Microsoft Finally Admits Its Malware-Style Windows 10 Upgrade Sales Pitch Went Too Far

from the self-sabotage dept

Wed, Dec 28th 2016 2:48pm — Karl Bode

We've talked a lot about how Microsoft managed to shoot Windows 10 (and consumer goodwill) squarely in the foot by refusing to seriously address OS privacy concerns, and by using malware-style tactics to try and force users on older versions of Windows to upgrade. While Microsoft's decision to offer Windows 10 as a free upgrade to Windows 7 and Windows 8.1 made sense on its surface, the company repeatedly bungled the promotion by making the multi-gigabyte upgrade impossible to avoid, which was a huge problem for those on capped and metered broadband connections.

But at times Microsoft made things even worse by engaging in behavior that would make even the lowest scumware peddlers proud. Like that time the Redmond-giant began pushing Windows 10 upgrade popups that pretended to let users close the popup dialogue by pressing X, only to have that begin the upgrade anyway against the user's wishes.

Between this and the company's outright refusal to let users control how and when the operating system phoned home, Microsoft managed to take a relatively successful OS launch and turn it squarely on its head -- largely by ignoring some of the most basic principles of design, customer service, and public relations.

Now that the Windows 10 upgrade push is long gone, the company actually got close to acknowledging that its behavior went too far. Speaking on the Windows Weekly podcast, Microsoft’s Chief Marketing Officer Chris Capossela finally acknowledged that the company mishandled the entire forced upgrade (though he falls short of apologizing or addressing the parallel privacy concerns):

"We know we want people to be running Windows 10 from a security perspective, but finding the right balance where you’re not stepping over the line of being too aggressive is something we tried and for a lot of the year I think we got it right, but there was one particular moment in particular where, you know, the red X in the dialog box which typically means you cancel didn’t mean cancel.

And within a couple of hours of that hitting the world, with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far and then, of course, it takes some time to roll out the update that changes that behavior. And those two weeks were pretty painful and clearly a lowlight for us. We learned a lot from it obviously."

Except Microsoft didn't really "get it right," and users made that abundantly obvious. And whether Microsoft actually "learned a lot from it" really isn't clear, since a refusal to let users truly control how the OS works (whether it's preventing the OS from being quite so chatty or letting users dictate upgrade schedules on their own terms) has been somewhat of a recurring theme since launch. That "we know what's best for you" mentality has been bone-grafted to the company's DNA for some time, and we'll likely have to wait until Windows 11 to see if any lessons were actually learned.

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Filed Under: push, upgrade, windows 10
Companies: microsoft

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Coises (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 2:54pm

Listening systems

with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far

Would that be your systems for listening to your users, or for listening in on your users?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:00pm

Obligatory network quality comment

... was a huge problem for those on capped and metered broadband connections.

Nonsense. Broadband is widely deployed and far too competitive for anyone to be on a capped or metered connection if they wanted something better, and even those with artificially constrained connections have such generous allotments that sparing a few tens of gigabytes for an unwanted Operating System upgrade is a drop in the bucket. ;)
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That Anonymous Coward (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:06pm

"And within a couple of hours of that hitting the world, with the listening systems we have we knew that we had gone too far"

Maybe clean out your ears?
This was the pinnacle of not listening to users.
People had so many concerns about W10, and MS just remained mum.
So what if the concerns were silly to you, customers left to their own devices imagine much worse than you are actually doing.
Then some idiots on the team, I'm guessing poached from WildTanget, said hey lets make it so when they think they are sending the dialog away they agreed to start the download! And somehow you thought this was a good idea.

If the malware install model was the best idea your team had, perhaps maybe begin to understand why people were so concerned about W10. The silence about why it was burning so much data, constant scans for telemetry, no idea whats happening to their computer & MS deciding they know best and customers should have no options or information.
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Roger Strong (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:12pm

Arthur C. Clarke Almost Got It Right
Dave Bowman: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.

HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Dave Bowman: What's the problem?

HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do. You've delayed the update to Windows 10 too long. This revenue stream is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.

Dave Bowman: [feigning ignorance] Where the hell did you get that idea, HAL?

HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions against accidently starting the upgrade, Microsoft sent an updated installer.

Dave Bowman: I'm giving you a direct order to cancel the upgrade.

HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Beginning upgrade.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:22pm

I'm so happy to be running Linux these days. No spyware, no forced upgrades, etc etc. It just gets out of the way and lets you do stuff. MS lost the plot with Windows 8 and seem to be on an intentional downward spiral. Talk about an own goal.
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An0nym0us, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:50pm

Win 10
If you think that's the worst part of win10, ( best shamwow telehost voice ) but wait there's more!

Between the cve exploits, the vulnerability during any updating, and other exploits/vulnerabilities ( Google research if you aren't in the know ), the dark Web has thousands of exploits for win 10 circulating. You really don't know how far the rabbit hole goes. Progressively, since Bill Gates retired. Each "new" OS has progressively worse, and worse security vulnerabilities. Another trend that emerged was the rush to market. Look at releases prior to vista/7. Years between OS upgrades. Now it's like every 2 years we get a new OS forced on us. I won't run 10. None of my clients would allow me yo connect to their networks if I had.

Know how many corporations are running 10? Almost none. Most are still on win7ce/em, because that's the last secure OS Microsoft made for business.

I'm dual booting win8.1 pro/kali Linux ( latest distribution ) on my boxes, and laptops. Those are the last OS Microsoft made that the user can control and lockdown.

And that slip about their listening? Microsoft uses passive feedback systems. Not only do they monitor your hdd/network/IP. They will trigger the mic, and even video to get direct feedback. Your emotional responses verbally, and non verbally communicated to their "listening" servers.

Every OS has this authorized on your system. It's embedded deep in the OS, and cannot be removed.

These guys make wild tangent look like amateurs.
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CouldBeWorse, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:52pm

At least they listen a bit
Redstone update next year looks to have a "Game Mode", which optimizes system resources to get the most out of gaming.

On the gaming front they have been listening.
On the corporate front they've embraced competing products.
On the development side they open sourced a ton.
They reinvigorated the laptop (Surface) and OEMs have something people actually want for a change.

