FCC Plan To Use Thanksgiving To 'Hide' Its Attack On Net Neutrality Vastly Underestimates The Looming Backlash
from the there's-no-hiding-from-this dept
Numerous reports have indicated that the FCC intends to try and hide its attack on net neutrality behind the looming Thanksgiving holiday. The agency is expected to either unveil its formal plan on Wednesday while Americans are distracted by holiday preparations, or potentially on Friday, while Americans are busy shopping for black Friday bargains. Regardless of when it's unveiled, the announcement will involve unveiling a formal date to vote to finally kill the rules, currently expected to be December 15:
"It's a devilishly brilliant plan by the FCC and its chairman, Ajit Pai, who has made no secret of his wish to undo the benchmark rules put in place during Barack Obama's presidency. There will inevitably be plenty of people already enjoying their holiday break, and any major coverage on Wednesday will then be lost to a day of turkey, gravy, football, and indigestion, followed by three more days in which people won't be looking at the news."
Except this obfuscation plan isn't "devilishly brilliant," it's a massive underestimation of the brutal backlash awaiting the broadband industry and its myopic water carriers. Survey after survey (including those conducted by the cable industry itself) have found net neutrality has broad, bipartisan support. The plan is even unpopular among the traditional Trump trolls over at 4chan /pol/ that spent the last week drinking onion juice. It's a mammoth turd of a proposal, and outside of the color guard at the lead of the telecom industry's sockpuppet parade -- the majority of informed Americans know it.
Net neutrality has been a fifteen year fight to protect the very health of the internet itself from predatory duopolists like Comcast. Killing it isn't something you can hide behind the green bean amandine, and it's not a small scandal you can bury via the late Friday news dump. This effort is, by absolutely any measure, little more than a grotesque hand out to one of the least competitive -- and most disliked -- industries in America. Trying to obfuscate this reality via the holidays doesn't change that. Neither does giving the plan an Orwellian name like "Restoring Internet Freedom."
It's abundantly clear that if the FCC and supporters were truly proud of what they were doing, they wouldn't feel the need to try and hide it. If this was an FCC that actually wanted to have a candid, useful public conversation about rolling back net neutrality, it wouldn't be actively encouraging fraud and abuse of the agency's comment system. To date, the entire proceeding has been little more than a glorified, giant middle finger to the public at large, filled with scandal and misinformation. And the public at large -- across partisan aisles -- is very much aware of that fact.
Consumers, small businesses, and those interested in keeping the internet open, healthy and competitive will remember this severe of a shafting. It's going to inform policy conversations and voting decisions (especially among Millennials) for years to come. This isn't something that can be hidden between the cranberry sauce and Grandpa Jones' corn bake surprise, and the fact that Ajit Pai's staff thinks that's even possible highlights how absurdly out of touch the current FCC actually is.
Many people obviously believed that the net neutrality conversation was over when the FCC crafted the 2015 rules, and that they could subsequently tune out because the fight had been won.
But net neutrality isn't a conversation that begins or ends when rules are created or destroyed. Since net neutrality is just a symptom of the disease that is a lack of broadband competition, this is a battle that will persist for as long as said lack of broadband competition exists, and for as long as companies like Comcast attempt to abuse it. With Pai at the helm, that's certainly not changing anytime soon. In fact, with the gutting of privacy protections, net neutrality rules, and a blind federal and state eye turned toward cable's growing monopoly over broadband, it's going to get notably worse.
Supporters of net neutrality also need to understand that the broadband industry's assault on net neutrality is a two-phase plan. Phase one is having an unelected bureaucrat like Ajit Pai play bad cop with his vote to dismantle the rules. Phase two will be to gather support for a net neutrality law that professes to be a "long-standing solution to this tiresome debate." In reality, this law will be written by ISP lobbyists themselves as an attempt to codify federal apathy on this subject into law. These weaker protections will be designed to be so loophole-filled as to effectively be useless, preventing the FCC from revisiting the subject down the road. A solution that isn't -- for a problem they themselves created.
It's understandable that the public and press is tired of this debate after fifteen years. But instead of hand wringing and apathy, we should be placing the blame for this endless hamster wheel at the feet of those responsible for it: Comcast, AT&T, Verizon and Charter, and the army of lawmakers, economists, fauxcademics, and other hired policy tendrils willing to sell out the health of the internet -- and genuinely competitive markets -- for a little extra holiday cash. Folks that honestly believe they can lie repeatedly with zero repercussion, and hide a giant middle finger behind the gluten-free stuffing and Aunt Martha's cardboard-esque pumpkin pie.
Make no mistake: net neutrality is likely a permanent battle against telecom duopolists with a vested interest in abusing a lack of broadband competition. It's a battle for a healthy, open internet, truly competitive markets, and the right to innovate without Comcast, Verizon or AT&T interference. The decision to ignore the will of the public and kill existing, popular net neutrality rules is going to pour napalm on that fire, not extinguish it.
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Filed Under: ajit pai, fcc, net neutrality, telco fuckery
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you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
I applaud Ajit Pai and his principled approach to allow market forces to continue to allow market forces to control the evolution of the internet.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
But let's follow your path of reasoning. Why limit yourself to Internet? Stop regulate the drug production - let the "market forces" to control the evolution of pharmaceuticals. Disband FDA. After all if the company says the anti-emetic pain relief if safe, it surely is. The market forces will drive another Chemie Grünenthal out of the market after some other Thalidomide. Eventually. Or not, considering they are still operating.
And why would you need FCC? Wifi interfering with the airport radar? Well, the market forces will fix that. After a crash or two.
Are you sure the market forces will keep your job as a Ajit puppet for much longer? Your above feeble attempts at licking his backside might fail to impress.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Nice alias Pai, do yourself a favor, and "hoovis" your "burt" out of office before we do it for you.
