How To Improve Online Comments: Test Whether People Have Read The Article Before Allowing Them To Respond
from the probably-asking-too-much dept
For a while now, Techdirt has been writing about the decision by some sites to stop allowing readers to make comments on articles. We've pointed out that's pretty regrettable, especially when it's couched in insulting terms of "valuing conversations" or building "better relationships." Dropping comments is a lazy response to a real and challenging problem: how to encourage readers to engage in meaningful ways.
As well as a natural tendency for people to write hurtful or insultings things that they probably wouldn't say to each other face-to-face, there's another problem: the rise of Internet troll factories whose entire purpose is to flood sites with propaganda in the form of comments that espouse a particular viewpoint. As we noted recently, Google is looking to use machine learning technology to help identify and then deal with toxic comments:
a publisher could flag comments for its own moderators to review and decide whether to include them in a conversation. Or a publisher could provide tools to help their community understand the impact of what they are writing -- by, for example, letting the commenter see the potential toxicity of their comment as they write it. Publishers could even just allow readers to sort comments by toxicity themselves, making it easier to find great discussions hidden under toxic ones.
As Google itself admits, the issue is "about more than just improving comments. We hope we can help improve conversations online." A rather clever way to do that has been devised by NRKbeta, the technology site of the Norwegian government-owned radio and television public broadcasting company, NRK. Here's the basic idea (via Google Translate):
a small [on-screen] module is presented to you as a reader with three questions from the article that you must answer in order to be able to contribute to the discussion.
Actually reading the article before you comment on it -- pretty revolutionary, no? NRKbeta realizes that it's not a perfect solution:
We know of course that it is possible to "cheat" with these questions by searching the text above [the on-screen module], and that using this approach it cannot be guaranteed that everyone actually read the article, but we still think it's worth the experiment.
It's hard not to agree, because it tries to tackle one of the root causes of comments that add nothing to the conversation -- a failure to read what the article said -- by making it a pre-requisite before you can add your own thoughts. It also has the virtue of being extensible in various ways. For example, there could be more than three questions in the pop-up box, and your comment's place and prominence in the conversation could be determined by how many you get right. This might allow the thoughts of more engaged readers to bubble naturally to the top of the conversation. The fact that the code for the feature has been released as free software makes experimentation even easier. NRKbeta's idea certainly seems a better approach than simply giving up and removing comments altogether.
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Filed Under: comments, knowledge, tests, trolling
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Reader Comments
The First Word
“A Message to TechDirt Supporters
If you consider yourself a Friend of TechDirt and a supporter in its fight against Shiva Ayyadurai, you strongly should consider refraining from any further interactions with this anonymous commenter.
First, he's not Shiva Ayyadurai (a) because he said so, (b) because Shiva attended U.S. schools from childhood and likely wouldn't affect the quirky writing style, and (c) if it was, it would have stopped long ago on the advice of his lawyer.
Second, you're not going to explain anything to this commenter. We've already been through explaining that his obsessive commenting demonstrates how powerful TechDirt is in his mind (indeed, Ayyadurai thinks TechDirt is so influential that it allegedly cost him $15M), that the First Amendment does not give him a right to have his comments displayed, how SLAPP suits are contrary to the First Amendment, how flagging comments works on this site, and even referenced the obligatory XKCD comics. Your comment isn't going to break through to him, so just save it.
Third, and probably most important, this anonymous commenter has threatened to use these comments in some legal action. Whether that's just bluster, or whether he follows through, it's additional headache that TechDirt can live without right now. Every dumb argument costs money to respond to. You know he has no ground to stand on (Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act precludes any liability to TechDirt for any comment made by me or anyone else), but that's never stopped a litigant from making a dumb argument. And it certainly doesn't stop TechDirt from having to pay for a lawyer to make that argument on our behalf.
Ignore him and, eventually, he will go away.
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And in response to the obvious question...
I do think it's really interesting though! I'll be curious to watch how it works and if other sites adopt it. But I fear that it also adds a level of friction to comments that may frustrate and annoy many otherwise useful and insightful commenters.
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Re: And in response to the obvious question...
Though you have no First Amendment necessity to allow certain comments, the negative aspects of such a system would devastate commenting in general. I think that the current system of flagging inappropriate comments is a more appropriate system. In fact, I find it the best of all the systems I have experienced.
Now, if we could find a way to punish those that feed trolls, even those who do so for fun. They fail to realize that the rest of us are subjected to the detritus left on these pages, often when we would be otherwise inclined. If only we could talk the community into flagging troll feeders as well, maybe a new flag category.