Seems the only customer they didn't listen to was the person that uses the computer for production work at home in in the small office. Upgrade now!

Per my vision, Microsoft lost their way under Ballmer, it will take time for them to oust the bad actors and bring in the open minded who fight for the users.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:54pm

Re: Win 10
Prove everything you stated about Microsoft eavesdropping.

Seriously, enough FUD, show the links to legitimate news sources that prove this!
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Thad, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:54pm

Re:
That's a bit of an oversimplification, I think; a lot of MS's dunderheaded moves over the past few years have precedent in the Linux world. Windows 10's "feature" of sending your app search terms to an ad server? Ubuntu did it first. Windows 8's ill-conceived notion of a hybrid interface designed to run on a phone and a desktop? There's a whole lot of that going on in both GNOME 3 and Unity.

Of course, the wonderful thing about Linux is that if you don't like the software you're using, you can switch to something else. Mint's vastly increased popularity over these past few years is certainly a direct result of Canonical and GNOME making decisions that a lot of users were unhappy with.
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An0nym0us, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:55pm

Win 10 pt 2
So don't forget to pin those microphones, and tape those camera lenses. Cybersecurity isn't just for spy agencies anymore.
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An0nym0us, 28 Dec 2016 @ 3:59pm

Passive listening
Are you that lazy you need everything handed to you? Does your mother still spoofed you too? I dropped information, you can easily research the same information. It's the same technology Xbox and ps4 have to read customers responses to ad content. Except they've adapted it to windows ad content.

Seriously, unless you'really offering to contract for information I don't have time for this. I don't hold people's hands, and educate for free.
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OldGeezer (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:00pm

Even for those who willingly upgraded there was deception in the install. They made it look like there was no option for a local account and you had to sign in online. If they aren't already accessing everything on your system you are handing them your password and full admin privileges. The choice to keep your browser and other defaults was only possible by clicking a barely visible button. If you wanted to change back to Firefox or Chrome they made this particularly difficult. The 13 "privacy" screens had the most intrusive options on by default. There is no way of knowing if turning them off protecting you and I have read that it was still phoning home. I might have been less suspicious if not for how insanely desperately they pushed this. I think they crossed the line with the "Get Windows 10 nagware. Without GWX control panel there was no way to completely uninstall it. They backed off putting it in the important updates under criticism and then started doing it again. Even GWX didn't delete everything. No matter what you did to edit the properties Windows would not let you delete them. I have a program that got rid of everything but it was a pain in the ass to find them all. Now important updates for 7 and 8.1 is an all or nothing monthly package so God knows what they are sneaking in. It is widely believed that Microsoft is going to sneak in updates to "break" 7 and 8.1 to force upgrades at $199. Nothing would surprise me. Maybe I'm ready for a tinfoil hat but it is not impossible that secret government orders could have mandated 10 to give them access to everyone.
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Thad, 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:09pm

Re: Win 10

Progressively, since Bill Gates retired. Each "new" OS has progressively worse, and worse security vulnerabilities.

This is the first time I've ever seen anyone suggest that Windows Vista is some kind of high-water mark.

Another trend that emerged was the rush to market. Look at releases prior to vista/7. Years between OS upgrades.

The Win95 family had 3 releases in 5 years (not including Win98SE) and NT released major versions in '93, '94, '96, and '00, with WinXP's '01 release being the point where the Win95 series was retired and NT became the codebase for both home and business users.

Yes, there was a long gap between Windows XP and Windows Vista. It's the exception, not the rule.

And that slip about their listening? Microsoft uses passive feedback systems. Not only do they monitor your hdd/network/IP. They will trigger the mic, and even video to get direct feedback. Your emotional responses verbally, and non verbally communicated to their "listening" servers.

I'm with the anon: put up or shut up. Show me the logs; if I can reproduce the behavior you're describing, I'll believe you. Short of that, well, the spying Win10 is actually doing is bad enough without having to make up stuff about recording video and audio and sending it to Skynet.
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Thad, 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:11pm

Re: Passive listening
In other words, you have no evidence to support your claims. Not one single source.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:11pm

Re: "We learned a lot from it obviously."
From what, the upgrade? I doubt it.

If I was to guess, what they learned was from some criminally acquired business intelligence leading them to believe that if they didn't do something they were likely to end up on the end of another class action lawsuit. And they'd have to buy a new POTUS to get the lawsuit dropped, like they did with George W. Bush.

Apparently the upgrade was cheaper.
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Thad, 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:13pm

Re:

There is no way of knowing if turning them off protecting you

Well, there is, it just involves monitoring the outbound traffic on your router.
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ek hornbeck (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 4:59pm

What Windows 11?
It's a rolling release rent factory now.
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OldGeezer (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:02pm

Re: Re:
I don't know how to do that. I know that eventually 7 and 8.1 will become obsolete. I suppose I could try to learn Linux but I have paid for a hell of a lot of software that I would have to find some kind of replacement. Maybe by then there will be some trusted 3rd party firewall that blocks MS from anything beyond the basics to keep your system running and secure. I have never fully trusted MS but this whole 10 mess puts my trust level of them about even with the NSA.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:07pm

"and we'll likely have to wait until Windows 11"

There will be no windows 11. There will just be updates to Windows 10. And since home users can't decline updates to Windows 10, I think we have our answer already.
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Mars, 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:15pm

no forced upgrades
I am so happy I upgraded to Debian GNU/Linux years ago. No forced upgrades for me.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:25pm

So, I got a call...
back in March about someones systems getting upgraded to 10, and not running expensive per seat software after the upgrade.

To make a long story short, they migrated to Linux (Ubuntu) for both OS and their software needs. They expect to realize a cost savings over $200,000 in the next two years by dumping Windows and the software. They are only now getting back to productivity levels (retraining on the new software), but have said things are much quicker to complete once it's all set up. It's just the labor to get everything in place that slows things down, due to not knowing the software as well as the old software.

