After Multi-Month Tone Deaf Shitshow, Microsoft Finally Lets Users Control Obnoxious Windows 10 Upgrade

from the lack-of-control dept

Wed, Jun 29th 2016 3:21am — Karl Bode

Microsoft's decision to offer Windows 10 as a free upgrade to Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 made sense on its surface. It was a nice freebie for users happy to upgrade, and an effective way to herd customers on older Windows iterations onto the latest platform to help consolidate support expense. But Microsoft's upgrade in practice has seen no shortage of criticism from users annoyed by a total lack of control over the update, and Microsoft's violent tone deafness in response to the complaints.

For example a Reddit post from an anti-poaching organization made the rounds earlier this year after the 17 GB automatic Windows 10 update resulted in huge per megabyte charges from their satellite broadband ISP. Microsoft's response to these complaints? Ignore them. As complaints grew, Microsoft finally provided a way to fully disable the forced upgrade, but made sure it involved forcing users to modify the registry, something Microsoft knew full well less technical users wouldn't be comfortable attempting to hurdle.

But Microsoft made the problem worse in other ways, too. The Redmond giant also came under fire for upgrade popups that misleadingly shoved users toward the upgrade. For example, closing an update notification dialogue box by clicking "X" automatically began the update process, much like malware:

"Last week, Microsoft silently changed Get Windows 10 yet again. And this time, it has gone beyond the social engineering scheme that has been fooling people into inadvertently upgrading to Windows 10 for months. This time, it actually changed the behavior of the window that appears so that if you click the “Close” window box, you are actually agreeing to the upgrade. Without you knowing what just happened."

Things have been escalating ever since, often to comedic effect. But this week things changed somewhat with the news that Microsoft has struck a $10,000 settlement with a California woman who sued the company after an ill-timed Windows 10 upgrade brought her office computers to a crawl. The woman took Microsoft to court after support failed to help resolve the issue, a spokesman saying Microsoft halted its appeal of the ruling "to avoid the expense of further litigation."

And while Microsoft was sure to avoid admitting error of any kind, the company this week announced it will finally give users actual control over the Windows 10 upgrade experience. A new notification window will let users update now, schedule the upgrade for a later date, or (gasp) decline the free offer entirely:

"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing," admits Windows chief Terry Myerson, in a statement to The Verge. "We've been working hard to incorporate their feedback and this week, we'll roll out a new upgrade experience with clear options to upgrade now, schedule a time, or decline the free offer."

Aren't you a bunch of sweethearts, actually listening to "valued customers" screaming for months about how you're acting like a malware vendor! As of now, this is what the Windows 10 upgrade notification will look like:

And to think: it only took months of public kicking and screaming, a repeated, vicious beating in the media (even from historical supporters of the company) and this latest settlement for Microsoft to do the right thing. It's particularly absurd given that (assuming you like operating systems that send uncontrollable chatter over the network) Windows 10 is generally well reviewed and liked by people. All Microsoft really had to do was offer the free upgrade, let the OS sell itself, then give consumers some control over the process and this entire absurd saga would have been avoided.

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Filed Under: upgrade, windows 10
Companies: microsoft

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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:40am

Heh, you'd like to think its generally well received and MS is willing to help...

This morning I was trying to help Dan Bull (Yes THAT Dan Bull) get help with his borrowed Win10 Laptop that froze on the loading/welcome screen. He was having a less than helpful time with MS support, who wanted to sell him Advanced Help (to talk to someone who didn't just bang keywords into an internal database of fixes) or he should return it because it is still under warranty.

His mistake was even after describing that it wasn't a blue screen error, but mentioning the screen was blue where the error was.

After asking if he could still use the the locked up computer... and not selling him a support contract... they blamed the computer manufacturer... despite it being Win10 locking itself up after yanking him to desktop out of a game he was playing.

Why is Dan Bull using a borrowed laptop you ask?
Because Win10 took a shit on his laptop right before he was due to travel to work...

I'm beginning to wonder if MS is following the printer business model... have the OS free but the support is going to cost you more than human blood...

They have what could redeem them after Win8, but they refuse to accept that users like to have control. That the silent Daddy knows best treatment, and ignoring them until everyone is pissed off isn't a great way to make people adopt to it. MS isn't Apple, they need to stop trying to emulate them. We don;t all want touch screens, locked gardens, and silence when there is a problem...
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David, 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:43am

Good joke.
What does this amount to? Microsoft changes the Windows 10 Upgrade process again. Who will be affected? Those who managed to escape the upgrade until now by meddling with the registry or using a tool that does so. So Microsoft shifts the goal posts again.

Nobody who already was hit by the malware Windows 10 installation has anything to gain here. This is like firebombing a town, machinegunning the streets for a month, then offering free candy in the town square.

Who wants to believe that there won't be another unfortunate misunderstanding, perhaps involving rat poison?
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PaulT (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:47am

"All Microsoft really had to do was offer the free upgrade, let the OS sell itself, then give consumers some control over the process"

My take on it is that this is exactly how they did it to start with. Unfortunately, after the debacle of Windows 8, privacy concerns, forced patching and the fact that 10 still uses the Metro interface, a lot of people either didn't trust them or wanted to stick with Windows 7.

The uptake was't quite what MS hoped for, so they opted for underhanded tactics. Then, something reminded them that people do have options other than doing what Microsoft wants them to whether they like it or not, so they've backtracked a little - for now.

My take on the updated dialog box is also cynical - a lot of people don't realise that the Windows 10 "free" offer was time limited, unlike the Apple OS updates it was compared to. So, all they're really doing here is saying to people "upgrade now or lose the freebie", which will get some people who have been holding off to switch. It's hardly a coincidence that this change has happened exactly 1 month before the expiry date.
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techflaws (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:54am

And to think: it only took months of public kicking and screaming, a repeated, vicious beating in the media (even from historical supporters of the company) and this latest settlement for Microsoft to do the right thing.

