Whether Or Not Russians Hacked DNC Means Nothing Concerning How Newsworthy The Details Are
from the sony-hack-redux dept
As you almost certainly know by now, on Friday Wikileaks released a bunch of hacked DNC emails just before the Democratic Presidential convention kicked off. While Wikileaks hasn't quite said where it got the emails, speculation among many quickly pointed to Russian state sponsored hackers. That's because of the revelation last month of two sets of hackers breaching the DNC's computer system and swiping (at the very least) opposition research on Donald Trump. Various cybersecurity research firms, starting with CrowdStrike, which was hired by the DNC to investigate, pointed the finger at the Russians.Of course, whether or not you believe that may depend on how credible you find the big cybersecurity firms like CrowdStrike, FireEye and Mandiant (the big names that always pop up in situations like this). For what it's worth, these guys have something of a vested interest in playing up the threat of big hacks from nation-state level hackers. For a good analysis of why this finger-pointing may be less than credible, I recommend two articles by Jeffrey Carr, one noting that these firms come from a history of "faith-based attribution" whereby they are never held accountable for being wrong -- and another highlighting serious questions about the designation of Russia as being responsible for this particular hack (he notes that some of the research appeared to come pre-arrived at that conclusion, and then ignored any evidence to the contrary).
Still, the claim that the data came from the Russians has become something of a story itself. And, of course, who did the hack and got the info is absolutely a news story. But it's an entirely separate one from whether or not the leaked emails contain anything useful or newsworthy. And yet, because this is the peak of political silly season, some are freaking out and claiming that anyone reporting on these emails "has been played" by Putin and Russia. Leaving aside the fact that people like to claim that Russia's behind all sorts of politicians that some don't like, that should be entirely unrelated to whether or not the story is worth covering.
And yet, we already have stories arguing that "Putin weaponized Wikileaks to influence" the US election. That's ridiculous on multiple levels. Wikileaks releases all kinds of stuff, whether you agree with them or not. And the idea that this will actually impact the election seems... unlikely. Is the (not at all surprising) fact that the DNC is fully of cronyism and favoritism really suddenly going to shift voters to Trump? Of course, Wikileaks implicitly threatening someone with legal action for saying there's a connection between Russia and Wikileaks is pretty ridiculous as well.
To some extent, this reminds me of some people who freaked out over the Sony Pictures hack, a while back. There the culprit blamed was North Korea, a claim that at least many people remained skeptical of. But, even so, there were some (including Sony) who tried to argue that no one should report on the contents of the emails because it would somehow support the North Korean regime's goals.
That's laughable.
Yes, whoever is behind such hacks is a story. But it does nothing to lessen or impact whether or not the leaked emails themselves are newsworthy. Arguing against anyone publishing stories about them just because they may have begun with Russian hackers is just a way of desperately trying to block embarrassing stories about the DNC from getting published.
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Filed Under: dnc, dnc hack, hack, journalism, news, russians
Companies: wikileaks
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So Right
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Re: So Right
zzzzzz..... skunth... what?
It was obvious a couple of centuries ago. Too bad a lot of people were too stupid to see it until now, heck some still do not see it.
In fact, George Washington... the very fucking first and most badass president we have ever had talked about it in his farewell address.
The very idea of a political party IS to corrupt and rig elections. They also drive Americans apart and do no good for the nation.
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Re: So Right
Good thing the primaries weren't rigged though. Unlike this year when even the guy WON the RNC primaries says that they were rigged.
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Re: So Right
By the way, if you have followed the democratic primary process you would not be surprised by this. The democratic caucuses were absolute farces of, if not illegal, highly immoral obstructionism against Sanders.
This presidential cycle has been quite a farce: Trump is completely empty politically and an asshole. Clinton has got some very dirty political past and is a criminal (moral, if not legal!). None of them would be even remotely electable in any other circumstance!
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Re: Re: So Right
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He did very well in the caucuses, it's the primaries where Clinton won.
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Re: So Right
Umm... No, just No, the emails reveal no such thing.
The fact is Hillary Clinton beat Bernie Sanders by 3 million votes out of over 23 million votes cast. See the below link if you don't believe me.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/
The DNC didn't even run the elections in the first place either, so they couldn't rig the outcome by removing Bernie Sander voters or adding Hillary Clinton votes.
Plus even if the DNC changed the delegate selection rules to one of the following
-The same as the GOP's rules.
-Winner takes all state-wide.
-Winner takes all by congressional district.
-No Super Delegates
-Super Delegates bound to vote for whoever wins their state
-Super Delegates bound to vote for whoever wins their congressional district
Bernie Sanders STILL loses.
If you were to give Sanders the Democratic nomination you'd be disenfranchising the majority of voters who cast a ballot in the Democratic primary this cycle.
