degree of complexity via a name and location you choose yourself. Whereas, GUIs often cause problems because they can be inconsistent, Microsoft regularly moves things around between releases (even before Metro), and they're not always stored in logical locations so can easily be forgotten.

Now, I'll accept that a user who has only ever used a GUI will find a shell more daunting and confusing, but that's a matter of training. People also get lost trying to configure OSX if they've never had to much in the past. They also have to drop to a command prompt on certain occasions (as do Windows users), but I never see it cited as a reason not to use those OSes. It's perfectly possible to use and administer your Linux system without seeing a command prompt, but when you're asking for help, the experienced user you're talking to will give you the easiest and quickest solution - which my be in the shell.

I understand what you're trying to get at, but these argument basically boil down to "Linux doesn't act like Windows" and "it's easier for experienced users than it is for newbies". Which is kind of the point...
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Ta_ahlikitah (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 12:23am

Re: You are all right and wrong.
This little 60+ old woman, who started using computers about 12 years ago and has yet to phone someone to come fix her machine, is reading this column because she fully intends to disable this stuff but just might try out linux on her old machine and then switch over the new one if it works for her.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 1:49am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Almost all of the desktop orientated distribution come with at least one, and sometimes two graphical package/software managers installed, and those make finding software, and keeping the system up to date very easy.
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PaulT (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 3:10am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
"I *use* Linux on a nearly daily basis"

Yet, your comments indicated that you didn't realise that common applications and security configuration / automation options were available.

Perhaps we're not understanding what you said, but nothing I'm reading jibes with the experiences of someone who's used a modern distro for any length of time.

"I find the apt-get system completely opaque"

Does that include GUI-based package managers such as Synaptic or the Ubuntu software manager interface? Because I have no problem typing in a program I'm looking for in either of those interfaces, and I certainly have no problem double clicking on the .deb package I just downloaded if it's not something listed there. If I have to drop to the shell for whatever reason, there's nothing particularly hard about typing "apt-get install " or "yum install ", and if you have to Google to download it or find out what the package is called, chances are that you needed to Google and download the .exe or .dmg on another system anyway.

What exactly are you using?

"I *use* Linux on a nearly daily basis, and am comfortable compiling from source to try third party libraries or tools"

"If I were to spend the next five years (one year? two years?) using nothing but Linux cold-turkey style, I'm sure I'd pick up everything I need and never look back"

Wait... so you use Linux daily, to the point where you compile from source (something very rarely required nowadays for normal desktop use), yet apt-get confuses you and you think you'd need years of exclusive usage to understand it? You'll excuse me if this doesn't sound right.

If you're purely talking from the perspective of someone who's trying to set it up themselves with no clue of what they're doing, well there's a learning curve no matter which system you try using.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 7:14am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Yes, thank you to everyone who pointed out that Linux has the named applications, and completely failed to note that I was responding to the comment that "These days, [the browser] is all that most home users need."

Web solutions were provided as well as off line ones You can accomplish ever single task you listed exclusively via web as was pointed out. In addition offline tools were also suggested. Options are goooood.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 7:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Almost all of the desktop orientated distribution come with at least one, and sometimes two graphical package/software managers installed, and those make finding software, and keeping the system up to date very easy.

Yes, how annoying is it every time you see a Windows computer and there is a balloon or popup from Java, Acrobat Reader or some other application and/or Windows saying it needs an update.

In modern Linux Distros it's so pleasant, there is one update icon. All it does is change when you have ANY updates available. So you click the icon, see the list of Linux System AND/OR Application updates (change checkboxes if you want) Click Install and enter your password when asked. That's it your operating system and all programs updates begin downloading and installing.

The Windows update system is so fragmented and annoying by comparison and so much more work to do many individual updates.
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Not an Electronic Rodent (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 8:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
and they're not always stored in logical locations so can easily be forgotten.
Oh my, yes. For example, even after "years of practice" I still maintain that the M$ office layout since 2007 is way less usable than those before it. (Caveat: I haven't tried the latest abortion yet).

All too often, even in Windows, the command line is actually the easiest and certainly quickest way to do a task, but many seem too enamoured of the mindless-pointy-clickyness of it all to bother to find out how. Hell, the number of people who work on computers who don't even bother with keyboard shortcuts for copy-pasta etc is scary enough!
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 8:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
None of this waiting for the machine to carry out the actual upgrades during a prolonged reboot sequence either. You may occasionally get a prompt to inform you that a reboot, or logout and login is required for the upgrade to take effect, but you can do those at your convenience.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 10:21am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Ever have Windows tell you it did an update and is NOW going to reboot so you click wait, then hurry but keep being harassed every few minutes by the message. The only thing worse is when you are not able to click wait and boom it just reboots.