Find a way to stop the troll feeders, I might be with you. I do not think that algorithms are the answer, at least not yet, and when they become 'good enough' they will be questioned. There are too many false claims of censorship already, and I know for sure that you do not censor.
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Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
Might as well just ask them to provide an echo chamber. I have seen more than enough people here called trolls only because they said something they hive mind did not like.
You might as well just shut down the comments section because it will only lead to a dead forum. But hey, lets give it a shot anyways! It's not like we have not seen this happen anywhere before huh?
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Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
I report people for making comments that either add nothing to a given conversation or are clearly trollish in their intent. My disagreeing with someone does not mean I believe their comment automatically worsens a conversation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
That clearly proves my point. One mans trash is another mans treasure. You think yourself a mighty judge of intentions when you cannot possibly know.
the only things I ever report are people spamming the forum with ads for products. I always read flagged comments because I want the whole story and not someone biased opinion of the matter. If I cannot trust media in general, then I sure cannot trust a bunch of crybabies in a forum flagging comments just because they got butt-hurt.
People that hate trolls are too thinned skin. I follow the viewpoint that anyone offended by something not meant to offend them are fools, and anyone offended by something meant to offend them are even greater fools! If you are so shallow that words can do that to you, then you are not likely to be contributing anything of substantive value to any conversation. In essence you will only become a foil of the trolls and likely descend into that which you despise.
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I can feel reasonably sure that the anonymous commenter who has been posting nonsense about Hamilton and dogs and setting things on fire — a commenter who might even be Shiva Ayyadurai — is doing that with the intent to troll Mike.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
As surely as standards differ, so does mental acuity and a facile imagination. If you invite me to your home to have dinner, there is a baseline of courtesy that needs must be observed. If we were in Asia, I would loudly slurp my noodles and not silence my eructation. If we were in the middle east, I would never point the sole of my foot toward you or cross my eating utensils. And so on and so on.
For instance, you say it is foolish to take exception to being provoked. Carried to its ridiculous logical extension, using that argument, then no one has the right of self defense, because what is an attempt at mayhem but a provocation? (And unbelievably unwise to try to do to me.)
No sir. Being rude and intentionally provoking people is the equivalent of defecating in the living room while a guest at your house. It is unspeakably rude, inconsiderate, a mark of a boor, and childish. I see no reason to treat such people with anything but the contempt and loathing they deserve.
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And don't think that applies here? Try again, I know we have commenters from all around the globe here. So whose standards are we to use to determine what is rude/trollish and what is not?
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…Alabama?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
But I digress. A good number of persistent trolls openly and proudly refuse to read the articles posted here. out_of_the_blue is a prime example. (Aka Football, a pseudonym based on Tor, or whatever multiple IP addresses he's spoofed to spam from.) And when he does post it's to whine about Google or pirates regardless of relevance.
This is the intellectual discourse you want placed on a pedestal merely because it counts as dissent? Or the newcomer who profeeses a psychological obsession with Masnick and has lengthy conversations with himself? What benefit will this blind inclusivity give aside from affirming these lunatics?
To be fair, including a questionnaire before commenting would be a bitch, but not an issue since I actually read the articles. I think it's not unfair for posters to prove their cognitive ability before we give them the benefit of doubt that they will behave rationally. Or is competence testing something you disagree with
I can only presume by your spirited defense that you have chosen to argue on their behalf because a nerve was hit. Which, in your terms, would make you a fool. But then I'm not the one prudishly dictating terms on whether or not people should be allowed to feel offended.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
You think yourself a mighty judge of intentions when you cannot possibly know.
No, he thinks himself one vote in a crowd that will ultimately determine whether a comment is deemed trollish.
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You can disagree with the broadly-held ideologies of this site's commenter community without getting your comment flagged. Insulting other commenters, posting a shitload of nonsense, and otherwise being a detriment to the comments sections of Techdirt articles are ways to rush toward a flagging.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
If your dumb comments are such a treasure what are you doing here? Where is your successful blog? Who are you to tell everyone else that their valuation of your really dumb comments is wrong. You have the freedom to say what you want and everyone has the freedom to express their opinion of your dumb comments by downmodding it.
Much better than the anti-free speech pro-IP shills that either don't allow comments at all on their blogs or they premoderate their blogs only allowing comments they want. I will never hear you mention that at all, instead, you complain that you get down-modded for saying stupid things and wondering why no one cares about what you have to say.
If you don't like how Techdirt is moderated do better. Start your own blog. Who are you to tell someone else how they should moderate their own blog.
But no, no one wants to listen to your nonsense if you had your own blog so you must come here and derail this blog instead. Get lost.
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You are a tiring individual.