Should the DNC have been a lot more neutral and impartial then they were? Yes definitely. But that's a FAR cry from them rigging the elections, or claims that Hillary Clinton would have lost the nomination without them.
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Re: Re: So Right
The DNC fed negative stories to national media outlets to sway voters. I've seen a whole bunch of posts from individuals over the last several months in which they said something to the effect of, "I liked Bernie Sanders, but [insert DNC/Clinton campaign-originating article here]." This undisclosed (though obvious) collusion with supposedly neutral media outlets put Bernie at a significant disadvantage. You may or may not be swayed by media reports, but a lot of people are. The whole fiction of chair throwing at the NV convention is still being passed along as truth to make Sanders' supporters look bad.
You're ignoring that the DNC may not run every primary and caucus, but they do set the tone for the state party committees. Regardless of whether there was any voting fraud, the fact that allegations of fraud were ignored when the DNC got its desired outcome in favor of Clinton is another advantage Clinton got from it. The answer to any dissenting complaints was almost always, "move on, nothing to see here."
DWS specifically helped Clinton in the much-criticized scheduling of the debates. Even allowing a former Clinton campaign co-chair pretend to be neutral was an inherent flaw within the judgment of the DNC. The fact that Clinton has now given DWS another position on her campaign shows Clinton has no problem with DWS because her actions helped Clinton.
Even when rules were followed by the DNC and the state committees, the rules are rigged to support the entrenched powers, so the system is rigged by the rules already enforcing an inequitable system. They are rigged by nature, regardless of outcome. They'd still be rigged even if Bernie won the nomination.
It's entirely possible the Clinton may have gotten more of the vote had there been a neutral DNC and a neutral media and an equitable and open primary/caucus system in every state, but you can't actually know that, so claiming it as a certainty is just opinion.
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No one is even trying anymore.
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At some point the people will get scared and demand we do something about the big old scary superbear and at that time our elected officials will have to face the lies they keep spinning.
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the commies are coming
and whats in those emal how much the establishment hated bernie and didnt want him ...now they gone handed it to trump..id vote for trump over her any day....
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Re: the commies are coming
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Re: Re: the commies are coming
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Re: Re: Re: the commies are coming
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Who to choose?
If they don't, they wont.
http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/21/poll-troops-prefer-gary-johnson-over-trump-clinton/
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Re: the commies are coming
In that light, its actually a kind of brilliant reaction. Disgusting of course, but brilliant.
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If you can't fight the message, fight the messenger
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Re: If you can't fight the message, fight the messenger
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Re: Re: If you can't fight the message, fight the messenger
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Re: Re: Re: If you can't fight the message, fight the messenger
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I don't care if the email leaks came from Satan himself. If the content is factual, it's relevant.
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Assuming that Trump publicly agrees with this, I hope that someone will ask him if he'll pardon Snowden.
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and then...
Those ought to be Really interesting. Especially the ones from the last couple of months.
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Re: and then...
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Re: and then...
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Are you stupid?
The issue with the emails being Russian, is that they've intentionally cherry picked emails from long email chains to share.
Like that one email about Bernie's religion. It's missing the previous email, and the response to that email.
If the context was something like, "Could Bernie's religion hurt us in the general election? Maybe we should ask this question at a town hall, and see if it has a major impact on his numbers?". And then a reply email saying, "Don't be stupid, we're not going to do that" completely changes the email.
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And here's the email thread you're referring to, just so you don't continue to delude yourself that it could have been about protecting Sanders in a general election. The email thread started by Marshall saying:
It might may no difference, but for KY and WVA can we get someone to ask his belief. Does he believe in a God. He had skated on saying he has a Jewish heritage. I think I read he is an atheist. This could make several points difference with my peeps. My Southern Baptist peeps would draw a big difference between a Jew and an atheist.
https://wikileaks.org/dnc-emails/emailid/7643
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FYI - Mandiant/FireEye
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Yup. If the hackers (whoever they are) had truly wanted to influence the elections, they'd have released it a few months ago, while the primaries were still going on and there was a chance to change things.
Right now, looking at the facts of the matter, Hillary has no chance, embarrassing leaks or no embarrassing leaks.
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The people who aren't voting for Trump tend to hate him. There are a huge number of them. The people who are, though, tend to be very enthusiastic about it and honestly believe he's the change that America needs.
I could point to a few dozen other factors, but I really don't need to. Based on that alone, Hillary has no chance.
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Sounds like you haven't thought about the electoral system much. Even if Trump has more supporters and more enthusiastic supporters, it still depends on where the voters are. He is going to lose big in New York, California, and Texas (Hispanic vote). Lots of electoral college votes in those states alone. I think he'll have a tough go in Florida at best. His support among blacks is right around zero in some polls, which makes some other states challenging for him. He has basically no organization at all, no TV advertising, and no ground game.