The biggest joys of using Linux come from the refreshing change that the operation is user centric.
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Steve (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 1:44pm

Really Techdirt? You should be better than this
C'mon, I expect this kind of sensationalist reporting from mainstream media, written by those who don't even bother to understand what they are actually writing about. Techdirt can do better.

The Customer Experience Improvement Program has been around a long time (Since WinXP, if memory serves). It's not some evil privacy invading spyware, it's there to capture telemetry about Windows which gets sent back to MS so they can improve the product. Things like details about when and why an application crashed, or a driver that fails, or what percentage of users actually access specific features of windows, etc. It's not sending back your address book, or your email from Aunt Sue, or (heaven forbid!) your browser history.

These patches are just adding that telemetry monitoring to bits of windows that couldn't be monitored before. Lots of things have been added or changed in Win7 since it came out, and MS has certainly come up with new ways to analyze CEIP data in the interim. If a few additional data points about how my OS is performing will help them to develop a patch that makes things respond faster for me in the future, I'm all for it.

More importantly, while I'm all for it, you don't have to. CEIP is optional. You don't have to participate. Windows ASKS whether you want to participate, and you have to say yes or no. If you choose not to participate, this isn't an issue*.

On top of that, these aren't mandatory patches for win7/8. (Windows 7 and 8 don't even have mandatory patching like win10 does...) They aren't listed as critical updates, but rather as Recommended or Optional updates. If you don't want your system to get the update to collect these additional telemetry points, simply don't install the patches. Even when automatic updates are enabled, updates classified as "Recommended" aren't installed automatically unless you check the box to install Recommended updates along with the critical updates. Updates classified as "Optional" don't even get lumped in then, they will only be installed if you explicitly check the box for that update and click install.

Seriously, this is a non-issue, made into a big deal by people who can't be bothered to read the descriptions of these updates. I'm disappointed that Techdirt apparently falls into that category as well.

-----------
* Yes, I know that there have been reports of Windows 10 still sending back a minimal amount of "probably harmless" data to Microsoft even with all settings configured for privacy. The data in that case wasn't the same kind of thing that these updates apply to, and I've seen no indication that these updates cause Windows 7/8.1 to send additional data to MS when CEIP is disabled.
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Anonymous Coward, 4 Sep 2015 @ 2:02pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Ever have Windows tell you it did an update and is NOW going to reboot.....

Last time that happened to me, it was followed by upgrade failed, restoring previous state, followed by another long wait while it restored and rebooted and completed the restore. That was about a 7 years ago, and was the last time I let a machine running windows go online, and relied on Linux for all online activities, as it was dual booting Fedora at the time.
That machine is now running PCLinuxOS, and has been for about 5 years, and no significant issues as the updates have rolled in.
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Hi, Steve, 4 Sep 2015 @ 4:31pm

Re: Really Techdirt? You should be better than this
Balmer?
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GEMont, 4 Sep 2015 @ 5:51pm

MS's new Self Spying Computer System - the Sellfee.
Its just another Time Game.

Micrsloth knows that it will take months, maybe years before anything will be legally accomplished to stop them from stealing everything that's not nailed down from all its users, and of course, when that day comes, they will graciously stop all the spying, with that particular system - which will likely not still be in popular use by then, having been replaced by Win11, Win12, and Windows14, all of which use similar methods to steal everything a user does.

In the meantime, they can assist the Federal Spy Agencies, at so many millions of tax payer's dollars per terra-byte of user data, and both they and the NSA will be happy campers.

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Uriel-238 (profile), 4 Sep 2015 @ 8:20pm

It sounds like you weren't around for the first exciting episode.
Steve, I don't think it really matters how allegedly harmless the data is that is being sent from the Windows 7/8 updates, What matters is what happened not too long ago.

Specifically everyone had a good read of the Windows 10 terms of service, which outlined a few important tidbits.

~ Yes, Win10 will be gathering data and sending it off to MS.

~ That data would include directory trees, keytracking, surfing habits, shopping habits etc. etc. etc.

~ Yes, they are going to share all of it with whatever commercial affiliates they wanted.

~ Yes, they are going to share all of it with whatever governments they wanted.

~ If they see something suspicious, you betcha they're going to send it to the police.

~ If they think you're pirating, you betcha they're going to sue you all the way to Mars.