Since I suspect you are Shiva Ayyadurai (or someone working on his behalf), I would ask you this one last question, then leave you be: What did Shiva Ayyadurai have to do with inventing, developing, or popularising the electronic messaging system that became email?
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Re: You are a tiring individual.
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Re: You are a tiring individual.
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Re: You are a tiring individual.
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'You keep using that term...'
Free speech
(As a side note, I can't help but bask in the hilarity of someone that spams the comment section ranting about those darn socialists and comparing hidden comments to dead dissenters calling someone else's comment 'lunatic speech' and asking why it's allowed. And of course the delightful bit where you claim that you 'value' debates and are just so very oppressed when you have your comments reported and hidden, only to crow about how you'd happily pay money to see TD shut down. Gotta love that glaring hypocrisy.)
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Re: 'You keep using that term...'
Understanding that much of Techdirt is built on outlier opinions of business and social interactions can help you to understand why many people scoff at the stories. Contrarian economic theories are wonderful to explore, but it should also be expected that some people will disagree. Using the flag to shut down those opinions is juat plain wrong.
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Re: Re: 'You keep using that term...'
So trying to shut down discussion of those theories and ideas by insulting them (e.g., "outlier", "wacko", "contrarian") is a moral and ethical good?
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Re: Re: Re: 'You keep using that term...'
Pointing out that something us a contrarian point of view is not an insult. Its an attempt to frame the expressed opinion for what it is.
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Re: Re: 'You keep using that term...'
[citation needed]
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Re: 'You keep using that term...'
To put a fresh spin on an old phrase used around here:
Shiva Ayyadurai hates it when other people's speech about him is protected by the law.
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Where did he ever say that? Post a single example. Just one. And what does this have to do with the topic of this post?
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You hypocrite.
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[citation needed]
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Think of Russia, that's a country that pretty much shares everything
Ohhhhhh now I get it. This AC has been on high on acid and smashing his head into the walls of a CIA black site since 1967. Frankly I don't know why they gave him a computer.
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Part of what hurt Russia is the fact that their government does cater to big business and limit competition. Which is what IP does. The whole premise behind Adam Smith's book On the Wealth of Nations is that monopolies are generally bad and against free market capitalism and should only be exercised with great care. IP supporters are not in favor of capitalism at all.
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-30 Heifers Agree
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Why not both? ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
In the game of Troll Bingo, "You're just calling me a troll because I disagree with you" is the free square.
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Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
Straight in with the negative reinforcement? Sounds a bit heavy handed.
I think that particular problem could be solved easily by choice. I.e. amend the comment engine so you can collapse a comment tree or sub-tree entirely to choose not to read it.
The number of times I've given up on reading comments entirely because I can't be bothered to scroll past the 15 pages of Monty-Python-Style-Argument with a troll.... ("But this isn't an argument; it's just contradiction", "No it isn't!"). Just as people should have the choice what to post, it'd be nice to be able to skip entirely past what you choose not to read to get to what comes after.
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That's a very good idea.
Hell, maybe even collapse any tree that's more than 4 levels deep by default.
I actually use the line "An argument is a series of connected statements intended to establish a proposition. It isn't just contradiction." pretty routinely here...
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You failed the test. Please stop posting until you are better informed.
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Like for like
Serious comments are more likely to get serious responses.
Hostile comments are more likely to get sarcastic or equally heated responses(or just reported).
Long, rambling strings of replies to replies(to replies), written by the same person and laced with vitriol and just plain 'What the hell did I just read?' are more likely to get mockery and sarcasm in response, because they don't deserve serious responses.
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Re: And in response to the obvious question...
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Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
Yeah, there is a downside.
I generally like the system we see on sites like this one and Ars Technica, where enough downvotes will hide a comment, but it does lead to groupthink. I try and make a point on Ars of upvoting comments that are well-argued even if I disagree with them, but most people don't do that.
I think Slashdot's system of moderation and meta-moderation is probably the least prone to abuse, but it's also the most complicated. It wouldn't be a good fit for most comment sections.
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Re: And in response to the obvious question...
First off, Techdirt delays posts, and then when you approve a post, you post it with the original time stamp, and no indication that the comment was delayed. That usually means that those comments are so far out of the cycle of discussion that they are rarely engaged by others.
Second, with the flag system, you allow syncopates and toadies decide what is true and what is false according to Techdirt. If it was used to flag pure spam, that would be something. However, the flags are used almost exclusively to shut down unpopular thoughts and opinions.
Third, and the most important, you have a few loyal posters who will regurgitate the gospel according to Techdirt on demand. What it means is that any discussion that strays outside of the accepted borders is generally shouted down pretty quickly.