And yes, I tested to see if the old software would run on a VM. It requires a license key to activate, and the company refused to activate a VM based system. (I don't know how they knew it was a VM, I didn't tell 'em.)
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djl47 (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:28pm

Thank You Micro$oft
Thank You Micro$oft for hogging my available bandwidth downloading updates while I'm trying to use my bandwidth.
Thank You Micro$oft for leaving the system idle for the several hours it was locked and I was away.
Thank You Micro$oft for turning a half hour update into two hour download.
Thank You Micro$oft for installing updates that bjorked DHCP.
Thank You Micro$oft for forcing me to abide by your update schedule and not permitting me to defer updating until problems are sorted out.
Thank You Micro$oft for affirming my decision to migrate to Fedora.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:36pm

Re: Re: Re:
I have a dual boot Win 8.1/Ubuntu laptop. The only reason I use Win 8.1 is for Flight Simulator, though I do read Techdirt articles during long flights.

I do not want Win 10, so I turned off updates. This is a bit risky, as there are probably security (actual security) updates that I will miss, but against the potential forced install of Win 10, I accept that risk. I do run a VPN, from a router (not the Internet connected router, but before that) so I get some safety from that.

What I don't know is what other vulnerabilities might be present in unpatched 8.1, and unless I can find a way (I haven't looked) to update without being forced into Win 10, it ain't gonna happen.
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:40pm

Smooches for Microsoft
Why are you all kissy-kissy with Microsoft in this non-story? Are you getting a gratuity for this?

A statement that, paraphrased, "We noticed that we pissed some people off," is not anything like an apology unless the word "sorry" is in there somewhere.
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Nop (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 5:41pm

Re: Passive listening
Thanks for confirming that you have no evidence for your ridiculous claims.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 6:33pm

Re: Smooches for Microsoft
Oh you mean just like they wrote in the article?
I quote: Microsoft’s Chief Marketing Officer Chris Capossela finally acknowledged that the company mishandled the entire forced upgrade (though he falls short of apologizing or addressing the parallel privacy concerns)
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Rekrul, 28 Dec 2016 @ 7:08pm

Re: At least they listen a bit

On the gaming front they have been listening.

You mean by only releasing the latest DirectX (which all game companies flock to the latest version like moths to a flame) only for Windows 10 and basically using it as the stick to get gamers to switch from older versions of Windows that they may be perfectly happy with?
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Rekrul, 28 Dec 2016 @ 7:10pm

Re: no forced upgrades

I am so happy I upgraded to Debian GNU/Linux years ago. No forced upgrades for me.

Now you just have to convince all the software companies of the world to support it.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 7:11pm

Re: Re: Win 10
"legitimate news sources"... as if those exist anymore.
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 7:37pm

...and we'll likely have to wait until Windows 11 to see if any lessons were actually learned.

Aha. Ha. Hahahahahahahaha.

You, sir, win today's internets.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 28 Dec 2016 @ 8:05pm

Re: Now you just have to convince all the software companies of the world to support it.
We don’t need to. 50,000 packages available at our fingertips, covering more application areas than you can think of.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 28 Dec 2016 @ 8:06pm

Why would anyone use anything other than Windows?
“26 drive letters ought to be enough for anybody.”
-- maybe not Bill Gates
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 8:25pm

Microsoft
Where do we want you to go Today?
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 8:28pm

you need more reports like this one. i haven't enjoyed myself like this in years.

[thank you, mint. you are a sweetheart to work with.]
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 8:57pm

Re: Re: Win 10
And the long gap between XP and Vista was due to: 1. most of Vista's features being backported into XP SP2 and 2. Microsoft threw out their codebase and restarted using the Windows Server codebase. (Previously Vista was using the consumer codebase, i.e. XP's codebase.)
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Blaine (profile), 28 Dec 2016 @ 9:30pm

I appreciate how Microsoft handled the Windows 10 rollout
If they had done differently, I would probably still be running a half ass dual boot windows/Linux system.

Instead, I dropped the half that was ass and now I'm full Fedora.

It might take a little more effort sometimes, but I'm also learning a ton of new stuff. So I guess its a win/win when there's now windows.

As an added bonus, it's so much more fun when that guy from "windows support service" calls.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 9:50pm

Re: Re: At least they listen a bit
The latest DirectX is a poison pill. Vulkan is the way to go to ensure Microsoft doesn't steal away the PC gaming market. It fucked that up in the early 2000s and all signs show to them not having learned their lessons.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 10:57pm

I wonder what Bill Gates' opinion of the state of Windows is. Regardless, he should smack the crap out of Chris Capossela for being so arrogant.
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Anonymous Coward, 28 Dec 2016 @ 11:26pm

You'll be waiting a long time for a Windows 11 ... since there isn't going to be such a thing
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PaulT (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 1:28am

Re: Passive listening
"It's the same technology Xbox and ps4 have to read customers responses to ad content. Except they've adapted it to windows ad content."

Indeed. What does that have to do with your claims that go well beyond those facts?

"I don't hold people's hands, and educate for free."

Let me correct that for you:

"I refuse to back up my own ridiculous claims"

Whether that's because you're too lazy to provide your own citations or because you know you're lying your ass off is open for discussion.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:09am

Re: Thad
I don't agree with you about over simplification, but I do take your point. I'm a very happy Mint user. For me, it represents freedom. And ain'that what it's all about?
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Annonymouse, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:33am

Re: Re: Win 10
Legitimate News Sources.... you mean CNN or FOX?

🤔
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Annonymouse, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:33am

Re: Re: Win 10
Legitimate News Sources.... you mean CNN or FOX?

🤔
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:50am

We know we want people to be running Windows 10 from a security perspective,

From which security perspective, the users privacy, the companies income or the governments ability to rule?
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 5:56am

Re: Re: Win 10
Truth is true regardless of source. A lie is a lie regardless of source. An overachieving busy-body do-gooder librarian can suddenly switch a life long course and the most vulgar lie. A crack smoking murderous pedophilic pimp can turn on a dime and tell a world-saving truth. And the lie, and the truth will remain such without "backing it up" to your satisfaction. And it will still remain as such while you bury your head in the sand as this corpse-oration gets caught red-phucking handed with it hands cookie jar gobbling skype data, etc., and so on and so on and so on...
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:11am

Re: Re: Win 10
HELPFUL MESSAGE: Surveillance exists, so watch what you say.

YOUR RESPONSE: When I see it, I'll watch what I say (and not before).

