Oklahoma Cops Debut Tool That Allows Them To Drain Pre-Paid Cards During Traffic Stops
from the Square,-but-for-fucking-citizens dept
A couple of years ago -- as the ugliness of asset forfeiture abuse was becoming a mainstream media topic -- the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation's senior Washington correspondent published a cautionary article featuring a very blunt headline:
American shakedown: Police won't charge you, but they'll grab your money
In it, the CBC's Neil MacDonald pointed out that being "not from around here," coupled with rental vehicles and cash -- made visiting Canadians little more than rolling ATMs for "drug interdiction task forces" sporting nifty acronyms and friendly asset-sharing partnerships with federal agencies.
MacDonald listed a few tactics that might lower Canadians' chances of being robbed at badgepoint:
Avoid long chats if you're pulled over. Answer questions politely and concisely, then persistently ask if you are free to go.
Don't leave litter on the vehicle floor, especially energy drink cans.
Don't use air or breath fresheners; they could be interpreted as an attempt to mask the smell of drugs.
Don't be too talkative. Don't be too quiet. Try not to wear expensive designer clothes. Don't have tinted windows.
And for heaven's sake, don't consent to a search if you are carrying a big roll of legitimate cash.
Cash = guilt to many law enforcement agencies, even if they're only interested in pursuing cash, rather than criminal charges.
[T]he Oklahoma Highway Patrol has a device that also allows them to seize money in your bank account or on prepaid cards.
It's called an ERAD, or Electronic Recovery and Access to Data machine, and state police began using 16 of them last month.
Here's how it works. If a trooper suspects you may have money tied to some type of crime, the highway patrol can scan any cards you have and seize the money.
Well… fuck.
So much for keeping the thieving, non-prosecuting cops off your back by carrying prepaid cards rather than cash. Highway-patrolling drug warriors are now going to be pressing the narrative that drug dealers and other criminals now use cards, because asset forfeiture has severely disrupted the cash-based drug economy or something.
There's literally no way to win. Any amount of money is considered inherently suspicious when it's in cash form. Now any amount of money -- no matter where it's stored -- can be declared the fruits of criminal activity by a cop with an ERAD device. Law enforcement can now drain any prepaid cards in your possession all without you having to leave the driver's seat.
And they have every incentive to do so. ERAD sells these devices to cops for $5,000 and takes 7.7% of the haul. (Here's Oklahoma's contract [PDF] with ERAD for the devices.) These devices aren't going to pay for themselves. Nope, citizens will pay for them -- twice. First, during the initial outlay and a second time when their cards are drained by law enforcement officers.
But it's totally cool because there's an almost non-existent chance you'll be able to recover improperly-seized funds at some undetermined point in the future.
"If you can prove can prove that you have a legitimate reason to have that money it will be given back to you. And we've done that in the past," [Oklahoma Highway Patrol Lt. John] Vincent said about any money seized.
Sure, that sounds like due process, but it really isn't. Law enforcement agencies have at least 30 days before they have to officially notify those whose money they've seized. From that point, seized assets head into a labyrinthine adjudication process in which the government does everything it can to keep the owners of forfeited cash from participating, starting with in rem proceedings that pit the state versus seized money, rather than against the person from which the funds were seized.
To navigate this, you need a lawyer, preferably one with experience in recovering forfeited property. That isn't cheap. During the long, expensive process, agencies will often try to push people into accepting low-dollar settlements that allow the government to keep money it hasn't proven is tied to criminal activity.
In many cases, the dollar amount is low enough that the expense of recovering it makes it a losing proposition. But those lower dollar amounts can also be the difference between solvency and bankruptcy for someone who's had their money seized. With this technology, officers will literally be stealing people's paychecks, as those who aren't able to secure a checking account are now almost exclusively receiving their paychecks on reloadable prepaid cards.
And, in almost every state, including Oklahoma, there's no conviction stipulation tied to asset forfeiture, meaning the government only has to stake a claim based on dubious "evidence" -- like the driver was traveling on a major interstate, had one too many air fresheners in the car, an officer thought he smelled marijuana, etc. -- to hold onto money it can't prove is tied to criminal activity.
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Filed Under: asset forfeiture, card scanner, civil asset forfeiture, debit cards, oklahoma, oklahoma highway patrol, police
Reader Comments
The First Word
“I feel a new musical coming on....
"OOOOk-lahoma where your bank accounts are drained!And where the police feel free when they've pulled over me
To take all the money that they can see!
Oklahoma, Ev'ry pullover is a cop's jackpot,
On the side of the road police will say
They can take all of my hard earned pay!"