It's pretty cool. You need only a few basic filters, put everything with a link into moderation, and crowd source censorship flag style. Excellent, perhaps you could sell it to others.
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Re: Re: And in response to the obvious question...
Have some engagement.
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Yawn ... Typical Trump Attack
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Huh
Note, I did not read the article.... ;-)
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Re: Huh
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I hope this gets a spot in "Funniest Comments of the Week".
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Whatever...
This only ends one way... abused. People will never get over their desire to punish or silence people they disagree with. Often times, those screaming the loudest are the ones wanting to silence or punish others the most. We will never learn from history, and as we despise our enemies for smiling in our faces with a dagger behind their backs, we too, wait for our enemies to face away so that we may strike first!
All of this is called a self fulfilling prophecy. Technology will be used to suppress the people under the guise of protecting them. And low do the people cry yet again for a savior to spare them from themselves! It is a sorry lot indeed that runs to the slaughter thinking they shall escape it!
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Re: Whatever...
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It seems like the solution to this is not to show the toxicity score, just to hide the comment once it reaches a certain level.
The goal should be to take away attention, not bring it.
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Patents - for a LIMITED TIME!
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Re:
Sure, you claim to be in favor of capitalism but you probably also favor laws that give corporations the IP laws and broadband monopolies they ask for. Laws that prohibit me from buying out of state insurance and restrict taxi cab medallions. Some capitalist. You only want capitalism for big corporations to do what they want, you want socialism for them to get what they want and fascism for the rest of us when we are subject to the laws they negotiate and write in secret.
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But what if I see the title and WANT to say something based on it?
I wouldn't want to have to skim the whole article just to answer a few questions when there's already ideas brewing in my head.
...Hmm...maybe, what if we just had posters mark their post as 'supportive', 'having a jest', 'voicing disapproval', 'offering ideas', or so forth? And include viewing options to filter in or out those categories? So people can choose to skip over the 'this is awesome' and 'lol you suck' comments to get to the ones with funny quips and insightful ideas?
Alternatively, you could go the XKCD route and have that one with users being asked to rate other comments.
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users being asked to rate other comments
not good. factory already floods places with potential voters. every post would be a scrum, which is what trolls are hoping to have happen. ball everything up so a place has no value and is thus silenced.
the fact this site is so infested is testament to its value.
i think you are going to have to have comments moderated across the board. you guys determine what has value for the conversation.
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i think you are going to have to have comments moderated across the board. you guys determine what has value for the conversation.
TD already has that in a way, it's just the moderation is up to the community.
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tripped and fell
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Re: tripped and fell
They had a swear filter that asterisked out Senator Coons's name.
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The thing is, regardless of what means one conceives of to discard some part of a discussion, all one will get is a discourse tuned to the specific likes and dislikes of the specific person, system or algorithm employed - paying with lost opportunity to have an idea challenged, in a potentially relevant manner regardless of the tone the challenge is delivered in*, for the convenience of not having to hear what one would prefer not to. It's paring speech down to the specific likes and dislikes of the one gate-keeping entity, human or automated, and as such it's a failure by design, with no exceptions, because a single entity's criteria for what is positive and what is negative could never - and absolutely should never - be substituted for the individual judgement of each participant. Not even the "hive mind" is a suitable entity for such a task, unless one's ambitions in life amount to, putting it bluntly, being a sheep.
To be perfectly clear: yes, that means having to trawl through the arbitrary (but generally large) percentage of lesser discourse not really worth reading and all the requisite unsavory bits yourself - the whole point is that only you are qualified to decide which part is that.
Except of course what most of us would really prefer are echo chambers full of yes-men considering they make you feel good about yourself, do not require the non-negligible effort of constructing a valid argument - or potentially changing one's own views which is something basically nobody ever is willing to do - and they definitely save you the almost certain frustration of being verbally abused to hell and back. Then again, we do live in a delusional world these days where we think we can magically have all the good bits of most everything without having to put up with any of the unpleasant ones. From the entitled commoner so sure that anything bad happening to them must be _someone's_ fault who needs to be promptly sued, all the way up to our benevolent masters apparently so sure that encryption can be both secure and backdoored - this seems to be happening on every level. So I suppose "yay for our benign censors who will deliver us from anybody we don't like" it has to be - and like it or not, even the system described above is nothing but one further step in that direction...
*No, I'm no fan of verbal abuse. But there's a time for calling an idiot by its name, and I will absolutely not accept that manner detracts from the validity of the argument put forward, assuming it had any in the first place. Admittedly it's a somewhat contrived parallel, but I do think a certain mr. Torvalds seems to agree at least to some extent.
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Whatever!