All of this becomes even more hilarious considering Satya Nadella's stance on his vision for Microsoft: "We aspire to move people from needing Windows to choosing Windows to loving Windows"

Good luck with that!
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PaulT (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 4:02am

Re:
Just because you aspire to do something, that doesn't mean you'll achieve it. It doesn't even mean you'll get up and do anything to start moving yourself toward that goal.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 4:08am

Re:
Perhaps Satya Nadella needs to visit...
http://doingitwrong.com/

8 was a complete screw up and made people nervous about 10, yet MS keeps pushing features windows users don't really want. You can make it do all sorts of cool things, but if you make their experience worse because the cool thing they don't care about needs to update every 5 minutes...
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Mr Big Content, 29 Jun 2016 @ 4:43am

Windows 10 Is Wonderful
I dont know why people are complaining about this wonderful FREE offer from Microsoft. Just think: it cost Microsoft BILLIONS to develop this, and you get it for FREE. Its a STEAL!!!!! Its like Piracy, only you dont get caught! Or you DO get caught, but the company just wants to hug you and kiss you!!!

I mean, Windows 8 was already so wonderful, it was really 10 out of 10, and its hard to imagine how you could improve on PERFECTION. But WINDOWS 10 GOES UP TO 11!!! Yes, its THAT GOOD, THEY SHOULD HAVE CALLED IT WINDOWS 11!!!11

We already have it installed on everybodys machines at our Office. YOU SHOULD SEE THE EXPRESSIONS ON THERE FACES!!! Productivity and Morale have just ... just ... I cant find the words for it. Every time our Microsoft Rep comes to visit, our staff get so excited, we can hardly hold them back!!! If their was such a thing as an Ineffable OS, Windows 10 is it!!!
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 4:49am

Freee offer ends July 29?
After all this time of trying to shove 10 down our throats they actually had the balls to send me an email warning that I only had until July 29 and then they will charge me $119 for it. BULLSHIT!! There will never be a time they won't want you to install a system that millions will click the "recommended" settings that will hijack your browser, search engine and file associations to their products and steal billions in ad revenue from all the other companies. They will pretend to end the free time period and in a few months offer an extended free offer so the rest of the lemmings will follow and upgrade. The install makes it look you do not have the choice to make a local account. They want you to sign on from them. This gives them your password and full administrative rights to your system. The terms of service gives them the right to go through all your files and even turn you in to law enforcement if they choose. You can go through the 13 "privacy" screens and turn everything off but they will still track everything you do. I will never install 10 until there is a trusted third party program that turns off automatic updates guarantees to block everything except the minimum they need to keep your system running. I have a friend that EVERY TIME he reboots it spends several minutes doing part of the install and only when he clicks no to the EULA it will let him boot into 8. I have a program that let me delete every gwx folder and files that Microsoft won't let you. The GWX control panel is a good program but it doesn't delete everything. You will still have several folders including 6 exe files.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 4:56am

I was hit by this one last month on a secondary computer I use only occasionally, where closing the upgrade window suddenly caused it to upgrade. It's a relief to know that I'm not crazy and didn't accidentally select one of the upgrade options (I was sure I hadn't, and yet ....). Fortunately there was an option to back it off and I did that ... and then I finally took the plunge and installed Linux. It's an adjustment, but in the long run I will be happier. And safer.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:02am

Re: Re:
8 had a few annoying things that could be easily fixed with 3rd party programs like the classic shell. You can even put back your favorite gadgets they eliminated. I am perfectly happy with 8.1 and have no plans to upgrade. I keep hiding the Get Windows 10 app and they have put it back at least 10 times. I check every update. They keep trying to put 10 spyware into 7 & 8 so you have to watch for that.
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mcinsand, 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:15am

'sell itself'... LOL!
>>All Microsoft really had to do was offer the free
>>upgrade, let the OS sell itself,...

My nonagenarian great aunt was excited about the free 'upgrade,' and I held my tongue. Windows isn't my thing (and neither is Apple's straitjacket). However, what works for one person won't work for another. She was happy about downloading it, and she was ready for an adjustment period. After 3-4 weeks, though, she started asking about solutions and options. Soon after, she asked how I handled the transition, and I told her that Windows isn't what I use, so it didn't hit me. Before long, she was pushing for me to set up another computer so she could test drive 'what you use.' Then a Windows 10 update broke her laptop install. The computer wouldn't boot, period. I couldn't get anywhere, so I took it to a shop specializing in MS devices. They said that all I could do was a fresh install.

I figured that my great aunt would want Windows 7 back, but she was adamant. She wanted me to install 'what you use' (Kubuntu), and then we could go back to Windows if she didn't like that. I ask her every month or so if she's still happy, and she says that she doesn't ever want to go back to Windows.

So, at least in that one case, Windows 10 helped to sell Linux.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:31am

absolutely love linux mint. game changer.
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PaulT (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:43am

Re: Re: Re:
So, an OS that keeps trying to second guess and override your decisions and forces you to install random 3rd party apps to keep the functionality you actually want. Wow, I wonder why people are apprehensive about updating to the next version...
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David, 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:44am

So what?
Putting fresh and slightly more legal bait on the hook doesn't mean you have to throw back the fish you already reeled in.

They are still out to get you, and they are still a moving target forcing their victims into playing a game of whack-a-mole.
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DannyB (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:52am

The lesson for Microsoft
No means NO.

Microsoft needs to learn how to get past it's 'forced install' culture.