You're a corporate shill, willing to fuck over everyone else in the name of self-enrichment, and nothing more. You are a disgrace to yourself and your fellow citizenry, for which you should be punished.
This is absolutely not a 'principled approach' to the regulating the internet. The only reason why those 'doomsday scenarios' you're talking about haven't happened yet is because of regulation, not in spite of it. Removing those regulations would allow for all sorts of price gouging and abuse. Of course, there is no point in explaining this to a corporate stooge like you, who only seeks profits for himself, and would call such behavior a "profit center" or "good business" despite the harm done to society as a whole.
Get the fuck out. You have no business here if your sole goal is to tear everything down.
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"Restoring Internet Freedom"
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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If only there was some other way to learn about stuff...
There will inevitably be plenty of people already enjoying their holiday break, and any major coverage on Wednesday will then be lost to a day of turkey, gravy, football, and indigestion, followed by three more days in which people won't be looking at the news."
They are absolutely right, the only reason people know about Pai's attempt to kill off network neutrality rules is because of the extensive, non-John Oliver coverage it's received. As such if people aren't stuck to their tv's they will have absolutely no way to know when Pai tries to sneak something through, no way to make their displeasure heard, and no way to tell others about it.
Not to mention, with no expectation that Pai would try to slip something through that the public would object to there will be absolutely no reason for people to be extra watchful just in case he tries something, so if he does it will come as a complete surprise.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Because you still have net neutrality, which is something that's been in place since the internet was invented. The rules you're arguing against are to prevent corporations from leveraging defacto monopolies to curb free speech and prevent competition in the markets they operate (which extend well outside the ISP market). The "doomsday" scenarios will happen when those rules are removed, not before, which is why it's so important to have a meaningful discussion based on facts now, not based on the fictions you've been fooled into believing.
I know this is probably a troll, just putting that there in case anyone was confused. It's sad really. People like this actually exist, and will happily vote their rights away to corporations if they can be convinced the government is trying to take them. Then probably blame the "other team" in government rather than demanding their representatives fix the problem.
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The problem is the FCC
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whiners
You are not wanting a candid convo either. All you whine for is uncontrolled legislation.
I would rather live with capitalist monopolies instead of the regulatory monopolies we have now. The government is literally standing behind the telco while they fuck us over and you silly fucks want to keep giving the people that created the problem more power and control.
Pai is everything you asked for and you have been warned for decades. You didn't listen then and you sure as fuck are not listening now.
lay in your bed quietly, you made it!
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Re: fifteen year fight
I think Ajit Pai is not really too clear on the loyalty his benefactors have for him. I can't conceive of a better fall guy. He just seems to have no self awareness whatsoever.
What your looking at is an FCC parallel to what the SEC was during the 2008 financial collapse. Some smiling dipshit asleep at the switch while a whole domestic economic sector burns.
The question is what the next phase is. Because of course they will have planned for what comes after the liquidation of the 1st amendment.
My guess is the next phase is to kill the public Internet. At which point the only response is the development of a whole parallel network to support the next generation public Internet, which will almost surely be 100% crypto.
Which the fed will declare to be a crime. Probably reffing the Obamacare SCOTUS precedent. Forcing people to use a particular telecom carrier exclusively will be a "tax", and not a violation of article 1, the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 13th amendments.
But yeah. Time to dig out that old zoom modem. Because if this toad wins, we are going back to the stone age. And you will be able to speak freely, but only over ciphered 56Kbs.
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Re: whiners
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Re: whiners
No, Pai made it. We're being forced to sleep in it by a bunch of Trumptards. (The president appoints the FCC chairman. It's not an elected position.) You bet your ass we're going to be loud about it.
Really? OK, then when the insurance company says they are not covering your latest medical expense at all good luck with paying the expenses out of pocket. Also, have fun paying to drive on each street everyday twice a day as you go to and from work, on a salary of whatever pittance they decide you're worth. Don't forget to pay the police officer his bribe or that "friend" of his might show up, and then you'll need to pay the firefighter, and the EMTs.
You Capitalist Maximists have a very broken and ultimately unworkable vision for how society should operate. Namely: "F' yours, got mine." Guess what? You should be happy with Pai. After all, he's a paid corporate shill working on their behalf. He's literally implementing what you want: A capitalist monopoly. It's just being enforced by the government, instead of a bunch of Rentacops. Or were the Rentacops the thing you were counting on to make everything work in your vision?
They'd still be standing there in your scenario. The problem is the Capitalists who don't give a shit about the society that gave them their wealth, then whine and complain when society demands that they do. Yeah, the economic model doesn't explicitly require you to give a shit, but the basic underpinnings of society do. Don't like it? You're free to do business in another country that's more accepting of your screwing them over, but something tells me your greed will catch up to you eventually. You can't constantly screw others over without penalty, eventually they fight back.
No, we "whine" for legislation that gives everyone a fair shot at the market. We "whine" to protect startups from unfair barriers to entry and double dipping created by established incumbents. We "whine" to ensure that companies can't exploit someone's health crisis to make a buck. We "whine" to ensure that the public isn't scammed and overcharged for poor or non-existent goods and services. We "whine" because we want a fair market that the Capitalist Monopolies seek to destroy for their own self-benefit at everyone else's expense.
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Unfortunately, the fact is this - on subject like this, people armed with facts are rather frustrated at being over-ridden by outright fiction such as that presented by the OP. Especially when it's not theory - effective regulation is proven to work across the globe, while unfettered capitalist only leads to robber barons.
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In that case, the battle will persist as long as politicians can be bought by corporations.