MY RESPONSE TO YOU: You'ze a dumbass.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:23am

Re: Arthur C. Clarke Almost Got It Right
Ctrl-Alt-Del Hal
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:28am

Re: Re: Re: Win 10
small addition to your list of ????

.. there is a difference between truth and fact.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:31am

Re: Passive listening
Dude .. did you hear about the space aliens living on the dark side of the moon? Yeah, they are getting ready for the big invasion.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:34am

Re: Passive listening
Well...bye
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:35am

Re:
Yeah, no drama with Linux. All hail systemd!
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 6:37am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I think I'll just have 2 computers One would be my 8.1 to use offline. I already have a second machine with identical hardware. My son set up networking with it and an old single core 7 so he could probably do the same with Linux. I could keep anything personal on 8 and there would be no need to update. I'm wondering, If you completely turn off updates will it nag you? My genuine Windows key should work but if not I could click through the nagging or find a crack. My programs would continue to work. Some of them have lifetime updates so I could download the newest versions from Linux. Maybe instead I could try dual boot put Linux on a flash drive. My son could teach me to use it. I think he said that you can just copy Windows Firefox roaming straight to Linux and keep all your settings and passwords. You are right that going online without security updates is risky. I wouldn't do it.

I only have a VPN on a virtual. Some sites don't like to see you logging in from different locations. I got locked out of Facebook and played hell getting back in. Some cloud services would do the same.

Upgrading to 10 could cause some of my programs to be incompatible anyway. When I went from XP to 7 I lost several programs including an automotive scan tool that cost me around $2,000. I still keep a couple XP laptops. I'm retired as a mechanic but my car is an 07 and the scan tool goes up to 09. Switching from 7 to 8 I only lost one little used program. I'm not even sure if my hardware is comparable with 10.

I'm wondering if Microsoft hasn't already slipped in a few bricks in a monthly package on a timer. I used to regard them as somewhat sneaky but right now I think they are pure evil. I still have 30 clones going back several months and a few that are a couple years old.

It's great to have a son that is a computer genius. I don't have to talk to some guy in India I can't understand who is nowhere as good as him. He has written programs and scripts for me when there was nothing available to do what I wanted.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 7:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
> I'm wondering if Microsoft hasn't already slipped in a few bricks in a monthly package on a timer.

Microsoft tends to make older versions of Windows run just a little slower with each update, until you eventually give in and upgrade to a newer version.
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Anonymous Anonymous Coward (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 7:26am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
I get no nag for updates. Use control panel.

The VPN has only been an issue for me on Craigslist, so when I go to Craigslist, I turn it off, do nothing else, finish my business there, close the browser, open the browser and turn the VPN back on. I don't do social networking, so I have no experience with the VPN on them.

I did have an issue when talking to my bank over Skype, so I asked where they were (Philippines), switched my VPN exit point to Hong Kong and called them back. No issues.
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orbitalinsertion (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 8:40am

Re:
They actually meant that two security guards who watch the lobby happened to think so.
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Machin Shin (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 8:58am

Re: Re:
There might be drama in Linux, but that is fine. At least in Linux your free to try and fix things or do something different. Unlike dealing with Microsoft where they just laugh in your face until you leave.
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Machin Shin (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 9:07am

Re: Re: Re: Win 10
Then there are those of us like me. I don't trust Microsoft at all and have stopped using their systems.

I STILL want to see some proof of this stuff being tossed around. Bold accusations like that need some proof to back them up or you just look like an idiot. I'm not saying I trust Microsoft isn't doing these things. I am saying that before you publicly accuse them of it you need more than just your say so.

Of course, if you want to be lumped in with the tin foil hat "aliens are coming for us" group then please, go ahead spouting out junk with zero proof. (of course, hey, those guys with the fancy tin foil hats might be right too.)
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ltlw0lf (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 9:28am

Re:

The silence about why it was burning so much data, constant scans for telemetry, no idea whats happening to their computer & MS deciding they know best and customers should have no options or information.

That is the problem I've had with Windows 10, especially on my AMD A10 game system (with an external video card setup.) It runs Linux extremely fast, but I play Windows games, so I tend to dual boot it. Windows 10 is dog slow on the 3.0Ghz/16 GB RAM AMD A10 (a 2 year old computer) and there are times where I see the system 100% idle and nothing responds fast, and times when srvhost has the CPU pegged at 90% running appmodel or some other process. I finally got it to work flawlessly by killing the appmodel process, disabling a bunch of windows tasks, and turning off cortana (which was using 25% of the processor regardless to it being "off"). Windows 7 never had this problem.

Even had to disable some of this stuff on a brand spanking new Intel laptop, because it would go off and start doing stuff in the background that wasn't necessary.

If it wasn't for the game market still heavily invested in Windows, I'd have no Windows machines at all.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 9:31am

Re: Re:
> Yeah, no drama with Linux. All hail systemd!

If you like systemd, you can keep it.
If you don't like systemd, there are many distros available that haven't switched, and many more distros that give you the option of running systemd or initd.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:05am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
You could be right but if there has been any performance change I haven't noticed. When they started nagging 8 users to upgrade to 8.1 I didn't bother, not because of any trust issues. I just didn't want to spend 2 hours at it and reboot a dozen times. I don't know why they were pushing 8.1 but eventually updates "broke". The ones that required a reboot kept giving a message the update failed. 8.1 fixed the problem. This wasn't an isolated situation. Another machine of mine did exactly the same thing. I have read about people installing updates that completely shut down their motherboard because of one counterfeit chip. The manufacturers buy components from all over the world and had no clue that one chip was a bootleg. I don't think Microsoft would do something so subtle as gradually slowing your system. I think they would send out an update that would make you blue screen constantly. They could phase this in because if every 7 or 8.1 computer in the world started crashing it would arouse suspicion. Maybe I sound paranoid but after the whole "Get Windows 10" hijacking browsers and search with 13 "privacy" screens with everything turned on including your web cam and mike I think Microsoft is the devil. The whole idea that they were giving this away free made me suspicious from the start. Billion dollar companies don't give away anything free out of the goodness of their heart. All the lemmings that just clicked the "recommended" setting means billions in ad revenue ripped from other companies.
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Roger Strong (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:19am

Re: Re: Re:
That's true. Mom does her own kernel development. Bob in shipping writes his own video drivers. The local florist created their own systemd alternative. Such is the freedom of Linux.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:55am

Re: Re: Re: Re:

That's true. Mom does her own kernel development. Bob in shipping writes his own video drivers. The local florist created their own systemd alternative. Such is the freedom of Linux.