The analogy for what Microsoft is doing to computers is completely fair.
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Rich, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:04am

What I find insanely funny is all the fanboys actually defending Microsoft for this. There is something off about a Microsoft fanboy.
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Larry, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:06am

Upgrade to Linux?
I updated my Acer chromebook to Linux and with my recent laptop purchase I put Linux on (in dual boot) figuring that I should probably have at least one machine with Windows just in case - so far I still boot that up in Linux so Ive missed the forced Windows 7 to Windows 10 drama but IF they did that, I would probably just kill the Windows partition and reclaim the SSD space.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:21am

Re: The lesson for Microsoft
Given how chatty Windows 10 is, one has to wonder if there is a government agency pushing Microsoft to upgrade as many machines as possible.
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Jason, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:29am

Microsoft's decision to offer Windows 10 as a free upgrade to Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 made sense on its surface.
I can't believe nobody else has pointed out that phrasing yet. Nicely done, Mr. Bode.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:32am

Personally, I refuse to upgrade to this surveillance OS.
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Jason, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:40am

disapproval != confusion
"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing," admits Windows chief Terry Myerson, in a statement to The Verge.
It's infuriating to me how many times a corporate response to negative feedback takes this form. I've seen it over and over again; whether it's a new policy or a new product, or whatever, there's a (nearly always predictable) groundswell of unfavorable feedback and complaints. The response? Statements that "there's a lot of confusion on this topic" or "a lot of people don't understand our position" and the like.

There may be the occasion when something new gets rolled out and is bungled to the point where people are genuinely confused. There were probably plenty of Windows users who were confused by the update process in the last year, although I'd prefer the term "misled" in quite a lot of those cases. But to dismiss legitimate feedback on the update process as "confusion" is pretty disingenuous, and it just makes it sound like Microsoft still doesn't actually care, it's just gotten to be a big enough issue that they finally have to address it. Better to just come out and admit that "not enough people are doing what we want them to do so we're finally going to tweak things so they stop complaining about it."
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mcinsand, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:49am

Re:
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:53am

...assuming you like operating systems that send uncontrollable chatter over the network
They don't send "chatter" over some random network. They systematically steal private data, likely in coordination with USA spy agencies.

If Techdirt won't call this what it is then who will?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:53am

Re: Windows 10 Is Wonderful
I'm quite happy with 7 / 10 ;-P
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BentFranklin (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:56am

Re: Re: The lesson for Microsoft
Agreed. This has to be part of a coordinated action with the government for mass surveillance. You agree to this now, then in the future any government spy's wet dreams are installed on your computer without your knowledge or consent.
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mcinsand, 29 Jun 2016 @ 6:57am

MS fanboys
Ah, but it seems like yesterday that I was one of them...I really was a fan of MS with the exception being their manuals. Granted, the books from Microsoft Press were good, and they were everything that the manuals should have been, but I was definitely an MS fanboy until 2003-2004. In 2003, we got a PC with XPSP2. Sane people may have loved it, but I didn't. There were multiple ergonomic, driver, and reliability failures that drove me to explore other OS choices.

To be honest, I expected my 'experiment' to last maybe a week or two. After all, I kept hearing that Linux and BSD were so difficult to work with that a part of me did believe that I would be crawling back to XP after a brief period of frustration. I was wrong. Despite having no experience in Unix-family environments, Linux and BSD were both much easier to manage than XP. In the time since, MS' usability has continued to slip, as have driver support and ease of installation. I keep my feet in both worlds, but I dread the occasional request to look at a Windows box.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 7:16am

Re:
How do I get rid of the metro interface. Or at least they should give me the option of having programs within metro folders like you have in Android so that you can start grouping things together (ie: a firefox folder with a default program that starts when you click it regularly but a way to click a different mouse button and enter the folder and maybe start firefox in safe mode).

The idea of having directories in the start menu was convenient in many ways when it came to grouping programs together. Removing that option entirely was kinda annoying.
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anonymous me, 29 Jun 2016 @ 7:50am

MS? pfft
Linux.
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I.T. Guy, 29 Jun 2016 @ 7:54am

Re:
Mistake #1... called MS support. LOL.
What was the outcome?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:10am

Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
That is awsome! I am considering to try out Linux for parent/grandparents next time there is trouble. For normal simple web/email/office use i really can't see a reason to use windows anymore. Just install it for them, leave my public key for ssh and don't teach them how sudo works, should eliminate accidental breakage and nasty malware.

I took the plunge into the Linux world at the same time i got windows 10, something about it creeps me out a bit. End outcome, my windows partition is still alive for gaming, but is rarely started these days. I could not be happier, it is a real improvement over windows. So much nice software so easily availible! People, if you gave not tried, you owe it to yourself to do it! Dualbooting is stupidly easy, and takes so goddamn little space
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Machin Shin (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:13am

Re: Re: Re: The lesson for Microsoft
Well, from what I understand, anything you share with Microsoft you give up privacy rights to. So anything your computer sends to them the Government can ask for without needing a warrant.

So.... When you use their full disk encryption and Microsoft "backs up" your key on their servers..... Yeah, after all that has come out about the NSA just try and argue that they aren't making copies of all those keys. If you can do that with a straight face then you have a bright future in politics.

Also lets not forget that the FBI can "neither confirm nor deny" listening in on amazon echos. So yeah, sure they are not listening in on Cortana.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:18am

Re: Re:
Microsoft support is such that it would be less painful to install and maintain an Arch Linux installation.
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PRMan, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:24am

Re: Re: Re:
Either way, you have to figure everything out by yourself anyway...
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PRMan, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:26am

Re:
My survey responses to them changed dramatically. Right after the beta, I told them I would recommend it 5/5.

But after the spying and malware tactics, I told them 1/5 because of all the spying and malware tactics...
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I.T. Guy, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:27am

Re:
There is something off about an Apple Fanboy. FTFY.

Apple lost me in 2011 when they discontinued the 17" MBP.
I sill use my late 2011 with no Apple account and El Capitan.

BTW Rich... MS is just following Apple's lead in the all-your-info-is-ours dept.
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I.T. Guy, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:37am

Microsoft blames the end user
"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing"

No motherfuker it was intrusive malware trying to take control of MY hardware. Nobody was confused at all. When you click an "X" and it proceeds with an install that's trickery. That's malware. That's confusing. How many PPL thought to themselves "I know I hit the CLOSE button."