Really, For a site like Techdirt to bring up the subject is a very bad sign that they are giving in to voodoo psychology. I wouldn't even post here if I did not have reasonable assurances that I was not being profiled. Profiling is a very real threat. What door one chooses for public bathrooms is only important to the kind of person who struggles with how their plumbing is supposed to work.
If civil war starts over the poo-poo debate, I won't feel a bit of remorse over those who would meddle in my relationships.
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Re: Whatever!
If Techdirt or any other website prevents you from posting a comment, that is not censorship. You can go to a different website and say the same damned thing if they will let you. No one, including you, can force a platform to host your speech — and a refusal to host your speech does not equal government censorship.
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Re: Re: Whatever!
The only type of censorship which is prohibited by the First Amendment is censorship by the government - but the only unqualified definition of "censorship" I've ever found which seems neither too broad nor too narrow boils down to "an attempt to prevent some particular audience from being exposed to some particular information", and it's certainly possible for non-government entities to do that; for example, it's entirely routine for parents to censor the material available to their children, and people often self-censor by refraining from saying something they think will get a negative reaction in their current company.
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Re: Re: Re: Whatever!
Practice what you preach. Good intentions start with you.
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Re: Whatever!
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Simple partial solution - eliminate ACs
Just eliminate ACs - if you want to comment, create an account and log in.
People can still comment "anonymously" by commenting under a different account than their usual one. (Don't prevent people from having multiple accounts.)
Then set a threshold: If > (say) 30% of your comments get flagged, your account is automatically banned for 30 days.
Trolls could still create new accounts to get back in, but the extra effort will be a big discouragement.
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Re: Simple partial solution - eliminate ACs
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Re: Re: Simple partial solution - eliminate ACs
Yes, lots of ACs make good posts. But a disproportionate number of troll comments come from ACs.
It seems that for many people anonymity strips away many of the normal human conventions of civility. Even pseudonymity (as in "OldMugwump") seems to be enough to fix that (or most of it).
Once people have a reputation, even a pseudonymous one, they take care to avoid trashing it.
I suspect if trolls started posting stuff here as "Wendy Cockcroft" you wouldn't like it.
(This thread being 3 days old, I suspect few people are reading it by now except you and me, or I wouldn't even bring up the idea.)
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In person vs Online
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Re: In person vs Online
Context has more to do with communication than the words themselves. Perception is greater than reality!
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well, I will be Honest
one law of humanity that is universal is people are basically lazy and only think of themselves first. not saying that this is bad but it seems true, any effort put forth is because it helps "self".
Comments are no different if it makes one "feel" good then it's a good comment.If it makes one feel bad it's, therefore, a bad comment. Some folks feel good complaining, some folks feel good laughing.
Everyone gets trolled at some point in life, it's part of humanity...... (and everyone has been a troll)
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Carefull...
As for a test before commenting it's an interesting idea, but i could see a couple of issues.
1. Are you testing solely on the language as used in the article? Cheating would be trivial and troll's don't die easily.
2. Are you trying to test comprehension? we all process things thru our own filters and it could create an unintended bias in the expected answers.
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Step 1: Don't write an article full of shit. Most these places dropping comments were constantly being called out in the comments for being factually incorrect, or people calling the author out for their cruelty.
Other than that though, I've got no solution for every other brand of asshole in the comment section other than moderation.
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Makes Sense
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Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
I propose that dropping comments is a lazy socialist response
Ah, so you did just change your IP address in order to spam again, I was wondering about that. You almost had me thinking for a bit there that a second person had popped up to play 'Why is everyone picking on the poor old spammer?', pity you gave yourself away with your tell.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
Well, the "arrows" he shot at Shiva Ayyadurai were pretty on point. So…
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
Because you just never know when one of those little arrows might hit someone that's rich, prideful, vindictive, talented, and relentless, like, hundreds of years relentless. He should be more respectful of others, because you just never know who you are going to run into, and when you show no respect, it may come back to haunt you, forever.
So watch what you say lest you anger some loser with money to burn who will try to ruin you for saying mean things about them. Oh yeah, that's not completely and utterly cowardly at all, and certainly isn't the sort of position that brings about massive chilling of free speech.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
If you have pride, have the pride to make your case in the open under your own name.
For sure, writing an email system at age 14 is quite an accomplishment - in any year, let alone 1978.
And I'm quite ready to believe you "invented" it independently, without knowing about things like Unix mail.
But that doesn't make make you the "inventor" of email. At best it makes you a "re-inventor" of email.
By your standard, I "invented" the queue and the linked list. And a great many other fundamental concepts in computer science.