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FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
https://www.fcc.gov/document/chairman-pai-proposes-restore-internet-freedom
It even includes the preemption of state rules. Talk about being a hypocritical zealot!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Your "regulations" have lead to the very monopolies you claim you seek to prevent. You are like that doctor that says "this won't hurt a bit" right before you amputate someone legs without anesthetic. And when they start complaining you tell them that is all in their head.
What do you call someone like you that keeps trying the same thing over and over and over again but expects different results?
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: Re: Re: whiners
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Re: FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
Exactly, the problem is that too many other people have been allowing their side be hypocritical without putting a stop to it that this is all we are going to get going forward.
All we are going to get now, is one hypocrite vs another hypocrite. It's literally what made me disgusted with both political parties. Both claim to care while their actions say otherwise. I have no idea why people continue to listen to these in your face liars.
Fool me once... shame on you.
Fool me for the umpteenth time... seriously guys... stop letting them take you for a ride. Ajit is driving the bus and you keep getting back on while saying you don't want to ride it anymore!
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Re: Re: FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
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would it not be better to lay the blame squarely at the feet of those in government who, instead of doing their jobs, listening to and catering for the good of the people, are actually selling us out in return for 'campaign contributions' from the members of the industry mentioned above and brown envelopes of cash for themselves? if put into the position of potentially losing their gravy train positions, would they perhaps not think a little harder before screwing us over every time the subject of broadband comes up?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
I'm sorry that people like you would rather have it all sold to corporate monopolies than allow effective regulation because you're scared of your own elected officials. But, there it is.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Nice fake account Pai. Damn Dirtbag.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
I have offered at least some detail on my position, you have offered none. What good is a person that offers only vitriol but does not describe the particular thing on which they offer it. Do you discount a person entirely when it is only the one thing you might disagree with?
The moment you feel that someone is not worth addressing is the moment you have lost. Entire civilizations have fallen through your logic.
"Eternal Vigilance" is the price of liberty, which is why you have less of it. Oppression has taken the spot where you vigilance once stood and you have invited it in by way of the front door under the guise of "regulation".
This is how all things usurp each other. Under the guise of giving to you, it will take instead. A citizen and their liberties are soon parted by a promise making politician.
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Re: If only there was some other way to learn about stuff...
I do notice that they waited until right after his season ended to make the announcement.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
What "market forces" are you referring to, specifically?
Can you name a place in the United States that has effective free-market competition, where consumers have their choice of at least 3 ISPs, and as a result they have access to higher-quality service at lower prices?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
"I enjoy internet faster and cheaper and with more effective competition, completely due to government regulation."
Then you are well deluded. All I need to do to trick a person like you is to show you that "I" take Less from you than "those guys" and you become complacent. You are still being taken from... just less.
"I'm sorry that people like you would rather have it all sold to corporate monopolies than allow effective regulation because you're scared of your own elected officials. But, there it is."
Well, if you are going to lie or misrepresent someone, might as well go for the gold.
I advocate for a free-market approach. people like you often confuse that with the perils of capitalism. But that is okay, you clearly lack comprehensive critical thinking skills.
you see, even if you get a politician to take care of your problems for you, you are still not absolved of the responsibility of those problems.
Your view of the US is only through these media lenses and they are distorted the same way you are, which makes you a perfect parrot.
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Re: preemption of state rules
Poles and rooftops are going to starting looking like shanty-town electrical grids. Illegal ad-hoc public networks are going to start popping up everywhere.
When we first started building the Internet, it was revolutionary in the scientific sense. Now it is going to be revolutionary in the political sense. And criminal, which is kind of cool.
Do I get street cred for patching cat5 now?
The long and short of it is this: there are more people who can patch cable then there are policemen and G-men who can tell one cable from another.The inevitable evolution is municiple carrier neutral CO's. Which really should be the case in every neighborhood in the country already.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Yawn.
I'll take the highly verifiable information about how much I have access to compared to the average American, and notice that it's usually more. Some of this is down to other factors, but the free market where I live is very well served compared to the monopoly and duopoly-ridden crap you lot have to put up with. In fact, the main reason I have fibre at all is because the government told them they needed to install it in my area, the guys you support wouldn't have done that at all given free reign. Now, they not only did that, they've been forced to compete as well.
"Your view of the US is only through these media lenses and they are distorted the same way you are, which makes you a perfect parrot."
No, it's through the friends and family I have there that will also tell you how full of shit you are.
One of the funniest things about delusional fools like yourself is that you will argue with the first hand experiences of people in other places, telling them they're wrong for relaying the facts of those experiences to you. No wonder you're on a race to the bottom.
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Timing is obvious
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Hey shill, I only have ONE CHOICE FOR INTERNET PROVIDER. That's not a free market. Ajit Pai and his ilk have created the perfect closed market where I CANNOT vote with my dollar -- that's the EXACT OPPOSITE of a free market.
If it isn't a free market in every element of it, then it isn't at all a free market.
While I agree with the sentiment that regulatory manipulation is a bad thing, you can't tell me the doomsday scenarios aren't going to happen WHEN THEY'RE HAPPENING RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE. The duopolists/monopolists have control of every mile of Internet on-ramp, access roads, highways, business routes, etc. EVERY SINGLE MILE!!!! That means they can brow-beat me on how much data I download, and how much data Netflix transmits, and when they have no oversight on how they do that brow-beating, i.e., no net neutrality rules whatsoever, no one can change their behavior.
Well, we could all become luddites I guess and disconnect from the Internet entirely.
Free market forces only work when they surround a market from all sides and can effectively influence behavior by allowing the consumers of the market to dictate supply and demand. That simply doesn't exist here.