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Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
http://blog.simplejustice.us/2016/06/09/erad-because-its-not-just-about-the-cash/
I know we're hearing the tip of the iceberg here (sorry to mix metaphors) but thanks for the head's up. The more this odious abuse of due process is given the light of day the less this practice will be treated as lawful... or allowed. (Note I didn't say "tolerated").
Ehud Gavron
Tucson AZ
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Another reason to stay away from OK
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Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
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From the department of: 'What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine, get over it.'
Now when are they going to consider the economy?
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Michael, Sep 17th, 2014 @ 6:43am
Re: Re: Travelers Checks
That's right. Plus, we haven't seen any US law enforcement officers forcing people to withdraw money from the ATM yet.
[T]he Oklahoma Highway Patrol has a device that also allows them to seize money in your bank account or on prepaid cards.
So money in the bank is illegal now too?
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Re: From the department of: 'What is mine is mine and what is yours is mine, get over it.'
The Orange Lantern Corps
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Re:
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There is no you are innocent until you are proven guilty with the forfeiture of your funds.
Many folks carry cash when travelling on the road of if they are going to make a purchase outright or a down payment ( which a lot of people still do when going to buy goods such as vehicles, recreational vehicles, Furniture, Electronics etc) because some times the seller doesn't want a cheque or a bank draft due to fraudsters making those various forgeries and some times you can get a better deal with cash.
It was bad enough that anyone who had cash and got stopped and said they had cash was suspected of drug dealing or money laundering or whatever else the cop that pulled you over thought was appropriate to liberate you money now they can do it and take your funds because you have a prepaid debit or credit card??? Like WTF
This is more than an abuse of police power but this is an abuse of due process and of a persons constitutional rights. Just because I carry cash or a pre paid card does not mean I am doing it for nefarious purposes.
I have had upwards of 35k in cash on me and it wasnt for illegal purposes but it is because I got to a lot of vehicle and equipment auctions and buy vehicles, tools, equipment that I will then sell for a profit (hopefully).
I carry that kind of cash because I know if I am buying cars trucks SUV or what not that at an auction and depending how many I buy and for what price that I can pay the price for the vehicle, the auctioneers fee and the taxes and then take it home that very day or get it paid for and come pick it up later and thus dont have to worry about any storage fees charged by the auction facility.
So because I have that kind of cash does it mean I am a criminal or doing something nefarious, no it doesnt, but somehow I doubt the cops would care even if I had proof.
The more I hear about asset forfeiture of peoples cash the more I liken it to copyright trolling and patent trolling who look for victims and then shake them down for settlements, to me this has ring to it like asset forfeiture in that some people are not going to fight it and those who do get offered a percentage of their money back and the cops etc keep the rest.
I find it even more astonishing that this company that makes this device is taking 7.7% of what the cops seize and that state and federal agencies think this is all A-OK that people are being robbed by roadside bandits disguised as law enforcement... oh wait IT IS law enforcement!
It is shady shit like this that just heaps more distrust of law enforcement and government who are supposed to be looking out for it's citizens, not running roughshod over their rights and stealing from them.
When I was young we were always taught that the police officer is your friend and they are their to help you, but these days it seems while that it is getting to be more and more of dont trust the police officer and what you do and say for fear of where it may lead you in your interactions with them.
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Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
A take it you use the word “foolishly” because there are no such adverbs as “under-threat-of-life-plus-cancer-ishly” or “semi-consciously-wheezing-through-broken-teeth-ishly”.
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Growth industry of the 21st century!
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Re:
You cannot ever trust government because distrust is one of the mechanisms that helps to keep government honest. Trust just says, it's okay to be corrupt.
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Can the RIAA / MPAA get one of these?
Wouldn't that be about the same amount of due process as victims of Oklahoma cops are getting?
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Re: Can the RIAA / MPAA get one of these?
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Re: Growth industry of the 21st century!
Nope. That right there is resisting arrest. And even a conspiracy to resist arrest (if there isn't such a crime, wait 5 minutes).
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Re:
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The Bad Good Old Days
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how can I try out my new toy?
I have zero doubt, combining high tech weapons with no accountability and a reason to use them, they will be used as often as possible. I expect one is in use right now while I write this.
In fact, they better scale up seizures before the serfs catch on and the law catches up. But then I'm cynical.
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https://www.erad-group.com/
Tell them how much you enjoy them creating this technology.