But I didn't. These are more-or-less obvious (like email) and I re-invented them, long after others knew about them.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Nobody needs to track your IP address, Shiva.
Your particular writer's voice — the rhythm and structure of your sentences, the particular wording you (over)use, the way your usage of English reads as though you learned it as a second language, and other minor typographical tics — combined with your incessant need to keep replying to yourself with further nonsense makes IP tracking unnecessary.
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Re: Nobody needs to track your IP address, Shiva.
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Re: Re: Nobody needs to track your IP address, Shiva.
That guy is a troll. Politeness of any kind is a gift.
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Re: Nobody needs to track your IP address, Shiva.
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Might not want to celebrate filing a SLAPP suit, Shiva.
Some people are doing that here. You are not one of them.
Yes. Yes, I do.
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Re: Re: Nobody needs to track your IP address, Shiva.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Your wording gives you away, Shiva.
You know, for someone who claims not to be Shiva Ayyadurai, you sure do harp on about "truth speakers" like he does.
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Re: Your wording gives you away, Shiva.
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Your lack of humility gives you away, Shiva.
At this point, you may as well just admit who you are. I mean, even when it comes to people whose work I admire, I do not describe them as if I am writing a love letter to them.
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Re: Your lack of humility gives you away, Shiva.
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Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
Son, just give up. Mike is never going to respond to your rambling incoherency. The best you will ever get here are people either mocking you, ignoring you, or — in my case — wasting their time by telling you how much you are wasting yours.
Fawning over Shiva Ayyadurai as if he were the actual god Shiva, mentioning the state where he filed the SLAPP action against Techdirt, and continuing to write in your specific writer's voice (which is unique amongst the Techdirt commentator community) give away your identity, Mr. Ayyadurai. Why should Mr. Masnick ever respond, outside of court proceedings, to someone who is trying to sue him into both silence and homelessness?
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Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
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Re: Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
Are you referring to the deity, or the guy who falsely claimed to have invented email? Because one is an all-seeing, all-knowing, omnipotent being capable of doing anything, and the other is Shiva Ayyadurai.
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Re: Re: Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
Druids?
That's funny, Shiva — you don't look Druish.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
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Re: Mentioning Massachusetts gives you away, Shiva.
I mean, I'd much rather the case get tossed right now. But failing that...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
I could tell you how I figured out that you were the same person posting under different IP addresses, but where would be the fun in that? If you can't figure it out I'm certainly not going to help you, as it's much more entertaining to watch you jumping at shadows and spinning complex plots while waxing on(and on and on) about how so very persecuted you are when the truth is much simpler.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
Awww, let the guy who thinks himself a god have his fun.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Makes Sense
And you are doing a shitty job of it.
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Re:
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Re: Re:
Have a burial vote.
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Re: he has not even responded to my request to be able to edit posts
Take the time to get it right the first time, or live with the typos for evermore. Same as the rest of us.
Stop expecting special treatment. I invented lots of stuff too - just like millions of other young people who discover obvious and useful things (like email) but are still ignorant of the fact that other people invented those same things long ago.
There's a reason nobody got a patent on email, you know - it's obvious. Useful, yes, but obvious and so not patentable. Even for the FIRST inventor.
And why should Mike respond to your request if you can't be bothered to even let him know who it is doing the asking?
(Let alone that you're suing him...)
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Re:
And if Techdirt were operating as a government entity, you might have a point. But Techdirt is not a government entity. You cannot force Techdirt into hosting your speech, nor can you force Mr. Masnick into responding to your comments here.
We can discuss Shiva Ayyadurai's false claims of having invented email all the live-long day. But all you want to do is talk nonsense about dogs and cemeteries and Nicolas Cage, and that is when you are not worshipping Ayyadurai as one would worship a religious deity, anyway. You refuse to address any of the facts presented by Mr. Masnick in his articles. You refuse to answer direct questions about Ayyadurai's involvment with the development of ARPANET's messaging system (which would become the basis of modern email) or the development of modern email post-ARPANET.
You have been given multiple chances to address that subject — opportunities which you have refused by way of posting more stream-of-consciousness bullshit. You deserve no respect, Shiva Ayyadurai, and you will get none here. The only reason I have not yet resorted to base insults and excessive vulgarity is because you do not even deserve that.
You deserve only to be asked one question until you answer it: What factual evidence shows that Shiva Ayyadurai had anything to do with the development and widespread public adoption of the electronic messaging system that we currently call email?
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Nicholas cage:. Good or bad?
If you are that Shiva dude, I can't help but see you as the radio over Internet guy from silicon valley after reading this. But at least he became a billionaire off his obvious idea. Too bad you didn't also come up with Gmail, huh?