In the absence of a truly free market, you need regulatory interference because no one else has any power to change market behavior. Ugh, I hate that I just defended regulatory interference, but that's what we're forced into due to decades of cronyism and industry shills in the FCC. It is really the result of HAVING the FCC, a group of people that has NEVER regardless of who has been in power, looked at the long term telecommunications needs of this nation and looked to implement a market that can support change and growth. EVER.
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Nothing to do with Thanksgiving
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Re: Re: fifteen year fight
Private Loon Balloons maybe? A privately funded fleet of balloons might be a way around this.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Other countries have figured out that this is NOT a good situation and have legislated/regulated to avoid it. As a direct result of that, they enjoy (variously) higher speeds, lower prices, expanded choices, and equal treatment of all traffic. Often they enjoy all of them simultaneously.
This in turn has benefits for their entire society, from making telecommuting much more feasible (thus reducing time wasted commuting, energy expenditures, and pollution) to enabling startups to compete on a level playing field with much larger and older operations. It's not perfect -- but you'll notice that NONE of them are clamoring to move toward the US model. They like where they find themselves.
The Internet has become, in many ways, a shared public utility that operates for the common good -- like highways and sewage treatment plants and municipal water supplies and fire departments. If we're serious about relying on it in the same way that we rely on those operations, then it needs to be regulated like they are: for the good of the public.
I wish that wasn't necessary. It'd be great if it just happened because everyone recognized that it's the right thing to do, and they decided to do it all on their own. That hasn't happened. It's not happening. It's not going to happen. So the choice is either (a) keep indulging in wishful thinking and hoping that the free market fairy will sprinkle magic pixie dust on the Verizons and Comcasts and Charters of the world or (b) recognize that in the real world, the only entity capable of taking practical steps to ensure this outcome is the government.
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Re: Re: Re: whiners
Get over yourself, you realize he's got a point. You realize Trump voters are particularly unpopular in this circle. Take the L and move on, we're all on the same stretching rack.
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Re: Re: FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Reddit readers love this post.
Net neutrality is a very quaint fixation. The only thing Title II accomplished for the American people was to speed up the propagation of the fake news that elected Donald Trump. Good show, fans of fictitious causes.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Hah! You flaming morons really don't have any self-awareness.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
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Re: Re: Re: fifteen year fight
Verizon isn't a telecom so much as a sovereign state. The way you know that is it is based in fortress manhattan with all the banks. So it isn't surprising that these guys think they can jackboot the countries jugular. Their pals across the street did in 2008. And they got away with it. And they did it before than in the 70's and got away with it. (barely)
I am just hoping that when the music stops this time, it isn't a controlled crash like in 2008. The trinity worked like animals to control the public when all that went on, and they were successful. Looking back on it, what the trinity of cabal news accomplished was certainly the greatest feat of propaganda since 1939.
But I think the country is past the point where we are willing to let that kind of shit show happen again. Time will tell.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
You're an asshole. There's the door.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Secondly, it is actually quite valid to not address someone when to do so is totally pointless and actually would be further detrimental to society if they did address them. For example, the schoolyard bully, in most cases, the best way to deal with them is to ignore them since a lot of the time what they are after is attention and if they don't get it, they eventually leave you alone. Addressing them would only escalate matters. Entire civilizations have fallen due to this as well. (citation needed)
You are correct, "Eternal Vigilance" is the price of liberty, which is why we in America have more of it than many other nations. This is why everyone is so upset over this, because we ARE being vigilant and removing any oversight from ISP's to steamroll over us is something that would damage our liberties. Hence we are trying to stop it.
I think you misunderstand the conversation taking place here. We aren't buying into some politician's promises and blindly following their lead that will give up our freedom and liberties. Many of us work in IT or other technical fields where we deal with all of these issues on a daily basis. We know how the internet and networks work and we know that what ISP's want to do would destroy the internet as we know it, and the only thing stopping them from doing so are net neutrality rules.
How the internet works is completely open and not hard to understand if you take the time to learn. Almost every single technology company or internet startup understands this and opposes rolling back net neutrality. These people are not ignorant or misinformed, they are the experts who have built much of what the internet is today. The people who generally oppose things such as net neutrality are generally people who do not understand how the internet was built, formed, and currently operates. They also tend to be not very technologically proficient.
We are not asking for anything to be given to us, we already have it. We are trying to protect it because ISP's are trying to take it away from us. We can't "vote with our wallets" because many of us only have one ISP in town (the definition of a monopoly). Therefore, the only recourse is to have a higher power lay down some ground rules for how ISP's can treat their customers and the internet. The same phrase can be applied to you "A citizen and their liberties are soon parted by a promise making politician". Pai promises to "give us back internet freedom", however, history and the actual, fully verifiable facts say otherwise. The only people blindly following a politician's promises are those who support Pai and his plan to remove net neutrality rules.
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Re: Reddit readers love this post.
Says the guy who's been trolling posts about net neutrality on multiple websites for 11 years.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Don't give in to the troll arguments. The ISPs are very much looking to make the doomsday scenarios a reality as much as they can (are not slapped for).
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Because you don't want it. You want government to make those decisions for you. What do you do when that politician takes advantage?
This is a problem of our own making, the problem is not if it goes well or not... the problem is undoing the damage when the corruption gets bad enough to become just like America.
Free-Market didn't work because it is not allowed. We don't have a free market everything down to the labels on your food is regulated.
TD is a website dedicated to reporting on the disasters of regulation about Speech, Patent, Copyright, Trademark, and things like Net Neutrality but still supports the idea of getting MORE of what brought this problem.
You don't believe in a free market because it has become the boogeyman. A Non-existent creature you can blame all your problems caused by regulation on so you don't have to face reality. Better to keep your feet of the floor... the boogeymen might get ya! Out of fear of the unknown that Free-Market allows you willingly embrace a lesser capable more controlled and closer to monopoly form of economy... and all because some suit in a tie make you a promise.