~ If you design anything, create anything, manage your business books, write anything or whatever, and MS wants a copy for any reason, they get it. Even if it means you're breaking confidence agreements, NDSes, violating security clearance, or MS gets to patent your design before you do.

Essentially, Microsoft's TOS pretty much says they reserve the right to screw the end user any way that an MS tech might want. Even if for the lulz.

Even if this was written to only be used good faith as a protective legal stopgap, it means that ultimately it will be abused, and that Microsoft is, to us end-users, a hostile entity now.

So, no, we have every reason to make sure they don't get one bit of data from us, even that sent in good faith.
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would;d, 4 Sep 2015 @ 10:06pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: People are switching to Mac too not just Linux
would;d
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Good Luck, 5 Sep 2015 @ 3:17am

Re: Re: uninstall MS malware updates
Really now, will it end here?

Enjoy your new game of wack-a-mole.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2015 @ 7:01am

Re: Really Techdirt? You should be better than this
"Seriously, this is a non-issue, made into a big deal by people who can't be bothered to read the descriptions of these updates"

Have you actually counted the number of updates you receive? Have you actually READ those descriptions? Most of them just say: "Security Update for -foo-", and very little else.

Have you diffed the registry after these updates? Have you ever turned off something that was a known security problem, and then checked if one of these "Security Updates" turned those security holes BACK ON?

Those descriptions your talking about, aren't accurate, or detailed. So how can there be informed consent? Further, many of the "updates" are actually installations of new features, and have nothing whatsoever to do with security or stability.

You can't do fleet management style administration on systems that are integral to peoples civil rights, and expect that YOUR policy is the RIGHT policy. This stuff effects trade, and speech, and those rights are reserved to the people, not the sovereign state of Microsoft.

And Yes, the auto update system, DOES override administrative decisions made by local administrators. Those changes effect speech, trade, and information security, and not always in a good way.

Really you could just take a street survey. Ask people: "has Microsoft ever installed software on your computer that you didn't want, unexpectedly, and/or without your consent?"

The number of "yes" answers to that question would more than tell the tail.
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John Fenderson (profile), 5 Sep 2015 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"If a home LAN, I presume you allow the machines to get updates"

No, I don't.
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Anonymous Coward, 5 Sep 2015 @ 10:09am

Control over an OS is Power over the Users
Who has the control over the computers?

This is the perfect illustration of why enterprises use Linux/Unix solutions over Windows.

With Windows the control is shared with Microsoft. With any Free as in Libre OS the full control is always available to the local Administrators.
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GEMont, 5 Sep 2015 @ 1:04pm

Re: Re: Side questions...
"...you can uninstall the tracking updates in Windows 7 and 8.1..."

Won't these trackers simply be updated/replaced by the next Vista or 8.1 upgrade??

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tqk (profile), 5 Sep 2015 @ 3:17pm

Re: Control over an OS is Power over the Users
With Windows the control is shared with Microsoft. With any Free as in Libre OS the full control is always available to the local Administrators.

We Free/Libre Opensource Software freaks wondered why proprietary software was going this way when they were folding DRM (originally Trusted Platform Management) into their products assuming it was just vendor lock-in trying to sew up their customer base (ie. market based coercion). Now, in hindsight, it's easy to see they likely had no choice in the matter. The MafiAA was buying up our legislators, fouling the justice system, and hijacking the market, and they either complied or they'd get sued into oblivion for refusing.

Now we see what they're left to flog. Windows-NSA, iBaubles-Walled Garden-NSA, or (so far legal) FLOSS.

"Your papers comrade!" But I was just going to the corner store to buy milk?!?

Enjoy the nightmare. Buy popcorn, while you can. Seig heil.
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Anonymous Coward, 6 Sep 2015 @ 8:27pm

Re: Re: Re:
"Linux isn't ready for primetime for musicians. It just isn't."

A thousand times this. I would dump windows in a heartbeat if my audio hardware would work on linux.
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GEMont, 7 Sep 2015 @ 1:59pm

Re: Re: Control over an OS is Power over the Users
Thought ye may be interested in this, although, considering your apparent wisdom, you may have already read it. :)

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_real_enemy_is_within_20150906

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BernardoVerda (profile), 7 Sep 2015 @ 9:17pm

Re: Re: Re:
It's been my default desktop OS since about 2001.
(And I'm just book-seller).
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tqk (profile), 7 Sep 2015 @ 9:25pm

Re: Re: Re: Control over an OS is Power over the Users
If you are not dedicated to the destruction of empire and the dismantling of American militarism, then you cannot count yourself as a member of the left.