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Re:
There are two things that you need to know:
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Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
"If he can turn off my speech, I should be able to turn off his."
Newsflash: The community flags comments that don't add value to the conversation. You're still free to post whatever you want.
I even tried reading most of it even though it had already been flagged. Usually hidden posts catch my eye and pique my interest more than non-hidden ones because a good train-wreck is hard to look away from.
However, the sheer volume of your rambling non-sequiturs ensured that even the most curious of train-wreck aficionados would give up and invest their time in more stimulating activities.
Also, FWIW a quick search for Mike Masnick brings up a lot of links to articles about your lawsuit against him. So your wish has been granted, just maybe not in the way you intended. You've tainted his Google results just as much as he has tainted yours.
At least you're getting a first-hand lesson on the Streisand effect now. Even if you manage to win your vexatious litigation the damage that you yourself have done to your reputation is irreparable so you will still be a net loser in the case even if you prevail in the courtroom.
One of your comments was amusing though. I literally laughed out loud when I read that all of the comments from the community would be used against Mike in your lawsuit. That's a good one, really. It's like you've never read any of the articles on here or anywhere else about section 230 of the CDA. However, if you really do think the comments of his site's users can be used against Mr. Masnick your approach confuses me. Why not just post some blatantly defamatory comments about yourself as an AC and then sue over that?
Instead you build walls of text large enough to sell to Mr. Trump for his border with Mexico in a failed attempt to solicit defamatory comments from the community and then complain about a lack of debate when nobody bites and just flags your comments instead.
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Re: Re: Re: Re:
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Re: Re: Re:
What name? You have adamantly refused to reveal who you are so far, and you've already insisted that you're not Shiva Ayyadurai. Searching for "Alexander Hamilton" doesn't bring up Techdirt, not even close. Why would you care? What skin would you have in this given that nobody knows who you are, and you are absolutely insistent on making sure no one will?
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Oh, Shiva...
My view is that you must first prove his speech is false (the facts are not on your side) and defamatory (opinions are protected speech). You must also prove that he acted with malicious intent and reckless disregard for the truth (good luck with that).
On Techdirt? Yes. All of your comments about him have been either insults, expressed desires to silence his protected speech, or vague threats of harm. If you want your comments to be seen without hindrance, you are free to go anywhere else on the Internet and say whatever you want. No one can legally stop you from doing that any more than you can legally force Techdirt to un-hide your comments.
Yes, it is, Shiva. And there is a reason for that: You claimed to be "the inventor of email" and sued people for saying otherwise. Your false claims and SLAPP actions were worthy of being criticised. That Mr. Masnick said a few mean things about you when he criticised you does not mean his words become unprotected speech.
I can find no evidence that you had a direct hand in developing ARPANET's messaging system, the three major email protocols, or any further alterations and additions to email past the 1980s. And for someone who says he is the "inventor of email", your program sure as shit does not seem to have had any influence upon email's actual development or widespread adoption. Facts will not go away just because you say they are untrue, Shiva.
The same goes for Mr. Masnick's speech. Nobody sees what he says until they "ask" to see it (e.g., they open Techdirt, they search for his name in Google). Search results are based on what people are looking for, and people want to read about your baseless lawsuit against Techdirt. That sucks for you — but that is a shitty situation of your own making.
Well, at least you finally admit that you want to silence your critics.
No one is turning off your speech, Shiva. You are free to make your claims anywhere on the Internet and have them seen by anyone who wants to read them. And if you want your claims to have a "fair chance" of being considered here, you can present those claims and the evidence behind them right here. Just know that presenting claims with no basis in fact will end in criticism of your claims. Posting nothing but stream-of-consciousness bullshit, insults aimed at Techdirt's writers and commenter community, and "BUT MY FREE SPEECH" whining about your comments being flagged (which is not a violation of your right to express yourself) will result in further flagging.
If you actually want a civil conversation with people here (something I do not believe you want), make the effort to be civil. Present arguments backed by logic and facts. Let your claims be judged by their substance, regardless of the outcome. If you cannot do those things, you can go throw a self-serving pity party on Facebook for all I give a shit.
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The guy playing the part of "not Shiva" is trolling you, indeed, but is doing it quite gently. When you peel back all the talking in circles and crap, he does actually ask some reasonable questions and tried to engage people here in a discussion of what is truly free speech.
The answer from the Techdirt community isn't discussion, it's flagging. It's discussion by trying to make the other person either shut up or locking them in a room where they only talk to themselves and anyone else who cares to open the hatch to listen. Otherwise, he's a prisoner of your judgement, and others don't get to make that judgement for themselves. It proves in a very direct way that while TD talks a good game on truly free speech, it's not always tolerated here.