I am curious if you hit decline offer how many more times it will pop up?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:39am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
True, but the Arch WIKI will tell you what you need to know, while last time I looked, the Microsoft documentation was a confusing mess.
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Ninja (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:43am

violent tone deafness

After aggressively abysmal I will have to add this one to my daily usage. TD: enriching our lexicon since 1997.

Ahem. I'm still waiting to see if M$ will deal with the lack of control of updates on W10.
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Ninja (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:44am

Re: Microsoft blames the end user
My thoughts exactly. You will decline till the next time they sneak it back in on some 'security' update.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 8:59am

AS much as I disliked it, I halted all updates to my Win 7 computer. Some quirk about it doesn't like upgrades and it's failed on an upgrade before. Only the fact that after three failed reboots it returns to the last known workable boot saved me from having to reinstall the OS.

Not to mention there is a cap in place to be dealt with nor that hd space is at a premium.

I'm really getting to where I dislike Microsoft and it's choices. More so than the usual. It's led to me also doing all I can to prevent as much spying/datasharing as possible through what I can control with choices and software, including removing those ad serving programs such as solitare. Any program I find with ads in it from M$ will be removed, made not to function, or in some way gotten around.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:02am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Dunning-Kruger Effect alert!!!

"YOU" know the wiki and technology well enough to do these things. But not others. Never assume what comes easy to you, will be easy for others.

I can assure you, as a long time IT Professional, everyone's documentation be it Linux or Microsoft sucks hard, and I mean BASTARD DAMN HARD!

Computing has still yet to be made user friendly... there is not a single OS producing organization that is even trying to making things reasonably user friendly.

99% of all documentation sucks because its documentation and written by people filling a quota in a rush to get documentation done with really no quality. Additionally, Any well designed UI would never require documentation.

And there will always be stupid as fuck people that cannot figure out what the "any key" is either!
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I recently purchased a new Linux only laptop, but put Win 8.1 on it (dual boot) because of my irrational need for Flight Simulator (addiction is a terrible thing). I found a place in Control Panel\System and Security\Windows Update where I could turn updates off entirely, so I have not been bothered with Win 10 upgrades. If it comes to the point where 8.1 no longer works and I cannot find a solution, I will go through the withdrawal for my addiction and format the drive before I will put Win 10 on it.

I use Windows ONLY for FS and some Techdirt, and once in a while email, which is browser based (Chrome). I did try to use my Skype account once, but the damned thing wanted me to create a new account with my Windows login name, rather than the Skype account I have had since before Microsoft bought it and began destroying it. Every thing else is done in Linux (including Skype, even though it does not appear to be being maintained in Linux, it does work).
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:32am

Re: Re: Re:
Arch Linux? Aren't you setting the bar a bit high for Microsoft? Frankly, using the "suicide linux" package is better than Microsoft support.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:43am

Re: Upgrade to Linux?
When I saw the direction that Windows was heading with 8, I started looking for other options (Ubuntu).
Completely new to me, timing coincided with Valve adding gaming support to the platform.
Dove in with dual boot, spent 1/4 my time, then half, then for the last year almost all my time in Linux.
Anything program or UI that I was used to in Windows I've either replicated or replaced with something better.
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Rekrul, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:55am

Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
I figured that my great aunt would want Windows 7 back, but she was adamant. She wanted me to install 'what you use' (Kubuntu), and then we could go back to Windows if she didn't like that. I ask her every month or so if she's still happy, and she says that she doesn't ever want to go back to Windows.

I take it that your aunt doesn't use any commercial software?
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Rich, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:55am

Re: Re:
If you are assuming I am an Apple fanboy, nothing could be further from the truth.
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Rekrul, 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:57am

Re: MS fanboys
Despite having no experience in Unix-family environments, Linux and BSD were both much easier to manage than XP.

And you can install and run all the latest games?
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Rekrul, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:00am

Why was Microsoft never charged under the CFAA? Surely if making temporary changes to a website is a felony, making major, unwanted changes to millions of computers all over the world has to qualify as some type of crime.
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TooTiredForANameToday, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:09am

Almost feel sorry for Microsoft
Small history, short story

Ballmer gets the boot per activist shareholders.

They get a new president, the guy steps into the cow patty pasture Baller created. Starts to undo over a decades worth of mismanagement by previous president, calls in Gates who had previously left Microsoft and removed himself from the board to now advise him on what to do. Gates studies the situation reaquanting himself with the tech industry and gives feedback that opening up to OpenSource and developing to other platforms would be the best route, that a single codebase for their all their platforms would be beneficial.

New president takes advise, sets it all in motion, a vocal subset of the userbase who is still flinching from the XBox One launch fiasco and thinks Microsoft is know embedded in with NSA and spying on every keystroke hates every move the new president makes, irregardless of intent or accomplishment.

Meanwhile Apple and Amazon start using a similar interface design as Windows 8/10. Subset of vocal Microsoft watchers complain about new interface. Meanwhile Apple starts to move towards single OS for platforms, no one breathes a word of complaint.

Microsoft starts to incorporate Linux utilities, incorporates Linux toolsets into Visual Studio IDE, subset of Microsoft watchers complain.

Xbox One fails to gain traction, starts to remove components and pieces from the Kinect to the work on OTA DVR functionality thinking gamers would want this, while alienating their core base of XBox One owners.

Nadella can't do right even when he listens and moves towards the userbase, he can't do right at least in the short term because he faces over a decades worth of blunders and hurdles set in place by Ballmer.

Nadella's not going to fix Windows for the vocal subset of people that want to see Microsoft fail but then again, that's not the target audience.

My question to Nadella, who is the target audience for Windows? Has the model changed that the users of Windows are no longer the consumer and are now the product? If so, who is buying the product, the goverment, ad agencies?
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Chuck, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:15am

Win2k3 For Lyfe
Windows Server 2003 Enterprise Edition is still the absolute best version of Windows ever made. (An argument could be made for Windows 2000 Advanced Server, too.) I only wish it had USB 3.0 support. If it did, I'd stick with it until at least 2025.