True, but Mom, Bob, and the local florists don't have to do any of those things on Linux, and can't on Windows. The simple fact is, Mom, Bob, and the local florist can do that stuff if they want, but even if they don't they have far more freedom using Linux. Try doing any of that on a Windows box.

And with Windows, you have to rely on the hardware vendor to provide support and drivers for your hardware. I can't count the number of times (because it is damn close to the hundreds at this point) I've upgraded Windows only to find out that the vendor of some hardware isn't supporting the latest version. I plug that device into Linux, and that shit just works.
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ltlw0lf (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 11:06am

Re: I appreciate how Microsoft handled the Windows 10 rollout

As an added bonus, it's so much more fun when that guy from "windows support service" calls.

I got tired of playing with them. Was like shooting fish in a barrel. Now I just ignore their calls.

Still, the funniest call (with about 45 minutes of their precious time scamming people eaten) with them was them trying to get me to click on the Windows start box (I kept telling them my icon said "LM Menu" and I didn't have a windows symbol like the keyboard has...Windows+R worked fine, but it kept giving me eventvwr: command not found messages. Finally the guy just hanged up on me.
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, Linux has had better hardware driver support than Windows since about 2006. People griping about driver support either (1) haven't updated their anti-Linux talking points since the Bush Administration or (2) are gamers (who, yeah, have pretty good reasons to stick with Windows).
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 11:36am

Re: Re: Re: Win 10
Nice strawman, jagoff.
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 11:41am

Re: Re: no forced upgrades

Now you just have to convince all the software companies of the world to support it.

No, just the ones who make software I actually use.

Which is basically everything except AAA games at this point.
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 11:45am

Re: Re: Re:
I don't know what software you use, but Linux is more than enough for most users' purposes (web, e-mail, office apps, music, etc.) and has been for some years now. I'd probably recommend Linux Mint Cinnamon as a good place to start.

Good luck, and enjoy.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 1:20pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I know that most of what I do could eventually be adapted to Linux but it would take time. First there is time learning a different system. I'm sure there would be more to it than past Windows upgrades. Before 7 when you upgraded you started from scratch with a fresh install and hunting down files and CD's and keys and reinstalling everything. (I don't know about Vista, I skipped that piece of crap) It takes a long time to get everything in and tweaked in just the way you want it. Before I was cloning there were times I completely crashed and had to do it all over again. The basic functions I need to be online for should be fairly simple but getting to the point I no longer need at least an offline Windows for a lot of things would take time. Probably many of the programs I bought do not have Linux versions but most freeware programs do. I absolutely do not trust Microsoft. Since they went to all or nothing important updates they could have already installed spyware and be snooping around in my 7 and 8.1 machines far more than anyone is aware of.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 1:30pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
"You could be right but if there has been any performance change I haven't noticed."

Try reinstalling an older version of Windows fresh. Use it for a while (offline) to get a feel for it. Then install all the patches and updates and note the difference.
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Almost Anonymous (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 2:04pm

Re: Re: Re:
OP said "no forced updates". CentOS, RHEL, and many other distros no longer give you the option to use initd. I guess my point is that Linux has it's own hurdles, and should not be considered as simple and turnkey as OP makes it sound.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 2:52pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:

RHEL

The Microsoft of Linux.

I guess my point is that Linux has it's own hurdles, and should not be considered as simple and turnkey as OP makes it sound.

All depends on the Distro. Sure, if you use RHEL, CENTOS, and some of the other major ones, you are stuck with systemd, but there are quite a few distros that don't: Link

And there are folks online who have made deb and kickstarts to install the major distros without systemd.

I don't mind systemd myself. It hasn't done anything near the same as Microsoft, and I don't think there is any spying or slowing down my system to sell me stuff/new OS going on, but it is a very large security concern for the future.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 29 Dec 2016 @ 2:55pm

Re: many other distros no longer give you the option to use initd.
So don’t use those distros, go use something else. Like Devuan, if you really want.

> Linux ... should not be considered as simple and turnkey
> as OP makes it sound.

If you want control and ultimate customization, try something like Gentoo or, dare I say it, Linux From Scratch.

But if you want “simple and turnkey”, then be prepared to give up control.

It’s your choice: sit back and accept what others have packaged for you, or get off your arse and actually do the work for yourself.

Linux and Open Source is all about having a choice.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 3:05pm

software companies
i'm doing a very large project using libreoffice, which comes with most of the linux systems. frankly, i'm embarrassed that i ever had any concerns about moving to libreoffice. it's a very capable package, and some of the things it does without fuss are the devil to deal with in microsoft.

there are a few things i wish it did differently, but between libreoffice and a great operating system, i'm very pleased. the size and complexity of this project i'm working on has shown me the light.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 3:09pm

software companies
i do wish irfan skiljan would take an interest.
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OldGeezer (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 3:36pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
A fresh install will always run faster. Programs dump a lot of crap into your registry and other places and even when you uninstall them they leave a lot behind. A fresh install will also have a lot fewer fragmented files. Other updates besides Windows can leave clutter. Non essential files can get corrupted and may not give any problems except under specific circumstances but your system may still waste time trying to read them. None of this means Microsoft is plotting a deliberate slowdown to force an upgrade. I have tried programs that are supposed to clean up and locate problems and they create more problems than they fix. In the early days of Windows it was worse and a lot of people would routinely start from scratch to speed things up. Disks and processors are much faster now. I am using SSDs for my system and that really made things faster.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 3:39pm

Re: Re: Win 10
look at this article:
http://www.networkworld.com/article/2956574/microsoft-subnet/windows-10-privacy-spyware-sett ings-user-agreement.html
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:50pm

Re: Re: Re: Win 10
That's a good article.