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Freeze funds AND credit too...
http://www.popsci.com/card-reader-allow-oklahoma-cops-to-seize-suspects-money
Ehud
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Although Latin American cops have earned a rather notorious reputation for bribery, the "fines" are usually small (and often negotiable) and the payments basically "voluntary" -- unlike the US cops who force strongarm searches and take everything of value they find.
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We're from the Government. We're here to help you.
To think it all started at the U.S. Borders (A.K.A "Constitution Free Zone")
Scanning Prepaid Cards At The Border Won’t Stop Money Laundering - October 18, 2012
and
Department Of Homeland Security To Scan Payment Cards At Borders And Airports - Nov 07, 2012
As far as them being able to drain your bank accounts through your ATM cards, if they're not doing it now it only means they're not doing it YET, but I'm sure they will be working on getting that implemented too.
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Easy Workaround to this Crap
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What does ERAD think about this?
Do they care that LEO's are seizing money without due process? It's one thing to seize someone's money after they've been accused and arrested for a crime, but it's a completely different matter when the police take the money simply because it's there.
And it's yet another thing when ERAD takes a percentage of every seizure. So again, so they know the money is coming from innocent people?
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Bitcoin, then?
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helping hand
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Re:
Yeah, and then you'll go out and buy drugs with the profits. See, they know how that works.
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Re:
I wonder if they could request extradition of your guilty money.
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Re: Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Card_security_code
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Re:
The banks and credit card companies are government partners, so I wouldn't expect them to resist much if at all.
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Bitcoin
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now that's if you have a not excellent citizenship score. that score is why all the snooping is going on.
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I feel a new musical coming on....
And where the police feel free when they've pulled over me
To take all the money that they can see!
Oklahoma, Ev'ry pullover is a cop's jackpot,
On the side of the road police will say
They can take all of my hard earned pay!"
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Re: Easy Workaround to this Crap
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They are right!
In my view, that's the point of time where the money definitely becomes tied to criminal activitity.
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
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Re: What does ERAD think about this?
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Re:
*weeps uncontrollably*
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Re:
That fighting back can be political or it can be physical, if the politicians refuse to stop this illegal behaviour by the supposed "law enforcement".
If someone demands my money at the point of a gun I will shoot to defend myself not hand over my money to highway thieves.
Probably going to die, but I will die defending my rights.
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Re: Re: Growth industry of the 21st century!
Which makes no sense unless you are being targeted by dirty cops.
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Re: The Bad Good Old Days
where those at the top have all the wealth, power and control. Everyone else is treated as slaves to be exploited.
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Re:
The baby survived but it had to go into immediate surgery since their whole front of their body was blasted open.
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Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
The part from the article that struck me as hilarious was ... as if records in police custody are never "accidentally destroyed", "aged out" due to a convenient policy, or lost "due to technical faults".
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Re: Re:
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/infant-responsible-grenade-thrown-face/
Hint they claim the infant was at fault for not crawling away when the grenade landed in the crib next to him.
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Re:
- Frank Herbert, God Emperor of Dune
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THEN
The Officer has to be Pulled in to declare HOW/WHEN/WHY he claimed the money..
And if this is a friend of the Officer...the officer can relinquish the claim...MONEY IN HIS POCKET..
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Re: What does ERAD think about this?
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Re: Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
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In Related News
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Re:
Both are wanted in the US despite never having been there.
Kim's arrest was particularly spectacular, a raid worthy of Hollywood movies. (And probably just as costly too.)
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The raid on Kim Dotcom's home.
As Dotcom pointed out later, his workplace is public. His commutes are routine. There are plenty of ways they could have arrested him without busting down his door.
Someone wanted the action and drama.
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It sounds like they can pull it as a POS transaction
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Re: What does ERAD think about this?
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The next step is to assume that all electronic money is crime money.
They'll just need to find a way to authorize getting a list of security codes.
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Can credit cards be maxed out in this fashion?
The law is already warped enough that they can seize property without a conviction, it only makes sense that they can torque it a bit more to brand good credit as ill-gotten gains.
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Load cards onto phone
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Re: Load cards onto phone
Though I may be just interpreting this as brutal determination of a highwayman to get to his prize.
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Re:
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Re:
They aren't arresting and charging you. They are arresting and charging the cash. Who knows what nefarious purposes that cash or pre paid card might have had? Be glad that the police rescued you from it before it could put its sinister designs into effect.
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Re:
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Not even trying to pretend anymore
Translation: "If you can prove your innocence after we declare you guilty on the spot and take your criminal money we might give you some of your money back."
The Oklahoma cops at least have reached the point where they're not even bothering to pretend that 'Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law' applies, they are the law, and if they say someone or something is guilty then it is, and it's up to the accused to prove their innocence after they've already been punished.