I only mention this because, truth be told, there's not a single feature added to Windows since 2003 that a typical end user gives a s**t about. Literally not one. All the bloat added in Vista, compounded in Windows 7 (which ran faster despite actually being more bloated. Kudos to whichever engineer optimized that hot mess.) and now turned into an even-more-bloated tablet OS. If I wanted a tablet, it would run Android. I run Windows on things that specifically aren't tablets.

I guess my point is this is all because Microsoft, like most other software companies, just couldn't leave well enough alone. I get it. It's their business model. They HAVE to release a new version every couple years or they quit turning a profit.

But would it really have been all that bad if they had just said "no phone support for Server 2003 after 2013, but we'll keep patching it for eternity." How hard could it have really been to patch that? Two dudes in a dark corner of the cube farm could've handled this on their own, couldn't they?

Oh well. The peak of computing will always be 2003-2004. It has been all feature bloat, and thus all downhill, from there.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:17am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think you missed an in joke, as Arch is well known for requiring a degree of technical knowledge to install.

One a more serious note, where do you draw the line between a manual, and an instructional book? In my opinion, it is reasonable for a manual to assume basic knowledge and competence at the task the software is meant for, and its job is to detail the capabilities and choices made by the implementer. Any other assumption leads to a bulky document that is mainly instructional material, and that probably fall between two stools, not being a complete enough instruction book, and too verbose and difficult to find details in to be of much use as a manual.
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BentFranklin (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:20am

Re: Re: MS fanboys
Are games so important you'll let yourself be pwned in real life?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, there is always Gentoo, or for the serious masochist, Linux from scratch.
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Ninja (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:08am

Re: Re: Re: MS fanboys
Wrong question. Considering the link you shared in the chat you should be the first one not dismissing games as something unimportant.

I share his feeling somehow. I love how Micro$haft pushed people to develop alternatives to Directx (Vulcan if memory serves) because of their obnoxious practices for instance. I love how Wine(x) lets you play games designed for Windows on Linux. Because they don't render my vast library of games that are mostly made for Windows only completely useless along with the significative amount of money I spent on them.

I like when Windows dominance is chipped away exactly because I like games and I want them to be available to better platforms. However, while it doesn't happen, I'd like Microsoft to stop pulling these assholish acts just because they can. I'd like to have a less intrusive, more controllable OS without having to shift to Linux and forfeit possible awesome games. It's virtually the same with geoblocking and use of copyrights to screw streaming. Are movies and shows so important that we'll let ourselves be pwned in real life?

Think about it.
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Ninja (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:20am

Re: Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
Honestly, the regular user that just e-mails, visits sites and uses text/slides/spreadsheets software don't need Windows or commercial software. Not anymore.
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John Fenderson (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:26am

Re: Almost feel sorry for Microsoft
Meh. Microsoft has been a bad actor in the industry for so many decades that I have a serious problem trying to imagine anything that would make me feel sorry for them.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:54am

Ready for the tin foil hat with me, anyone?
Am I the only one to wonder if the government is involved in this? What if Microsoft is under some super secret mandate to push out this ultimate spyware so the NSA can search anyone's computer any time? And it would not just be targeting suspects or even just brown people. We know their history of "collect it all" They are building that massive new data center. Do you think they need all that for just metadata? You can store metadata on tens of thousands of people in just a few gigs. The terms of service on 10 say they can search through all your files and turn you in if they choose. What if the copyright moguls get involved. They could claim that someone has too many music files or TV episodes to have purchased them and the next thing you know they are kicking down your door. What if the 13 "privacy" screens are just an empty facade and everything still stays turned on including your microphone and webcam? That would be the NSA's wet dream to have access to all that! Microsoft will not wait as long as they did with XP to end support for 7 & 8. Software companies could be pushed to issue updates or new versions that make them incompatible unless you update. I still have an old XP laptop that will not let me install most programs out now. I keep it because I lost several programs I still use when I went to 7. Microsoft could push hard to make 7 & 8 just as obsolete to smoke out the holdouts. They REALLY want everyone on 10. Let's just hope it is for all the revenue they hope to gain and not something more nefarious!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 12:06pm

Personally, I was looking forward to Windows 10 and planned to eventually get it once enough people had used and reviewed it that I could trust it wasn't another Vista or Windows 8. But even though people seem to like it, I refuse to get it now on principle, simply because Microsoft has been pushing the update so hard and with such shady tactics. What is Microsoft hiding that causes them to behave like freaking malware vendors?
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David, 29 Jun 2016 @ 12:30pm

Re: Microsoft blames the end user
"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing"

No motherfuker it was intrusive malware trying to take control of MY hardware. Nobody was confused at all. When you click an "X" and it proceeds with an install that's trickery. That's malware. That's confusing.

Hit the pause button. What was that last sentence? "That's confusing." See? You actually agree with the newspeak.

What you actually want to say here is "deliberately misleading". Which is a proper subset of "confusing".
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 2:30pm

"Decline Free Offer" still installs windows 10, it just debits $200 from your bank.....
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 2:33pm

Re: Win2k3 For Lyfe
Nothing added since Windows 2000?

Plug and play?

USB 2.0 support without having to install 'addon packs'?

Wifi?

1gb ethernet?

64bit code to allow you to use more than 3gb of memory?

directx 12?

GPU support?

Multiple core support?

Hardware virtualization?

Load Balancing?

SSDs?

Flash drives larger than 256mb?
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istanbul promosyon, 29 Jun 2016 @ 2:37pm

İstanbul Promosyon Ürünleri: Ürün ve hizmet sunumu gerçekleştirmekte olan firma ve markalar tarafından hedef müşteri kitleleri üzerine etkinlik sağlayabilme ve tanıtım faaliyetlerinin sürdürümünü verimlilikle gerçekleştirebilme amaçları doğrultusunda başvurulmakta olan İstanbul promosyon ürünleri genel olarak 6 kategori üzerinden gerçekleştirilmektedir.