While I doubt highly that this guy has anything to do with the lawsuit, except perhaps having read it at some point, he has raised interesting questions.
I don't think he is right, but I do think he has the right to ask the questions and the discussion should follow if you so desire. If you don't desire, just ignore him and move along. Perhaps other people would be interested to engage him, why should you (and your flagging) make that choice for them?
(oh, and this comment posted early Sunday morning, likely moderated until Monday some time, because free speech matters!)
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Somehow I think that trolling comments increase the volume and the promotion of an article.. there are way, but do sites want to stop this interaction?
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Richard Sapir
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A Message to TechDirt Supporters
If you consider yourself a Friend of TechDirt and a supporter in its fight against Shiva Ayyadurai, you strongly should consider refraining from any further interactions with this anonymous commenter.
First, he's not Shiva Ayyadurai (a) because he said so, (b) because Shiva attended U.S. schools from childhood and likely wouldn't affect the quirky writing style, and (c) if it was, it would have stopped long ago on the advice of his lawyer.
Second, you're not going to explain anything to this commenter. We've already been through explaining that his obsessive commenting demonstrates how powerful TechDirt is in his mind (indeed, Ayyadurai thinks TechDirt is so influential that it allegedly cost him $15M), that the First Amendment does not give him a right to have his comments displayed, how SLAPP suits are contrary to the First Amendment, how flagging comments works on this site, and even referenced the obligatory XKCD comics. Your comment isn't going to break through to him, so just save it.
Third, and probably most important, this anonymous commenter has threatened to use these comments in some legal action. Whether that's just bluster, or whether he follows through, it's additional headache that TechDirt can live without right now. Every dumb argument costs money to respond to. You know he has no ground to stand on (Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act precludes any liability to TechDirt for any comment made by me or anyone else), but that's never stopped a litigant from making a dumb argument. And it certainly doesn't stop TechDirt from having to pay for a lawyer to make that argument on our behalf.
Ignore him and, eventually, he will go away.
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Re: A Message to TechDirt Supporters
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Re: Re: A Message to TechDirt Supporters
Ninja, I agree some of it has been fun. But most of it has been repetitive and redundant, saying the same thing over and over. For the record, I did write "any further interactions." Even Mike responded to him. Once.
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Re: A Message to TechDirt Supporters
I try not to respond to him. The trouble is that sometimes it's hard to tell all the anonymous trolls apart. How many do we even have? Sometimes it seems like a lot; other times I could swear it's really just two or three guys.
Hope so.
The thing about "don't feed the trolls", though, is that while most trolls get bored and go away when they don't get any attention, some trolls take it as a cue to escalate until it's impossible to ignore them any longer.
Hopefully people will ignore him and we'll get a chance to see which one he is. Guess it's been a couple days since we last saw him, so that's a good start.
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Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 12th, 2017 @ 9:14pm
In the end very few companies except those who profit from a more socialized spead of content and information are interested. Even those who do seem reluctant to do anything anymore. Most of the other Floor64 projects such as step2, the cowd source business plan thing, and even the copia institute thing are all but shuttered, all signs of a shortage of funds and staff.
So you don't have to worry most of the money birds have long since flown this coop.
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Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 12th, 2017 @ 9:14pm
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Re: Re: Response to: Anonymous Coward on Mar 12th, 2017 @ 9:14pm
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Now with Shiva Ayyadurai thrown into the mix it's like the above three trolls had a massive orgy, gave birth to triplets, and now the triplets are having an orgy in the articles. It's a train wreck.
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I don't know if this is a good idea
I forget where I read it, but one commenting system (maybe Disqus) came up with a system where people would flag abusive and troll comments. If the comment got enough flags, it wouldn't show up in the discussion.
Okay, sure, most commenting systems work that way, but the revolutionary part was that the comment still visible to only the troll. Then if he got enough downvotes, his entire account would be flagged a s troll... but he would still be allowed to post comments.
And since the troll would think his comments were still being posted, he wouldn't complain that he was being "censored"- instead, it would look like people were simply ignoring him. After a while of getting no responses, he'd give up and move on to another website where he'd get attention.
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Re: I don't know if this is a good idea
Your idea sounds great, but it's too obvious. It also shows bad volition on the part of the site, which is something that Mike and his crew are really careful to avoid. Their censorship tools are much more subtle, they call them "public votes" and "spam filters" when they really are just tools of censorship.
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Re: Re: I don't know if this is a good idea
Funny how you delight in Shiva hitting back at Techdirt's criticism, but you are angry that nobody wants to hear about your grudge against Masnick. Wonder why that is?
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