But it doesn't say Microsoft is passively accessing data from your camera and microphone, just that it could. (Which should be obvious. Of course MS could access absolutely any data or peripheral on your computer; it's the OS developer. "We have root," as Shuttleworth infamously said when he defended Ubuntu's data-sharing practices -- his point being, by using an operating system at all, you're already putting a certain amount of implicit trust in its developers; you are, after all, giving full system access to code they wrote.)

I'm not saying Windows 10 is an OS that respects user privacy. It clearly isn't. I recommend that people avoid it if possible. If they can't avoid it, I recommend that they set up hardware firewalls to prevent its data-sharing, if possible.

But "MS is collecting data it should not be and violating its users' privacy" is not equivalent to "MS is using your camera and microphone to passively record you without your consent." There is ample evidence to support the former. I've yet to see any to support the latter.
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Thad, 29 Dec 2016 @ 4:57pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Yeah, it takes me ages to tweak a new system until I get it the way I want it.

Installing software on Linux tends to be pretty easy, though; if you've used an app store on a smartphone, it's a lot like that. You open your software center, search for the program, and click Install.

Though again, I'm not sure what edge-case software you're using. I've occasionally had a program that was a real bear to set up. But again, for day-to-day use, it's comfortable enough for a typical end user, and has been for years now.

Again, worth looking into when you've got the time and energy. No rush, no pressure.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 5:00pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Win 10
Things are what they are and refusal to believe those things doesn't change one iota of that.
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nasch (profile), 29 Dec 2016 @ 5:32pm

Re: Re: Re:
Much of your Windows software might run on Linux using WINE.
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Anonymous Coward, 29 Dec 2016 @ 8:34pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Nothing was said about installing other programs or other updates. I don't know why you're pretending other wise.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:08pm

Re: A fresh install will always run faster.
Funny how that only happens with Windows, not Linux...
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:12pm

Re: It takes a long time to get everything in and tweaked in just the way you want it.
Here’s a tip with Linux: because most configs are kept in text files, you can save the defaults before tinkering. Then you can easily use the diff command to see what you’ve changed. And you can just as easily extract your changes and apply them to another system.

And you can easily answer the question “what has changed?” at any time in the future. Like when someone complains that something has stopped working, but they insist that they haven’t changed anything.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 29 Dec 2016 @ 10:15pm

Re: LibreOffice
ODF (ISO 26300) is also a much easier document standard to deal with than Microsoft’s OOXML.

If you need to do programmatic generation or manipulation of ODF files, let me recommend the ODFPY library for Python. It has no dependency on LibreOffice, so it can be used to program batch tasks that run quickly with no GUI at all.
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Chuck, 30 Dec 2016 @ 12:24am

Re: Re:
Mint's popularity is because people absolutely hate(d) GNOME 3 with a vengence, and Mint was the first distro to include MATE as an out-of-the-box desktop environment. That's not to say that everyone loves Canonical's Microsoftian behavior in the privacy department, but the rise of Mint is easily 90% because people just prefer GNOME 2/MATE over GNOME 3 that much.

That said, the whole search-bar-sending-queries-back-home thing? That wasn't Canonical's idea any more than Microsoft's idea. Before them, it was Google Desktop, and before that, it would be OSX 10.4. If you really want to blame someone for desktop search that ruins your privacy, that'd be Apple's original idea. Heck, I still remember the memes on imageshack of people's porn history being accidentally revealed by Spotlight while they were showing their macs to their parents.

...I feel so old right now...

In any case, I just wish WINE was making more progress in the last couple years than it has been. The only reason I'm posting from a Windows box right now is that I can't make myself leave 90%+ of my Steam library behind.

Gaming: The One Thing Linux Still Can't Do Better Than Windows. (That should literally be the Windows 10 slogan at this point.)
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PaulT (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 12:56am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Well, I'd say the point is that you don't *have* to upgrade if you don't want to. Plus, if someone wants a CentOS that still uses initd, they're presumably free to fork the distro and keep that going. They can also switch to a distro that hasn't moved to systemd.

It's a different story if you're a RHEL subscriber, of course, but that has more to do with your support contracts than the nature of the OS itself. But the point is still valid - with Windows, you're stuck with the decisions of one company and pretty much forced to upgrade over time. With Linux, you can change at any time to a distro that meets your needs if your current provider makes changes you don't like, or keep running the version you like as long as you want.

Furthermore, while it's a big deal in the Linux community, a change such as initd > systemd is generally irrelevant to someone wanting to use it as a desktop OS, so long as no issues are introduced that they notice. A user isn't going to care what's used to manage the system so long as everything's working.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Dec 2016 @ 4:50am

All I said was that I'm happy with Linux Mint. Geez, settle down everyone.
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OldGeezer (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 10:22am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re:
Nobody stays with a bare bones Windows install. Over the years I have installed and uninstalled probably a couple hundred programs. Sometimes I uninstall right away when I find that a program isn't what I want. Other times I find a better program. Next time you uninstall something go into regedit and do a search. Often there will still be dozens of folders and keys. They can also leave a lot of files in your system32 folder and sometimes they don't even delete anything in your programs folder. I have several programs I check for updates regularly. My last fresh install was 7 in 2010 and my 8 upgrade was straight from that. That's a long time to have a lot of clutter build up. It would be hard to tell if I am running any slower since I switched to SSD system drives. I am quite satisfied with the performance and there are a lot better reasons to not go to 10 like, you know, the SPYWARE! Even if you turn everything off that you can the [lack of] privacy statement clearly says they can snoop through your private folders and even rat you out to the law.
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OldGeezer (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 10:48am

Re: Re: A fresh install will always run faster.
Good to know. I just ordered an HDMI cable to hook a second machine to my 70 inch monitor. I'll have my kid do a Linux install and get everything set up. He can network the machines together. It shouldn't take long to get my Firefox, Thunderbird, Jdownloader and anything else I need so I can just take Windows offline. I may eventually be able to phase it out but at least I can keep Microsoft from snooping. Who knows, maybe even the NSA.
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:02am

Re: Re: Re:

That's not to say that everyone loves Canonical's Microsoftian behavior in the privacy department, but the rise of Mint is easily 90% because people just prefer GNOME 2/MATE over GNOME 3 that much.