I can put on a suit and a tie and lie to you as well, but I have integrity. Enough to refuse to lie and enough to refuse to buy them!
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Re: Reddit readers love this post.
I will gladly take my fake news with Title II since (if you actually bothered to read the net neutrality rules, which you obviously have not) because I can easily filter out all the fake news and not have to worry about my ISP filtering my content or slowing down my connection to my favorite services just because I (or those services) don't pay them king's ransom every month for it.
And if people are not smart enough to do a little research to verify what news is fake or not, then we have an entirely different problem.
I say good day sir!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
I have offered plenty, but the mantra for you guys is to always advance the lie that I never have... at least your lies are consistent... I will give you that.
"While no one is disputing that OVER regulation is bad and WORKING free market is good and preferrable,"
Okay another lie, the constant mantra is "free-market bad" and you know it... at least make the lies less obvious just read the other posts here that talk about the constant "failures" of free market. They are blaming free-market for the failure of regulation and the greed of capitalism. Both are dual pronged efforts to destroy free-market because no one wants free market.
"This is why everyone is so upset over this, because we ARE being vigilant"
You can say you are, but your actions clearly tell another tale. You cannot say you are vigilant about liberty in the same breath your actions lead to giving it up.
"We aren't buying into some politician's promises and blindly following their lead that will give up our freedom and liberties."
That is exactly what you are doing and constantly to that effect as well, which is why it was so easy to predict the like of Ajit Pai and Trump. I have been warning people for more than a decade that this was coming but everyone called me crazy. Now that it is here people hate me even more because I have the gall to say "i told you so" and I still get ignored.
Hence my current predicament with trying to explain to you folks that before we can fix this, enough people have to drop their admiration for regulation and corrupt politicians.
Because you guys are so fearful, it is easy to control you with empty promises and political bluster! You roll right over for the bell rub right as they gut you!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Additionally, some people have severe allergies to certain food products and very few people know all the ingredients to a packet of pudding. Therefore labels are necessary so people don't accidentally kill themselves with a tasty meal.
And some people, who know a thing or two about diet and food ingredients, want to make sure they eat healthy and need to know what is in their food to do that.
So no, regulation and a free market are not two things that can't live in concert with each other. Without regulation, your cellphone would interfere with electronics on an airplane or airport and cause crashes and other catastrophes. Without regulation, drug companies could put rat poison in birth control and sell it without fear of reprisal. Without regulation, highways, power and water lines could be built or repaired with subpar materials causing all kinds of infrastructure collapse. Without regulation, Joe Bloe down the street could start a contracting company and build houses with whatever tree branches he found in his backyard and wire it up with exposed wiring right below the water faucet.
Do you get it now? Not all regulation is bad, not all of it is good, but just because regulation is proposed doesn't make it automatically bad.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Plus high bandwidth wireless opens the door to more municipalities rolling their own, as the upfront infrastructure is much lower than fiber. So smaller communities become viable markets for regional service providers, and it's easier for communities to get over the state regulatory hurdles like "no tax dollars" and public referendums that have been imposed at the state level.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
I have a very real fear of AT&T telling me what news, information, and debates I can and cannot see and participate in. That is straight up 1984 shit right there. Now when you look at the bigger picture with the Sinclair situation, well...
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Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
"Take the L and move on, we're all on the same stretching rack."
The difference is that you brought this stretching rack while I was trying to warn you against it.
Hench, this is the bed you helped make... you should lay in it!
And I am not a Trump voter either... another constant accusation you like to make, but you sure deserve him for your President because of it.
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Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
you are a fucking clown.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
You are already more than full of it.
"The Baby Bells did not start competing with each other, they formed regional monopolies of phone services, then they started offering internet. That should have been regulated right then and there."
You do realize that they were already regulated from a long time ago right? Additionally, this is a sign of "failure" of regulation.
How have you been so well fooled? It's like a politician punched you square in the face and they managed to make you think it was your own mothers fault.
the FCC since it's inception made it clear that they intended to regulate the Telco as natural monopolies. AT&T has bought you, your politicians, and your sanity a long time ago. You don't even understand that your playing for the AT&T team, they have tricked you into support regulation so they can pull your chair away from the bargaining table by giving it to a politician they can BUY!
"I have a very real fear of AT&T telling me what news, information, and debates I can and cannot see and participate in."
News, information, and debates are "well curated" bits of information. Did you know that the politicians debating for your viewing pleasure have all been prescript-ed? You are being led around by the nose like a lost child and you don't even know it!
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Re: Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
The fact that that rulemaking received the most amount of public comments in FCC history (until this year) saying he was going in the wrong direction as well had absolutely nothing to do with it I'm sure.
Try again Richard.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Ajit Pai's oath,
Beyond that there really is no need for argument.The same can be said for the rest of the FCC board if they should vote that way.
So the question is not about NN, so much as: Why is this guy not being hauled before an ethics committee, or perhaps the federal BAR?
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Shouldn't this read "Since the endangerment of net neutrality is just a symptom..."?
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He predicted this problem like it was a prophecy. Liberty is being ruined by the left vs right hypocritical struggle.
None of you are self thinking, you are all little sheep parroting your political parties mantra's... THAT is what makes you the same, not the misleading names you have assigned to your selves!
You don't care about liberty or the Constitution, you only care that you get what you want. You only want liberty for yourself while everyone else has to follow the rules. And you are more than fine if your elected officials are evil and corrupt as long as they get you a little something along the way. You elect and worship evil people to tell you what to do and how to live and then whine when they turn out bad... whoops... shocker there.. you were only warned several millions times.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Read the link. It actually is already happening in other parts of the world where these rules do not exist. You really should look outside just the US before making these kind of statements.