Ürün Numunesi
Sektör içerisindeki faaliyetsel süreci ürün sunumu ve pazarlama şeklinde gerçekleştirmekte olan firmalar; yeni çıkarttıkları ürünü minimal boyutlarda müşterileri kitlelerine promosyon olarak sunmaktadırlar. Böylelikle potansiyel müşteri kitleleri hem firmayı tanımış hem de ürünü denemiş olur.

Ofis Malzemeleri
Günün ve çalışma sahasının büyük bir bölümünün sürdürülmekte olduğu alanlar olan ofislerde kullanım gören pek çok kırtasiye ürünü mevcuttur. Promosyon çalışmalarını bu malzemeler üzerinden gerçekleştirmek oldukça verimli olacaktır. Zira ofislerin kurumsal nitelikte müşteri potansiyeli barındırmakta olduğu gibi her bir çalışan da aynı zamanda bireysel potansiyel müşteridir. Ofis ürünleri üzerinde firmanızın tanıtımının gerçekleştirilmesi kitlesel açıdan oldukça stratejiktir. Promosyon ofis malzemeleri; defter, ajanda, klasör, sunum dosyası, evrak çantası, kalem, kalemlik, zımba, delgeç, masa takvimi, masa saati, mausepad, bloknot.

Kırtasiye Ürünleri
Kırtasiye ürünleri üzerinde gerçekleştirilen promosyon çalışmaları; ofis malzemeleri ile kısmen benzerlik taşımaktadır. Farkı ise bireysel müşterilere de sunulmasıdır. Promosyon kırtasiye ürünleri; defter, ajanda, dosya, bloknot, kalem, kalemlik, delgeç, zımba, mausepad.

Deko-Aksesuar Ürünleri
Yaşamsal alanlar içersinde sabit ve işlevsel olarak yer alan tanıtım ürünleridir. Genellikle ev ve ofis için tasarlanır. Promosyon deko-aksesuar ürünleri; kol/ masa/duvar saati, takvim, plaket,bayrak/flama, biblo.

Giyim / Aksesuar Ürünleri
İnsanların gündelik hayatları içerisinde tercih edebilecekleri şekilde İstanbul promosyon ürünleri sunan firmalar işlevsellik algısını karşılamaktadırlar. Fakat bu ürünlerin tasarım ve dizaynı oldukça önemlidir. Zira abartılı ve uyumsuz renklerden bir araya gelmiş bir logonun yer almakta olduğu bir giyim ürününün firmaya herhangi bir getirisi olmadığı gibi imaj adına da oldukça önemli bir hasardır. Promosyon ürünlerinizde yer alan yazı ve logo tasarımları insanların üzerlerinde taşımaktan hoşlanacakları türde olmalı. Sosyal medyayı da kullanarak eğlenceli bir etkinlik ile bu faaliyeti gerçekleştirebilirsiniz. Promosyon giyim/aksesuar ürünleri; çanta, T-shirt, terlik, şapka, telefon kılıfı, bileklik.

Diğer
Yukarıda bahsi geçmekte olan 5 kategorinin dışında faaliyet sürdürülen alan ile doğru orantılı olarak kendi meslek branşlarına ilişkin promosyon ürün tasarımı gerçekleştirmekte olan firmalar da mevcuttur. Promosyon diğer ürünler; kozmetik- parfüm, temizlik – ıslak mendil, teknoloji- mause. İstanbul Ürünleri Promosyon
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 2:59pm

"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing,"

Just once I'd like a large corporation to just come out and really admit what they did instead of a non apology apology or like they did here and still blame the consumer for the problems that were entirely the fault of the corporation.

It should have gone something like "Hey, we here at Microsoft have been total ass-hats for months and thought we could still trick and force all of you to upgrade to our new crappy OS, we are sorry for everything that we did. We have now finally listened to all of you that we have pissed off and changed it so you actually have a choice to accept, schedule for later or permanently decline the upgrade."
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:12pm

And still with the "updates" that are pretty much a complete re-install, with no choice to avoid it. It's lovely when you are limited expensive data and trying to do some serious work with time constraints. Especially when the update fails, which seems to be most of the time. On machines that shipped with, and are certified for, Windows 10. Oh, and the insane known bugs that remain unfixed. Start menu disappeared? Grey screen? User account destroyed? Yeah, we know.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 3:54pm

Too big to care..
Unfortunately $10,000 is a drop in the bucket. I'm waiting for the lawsuit due to their forced blind patches that takes down a bunch of computers at a huge corporation that has enough clout to smack the arrogance right off of Micro$oft's face.

"Since we introduced a new upgrade experience for Windows 10, we've received feedback that some of our valued customers found it confusing,"

No, they were the customers that knew what you were up to and were downright insulted and pissed!
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Uriel-238 (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:39pm

Can Mr. Bull please write a song about his experiences?
Just saying how awesome that would be.
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Uriel-238 (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 5:44pm

"All your data are belong to us"
Since the all your data are belong to us stuff is in the TOS, including and if we find anything remotely illegal and we don't like you we will TOTALLY narc on you.

Yeah, they're pretty much sleeping with the NSA and FBI and anyone else who pays for their crime subscription service.
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techflaws (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 9:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Wow, I wonder why people are apprehensive about updating to the next version...

Probably because Micros~1 is forcing people using modern processors like Intel's Skylake Cores to upgrade since Win 7/8.1 will be challenging for WiFi [sic], graphics, security, and more. Yeah, right.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:02pm

Re:
Because Windows 10 IS freaking malware!
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Jun 2016 @ 10:48pm

"...clicking X automatically began the update process, much like malware:..."