Basically his only support is among conservative whites, particularly the less educated, which is a smaller group than ever before, and the less educated vote less than the more educated. Those voters that he might turn out to vote for him in large numbers who haven't been voting recently mostly live in deep red states that will go for whoever the Republican is no matter what. So they won't make a difference.
"At the moment, [Trump] is running on par with Romney’s 17-point margin with white voters during his race against Barack Obama. It was not enough for Romney; Trump would need more, and though he succeeds with white voters without a college degree, he is doing worse than his predecessor among those with a diploma."
He has a steep uphill climb to win this. I won't say he has no chance, but in my opinion your assessment is way off.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/missing-white-voters-might-help-trump-but-less-so-where-he-n eeds-it/
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/11/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-disaffected-vot ers
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You'd be hard-pressed to find a more committed far-left ideologue than Michael Moore, but even he says the numbers add up:
That was point 1 of his recent article, "5 reasons why Trump will win." Points 2-4 basically cover the same ground as the point I made above, that Trump has a decided edge in constituency enthusiasm. Don't underestimate this; it means he's likely to win the voter turnout game hands-down!
And point 5 is that he represents real change. Remember how many people voted for Obama's "hope and change" and ended up getting 8 years of more of the same? Hillary's the ultimate insider, but whatever else you may say about Donald Trump, he's anything but "politics as usual!" (Sure, he represents a horrible, chaotic, destructive change for the worse, but he undeniably represents real change, and that's good enough for a lot of people, and a lot of voters!)
I don't like it, but I think Moore's right more than he's wrong with these points.
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Don't underestimate this; it means he's likely to win the voter turnout game hands-down!
Sure, but it may not matter. He could turn out every single person in states like Alabama, Arkansas, and Kansas, and it would make not one bit of difference, because that wouldn't get him a single additional electoral college vote. Where is he going to turn out these additional voters? If it's not in swing states, it's irrelevant (unfortunately - basically most of the votes in the US just don't matter, which is terrible).
More about how the states aren't favoring Trump (slightly outdated): http://www.npr.org/2016/06/26/483452230/npr-battleground-map-florida-pennsylvania-move-in-opposite-d irections
Polling currently has Clinton winning 288-191. So he'd have to pick up 79 more votes.
http://www.npr.org/2016/07/18/486386980/npr-battleground-map-ahead-of-the-conventions-where-do es-the-race-stand
"A presidential candidate needs 270 Electoral Votes to become president. In other words, if Clinton wins just the states leaning in her direction, she would be president without needing any of the toss up states — Colorado, Iowa, North Carolina, Ohio or Pennsylvania."
http://www.npr.org/2016/06/26/483452230/npr-battleground-map-florida-pennsylvania-move -in-opposite-directions?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=politics&utm_medium=social&u tm_term=nprnews
OK yes I get my news from NPR. :-p
And you're probably right about Texas. Eventually it will be blue but not this time. Do you still claim Clinton has "no chance" or was that hyperbole?
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?
Aka "The end justifies the means". Okay. Let's apply the same concept to other typical TD stories:
"Whether or not parallel reconstruction is a bad thing means nothing when the bad guy obviously deserved to get locked up because terrorism/children/drugs/walking-while-black"
"Whether or not the governent concealed evidence from the defence means nothing when the defendant was obviously innocent as we now discover after he's been rotting in jail 30 years"
"Whether or not the NSA spied on everyone means nothing concerning how newsworthy the leaked juicy details are about my boss/mother/ex-gf/children/congresscritter."
"Whether or not DMCA takedowns are valid means nothing when they get all that nasty free-speech stuff off the internet as well as all that Shakespeare crap (because, obviously, I hated my English teacher).
I think I'm getting the hang of it.
(No horse in this race before anyone says anything, I am a furriner)
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Re: ?
It has nothing to do with 'Ends justify the means' thinking and everything to do with 'the source doesn't really matter so long as the contents are legitimate'.
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Re: ?
No, not saying the ends justify the means. Simply pointing out that whether or not the info is newsworthy doesn't depend on who released the info or their motives.
The other examples you cite are totally different and all have to do with actual due process.
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Re: ?
Yeah.... no.
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Re: ?
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Perhaps Thiel + Palantir ?
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"Don't be conned by them, be conned by us!"
Leaving out of course the fact that those that don't cover the leak because it supposedly came from those dirty commies is being played by the DNC. As the article and numerous others have noted, content matters, who it came from not so much. It's a laughable attempt to try and deflect attention away from said contents, and disappointing that anyone bought it, but I suppose politics are politics...