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That said, let's deal with reality.
Reality: If it isn't the law, it is easily changed. Where are the congress critters? Where is Wyden? Strange level of silence from that corner!
If you want net neutrality for real, put it in law. Without that, the discussion is meaningless because it will change every time the commissioner of the FCC gets bad gas. It requires nothing more than a simple show of hands from a captive commission.
Also, the "overwhelming backlash" thing has me going. What exactly is the backlash going to be at? Are you guys going to vote Pai out of office? Oh wait, you didn't vote him in. Are you going to drop your internet connections and go back to reading books? Are you going to get mad at your congress critters and then re-elect the same ones next time around?
Seriously, what is the actual and honest leverage here? Pai doesn't care, he's got the job and it's his to keep at least until Trump's term is done. He's not going anywhere, and there doesn't seem to be any move to change that.
So aside from the hand waving, what is there really?
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Re: Ajit Pai's oath,
You want them up on ethics violations... put your self up first for having voted these scum in!
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"Are you going to drop your internet connections and go back to reading books?"
They don't have the integrity to stand up for what they believe in... they want a politician to save them from themselves so they don't have to do anything hard like boycotting.
"So aside from the hand waving, what is there really?"
Crying and whining... because that is about all they can do. On a more positive note... they will be more willing next election to vote in a person more corrupt than Trump... as long as that dirtbag hates Trump.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
If I remember my history correctly, the FCC broke up the National Broadcasting Company, which had a radio monopoly. They split up into 3 companies, The National Broadcasting Company (NBC), American Broadcasting Company (ABC), and Columbia Broadcasting Systems (CBS)
Now I will agree with you that it was a failure of regulation, but that doesn't mean that we should subsequently have NO regulation, as failure of regulation equates to no regulations at all, hence our point of needing USEFUL regulations. Over-regulating is just as bad as under-regulating. Ajit Paid Off is completely deregulating, which is worse.
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Secondly, the election of Trump is what placed Pai in office and I would be willing to bet that almost no one on these forums voted for Trump. So your last statement is just flat out absurd, since no one arguing with you is likely to have voted "these scum" in in the first place.
Thirdly, and I hesitate to even touch this one, no one is calling him a traitor, you said those words. However, the things Pai has done and said in office do border if not outright cross what should be allowed under the law of the Constitution of the United States, and morally and ethically there is more than enough evidence publicly available to question his legal ethics. Therefore, anyone from either side of the aisle calling for closer scrutiny of him is not the voice of "ignorant sheeple", it is people recognizing that what he is doing is wrong and wanting him to be called to account for it. Whether they originally supported him or not is irrelevant.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
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Again, logic dictates that likely no one here voted for Trump. Many probably didn't even vote for Clinton, so your last statement is at best ignorant and at worst deliberately malicious.
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If you have only one ISP, perhaps you live in the wrong place. Your desire for your own white picket fence and a long commute to town is what will get you every time.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
Try again Richard.
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Re: Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
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Re: Re: Ajit Pai's oath,
We know what is going to happen. The carriers are going to start licensing Americans eyeballs to one another, instead of licensing pipe to everyone. And this is going to to destroy the public Internet as we know it.
This is a clinically measurable thing. So if the FCC as so sure about the benefits of "market forces", we can be assured they that have been using some technology to measure those "market forces". And to measure the effects that their policies have on Constitutionally protected speech.
Right?
They are in the comm business. They should know a little about how to metric communications systems. So where is the data? What means do they plan to use to track the results of the impending economic catastrophe they are so motivated to manufacture?
So what your looking at is a declaration of political philosophy with no data driven basis, driving a fundamentalist attack on the U.S. Constitution. There is a word for that, and it isn't "traitor".
Close though.
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I live in a city of 100,000+ with a ten minute drive to work solely because there are many stop signs and stop lights in between. I have exactly one, count them, one cable internet provider and one DSL provider. The DSL service is nowhere near fast enough to support my work connection, nor is it as reliable as the cable provider. Additionally, both the cable and DSL providers are two of the biggest telco's in the country.
So no, I live in an average city like the majority of Americans, I don't live out in the boonies and have a short commute to work and still can't vote with my wallet because even if my other choice of ISP was viable as far as speed goes, I still wouldn't be boycotting anything because I'm just paying the other big guy in town who is doing the same thing as the cable company.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
Please provide a quote to your previously stated detailed response. I'll wait.
"Okay another lie, the constant mantra is "free-market bad" and you know it".
Actually, I don't know it. I would be without a job if it wasn't for the free market and America wouldn't exist as we know it today. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't automatically mean they are lying.
"You can say you are, but your actions clearly tell another tale. You cannot say you are vigilant about liberty in the same breath your actions lead to giving it up."
The Bill of Rights is essentially, regulation. But it is good regulation stating that these are the rights people have by default and you can't infringe them. The net neutrality rules are the same. They state that people have a right to access any legal content they want without fear of being infringed upon "blocked or throttled".
"That is exactly what you are doing and constantly to that effect as well, which is why it was so easy to predict the like of Ajit Pai and Trump."
This makes no sense, I didn't vote for Trump and most others on here didn't either. Neither did I vote for Clinton and potentially neither did many others on here as well given their past comments and positions. So what exactly are you trying to say?
"Because you guys are so fearful, it is easy to control you with empty promises and political bluster!"
Again, many of us work in the IT industry, we aren't following some politician's lead. We are familiar with the technology and how it works ourselves.