I'm not a member of "the left", and why would anyone want to be? Left vs. right hasn't had any real meaning since ca. 18th century.

I hate tyranny. I'm not sympathetic to "the left" or "the right" or "progressive" vs. "conservative" politics. I am an individualist and wish everyone else wanted to be so too.
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ottermaton (profile), 8 Sep 2015 @ 7:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
Funny how you try to refute a comment I made ("You obviously don't know much about Linux") by linking to a post where you say practically the exact same thing
I know how to use and maintain a Windows system, but I only know how to use a Linux system.
(emphasis mine)

Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?

And since you clearly agree with me that you don't know much about Linux, let's repeat this for emphasis:
... maybe you should just not speak about things you don't understand.
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OFF TOPIC, 8 Sep 2015 @ 12:04pm

"I hate tyranny. I'm not sympathetic to "the left" or "the right" or "progressive" vs. "conservative" politics. I am an individualist and wish everyone else wanted to be so too."

Just had to quote you so it could be repeated.
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Sep 2015 @ 2:41am

Re:
That's too hard. I'm going back to windows
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Anonymous Coward, 11 Sep 2015 @ 9:10am

Re: Re: You are all right and wrong.
PCLinuxOS
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Anonymous Coward, 20 Sep 2015 @ 6:18pm

Re: Re:
Read tracyanne's method right above you.
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Open Sourcerer, 21 Nov 2015 @ 5:14pm

DIGITAL RIGHTS JUSTICE VS RANKING DIGITAL RIGHTS
If I may, I'd like to suggest that we examine MORE FULLY-- AND CAREFULLY-- the Rights violations happening on the Net (both Digital and Human) by way of ALL large ICT players, and lesser websites!... before we run off in support of any "new initiative" that "certain" may have, to "combat" the scourge of "Microsoft injustice"! And in doing so, we may find, that alternative solutions to Microsoft's evils, have been with us all along!

Above and beyond the ranking of ICT sector companies with regard to their ICT commissions and/ or omissions (with the hope of their future embarrassment!... and that should include-- for me, and primarily!-- the commissions and/ or omissions surrounding FOSS and FOSH!... i.e., Free and Open Source Software, and Free and Open Source Hardware violations!) initiated by Rebecca MacKinnon, of the Ranking Digital Rights Project, is the need to hold these (and more) to account through criminal and/ or civil measures (in "REAL TIME"!), for their immediate criminal and/ or civil ICT injustices! And yes, the commissions and/ or omissions against FOSS and FOSH, are deserving of both criminal and civil measures!... albeit, in a "CONSCIONABLE WORLD"! But, even effecting "MY" preferred ICT accountability over simple ranking, neglects the millions of lesser websites throughout cyberspace (whether business, NGO+ NPO, or bureaucratic... and whether run by groups, or by individuals), wherein, Digital Rights commissions and/ or omissions (directly and/ or indirectly evidenced) are (and will be) equally guilty of immediate/ ACTIVE criminal and/ or civil injustices (and which includes, and will include, the ICT "things"/ devices that will compose/ comprise the pending ubiquitous "INTERNET- OF- THINGS"!... and the which, victims will have little time, and resource, to remedy!)! And, for which, "REAL TIME" accountability (criminal, civil, and technical measures), is ESSENTIAL (i.e., by way of both "REAL TIME" reporting, assessment, and intervention!... although, and in the case of the commissions and/ or omissions surrounding FOSS and FOSH Digital... and Human... Rights injustices, a more fundamental, and all- encompassing approach, is required!... inasmuch, as the scope and scale of the injustices, warrants a unique global remedy!)!

So... how does one effect "REAL TIME" reporting-- to start-- of immediate/ ACTIVE ICT commissions and/ or omissions (directly, and/ or indirectly evidenced)? And then, once reported, and confirmed, how can a victim receive "REAL TIME" ACTION re a confirmed immediate breach, of one's Digital (and Human) Rights (whether an Internet breach, and/ or, one involving some thing/ device associated with the pending "IoT")?