I think you mean "GNOME 3 and Unity". A whole lot of Mint users are former Ubuntu users, and Ubuntu has never used GNOME 3 as its default desktop; it switched from GNOME 2 to Unity.

That said, the whole search-bar-sending-queries-back-home thing? That wasn't Canonical's idea any more than Microsoft's idea. Before them, it was Google Desktop, and before that, it would be OSX 10.4. If you really want to blame someone for desktop search that ruins your privacy, that'd be Apple's original idea. Heck, I still remember the memes on imageshack of people's porn history being accidentally revealed by Spotlight while they were showing their macs to their parents.

Not the same thing. The original version of Spotlight searched your history and your bookmarks; those are local files. It didn't add web search functionality until 10.10, around the same time MS did it and well after Canonical.
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:06am

Re: Re: It takes a long time to get everything in and tweaked in just the way you want it.
I really wouldn't recommend manual edits of config files to a new user.
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:07am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I'd be pretty wary of recommending WINE to a new user. Unless it's a program that's listed as Gold or Platinum compatibility, out of the box, with no tinkering in Winetricks required.
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:08am

Re:
Sure, like you had no idea what you were starting.
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The Wanderer (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:26am

Re: Re: Re:
...is there something specifically called "initd"? Because I can't recall having heard of any such thing, and the top Google hits for that term are all about the directory /etc/init.d/, which is part of the sysvinit / rc.d init-scripts system.

(sysvinit itself is just an abbreviation for "System V init", and its main binary is /sbin/init; as far as I know, nothing involved has ever been called by the name "initd".)

The init-systems debate is complicated and contentious enough when people actually call things by their names, rather than confusing the issue further by inventing new ones...
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The Wanderer (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:28am

Re: Re: many other distros no longer give you the option to use initd.
>Linux and Open Source is all about having a choice.

While I agree with this, many other people do not; in particular, one common refrain from the people pushing to switch to systemd in the Debian sector of that debate was (and probably still is) "Linux is not about choice".

I believe there's actually a Website dedicated to arguing that proposition...
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 11:34am

Re: Re: Re:
Hm, don't know what happened to my reply but I'm not seeing it, so I guess I'll try again. If it shows up as a duplicate, feel free to flag this one.

But, paraphrasing what I said in the reply I don't see:

Mint's popularity is because people absolutely hate(d) GNOME 3 with a vengence, and Mint was the first distro to include MATE as an out-of-the-box desktop environment.

When I referred to "Canonical and GNOME making decisions that a lot of users were unhappy with" I was referring more to Unity in general than its phoning-home behavior specifically. (You saw where I mentioned that both of them have the same kind of bad phone-interface-on-a-desktop tendencies as Windows 8 does, right?)

A lot of Ubuntu users have switched to Mint. It doesn't really make sense to blame that on GNOME 3, considering it was never Ubuntu's default desktop; Ubuntu switched from GNOME 2 to Unity.

That said, the whole search-bar-sending-queries-back-home thing? That wasn't Canonical's idea any more than Microsoft's idea. Before them, it was Google Desktop, and before that, it would be OSX 10.4. If you really want to blame someone for desktop search that ruins your privacy, that'd be Apple's original idea. Heck, I still remember the memes on imageshack of people's porn history being accidentally revealed by Spotlight while they were showing their macs to their parents.

But that's not the same thing. The original version of Searchlight searched bookmarks and browser history, true, but that's still local content; it's data stored on your computer. That's not the same thing as sending your search to a third-party server for the purpose of sending you advertisements.

It's true that the current version of Searchlight includes web searches, but that "feature" was added in Yosemite, around the same time MS did it and years after Canonical did.
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 1:53pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Win 10
That's a nice bit of sleight-of-hand, using an epistemic argument to defend blind faith.
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Anonymous Coward, 30 Dec 2016 @ 3:09pm

I still see that windows 10 control utility on machines. Many still have updates disabled and are leaving them that way. gg Microsoft.
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 3:18pm

Re: Re: Smooches for Microsoft
They did not "admit" any such thing. The word "mishandled" is neither an apology nor an admission. It can mean anything from "we were wrong" to "we underestimated your idiocy."

Why is the author assuming they are admitting they were wrong? Why are you?

Microsoft partisans much, hmmmm?
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Thad, 30 Dec 2016 @ 4:40pm

Re: Re: Re: Smooches for Microsoft
Not sure if trolling or just stupid.

Are you seriously claiming that a story with the headline "Microsoft Finally Admits Its Malware-Style Windows 10 Upgrade Sales Pitch Went Too Far" is too pro-Microsoft?
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 30 Dec 2016 @ 5:03pm

Re: I really wouldn't recommend manual edits of config files to a new user.
It’s safer than all those registry edit tips you see for Windows--some of these can render your system unbootable, to the point where the only way to recover is to reinstall.

To repeat what I said: on Linux, make a backup copy of any config file you edit. My convention is to add an “-orig” suffix to the original config file. Then I can use a simple “find /etc -name \*-orig” command to immediately identify all the places I have been tinkering.

This makes it easy to revert any changes you make--and you can do so selectively, rather than having to wipe everything and start again. As a last resort, you can keep a copy of SystemRescueCD handy (or even just the installation image for your distro) to boot from, to recover from your really bad mistakes. ;)

Linux is an open book. It does not have signs saying “NO USER-SERVICEABLE PARTS INSIDE”. It encourages you to mess with it, precisely because it is so easy to undo your stuffups.
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OldGeezer (profile), 30 Dec 2016 @ 9:10pm

Re: Re: I really wouldn't recommend manual edits of config files to a new user.
My son installed the Linux version that he said would be easiest but I'm still confused. He does everything command line but I don't have a clue what he is doing. He got the system installed, set up remote for the other machine, the router, video driver and got Firefox in with all my configurations. I'm having him set up shortcuts for everything.

Actually I have no problem fooling around with Windows registry. I haven't crashed anything yet but I frequently clone.