I am curious who you think we are following, exactly, as there hasn't been one specific politician (other than Wheeler and potentially Wyden) who has really beat the drum on net neutrality. The only specific people you have mentioned are Pai and Trump and we have made it quite clear we did not vote for or support them. So who is it that is supposedly leading us all astray?
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We all deserve the freedom to keep our country from slipping away. We all deserve the rights to speak and not be hurt for saying what's right. The integrity of our thoughts is not locked behind who has more money. Our political systems are abusing the time periods of our lives. Those older than 25 are distracted by family. Those 20 - 24 are distracted by being forced into minimum wage and worrying about college. Those who grew up with the internet are suddenly too busy to make their voices heard.
The legislative branch needs checked. People are ignoring their freedoms and rights in exchange for gains. They are not putting the forefathers of the country and values we declared independence for first. We need more of the young, computer savvy in congress who are not motivated by money. Unfortunately, they silence their voices to suck up to those already in congress. They're dissuaded from saying the right thing because media pretends what they are saying is as bad as Edward Snowden's whistle-blowing, even if what they are actually saying is middle-of-the-road. It is blown out of proportion with the excuse of maintaining security clearance as the limiting factor.
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Re: Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
That said, according to the majority of the comments on the article you linked, what is actually being offered are packages that let you use those groups of apps without touching your 10 GBs of mobile data. Apparently you are not restricted from using these services without the special package, but it will use up your data if you do. Now, I don't know any Portuguese, so I can't research into this to find out if this is the case, but the overwhelming majority of comments indicate that it is.
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....what?
...what?
Did you just literally discount all possible negatives of your viewpoint by somehow claiming they are separate from the positives? And then try to throw that back in our faces by saying considering both the positives and the negatives is "confusing"your position?
Or do you truly believe the "free market" is a magical panacaea with no downsides whatsoever?
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Re: ....what?
Besides which point, of course, there's no free market in high-speed Internet in the US.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: Re: ....what?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
That's called zero rating, and it's a net neutrality violation.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
Makes it easy to mislead people into thinking its a free and open market like the person you responded to.
At least with AOL style internet no one is going to fall for that line of thinking.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
"I have offered plenty, but the mantra for you guys is to always advance the lie that I never have..."
Oh you have? Hang on, let me go look that up by searching under your user name....
Oh wow, you have made a lot of posts! Very inconsistent positions though. Some very smart posts, some very stupid ones. Almost like you're not actually one person...
"Okay another lie, the constant mantra is "free-market bad" and you know it..."
No TD writer and very few regular commenters have made this simplistic claim. A totally unfettered, regulation-free market would be terrible. A government-controlled, heavily regulated market would also be very bad. History has proven both of these points well, which is why we want a sensible middle ground that maximises the net benefit to society. Nobody here is interested in anarchists or authoritarians.
"You cannot say you are vigilant about liberty in the same breath your actions lead to giving it up."
This is why it's hard to believe you have a clue what you're talking about. We're arguing about regulations that curtail bad behavior by ISP's and do nothing else. The public are not losing any freedoms here; these are popular, functioning consumer protections that you want to kill. Why would anyone want that unless they have a vested interest in those who would directly benefit from it?
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reddit readers love this post.
Thanks, though, for confirming that anti-NN is being driven by folks who believe in the uber-piracy bogeyman, which NN never promised.
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Re: Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
In other words, there's a robust free market because the government intervened.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
I hae lots and "Lots" of Suggestions! yOU Sycophantic Idiots!Q
Every nation eats the Paint chips it Deserves!
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Except we actually already have a law preventing exactly what you say. The FCC cannot change the rules on a whim. The Supreme Court ruled on exactly that point in the Brand X case, that "arbitrary and capricious" changes are not allowed. The FCC has to back up the reason for its change with great detail and evidence. It succeeded in doing that two years ago, but Pai hasn't shown what's changed in the intervening years. And that's why these new rules (or lack of rules) will almost certainly be tossed out by the DC Circuit sometime next year.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
This is the perfect example of what makes liberals (which I'm not using as a slur or in a derogatory manner because liberal is not a dirty word) have animosity towards capitalism and free markets. This is cronyism that is pretending to be capitalism, which it's not even very good at. It is not a result of the failure of free markets, it is the result of a failed privatization of a government monopoly.
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Oh, and for what it's worth, there are about 300 cities in the US over 100,000 people. Many of those are "suburb cities" located close to larger cities, such as around Southern California, New York, and South Florida.
See, we had a chat about the economics of it all the other day. Lexington is having a company do the work for about $770 per household on average. In your burg, that would mean shelling out between 30 and 35 million just to enter the game - to get your 15k clients. So they would be out of pocket just over $2000 per customer (assuming they get that many signups) which, amortized over 5 years at 5% (pretty low really) would run them $38 per month per subscriber, just to be in the game. That doesn't pay for actual or ongoing service, it just pays to build out the network to even start.
With numbers like that, nobody is lining up to play. Google tried, figured it out pretty quickly, and have basically tucked their tail between their legs and run away.
For Incumbent players, with declining revenues from cable TV and landline phones, they don't have the space to turn around and spend that level of money for the return. So you are sort of stuck in a holding pattern.
Good luck with it. Net Neutrality or not, it's doubtful your service will get any better any time soon.
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6-3 ruling in favor of the FCC.
In fact, a good summary I am reading to get up speed included this passage:
"While, as noted above, the Supreme Court expressly did not reach the question of how broadband services other than cable modem services should be classified and regulated, the opinion strongly suggests that all such services should be classified in a similar fashion and should be minimally regulated. "
https://www.wileyrein.com/newsroom-pressreleases-161.html
Let's just say that it seems to give the FCC an incredibly huge amount of leeway to operate in.