No, not "much like malware", EXACTLY like malware, because that's EXACTLY what it is. Furthermore, if there's anyone left at this point, who cannot see through this charade, and realize it's a hastily-implemented, state-sanctioned act of foisting telemetry* code on as many machines as possible to "supplement" the data loss incurred with the end of a certain telephone meta-data program - you're blind as a bat.

Certainly, you couldn't be so naive as to think that the greatest common denominators with regard to computing somehow exist "independently" of the federal government given all you've seen and heard from Snowden, Binney, Tice, et all?! The only ones denying these well documented connections are the companies themselves, those monetarily dependent upon said companies, their hardcore fan-boys, or the occasional net-savvy dis-informants on payroll.

*the only code common across the board, from Win10 itself, to the updates that bring Win10 "functionality" (aka: data-rape) to Win7, 8, 8.1.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:21pm

Re: Re:
The guy with the trendy avatar tried to help him, and he ended up working on it himself & found a way to make it work.

I had linked him a webpage where someone reported a similar problem, a MS support person said do these things, they did those things and posted that they didn;t work... and then an MS support person suggested doing the exact same thing posted the first time then started ignoring him.
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PaulT (profile), 29 Jun 2016 @ 11:50pm

Re: Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
Most ordinary people don't need it. Sure, if you depend on Photoshop and AutoCAD or have to play the latest games, Linux isn't necessarily for you and you'll struggle to find acceptable FOSS alternatives.

For the vast majority of daily use for normal people, it's more than adequate to stick with open source solutions.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2016 @ 2:17am

Re: Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
Most people cannot afford a wide range of commercial software, and switching to Linux gives them an opportunity to explore the application of software in areas where they cannot justify the outlay for commercial software.
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tracyanne, 30 Jun 2016 @ 5:43am

Re:
Can anyone be blamed for not trusting Microsoft. They would have to be the least trustworthy company I've seen in the last 25 years.
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BentFranklin (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 6:59am

Re:
Ahem. I'm still waiting to see if M$ will deal with the lack of control of updates on W10.

They will not change that because it's the entire reason for Windows 10.
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Bergman (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 9:15am

Re:
I've been a long-time Microsoft customer because I liked the more hands-on, user's choice nature of the operating system, while at the same time having the option to let the system run itself (an option many Linux builds weren't so great at).

I avoided Apple for years because of their systems being their way or the highway. But if Microsoft is going to force me to do everything their way or not at all? Well, Apple makes better products of that nature.

I've owned Windows PCs since my very first computer that ran MS-DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1, but my next computer will almost certainly be some variety of Apple after the crap Microsoft has pulled lately.

And I've stopped recommending Microsoft products to people, both friends & family and for work. When the company and product you've trusted for decades starts being indistinguishable from malware, it's time to find a company you CAN trust.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Jun 2016 @ 9:37am

Re: Re:
If you think Apple is any better than Microsoft, I have this bridge for sale.Also, when did you last look at any Linux Distribution, as outside of the hardcore systems like Arch and Gentoo, the modern distros are easy to run. If you go for a rolling release Distro, like Debian Testing, Manjaro, or PCLinuxos, and not have to worry about upgrading between versions. I can vouch for those, as they are my daily drivers, Integrated into a desktpp cluster via Synergy and Gigolo.
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Rekrul, 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:28am

Re: Re: Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
I remember a funny incident a few years ago. I was reading one of the newsgroups devoted to newsreaders and Usenet in general and there was a user there complaining about how much he hated Windows and how he looked forward to dumping it and getting a Mac (not Linux, I know, but the principle still applies).

He finally got his Mac and was thrilled with it and with not having to deal with Windows any more. He then immediately started asking for good Mac alternatives to whatever newsreader he was previously using under Windows. After trying virtually every newsreader program for the Mac, including cross-platform ones that are also available for Linux, he had to install some kind of emulation option to be able to run the Windows program that he was using because nothing he tried had all the features he wanted.

There are several programs that I use on an almost daily basis that aren't available for anything but Windows. My media player of choice is Media Player Classic - Home Cinema. For downloading from Usenet, I use AltBinz. For text editing I use Textpad 4.7.3. I've looked at some of the freeware, cross-platform programs like VLC and various downloaders and text editors and none of them were as easy to use or had all the features I wanted.

Not to mention that I want to occasionally be able to install and play games which are only available for Windows.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Windows is especially well designed or have any great love for it, but it's where the majority of the software support is.
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Padpaw (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:30am

I think I will rely on the workarounds before I trust microsoft on this being accurate and not just another hidden way to force a windows 10 upgrade.
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Padpaw (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:34am

Re:
The question would be, Will they still try and trick users into installing windows 10 when it costs money?
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Padpaw (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:36am

Re: Re:
Have you tried the classic shell program? Not sure if it works for windows 10, but i have it on windows 8.1

Works like a dream got rid of that stupid cluttered app screen and replaced it with the classic functionality of old.
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Padpaw (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:42am

Re: Re:
don't remind me, I had windows 7 and after 6 months of refusing windows 8 "Free install updates" it decided to install itself since I kept saying no.
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John Fenderson (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 12:26pm

Re: Re: Re:
It works for Win 10.
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 12:28pm

Re: Can Mr. Bull please write a song about his experiences?
I tweeted at him, we will see...
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OldGeezer (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 2:07pm

Re:
The only way to be sure is to first install the GWX Control Panel app. It deletes most of the Windows 10 folders but I found there were a few left including some .exe files. Windows would not let you delete them even if you went into the properties and change permissions. I used a program called Unlocker I installed years ago and got rid of them. Unfortunately the new version this program contains adware that Defender flags as a Trojan. My suggestion is to boot up on a flash drive with Linux. Do a search for anything containing gwx in the folder name and delete them. Change your update settings to check for updates but let me choose whether to download or install them. Before you update click on more information for anything that doesn't say it is a security update and hide anything related in any way to the upgrade. Windows will keep trying to put them back especially that damned Get Windows 10 nagware. To get rid of the 10 spyware they are trying add to 7 and 8 I suggest this site:
https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/3g7hr0/removing_telemetry_from_windows_7_and_8x/
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Uriel-238 (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 6:46pm