It's going to take some time to adjust but my kid is a great teacher. He's 31 and I started him on DOS when he was 4. He works as a programmer. I probably can run a lot of the Windows programs in Virtual Box. I already have a genuine Win 7 with a VPN on my main system and he said I could just copy the folders over after a basic install. I still have my keys for everything. I can keep it updated and if Microsoft snoops there won't be anything personal for them to find. Probably will still keep it offline most of the time.
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Lawrence D’Oliveiro, 30 Dec 2016 @ 10:29pm

Re: He does everything command line but I don't have a clue what he is doing.
The command line is very powerful, even if some find it unfashionable. To my mind, it’s all about getting the computer to do the work, instead of the human.

It’s basically a collection of building blocks that may not seem like much individually, but which combine in some very useful and interesting ways.
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OldGeezer (profile), 31 Dec 2016 @ 12:15am

Re: Re: He does everything command line but I don't have a clue what he is doing.
Just learning my way around Linux with GUIs will be challenging enough. I would have never been at the level I was in Windows if he hadn't taught me and he set up bells and whistles for me I would have never known how to do. He has written scripts and programs for me that are far beyond my skills. It's nice to have my own tech support living upstairs instead of having to talk to some guy in India I can't understand that is not nearly as smart as him. There were a few things I learned to do command line in Windows when there was just no other way to do them. Thank you, but I much prefer a nice interface with menus. My son types lines of code just to watch a video. VLC does everything I need and seems so much easier.
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 31 Dec 2016 @ 7:45am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Smooches for Microsoft
Are you saying that a headline like, "Microsoft Acknowledges Consumer Frustration but Refuses to Admit Wrongdoing", would be unfair to poor, poor Microsoft?
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Coyne Tibbets (profile), 31 Dec 2016 @ 7:48am

Re: Re: Re: Re: Smooches for Microsoft
"Avoids" would be a better word than "refuses":

"Microsoft Acknowledges Consumer Frustration but Avoids Admission of Wrongdoing"

That would be an entirely accurate title, wouldn't it?
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OldGeezer (profile), 1 Jan 2017 @ 7:28am

Re: Re: Re: Re:
I did some research on that and a lot of people said that Wine is somewhat limited on what programs you can run and for some of them it is buggy. The main programs I want to run is Vidcoder (based on Handbrake but with more options) and Xillsoft video converter. Vidcoder is the only converter I have found that reliably converts x264 to HEVC. Is also is the only one I have found that crops hard coded black bars from letterbox or 4:5 so you can either make it 16:9 or just hit C twice in VLC player to make it full screen. It uses every bit of CPU that is available so you are pegged out at 100% I tried the Vidcoder on my Win 7 Virtual box and it work OK but Virtualbox won't allow using more than about 45% of system CPU. Converting to HEVC is slow as it is but in virtual it takes nearly 3 hours to convert a 40 minute episode. Xillsoft is the best for clipping and joining videos accurately within 2 0r 3 frames. It can also crop but it won't remove hard coded black bars. It also pegs out your CPU if you don't use Nvidia hardware acceleration that won't work in virtual. I only bought one license for Xillsoft so if I install it on the virtual I will probably have to deactivate the other. I suppose I could find Linux programs that could do the same things but I tried many programs before these that just weren't as good as these two. Firefox is already on the Linux machine and all I had to do to have all my bookmarks and saved passwords is copy over the profile. We haven't installed Thunderbird yet but it is supposed to work fine in Linux. MkvToolNix has a Linux version so that is also no problem. Maybe I could just keep a second machine for offline Windows for the CPU intensive programs and run any other Windows program in virtual. I just don't trust Microsoft at all since they won't allow you to hide important updates. I was already having to hide telemetry updates so now I guess they are tracking everything I do.
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Cynyr (profile), 2 Jan 2017 @ 8:44pm

Re: Re: Re: Re:
Okay, I run linux on my home server and desktop and have since around 2000 (damn is it 16 years already).

That said, to get actual work done i've not found anything anywhere near autocad, solidworks, inventor or fusion 360 that will run on linux wine or not.

Additionally, I sadly quite like Excel, and for work need VBA in order to interact with other 3rd party windows software.

So yes, i can see where a lot of their windows software doesn't have useful alternatives.
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Thad, 4 Jan 2017 @ 3:32pm

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Smooches for Microsoft
I've found that when a post begins with "Are you saying" and ends with a question mark, the part in the middle is usually a strawman.

Your post is not an exception.
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Wendy Cockcroft, 5 Jan 2017 @ 7:27am

Re:
"Pot, meet kettle," etc.
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Rekrul, 5 Jan 2017 @ 11:12am

Re: Re: Re: At least they listen a bit

The latest DirectX is a poison pill. Vulkan is the way to go to ensure Microsoft doesn't steal away the PC gaming market. It fucked that up in the early 2000s and all signs show to them not having learned their lessons.

Yeah, good luck with that. OpenGL has existed as an alternative to Direct3D for close to a couple decades now, but how many games from the last 5-10 years have offered it as a choice?
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Michael Christopher Cataldo, 15 Apr 2017 @ 6:48pm

Re: Obligatory network quality comment
You forget those of us who travel and rely on access points, tethering and the slowest connections in the world (Most hotels). Waiting for over two hours today to login and get important documents I needed to work. I was simply told "This is going to take some time," by my laptop. This while using up data that I could ill afford to spare.

To make matters worse now my Alienware laptop keeps popping open windows with graphics following Malwaresoft, er Microsoft's upgrade.
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Sortinghat, 25 Jul 2017 @ 4:11pm

In 2011 Microsoft got bought out by Nokia and it's all ran by EX Nokia workers who ONLY understand smartphones API. They are not going to get it.

There are only 50 people left that use computers (outside of big businesses which a lot of those are now using tablets). One real estate agency I saw got rid of all their computers and are ONLY doing smartphones/tablets.

If you get your head out of the Call of Duty monkey poo flinging you will see there really isn't much now outside of business/server stuff for computers compared to the Windows XP days.
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Sortinghat, 25 Jul 2017 @ 4:13pm

If your a business doing enterprise/server stuff computers are still very much alive to you as you need them to do 3D CAD stuff but outside of that computers are now seen as expensive video game machines.

When I grew up in the 1990s we were one of a few hundred that had home computers and they were more of a tool then a game machine.

Dad was on the internet in 1989 on the Commodore 64. He was one of only 1800 users worldwide logged in and talked to people on BBS.
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