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With numbers like that, nobody is lining up to play. Google tried, figured it out pretty quickly, and have basically tucked their tail between their legs and run away.
You know, other than the company that is willing to step up in the very example you use because clearly they do think they stand to make a profit.
As for Google I'm sure that had absolutely nothing to do with the current players suing left and right to prevent them from entering the market, no, clearly that was all about how expensive it is to do so, which again, has nothing whatsoever to do with the current companies buying laws to keep competition out.
If only there was some large, well funded organization that could shoulder the costs to upgrade/create such networks. One that is responsible for upgrades and maintenance for other utilities, and that doesn't have to worry about how profitable they are, where instead the focus is on providing people the necessary infrastructure for their needs.
One where people already pay into it for infrastructure creation/maintenance(among other things), and would likely jump at the chance to pay a little more if it meant an internet connection that actually worked, and didn't look at times like something you'd expect from some third world country while at the same time costing several times more than what people pay for in other countries.
If only such a group existed I imagine it might be able to handle rolling out such networks, providing people the infrastructure they needed just like other public service without having to worry about return on investment costs or projected quarterly profits.
Of course were such a completely hypothetical group to try I suspect that the current players in the field might object, perhaps by trying to claim that such a thing would never work, that it would be just a huge waste of money and people were better off sticking to what they had now, that doing so would create an 'unfair advantage' and 'unfairly compete' with them. Perhaps they would profess that they care just so much about the local taxpayers and their hard-earned money that they are just trying to protect them by preventing this hypothetical group from stepping in and wasting their money on something that could never work.
However, this is of course all mere speculation, as obviously no such group exists, and the current players in the market would never act in such a dishonest, self-serving fashion.
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unfortunately there's just so much regulatory capture in so many different counties and States, it's actually better to have the regulation in this case in the US.
...and this is coming from a guy that views "the power to regulate is the power to grant favors".
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Or laws.
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So no, I am quite comfortably living in a city that is at worst average and quite common and at best far above average in city size and population. And further, no, my city is not a suburb of another major city, we are the major city. Other cities are suburbs to us.
Google tried and succeeded in several cities until incumbent ISPs got scared (because it actually forced them to compete and raise speeds and drop prices in areas that Google came into, huh, go figure) and so they started suing Google and the cities to stop Google from coming in and dragging their feet on giving Google approval to move their equipment on the poles to make room for Google's.
What you are essentially saying then is that it's far too expensive to provide decent internet to any of America except for the elite larger cities (which amounts to less than 2% of all cities in the US) and if people don't like it then they should all move to the larger cities and shut up and stop complaining. Congratulations, you've just proved yourself to be a total elitist jerk who doesn't understand the first thing about the human race, economics, or America in general.
There are what? Three or four big cable companies in the US? Charter, Comcast, and COX? Ever notice how they almost never offer service to an area that is already served by a different cable provider? Same with DSL. You don't think that 35 million isn't a drop in the bucket for these corporations? Despite declining TV subscribers, they still make BILLIONS in revenue each year. That 35 million is just the initial rollout. After that they don't have to spend hardly anything, just sign up new customers and profit.
Finally, your last statement, I'm not looking for my service to get better (though gig speeds would be nice). My service is adequate for my needs. That wasn't my point about having only one provider. My point is, without net neutrality, if my provider decides to start jacking up my rates for no reason, implement low data caps, and throttle all my traffic other web browsing unless I pay higher monthly fees, I can't "vote with my wallet" because there is no other provider to vote for. In other words WE HAVE NO COMPETITION IN THE ISP MARKET.
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Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
You are right, and this is because of Net Neutrality rules. There have been attempts to take steps in such a direction but because we have these rules all of these attempts have failed.
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The world in general. Though, that's not surprising from this guy, who routinely creates his own reality to argue from. I'll argue from reality:
I live in an area with a population of around 20-30,000 people (technically 3 towns, but one overall municipal area) nowhere near a major city. Because I'm not in the US, we have effective regulation and consumer protection, which has made steps to improve internet availability in the area, in the last 5 years involving widespread installation of fibre optics.
At present, I am paying €65.40 (around $78) for 300Mb fibre, which includes unlimited national calls and limited free calls to mobile. I could up that to just over €100 to include both a mobile contract and TV, but I'm saving money by not requiring the TV package and using a competitor for my mobile, for whom there's at lest as many competitors (more if I don't want a contract). I can also switch to at least 3 other providers, and there's no data caps.
But, this is a European hellhole where the free market is dead and regulators have killed any competition and the US is doomed to follow if you don't destroy the net neutrality protections we enjoy at the same time. At least if you listen to these guys.
I can understand the logistics make it difficult for a truly national broadband program. But, to state that it's not possible in towns of over 100,000 people, and people should move to a different city if they're refused the services they request? These sycophants are either insane or so entrenched in a basement that they've never encountered another human being, let alone the way business and government work.
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The speed's noticeably lower than mine, of course, but the bill's not much different from the 10Mb ADSL they had installed before and it's plenty to just watch Netflix, etc. as most of them do.
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Re: Re: you guys have the 100% wrong take on net netrality
30% of US households have 0 providers
48% have one
19% have 2
3% have 3+
For 100/15 speeds, it's:
0: 55%
1: 35%
2: 9%
3+: 1%
The chart doesn't include whether that 2% of people with something resembling competition have higher-quality or lower prices.
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: FCC has officially done away with "net neutrality"
Arguing about vagueries and generalities, while we're trying to discuss specific actions that can occur right now and have an immediate effect.
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so what backlash?
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: whiners
(Chopping down a tree - or cutting wood in general - involves doing the same thing over and over, and eventually you get a different result.)
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Syringe filters
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music is the best
this website is amazing i like it so much
https://rozmusic.com
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