Simply, what we need is a GLOBAL, POLITICALLY MANDATED, and AI-based, Digital Rights menu option (in the form of a globally recognized "Digital Rights Icon") within every Proprietary and Non- proprietary Operating System (AND EMBEDDED WITHIN ICT FIRMWARE/ MICROCODE)... OPERATING IN "REAL TIME"... AND OVERSEEN BY THE "FREE AND OPEN SOURCE DIGITAL RIGHTS GOVERNANCES, AND THE FOS ICT COMMUNITIES (the latter, not to be confused with the 'Open Source community'... see, Why Open Source Misses The Point)"!... that will facilitate "REAL TIME" victim report gathering, assessment, and intervention, on behalf of any internet user, and/ or user of an internet linked thing/ device, who believes that a Digital (and Human) Rights breach, is in play! And afterupon "REAL TIME" confirmation of the reported breach, or breaches, a "REAL TIME" remedy, or remedies (whether criminal, civil, or technical... or a combination of these), will then be invoked!

And so... if a main internet player (e.g., a corporation, a main designer of an ICT thing/ device, governance, or NGO+ NPO advocacy), or a lesser website, has been confirmed breaching a Digital (and Human) Right, such a player, or website, could receive IMMEDIATE ACTION concerning the confirmed breach... through a global network of ICT report gathering, assessment, and intervention... and, which could involve a remote "REAL TIME" "INTERRUPTION" of the player's, or website's, confirmed Digital (and Human) Rights injustices (and just like the disputed remote actions of those applying "Digital Rights Management"/ DRM... for now!... to hapless internet users/ victims!... and-- of course-- DRM, not to be confused with "Digital Rights"!... see, "Digital Rights", under Wikipedia!)! Think of it as a kind of "Digital Rights 911" for netizens, and mandated "Digital Airbag" for all "Cybercars"!

But, just as exciting as these measures are in addressing immediate/ ACTIVE commissions and/ or omissions (directly, and/ or indirectly evidenced) of Digital (and Human) Rights by main ICT players, and lesser websites, is a new direction concerning the future course of current FOSS and FOSH technical developments!... the which, I have recently communicated to various key developers, in these areas!

It has recently donned on me, that an even more important state- of- the- art Digital Rights supporting benchmark for personal computers... beyond FOSS and FOSH!... is FOSS and FOSH, written in a Non- proprietary Computer Programming Language!

A five- time winner of local, national and international technology awards, the Oregon Helps website provides a screening tool in several different languages for 28 programs in the areas of food and nutrition, health care, housing, children, and family resources, financial benefits, and veteran’s services. By answering a few questions at the beginning of the screening tool, the website directs individuals to more specific questions... depending on age, disability, household composition, and county of residence. The product of an extensive collaboration between several government agencies, non- profit organizations, and a private consultant, Oregon Helps keeps tool maintenance costs under $10,000 per year by, UTILIZING NON- PROPRIETARY COMPUTER PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES (see, Improving Access To Benefits For Low- Income Families... Google cache!).

Eureka!-- I thought-- we can improve on FOSS and FOSH, by extending the two notions of FOSS and FOSH, to the LANGUAGES used to create FOSS programs, and FOSH firmware!

And so.... given the problems inhere in the use of Proprietary Programming Languages (see-- e.g.-- http://bytes.com/topic/c-sharp/answers/249140-c-proprietary-programming-language... see ᵃ)... let alone, the problems inhere with the "Closedware Apps, Systemware, and Firmware" these languages create!... it is vital that we now begin moving beyond merely FOSS and FOSH!... to FOSS and FOSH written in a FOS Programming Language! And so... I do herein offer up the terms, FOSP FOSS, and FOSP FOSH!... for Free and Open Source Programmed FOSS, and Free and Open Source Programmed FOSH! And the distinction being, that a FOSS program, and FOSH firmware can be prepared in either a Proprietary or Non- proprietary Programming Language, whereas a FOSP FOSS program, and FOSP FOSH firmware, necessitates the use of a Free and Open Source Programming Language!... so that any substantive, or perceived subversive Proprietary control by way of the Closedware Proprietary Programming Language the FOSS program, or FOSH firmware was written in, is eliminated!

Now... this is not to suggest that FOS programming languages haven't been used to fashion Closedware programs, or firmware (although... at present!... I can't think of any!)... nevertheless, there is less recourse (leverage... moral, or otherwise!) that Proprietary Programming Language users have, if the Closedware program, or firmware, is designed through the use of a CPPL! And so, not only is the program's or firmware's source code "out of bounds" to closedware users (if programmed using a Closedware- based PPL!), the very Programming Language that the Closedware program or firmware was written in, may also be "out of bounds"! And it's unclear to me... at this point!... whether the FSF-- at least-- is aware of this dilemma!