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This is news?!?! A breaking story...LOL
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Ummm...no
*Plenty of credible evidence points at the Russians. Where is your alleged evidence that does not?
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Re: Ummm...no
Did you read my post? I said both things may be a story, but my post is specifically responding to the allegations that no one should report on the emails because it aids the Russians.
*Plenty of credible evidence points at the Russians. Where is your alleged evidence that does not?
Linked in the story that you apparently didn't read. Though I agree that it's likely the Russians, there are still some questions remaining.
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Re: Re: Ummm...no
- The amount of money available to finance a hack like this is enormous.
- The DNC clearly did not and does not now understand even the basics of how to operate its IT securely. I'm looking at a job ad for a DNC security expert and one of the things it requires is AWS. Um...no. Because -- see comment above about money -- any competent attacker is already waiting there. They've already hacked every plausible cloud provider OR they've simply purchased some of the personnel. The DNC should be setting up their own dedicated hardware, with a lot of attention to its physical security.
- Given the money available, and given that the DNC doesn't know what it's doing, it would hardly take a master hacker with the backing of a major government to pull off this hack. One disgruntled insider could easily do it, for example.
- Attribution is not a solved problem in security.
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Re: Re: Re: Ummm...no
Are you saying it's possible to hack Amazon once, and then have access to every current and future EC2 virtual machine ever created? If so, that sounds extremely implausible and like you probably don't know much about AWS architecture. Or if not, what do you mean?
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But:
I would say, it sounds as if someone cherry picked some emails? Political motive, to sew up votes? Create distention? Nah! Who? Assange is a puppet. So who?
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Of course it's a weaponized leak!
Leaking damaging things is part of the stock in trade of politics, domestic or foreign. Here they're just indulging the the 5-year-old's classic whine that 'he hit me back, that's not fair!'
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Depends --
(Just be glad you don't need a catheter.)
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Who did the hacking isn't the important part
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/all-signs-point-to-russia-being-behind-the-dnc-hack#
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Re: Who did the hacking isn't the important part
That should tell you something.
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I Doubt Any Hacking Actually Happened Anyway
This isn't like picking a lock, this is like telling the home alone toddler you have candy. Don't call it being hacked if you're too dumb to use a computer.
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Cherry Pick Much?
As for Russia, as the day has proceeded there is much more evidence being presented that Russia was indeed involved, and that the Trump campaign has some unmistakable ties to Putin via Paul Manafort or the Trump organization itself which is highly leveraged to Russian Banks since he cant get financing. You site Jeffery Carr yet his reporting has received a thorough takedown from Josh Marshall. You should check the links and generally do a less sloppy job of reporting than you did on this one (something I will say you rarely do...but you are way off here).
Link for original reporting
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-putin-russia-connections
The response to Carr
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-trump-and-putin-thing-a-detailed-response
Josh Marshall has been on this from the beginning questioning the cozy Russian ties. You'd do well to read both
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Re: Cherry Pick Much?
FWIW, the links you point to are a takedown of a totally different article by Jeffrey Carr, and not the two links I gave.
I made no mention of Marshall's argument because that's totally unrelated to the question of whether or not Russia was behind the hack.
Josh Marshall has been on this from the beginning questioning the cozy Russian ties. You'd do well to read both
I had read both already. Neither have any impact on this story. They are about something different.
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Re: Cherry Pick Much?
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Consequences
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Though slightly tangent to point of article
Let's see here:
DNC was hacked. Clinton campaign was hacked. Office of Personnel Management was hacked. IRS was hacked more than once. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration had websites hacked. US Postal Service was hacked. Veterans Administration was hacked, text from databreachtoday, "Since 2010, hackers from other nations, including China and perhaps Russia, have repeatedly breached Department of Veterans Affairs computers containing unencrypted data on some 20 million veterans, the chairman of a House panel said at a June 4 hearing." There's this from NBC in 2014, "Much of the State Department's unclassified email system is out of commission after "activity of concern" was detected recently, a senior official told NBC News on Sunday. It's the latest of several acknowledgments that sensitive government systems have been successfully targeted." There's this from CNN, "How the U.S. thinks Russians hacked the White House." There's this from the Wall Street Journal, "Obama administration personnel are among a larger group of people who have had their computer systems hacked in recent weeks, including journalists and academics, the officials said. Those attacked in the administration included officials working at the State Department’s Office of Iranian Affairs and its Bureau of Near Eastern Affairs." There's this from the LA Times, "Computer hackers constantly take aim at the Defense Department, and they’ve been successful a few times at defacing websites and reaching into networks where they don’t belong."
And yet the Secretary of State's private server existed in an unhackable alternate universe.
Fascinating.
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DNC Hacked but not RNC?
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Russians hacking
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