Reddit on removing Microsoft telemetry from Win7 and Win8
Thank you for the link!
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OldGeezer (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 8:01pm

Re: Reddit on removing Microsoft telemetry from Win7 and Win8
I don't trust Microsoft not to sneak something in under the guise of a security update but for now the info on this page is your best hope of limiting them. I am just waiting for there to be some Snowden type leak that Windows 10 is a complete government plot. As bad as what we already know is, I suspect that it may be much worse. Too many people will love the idea that they can voice command their computer to care that their microphone is always on. If they follow the "recommended" settings they will sign on to their computer through a live account which means Microsoft has your password and full administrative privileges. It won't matter if you encrypt files, they can still see them. On installation you have to jump through hoops to use a local account. Unless you happen to not notice a very small button you will also find out your Firefox or Chrome is changed to their new version of Explorer and your search engine will be Bing. Other file associations will be changed to their products and they make it difficult to change them back. They will think that it is really neat that Windows will remind you of something you need to pick up at the grocery store. This means that Microsoft (and probably the government) knows where you are at all times. I laughed when I got an email warning that time for the free update is running out and then it will cost $119. As much as they have been trying to force 10 on us there will never be a time they will not want everybody using it. A friend of mine has a laptop that every time he boots up he has to wait out a partial installation and only after he declines the TOS will it let him load 8.1. He never reserved a copy or clicked anything to OK this. All he did was leave automatic updates on. I tried to warn him to install the GWX Control Panel but it is probably too late for that now.
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PaulT (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:38pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: 'sell itself'... LOL!
"it's where the majority of the software support is"

I disagree there. There's a huge number of programs that are cross-platform, and even more that are only available on Linux. Games, sure that's always a sticking point and a catch-22 situation, but utility software is very well supported unless you need specific commercial titles.

But, you seem to have got yourself into a little rut with the programs you use. I can't think of anything that TextPad does, for example, that numerous Linux or general FOSS editors can't do. Perhaps it's just the look and feel you're used to? Ditto the media player, I can't think of anything that it does that VLC doesn't on a glance at their webpage, but perhaps I'm missing something.

But, you seem to have specific needs. Half your comments are about newsreaders and, let's face it, the vast majority of people don't use such things. That's fine, but don't pretend that Linux isn't massively well supported on a software level, other than a few commercial niches.
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PaulT (profile), 30 Jun 2016 @ 11:39pm

Re: Re:
"at the same time having the option to let the system run itself (an option many Linux builds weren't so great at)"

I'd be interested in knowing what you mean by "run itself", which distros you tried and how long ago.
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David, 1 Jul 2016 @ 12:17am

Re: Freee offer ends July 29?
There will never be a time they won't want you to install a system that millions will click the "recommended" settings that will hijack your browser, search engine and file associations to their products and steal billions in ad revenue from all the other companies.

You got that one right. The system will keep trying to upgrade to Windows 10 in any underhanded manner it can think of even after the deadline. It's just that when it succeeds, it will lock down the system until you present Microsoft with proof of payment.
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David, 1 Jul 2016 @ 12:33am

Re: Re: Win2k3 For Lyfe

Nothing added since Windows 2000?

Plug and play?

Wasn't that already the great selling argument for Windows 95 over Windows 3.11? It was always overhyped. I remember that when I migrated dual-boot systems with RedHat Linux 3.03 it was a matter of removing the hard disk from one laptop and putting it into another, reboot and you were going. Took me days to get the dual-boot Windows partition to run because the BIOS disk geometry translation was different. RedHat didn't mind, but boy did Windows mind. Once I managed to boot, it was days of hunting for drivers.

Yes, Windows got better in that respect over time but still always wanted hardware specific drivers to get really working. They were almost good when they decided in Windows XP to require mandatory reregistration whenever you put your disk/system in a different computer.

Plug&Play was almost working technically so they decided to sabotage it by tying the system to hardware.

I stopped bothering getting the dual-boot system to boot into Windows after that. A few hardware changes later, I did not even bother to create a Windows partition any more.

If they don't want me to run Windows enough to not shoot me in the foot for it, I won't. I need the option to move my system to a different computer immediately in cases of failure or even just something as stupid as hardware incompatible with an LCD projector for some reason (yes, I did actually move my hard disk and thus my whole system personality on somebody else's laptop to save a presentation, and this would not have worked with Windows).
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 1 Jul 2016 @ 12:49pm

Re: Re:
Real men used Dos 3.1
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Moby (profile), 1 Jul 2016 @ 7:36pm

Nexr
After they upgraded my laptop without even asking me, I ditched windows completely. I won't be going back anytime soon.
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OldGeezer (profile), 1 Jul 2016 @ 9:18pm

Re: Nexr
I would gladly go to Linux if several important programs I use would not be lost. A few of them offer a Linux version but many of those require you you to pay for them again. My son hates Microsoft with a passion but he still keeps a Windows on a virtual machine to run programs that he can't on Linux.
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John Fenderson (profile), 3 Jul 2016 @ 8:23am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Which is an excellent reason for Windows users to avoid the most recent Intel processor offerings.
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John Fenderson (profile), 3 Jul 2016 @ 8:29am

Re: Re:
Apple lost me in 1984 when they turned their back on the hobbyist community with the Macintosh.
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Richard Stallman, 4 Jul 2016 @ 6:02pm

WOW! No one mentioned GNU/Linux.
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PaulT (profile), 4 Jul 2016 @ 11:32pm

Re:
CTRL+F - 44 instances of Linux found.

Sorry Richard, the FSF nomenclature is commonly shortened to remove your acronym from the phrase. I hope you can deal with that.
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