THIS... THEN... PROVIDES PURISM, WITH A WHOLE NEW DESIGN STRATEGY FOR FUTURE PURISM LAPTOPS (IN ADDITION, TO THE NOVENA, AND THE GLUGLUG DESIGNS)!... AND, AN ENTIRELY NEW CROWDSUPPLY CAMPAIGN!-- AT LEAST! AND ONE, I'M CERTAIN, MOST FOSS AND FOSH SUPPORTERS, WILL WANT TO BACK!

Lastly, in addition to the inherent robust Digital Rights support that FOSS and FOSH represent, several initiatives have already been in the works... for years!... which have been providing-- and are providing!-- this ESSENTIAL ICT SECURITY to millions of the world's poorest netizens (and e.g., through efforts of such groups as the "Free Geek movement"!)!... not to mention, the provision of FREE WIFI, by way of groups such as the Media Development Investment Fund!

So... and simply said... thanks!... "Security Gatekeepers!"... but!... NO THANKS! Your technomae doesn't cut it!... on the security front-- at least!... and, inasmuch, as better technoma currently exists to get the job done!... and!... gratis!... and, for everyone!... equally!

And on a Wiki theme, I note with interest-- and extreme prejudice-- the absence within (a) Wikipedia's "List of Programming Languages" (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages); (b) Wikipedia's "List of Programming Languages by Type" (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages_by_type); and (c) Wikipedia's "Comparison of programming languages" (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_programming_languages) of a distinction/ demarcation between CPPLs, and FOS PPLs. And so, given what I've just relayed concerning FOSP FOSS and FOSP FOSH, it's essential that Wikipedia be "encouraged" to provide this added designation/ elaboration, so that the whole of the collective Free and Open Source community, can-- soon-- begin to focus on these FOS PPLs, in the creation of a new generation, of FOSS programs, and FOSH firmware! And thanx!

ᵃ http://opensource.com/business/15/9/free-software-foundation-30-years#comment-83746.

Please!... no emails!... or email publication!
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Bo, 5 Dec 2015 @ 8:24am

Windows has reached the desktop with Windows 10 after all theese years. Virtual desktops, easy to find programs, low processor usage, but still using too much memory. The file system as horrible as ever. A lot of tweaking.I have used the prompt for the first time in my life and I still have to to get rid of the last windows crap apps. What worries me is updates and info sending to M$. There are only 3 distros still interesting, Manjaro, Pclos and Puppy. I don´t like Ubuntu or Debian. Solaris 10 is still support ed and it is exellent. My problem is this computer, ASUS eeebook x205TA, which has a terrible bios OK I can update, Windows 10 gave me some space for a Linux distro but i have to use a 32 bit UEFI bootloader. Off course M$ makes problems to use Linux and it is a part of their new policy. Call me an idiot but this is the first Windows that I do not want to uninstall. My Lenovo is free from M$ stuff so this I can use for different distros. BSD no thanks. Haiku, Syllable, Aros or Open Indiana if I could make it work.
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Unily, 11 Dec 2015 @ 7:48am

After using Windows 10 for a month now, I have to say I enjoy it. Although it may not be the most popular opinion, it is definitely an improvement on Windows 8. Windows 10 has gone back to its origins, back to the original desktop configuration of the past. Its reminiscent of the beautiful Windows 7, which was loved by so many.
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tqk (profile), 11 Dec 2015 @ 1:11pm

Re:
After using Windows 10 for a month now, I have to say I enjoy it.

Obviously, you've managed to ignore all the many articles lambasting it for its abusive qualities. Go read some of them and learn about what it's doing in the background with your data and Personally Identifying Information, selling you out to all its business partners, and spying on your every action as if you're just another criminal who's yet to be caught, or a mark to be fleeced.

I'm grateful every day that I made the jump to FLOSS twenty-two years ago! I don't need to worry about *my* machine and *my* software spying on me. It works for me, not some shady unknowable perverts down the wire from me!
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Uriel-238 (profile), 11 Dec 2015 @ 1:25pm

When the cook is a spy, his delicious lemon tarts are a secondary consideration
Yes, they did a lot to improve the Windows 10 GUI, and a good interface can make or brake an application (or an operating system).

But that's not the problem with Windows 10. The problem with Windows 10 is that it is the very definition of malware, an engine of betrayal to its end user in the interests of Microsoft.

And Microsoft has pretty much announced in their TOS and EULAs that they're to watch everything they do and use all that data against you whenever they feel like it.

It makes me wonder if botnets could try propagating by attaching themselves to swanky operating systems.
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