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"No you're not under arrest or being detained. No you're not free to leave."
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Sad thing is, this probably targets anyone who doesn't live in Oklahoma, and targets anyone who doesn't look like a white, well off or rich, person.
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Re: Growth industry of the 21st century!
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Re:
Change it to must and it would be slightly better, but only to the extent of a slightly shiny surface covering an absolutely rotten core, that being that money can be stolen without a conviction or even trial, and it's up to the former owner to prove that they deserve to get it back.
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Re: Bitcoin, then?
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Re: Re: Re:
"The desire for money is the root of all evil"
and the police sure have a lot of desire.
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Re: Re: Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
It boggles my mind that there are currently stored value cards out there that don't require chip and pin to drain money from the card. This problem was solved by 1998.
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RICO Act
Once you win the RICO Act violation, THEN you publicly sue them for expenses and injury. Quite simple.
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The best part is the cop would never be able to recover the funds, as they are engaged in criminal activity- armed robbery.
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Re:
If enough people are doing this the card makers will shut it down.
Then, I woke up.
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Re: Re: Re:
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It would seem nowadays that while that still appears to be their directive that various agencies in the Law Enforcement sector have turned their duties of enforcement into revenue generation.
These days we have photo radar and red light cameras which are alleged to be for enforcement of the laws they fall under but most people see as revenue generation under the guise of enforcement.
There are quotas for officers to write so many traffic tickets per month (even though most Police agencies deny this, but has been stated as such by some officers) and with those monetary fines it adds up for the department.
In the city where I live when photo radar was first introduced it made 3 million a year, the next year it made 7 million a year as they bought more photo radar equipped vehicles and they have continued to do so. In 2015 my city police department collected 45 million from photo radar... yes you read that right 45 million.
People and even politicians have been complaining in my city to the mayor and it's council members that the police departments use of photo radar is not being use as a deterrent as meant, but as a revenue generation tool. The Police and our city Traffic safety office are very elusive about how and why they were able to generate 45 million from photo radar.
The media in my city had picked up on this and had found out that the powers that be and the police decided to lower the threshold of how many kilometers over the posted speed limit you had to be going over before you got a ticket.
The city traffic safety office and the police will not confirm or deny what that threshold is and will not confirm what the media is reporting it as.
The Police and traffic safety office have also been fighting against the call from citizens and council members to put more signs of what the posted speed limit is some areas where the speed goes from 60 to say 50 because they say it is not needed and drivers should know this already.
every year there are more and more red light and photo radar cameras going up at high traffic locations through out the city. ( and of course while the police and traffic safety office wont say it most of the public know that if you have 45000 cars going thru that particular intersection at rush hour times you are going to catch a percentage speeding and they know this and are playing the odds)
It seems more and more that law enforcement agencies are concerned with revenue generation under the guise of enforcement, and asset forfeiture seems to be the new "it" thing to achieve that goal.
The slippery slope and tactics law enforcement is employing these days seems to be of the we do what we want mantra and your rights be damned innocent or not.
Law Enforcement wonders why there is a major shift in the perception the people have about them nowadays and how they are under such scrutiny by the public and press, maybe it's the shit like this that they do by seizing some citizens money when no crime has been committed is just one more reason why
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why not use a phone instead of a cc
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Re: RICO Act
It's getting difficult to imagine a judge these days letting that happen.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Prepaid debit cards only? Coerce PIN for others?
Since the ERAD badgepoint theft device likely doesn't spit out money but instead just transfers it to another account, it'll probably fall under the purchase rather than withdrawal rules.
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Re:
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Not OK by me!
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Re:
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Re:
Remember: that money is being confiscated not because its source is illegal but because it was planning to commit a criminal transaction.
You can be lucky that they don't charge a wad of twenties for forming a conspirative terrorist group, all in the same pocket.
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Theft not forfeiture
I don't see how this applies. The theory with cash is straightforward enough: untraceable (nearly so) it can be used for illicit transactions, transactions out of the recorded view, and grudgingly, is therefore likely to be an instrument supporting a crime.
But every prepaid debit card I'm aware of these days has to be registered to its owner, because: terrorism. Transactions involving those cards are traceable. Therefore the "used for illicit transactions" fails on the face, because these supposed illicit transactions would be overt, reviewable.
So it seems to me that taking money from a prepaid debit card owned by a person--that is holding it--would have to constitute theft, not forfeiture, since it appears to me that the justification for forfeiture fails.
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Highway robbery by armed bandits.
But taking money from citizens without ever giving them a day in court?
Highway robbery. It fits the textbook definition. Just because these people have uniforms and a paycheck from the state doesn't mean they're not criminals.
Merriam-Webster defines it: "robbery committed on or near a public highway usually against travelers." Ie, exactly what is being done with impunity right now in Oklahoma (and other places).
Why isn't there an uproar? Why aren't these police being arrested by federal authorities?
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Re: Can credit cards be maxed out in this fashion?
If you can speak intelligibly without college education in the U.S., how could you have educated yourself legally in the U.S.?
If you have a college education, how could you not be drowning in student debts?
Clearly there is something fishy going on if you have money.
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Re: Re: RICO Act
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Call for all hackers
What is needed here boys to bring this about? Do this often enough surreptitiously and the law enforcement account will go negative, do it properly and the specific LEO will cop the blame for the negative transaction.
It should have the positive effect of making the ERAD device unusable and very unprofitable for the ERAD manufacturers.
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Re: Re: Re: Growth industry of the 21st century!
Too lazy to dig up the reference, but they did that to a lawyer in a courthouse who had the audacity to advise her client that he/she did not need to answer any of the "casual questions" the police wanted to ask.
So they arrested her for resisting arrest, without resistance and booked her for a few hours or over night (don't remember which).
The judge wasn't overly impressed, but the principal goal, namely retaliation in the form of harrassment, still had been accomplished.
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Re: Re: Re:
So could have the police.
But let's not get unrealistic in our expectations.
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Re: Highway robbery by armed bandits.
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It's worth pointing out,
Notably this kind of banditry is not new in this region. The O.K. panhandle has been a favourite for desperado's for hundreds of years. Police shakedowns, are also probably nothing new here. What is new, is the federal endorsement of it.
I regard this as economic warfare against the federal reserve bank. Federally endorsed banditry has an effect on the way the world see's the stability of the U.S. dollar. Treating the Dollar like the Colombian Peso, is going to make the world view the dollar like the Colombian Peso.
So at a macro economic level, the effect is the same as the redcoats printing their own continentals, or the nazis printing five pound notes. It dilutes currency valuation.
There is no long term gain for the fed in letting this continue. Encouraging people into the black market is going to have consequences. George Washington learned that the hard way in 1791 when congress started demanding cash tax revenues from markets that weren't cash driven.
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Easier Workaround
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Re:
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How many more are there we don't yet know about.
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Re: Theft not forfeiture
You're on the right track. Prepaid credit cards (gift cards) are anonymous.
The cops here are asking for far more than they need, knowing everyone will be smugly content with preventing the unreasonable draining of gift cards. Meanwhile, they get away with the continued erosion of our privacy: linking scanned gift cards with the identity of individuals who committed the suspicious activity of interstate travel.
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sales pitch on Officer.com
http://www.officer.com/company/12189987/erad-electronic-recovery-and-access-to-data
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VIOLATION FEELS LIKE RAPE
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Re: VIOLATION FEELS LIKE RAPE
Good for you. Being sure of what Hillary Clinton actually is aiming to do once she is president is a privilege not granted to many. If she knows herself, she certainly knows how to keep a secret. Contrast this with Trump who wants to do five conflicting things within two paragraphs.
Moron or weasel: your turn, America.
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Re: Not OK by me!
That's OK, they're hoping to have it coming to a police force near you soon!
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Re: VIOLATION FEELS LIKE RAPE
Is this the same Hillary Clinton that has said that any man accused of sexual assault against a woman should be automatically deemed guilty unless he can *prove* his innocence? Yeah, I don't she's too averse to "injustice".
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Fundraising Drives
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Re: Re: Theft not forfeiture
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Re: Growth industry of the 21st century!
So that's why they want to ban encryption.
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Lots of companies PAY employees on prepaid cards
There have also been times when I've legitimately carried large amounts of cash. A group I used to work with held an annual event of sorts and I ended on on the crew counting ticket proceeds and packaging them to make a bank deposit. As it happened, the people on that crew including myself were all licensed weapon holders and we were, in fact, very well armed as we carried nearly $200,000 in cash to a bank deposit drop chute.
Would have been a real pain to get stopped by the cops. Several heavily armed men with a lot of cash? Surely they can't simply be trying to protect themselves and their honestly-acquired money!?
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Re: Lots of companies PAY employees on prepaid cards
So much the better. You are much less likely to shoot the confiscating policemen than drug couriers would be. We are talking about ordinary highway men, I mean policemen here, not special forces. They wouldn't mess with actual drug lords. They are neither trained nor paid for that.
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Re: Re: VIOLATION FEELS LIKE RAPE
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